Earthquakes in OK

[chiguirre]

Remember the discussion of Oklahoma earthquakes we had several months ago:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/581554-8-earthquakes-in-3-days-or-why-im-glad-i-do-not-live-in-oklahoma/?hl=%2Boklahoma+%2Bearthquakes&do=findComment&comment=6759361

 

Today the USGS published its earthquake risk map and OK is as likely to suffer earthquake damage as CA.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/03/28/new-seismic-hazard-map-includes-fracking-related-quakes-for-the-first-time/?wpisrc=nl_rainbow

 

This has turned into a slow motion Deepwater Horizon for the fracking industry.

 

:grouphug: to the boardies who have to live with this threat in areas that don't have building codes or emergency preparedness for earthquakes.

[Farrar]

I know... let's pollute our groundwater and destabilize the earth's crust! That'll get us out of this energy crisis... for a few years! Brilliant thinking. Truly.  :glare:

[Scarlett]

We live east of Tulsa and so far felt very little. What a mess though.

 

I can't belive the outrage is not greater.

[lanabug]

It's rather ironic that these reports came out, and that very same night we had a 4.2 and a 4.1. I felt the first one, it was strong but very short. I slept through the second one.

 

We're not seeing much visible damage from earthquakes yet, but I'm concerned about the invisible damage that's being done to underground gas lines, slab foundations, etc.

 

Lana

[Happy]

 

I can't belive the outrage is not greater.

Can you say money?

 

I'm near Fort Worth where there has been a pocket of earthquakes happening in the last few years. Lots of people ARE outraged....but they don't seem to be heard over all the dollars pouring into pockets from those gas wells. No one wants to kill the golden goose.

[Guest]

The earthquake damage report is somewhat misleading - Oklahoma has terrible code compliance and almost no seismic design, which is the opposite of California. They have repeatedly refused to adopt more rigorous standards for plan review and applicable building codes, keeping it code minimum against advice to the contrary. The damage? Completely expected. And mitigatable, if not totally preventable, especially in buildings of the last 15-18 years.

 

I'm not opposed to fracking in any sense, but I am vehemently opposed to cheaping out on buildings and safety standards and then wondering why people die. It's like tornados being considered acts of God and acceptable loss for massive civil damage when a few small changes to the roof tiedowns and foundation anchors can massively increase the safety for civilians and survival of the structures. This isn't some mystery, or sme consequence that couldn't be fairly easily managed. It really drives me up the wall - and yet people who DO know better, like my friend in Tulsa who built herself another house in the last few years, still opt for the cheapest design possible instead of spending 5-15% more in initial construction to make a MUCH safer dwelling.

 

If insurance companies in OK started incentivizing and offering tax breaks for homes receiving a Fortified certification I think we would begin to see real progress made in safety. And city plan review would take the other side of safety in reducing damage and injury from earthquakes, tornados, and other stress events.

https://disastersafety.org/fortified/fortified-home/

 

/rant

Edited March 29, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Murphy101]

I'm feeling most of them. (Near Tulsa) but some of it I think is people just notice stuff and some people are amazingly oblivious to me.

 

Last night's caused me to fall out of bed. I guess I was sleeping way too close to the edge of the bed. One minute I'm asleep and the next it felt like the bed slid out from under me and I landed on the bedside trash can and my knitting bag. The left boob took a shiner for the team.

 

Thankfully the previous owners paid 40k for the house to have olshan come out so all I have to do is call them to adjust the piers. But the damage has accumulated to be a lot. Like one inch gaps along walls and separation of cabinets from corner walls. Cracked tiles in floors. One or two was no big deal. But the repeated accumulation has added up to the point that we are having to get some major adjustments done. And most no one out here has earthquake insurance.

 

So yeah, I for one am quite done with fracking.

[Murphy101]

My son was awake and at the gym working out 1.5 miles away and didn't feel a thing.

 

2 of my kids woke up a bit freaked out and the rest slept through it.

 

During the day is even worse. We had one a couple months ago where it felt like the entire house swayed for a second and I was "that was a heck of an earthquake." And half my kids were, "wow there's a strong breeze outside."

 

Lol

 

So basing it on whether people feel it is going to be haphazard. Same people same place might really notice it or be oblivious.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm not just outraged.  I'm FURIOUS.

We are doing things that cause the earth to be unstable.  So irresponsible!

And really, no one knows the extent of this with certainty.  These earthquakes might just be foreshocks for a coming Big One.  No one really understands this completely.

Blaming people for not building earthquake safe structures in, wait for it, non-earthquake prone areas is quite unfair.

 

I do oppose fracking.  It is an unacceptably risky procedure that is environmentally disasterous.

[Murphy101]

Frankly I think it's acceptable to most bc it's Oklahoma.

 

Us folks in the middle of the country out here have always been considered expendable by our government. It's always been hard to get resources brought to us, but sure is easy for them to be taken out.

 

I have no doubt the fracking will continue bc we don't have the population numbers to fight the much higher population numbers of the states who use most of the resource.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Murphy101

[Starr]

But do other states use the oil or is it shipped out?

 

[sbgrace]

Southwestern Indiana has some fracking. It scares me. The area already has some scary, historical and otherwise, natural faults, They have had natural earthquakes. Some of those areas have the kind of ground that liquifies (liquifaction is the term I think) during earthquakes.

 

I have family in the Evansville area. I am aghast anyone would think pumping stuff into the ground in that area is anything but foolish.

[Amira]

Blaming this on OK building codes isn't reasonable since the spike in earthquakes is less than 10 years old. While it's clear that OK needs to update its codes because of this spike, this only became apparent quite recently. Building codes can only address current risks (generally based on historical models) and even five years ago, OK had no reason to require building codes that could deal with earthquakes like this.

 

There really is no question that the increased number of earthquakes is caused by the effects of fracking and that is where the blame should lie.

 

Also, I agree that the low-population interior of the US often gets ignored because you have states with a large land area and a relatively low population.  Sometimes I wonder if it's time to rework senator allocation in the US Senate.  

Edited March 29, 2016 by Amira

[Murphy101]

But do other states use the oil or is it shipped out?

Lol

 

Yes, most certainly other states use the oil.

 

It's also hard to get hard numbers bc it takes a LOT of energy to get energy. So for example, some data tables will say that Oklahoma has a higher energy consumption than New York or Cali.

 

Now basic math says that just can't be right on a per person level.

 

But the problem is that it is adding in the use of energy to get the energy out of the ground. Literally it takes a tremendous amount of energy to do that. So it skews the numbers making it look like states such as North Dakota are consuming more energy than any of the high population states on either coast.

 

The truth is, most of that energy consumption is not by the general population of ND or OKLA. It's not me and my van. It's by the energy companies in their efforts to get more energy and transport that energy.

 

Even so, iirc, Oklahoma is the fifth largest producer of energy in the USA.

[Murphy101]

Also, it should be noted that Oklahoma does have fault lines and always has. I've lived here my entire life and knew this.

 

Since 1918, there have been occasional minor issues, very ocassional. Like every 40 years a tremor below 5 from the same one or two locales. Note this coincides almost directly with oil discovery in Oklahoma.

 

Because energy has been so integral to Oklahoma, since statehood we've had geological studies and geologist here.

 

There really is zero argument among any of them that the earthquakes are directly caused or at least most definitely severely aggravated, by various oil seeking methods.

[Murphy101]

And really building codes are a luxery of wealthy people buying new homes.

 

It's hard enough to find affordable housing, now we want to take homes that were built before the 1980s and many before the 1930s (which is like 60% of downtown Tulsa?) and demand they be brought up to earthquake standards?

 

Heh. Good luck with that.

 

People in charge of that would be the same folks that can't even keep their word about using tax monies for roads that have literally been under construction for over a decade.

[LucyStoner]

 

 

^^^ And that ladies and gentlemen is why!

 

Blaming Oklahoma (or North Dakota or other states with fracking) isn't accurate.  You can't zone your way out of the damage caused by earthquakes.  And no state should have to deal with tornados AND earthquakes!  

 

Conversely blaming only other states' demand for oil isn't accurate.  One, people living in states with fracking also use oil and like these low prices.  Two, states with fracking have enjoyed a large economic boom from the industry.  There are states which have banned fracking outright but some states decided that the economic benefits and other things made the risks of fracking worth it.  And I would argue that those risks were no great secret.  It's also not the states that have been fracking fault though as some were sold a bill of goods and tremendous pressure was put on some states to allow it, often states that needed a big jobs and financial boost.  

 

The average American family is saving between $500-600 a year on this cheaper gas.  And with many of us living with loss of income or stagnant income, who can blame people for appreciating that savings?  People were happy to have that money to direct towards other things.  Until this drop, I hadn't seen $2 gas for a dozen years.  We were paying up to $4 or more at times.  This drop has saved us at least $45-60 a month.  

 

Still, we are ALL selling our environment and compromising human safety for a short term, exhaustible supply of oil.  

 

We generally suck at thinking long term.  As evidenced by people buying more and more cars with low gas mileage last year than when gas was more expensive.  Like it's not going to go back up?  So when given this opportunity, some people (not all but enough) were like, oh, good jobs!  Oh, good, less foreign oil!  Oh, good, lower prices!

 

Anyways, I do support a ban on fracking.  

 

Sometimes we do have to save ourselves...from ourselves.  Fracking was an easy answer to a complex energy issue and it's being done for short term profits and savings at the expense of things we sorta need to keep in good shape for ourselves and our children and their grandchildren.  

 

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Murphy101]

Oh I don't think all the blame is on other states' consumption, but it sure is a major factor.

 

Our consumption alone wouldn't make it worth the trouble.

 

And yes, there's big money in it, but people would be surprised how little of that the average citizen in these states sees a benefit from.

 

ETA: otherwise I agree with you. 🙂

Edited March 29, 2016 by Murphy101

[Spryte]

When NY was in the throes of debating fracking, there were tons of companies bombarding landowners in our area with tales of how rich they could be...we owned some land and got calls weekly asking us to join the fight for fracking. It was very sad, because it's easy to see how these poverty level, basically undereducated people with lots of land but little else could be swayed by the fracking companies' lies.

My brother became wealthy working for Chesapeake. He told dozens of stories of dirty fracking fluids poisoning wells, killing cows who drank from contaminated creeks, etc. These companies know, they laugh at it. My brother did. It's all about greed.

My mom and her partner have been offered an obscene amount of money by fracking companies. They have said a solid, "No," but there's no denying that the amount of money offered would have been wildly helpful. It was in the 7 figures. And they are not poverty level, or undereducated - it was still quite tempting to abandon their principles! I can see how families with land and little else could agree to it.

[Murphy101]

My mom and her partner have been offered an obscene amount of money by fracking companies. They have said a solid, "No," but there's no denying that the amount of money offered would have been wildly helpful. It was in the 7 figures. And they are not poverty level, or undereducated - it was still quite tempting to abandon their principles! I can see how families with land and little else could agree to it.

And there's legit concern that if they say no, somehow someway eminent domain in some form will say yes for them and leave them even worse off.

 

In some cases, people are shocked to discover that they own the land, but not rights to anything below it.

 

It happens a lot of people who are poor in all but land. They cannot afford to fight it and many people think they are foolish to do so bc it's viewed as a losing battle.

 

And yeah, the companies are supposed to minimize the damage and clean it up afterwards, but it's a joke and barely if at all enforced. And sometimes it just can't be fixed.

[chiguirre]

Frankly I think it's acceptable to most bc it's Oklahoma.

 

Us folks in the middle of the country out here have always been considered expendable by our government. It's always been hard to get resources brought to us, but sure is easy for them to be taken out.

 

I have no doubt the fracking will continue bc we don't have the population numbers to fight the much higher population numbers of the states who use most of the resource.

 

It seems to me that Oklahomans are considered expendable by their own state government. It was that government that denied that fracking was responsible for the rise in earthquakes. It was that government that blocked its own geologists from publishing their findings about the relative locations of earthquakes and waste water disposal sites until it was reported in the national press. It is that government that hasn't regulated fracking or made oil companies accountable. (It's that government that received an oil windfall when times were good.)

 

It was the Texas State Legislature that passed a law forbidding municipalities from banning fracking on their own. So Denton is just up the creek. Even when citizens organize at a local level to ban fracking, the state can come along and protect the industry that so many politicians are beholden to. So much for small d democracy!

 

ETA: Well crud!  I googled to make sure it was Denton that was the town with the fracking ban and came up with this at the top of the results:

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/mar/25/texas-oil-and-gas-regulator-dashes-army-corps-dril/

 

It turns out the Texas Railway Commission (who are also in charge of hydrocarbon production) is opposed to the Army Corps of Engineers' ban on fracking near a dam! Near a dam! What could go wrong?!?!? And it's not like the ACE is known for being too strict with its regulations...

Edited March 29, 2016 by chiguirre

[Murphy101]

It seems to me that Oklahomans are considered expendable by their own state government. It was that government that denied that fracking was responsible for the rise in earthquakes. It was that government that blocked its own geologists from publishing their findings about the relative locations of earthquakes and waste water disposal sites until it was reported in the national press. It is that government that hasn't regulated fracking or made oil companies accountable. (It's that government that received an oil windfall when times were good.)

 

It was the Texas State Legislature that passed a law forbidding municipalities from banning fracking on their own. So Denton is just up the creek. Even when citizens organize at a local level to ban fracking, the state can come along and protect the industry that so many politicians are beholden to. So much for small d democracy!

I completely agree. A whole lot of Oklahoma government is in the pockets of people who aren't Oklahomans and or don't care about anyone but their own wallets.

 

And windfall is interesting bc I assure you the general population didn't feel like they saw much of a windfall. There's been a lot of talk but little effective action about corruption and mismanagement of government finances. Some folks even got convictions but they never seem to deserve much jail time and they never seem to suffer too much financially for it.

 

It's frustrating.

 

And then when measures come up for vote on things like education and roads, the govt gets mad when they can't get citizens to vote to pass for things we all agree we need. Why? Because every time we vote for those things, it seems that's never where the money actually goes.

[Murphy101]

Lol

 

Never minding how antiquated it is that a railway commission is in charge of hydrocarbons.

 

I'm not 100% but I'm fairly certain they are no longer the primary users of hydrocarbons. Tho even if they were, giving the ones who use it the most the final say in how it is used is like handing over the till to the robber and expecting him to give a good accounting of how to use it.