Calculus I at community college or StateU ?

[amyx4]

I could use some help making a Calculus I decision. For this choice, imagine that tuition, schedules, commute are all not part of the decision.  

At home DS completed Alg I, Geometry and Alg II. He has taken College Algebra and Trig/Pre-Calc at the local CC as a DE student earning all A s so far.

He's a HS Junior and probably going to major in Engineering at the StateU. Though it might not be the same StateU that he could potentially take Calc I & II at, if that matters.

 

Please help me plan his Senior year:

1. Take Calc I at CC this summer and then Calc I again Fall'16 at StateU. Then Calc II spring at StateU during senior year, all as a DE student. So, he would enter StateU freshman year at Calc III

2. Take Calc I this summer, Calc II fall'16,  Calc III spring'17 of senior year. All at community college.  All Calc need for Engineering major would he completed at CC before freshman year at StateU.

3. Some other option that I'm not thinking of...

BTW I'm posting because he and I disagree on the next step.

[Janice in NJ]

Is the CC Calc I summer course crammed into 8 weeks? 

 

What does your son want to do? What are his reasons?

 

Please understand that some summer CC math courses are populated by students who normally  attend other universities but don't want their required math-course score to affect their GPA. IOW, the class can be populated by the disinterested. (Not ALWAYS but sometimes.)

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[Luckymama]

Are you certain the CC classes will be accepted by StateU for an entering freshman in engineering?

 

(For option 2)

Edited March 16, 2016 by Luckymama

[amyx4]

Yes, CC has an Engineering transfer agreement with closest StateU but I will be double/triple checking before registering.  

Yes, CC Calc I class is a 5 week summer session.

Edited March 16, 2016 by amyx4

[amyx4]

He would pick a third choice. Start Calc I in the fall at StateU. He thinks coming off of pre-calc at CC will have prepared him enough for Calc I

[JudoMom]

He would pick a third choice. Start Calc I in the fall at StateU. He thinks coming off of pre-calc at CC will have prepared him enough for Calc I

This is the choice I'd go with.

[shawthorne44]

I'd go for the first one.   Calc I is extremely important for an Engineering major.  The Calc I during the summer at the CC will be a survey course in comparison to the real calc. class in the fall at the state U.   The CC class will make the state U class in the fall more productive.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'd go for the first one. Calc I is extremely important for an Engineering major. The Calc I during the summer at the CC will be a survey course in comparison to the real calc. class in the fall at the state U. The CC class will make the state U class in the fall more productive.

 

I'm not sure the course would be a survey. It might move at a fast pace with little time for working problems or getting help. Some summer courses here run 4-5 days a week (instead of 2x week) and for longer class periods.

 

I'd probably go with Calc I in the fall either at CC or State U.

 

Ds took Calc I fall of senior year. He'd planned to take Calc II in spring but had a schedule conflict. He's doing Statistics instead. This has been good since it is a subject he didn't have experience with and also has a little lighter course spring of senior year. He may retake the Calc in college. The DE was not undertaken assuming it would transfer.

[FaithManor]

I would not want a five week calc course for an engineer. Calculus skills are the basis of engineering, and a cram course is less than ideal. If he struggles at all, it could set him up for a bad time in Calc 2.

 

I would have him take it in the fall at the state U.

[Janeway]

I am going to add another option. I think he should spend the summer doing a home school calculus program. Then, in the fall, take calculus 1, some place..CC or state U and calculus 2 in the spring. In the summer between freshman year of college and senior year of high school, he can take the calculus 3 then. Colleges will generally allow summer classes to not affect freshman scholarships. This would allow him to further his math study before taking calculus in college, without having to sit through calculus 1 lectures twice. AND, if he does end up with a summer class for calculus, it will be his last class, not his first. So if it falls short, it will not affect his ability to do the next class in the sequence because there is no next class.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Janeway

[Arcadia]

No idea but I found these free Marsden & Weinstein Calc I, Calc II and Calc III textbooks and study guides in PDF for self-ed. He could look over them after his precalc course at the CC ends.

 

http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~marsden/volume/Calculus/

[Cosmos]

He would pick a third choice. Start Calc I in the fall at StateU. He thinks coming off of pre-calc at CC will have prepared him enough for Calc I

 

It seems to me there are two issues:

 

1) take a course in the summer or not

2) go straight to Calc 1 at StateU or do some extra prep ahead of time

 

It sounds to me like he doesn't want to take summer school. And for a student who has probably already completed enough math for high school graduation and college admission, why should he have to? Yes, he should do more math next year, but why should he have to work over the summer unless he wants to?

 

On the second question, that's impossible for us to determine. Does the State U have a placement test for their Calc 1 class? That might help. If it seems he does need more prep before taking calculus, then there still several options that don't include working over the summer:

 

A: Precalc at StateU in fall, Calc1 at StateU in spring

B: review precalc at home in fall, Calc1 at StateU in spring

C: Calc 1 at CC in fall, Calc 2 at CC in spring (then probably retake calc 1 and/or 2 at State U freshman year)

Edited March 16, 2016 by Cosmos

[Janice in NJ]

I would NOT start with a 5-week Calc I class!! That class is designed for kids who took calc I, didn't like their grade (or flunked), and want to make a second attempt to get up the ramp before their course sequence gets too messed up. Everything is going to FLY by!

 

IMO, it's a bad idea for a student who wants to gain acceptance to an engineering program. Please don't do it. If you speak to the tenured profs in the department, I suspect they will agree. 

 

I would suggest that you start with this. Just have him read it. It's a nice warm-up to the subject.

 

The Hitchhiker's Guide to Calculus: Michael Spivak: 9780883858127: Amazon.com: Books

 http://www.amazon.com/Hitchhikers-Guide-Calculus-Michael-Spivak/dp/0883858126

 

Then check out Thinkwell's Calc (Burger) or the Great Courses Calc I series (Bruce Edwards). They are both great instructors who understand the college math sequence well. Have him work through either of them this summer on his own when his grade/GPA isn't on the line! Either will solidify his foundation and make it more likely he will experience success with Calc I and beyond. No guarantees. But having a sense of where you're going helps you pay more attention to the details the second time around.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

P.S.  I am also guessing that your ds took PreCalc last fall, so there would be 9 months between his PreCalc course and the uni calc class. That's a decent chunk of time. Also keep in mind that most kids who are following the engineering track have had an introduction to calculus (AP?) before they hit that Calc I class at the university. So if your son want to be a distinctive student (and I'm guessing he does; the grade in the class will influence his admission decision), I would recommend that he not start the class in the fall cold. Fiddling around with the subject ahead of time isn't a bad idea, and it's one of those foundations that benefits from being rock-solid. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[amy58103]

He would pick a third choice. Start Calc I in the fall at StateU. He thinks coming off of pre-calc at CC will have prepared him enough for Calc I

 

I would also go with this option.  Taking Calc I twice is overkill and I wouldn't want to cram Calc I into 5 weeks.

[Julie of KY]

I also would recommend against calculus as a 5 week summer course. Too much too fast - you just need time to process the information as well as work lots of problems etc.

[shawthorne44]

I'm not sure the course would be a survey. It might move at a fast pace with little time for working problems or getting help. Some summer courses here run 4-5 days a week (instead of 2x week) and for longer class periods.

 

I'd probably go with Calc I in the fall either at CC or State U.

 

Ds took Calc I fall of senior year. He'd planned to take Calc II in spring but had a schedule conflict. He's doing Statistics instead. This has been good since it is a subject he didn't have experience with and also has a little lighter course spring of senior year. He may retake the Calc in college. The DE was not undertaken assuming it would transfer.

 

Oh, I know they meet daily.    But, a CC Calc course won't be as in-depth as the state U class to begin with.   Plus, summer classes just don't go as in-depth as regular semester courses at the same place.  One reason I LOVED summer classes for the classes that were merely checking a box. 

 

[MarkT]

I am going to add another option. I think he should spend the summer doing a home school calculus program. Then, in the fall, take calculus 1, some place..CC or state U and calculus 2 in the spring. 

I agree that is what I was going to post.

 

Don't take the real Calc I class in the summer but also don't let the math brain idle.

In the fall class, he should have the time to fully understand the material and hopefully get an 'A'.

 

No rush.

[MarkT]

No idea but I found these free Marsden & Weinstein Calc I, Calc II and Calc III textbooks and study guides in PDF for self-ed. He could look over them after his precalc course at the CC ends.

 

http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~marsden/volume/Calculus/

Are these good books for self study or reference?  I have not heard of these authors before.

[Kathy in Richmond]

No idea but I found these free Marsden & Weinstein Calc I, Calc II and Calc III textbooks and study guides in PDF for self-ed. He could look over them after his precalc course at the CC ends.

 

http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~marsden/volume/Calculus/

Thank you for posting this!

 

Are these good books for self study or reference?  I have not heard of these authors before.

Marsden & Tromba's Vector Calculus is my favorite multivariable text, written with great style, elegance, theoretical depth, & with many interesting applications to the physical world. This is the same Marsden (he was a colleague of my PhD advisor) and I'd expect these texts to be good, too.

[Arcadia]

Are these good books for self study or reference? I have not heard of these authors before.

I only became aware of Marsden as an author because of Kathy in Richmond's recommendation. I was looking for texts with more applied examples and exercise problems to supplement AoPS for my kids without having to resort to using my old physics textbooks.

 

I am reading the texts (all 3) on my ipad pro so it is as comfortable as reading a book. My first impressions are that the black and white print is very pleasant, no distracting colors. The sections' exercises usually have some applied problems for example Kepler's law, ideal gas law. The exercises also have more than enough problems to build up confidence and speed.

 

All three volumes would be useful for reference or additional practice. Self study would depend on the person. Someone available to bounce questions off would be a nice to have, but not essential, for a student doing calculus for the first time.

 

ETA:

Marsden has passed away on 2010. Link is his Caltech page

http://www.cds.caltech.edu/%7Emarsden/

Weinstein is at UCB. Link is to his UCB page

https://math.berkeley.edu/~alanw/

 

Calculus Unlimited by Marsden & Weinstein PDF link

http://authors.library.caltech.edu/25054/1/CalcUnlimited.pdf

Edited March 17, 2016 by Arcadia

[Janice in NJ]

Hi,

 

 I also forgot to add this option for self-study (Although I'm guessing its referenced in the mega-math thread). Reputable and free. 

 

Single Variable Calculus | Mathematics | MIT OpenCourseWare

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01sc-single-variable-calculus-fall-2010/

 

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[amyx4]

Thanks so much for all the responses. (And the PM)  DS is happy that "my imaginary friends" agreed with Cal I in the fall.  He's taking Trig/precalc this semester but we're going to find something for him to do at home over the summer from all the suggestions listed here.

He's not opposed to summer classes because there can be reduced tuition at the CC but a couple of posters pointed out that he probably is better off using that time for classes not within his major.

And finally, thanks for mentioning the placement test at StateU. I hadn't thought of that and the DE information at StateU is not available till April.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Oh, I know they meet daily.    But, a CC Calc course won't be as in-depth as the state U class to begin with.   Plus, summer classes just don't go as in-depth as regular semester courses at the same place.  One reason I LOVED summer classes for the classes that were merely checking a box. 

 

 

It's been a great many years since I took a summer semester course.  When I did, the hours of in class time was about the same as a semester long course.  But I only had brief period of time in which to do homework, do research or write papers.

 

The pace will vary from school to school and course to course.  This might be something to gut through for a non-major course that won't be built upon.  Calculus is pretty fundamental to an engineer and doesn't really fall into the category of check the box for students who will need to rely on those skills for success in future courses.

[Joules]

He would pick a third choice. Start Calc I in the fall at StateU. He thinks coming off of pre-calc at CC will have prepared him enough for Calc I

 

I would go with this choice, too.  It may not be as true with so much AP now, but Calc I is a great place for freshman engineers to meet their cohort and make friends.  Study groups are a big part of surviving engineering.  I know quite a few from my days (as a student and teaching) that could have tested out, but chose to start at the beginning 

 

There are some Coursera Calc classes that he could skim through over the summer.  It would be useful to just watch the videos to become familiar with the concepts, even if he doesn't do any of the problems.

[Guest2]

My son only needed Calc 2, but he ran into engineering friends that had a difficulty switching from Calc 2 at CC for Calc 3 at university. It is better to the entire sequence Calc 1-3 at the same place seems to be the consensus I hear often.

[MarkT]

I would go with this choice, too.  It may not be as true with so much AP now, but Calc I is a great place for freshman engineers to meet their cohort and make friends.  Study groups are a big part of surviving engineering.  I know quite a few from my days (as a student and teaching) that could have tested out, but chose to start at the beginning 

 

Depends on where you go to college. The very elite schools probably have most students taking their Calc 1 course but at most colleges these days engineering students place into Calc 2 because of AP or DE.  

 

The pace will vary from school to school and course to course.  This might be something to gut through for a non-major course that won't be built upon.  Calculus is pretty fundamental to an engineer and doesn't really fall into the category of check the box for students who will need to rely on those skills for success in future courses.

 

In addition, if a summer intensive course covers in one day what a normal course covers in three or more meetings, consider what happens if the student misses just one day due to illness or other reasons, and there is little slack in the schedule to catch up.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Depends on where you go to college. The very elite schools probably have most students taking their Calc 1 course but at most colleges these days engineering students place into Calc 2 because of AP or DE.  

 

Do you have a reference for this?  I would agree that many (possibly even most) students accepted into engineering programs probably have taken Calculus I in high school.  I'm curious about how many then skip Calculus 1 in college.

 

There is a trend to not permit AP credit for courses that are fundamental majors courses.  I don't know to what extent that practice carries into the math for engineering.  I have seen a couple articles suggesting that students who have taken Calculus in high school aren't ready for Calculus 2 in college.  (I took a quick check at Purdue and while they do give credit for Calculus 1 for students who earned a 4-5 in Calculus AB or BC, the description of the equivalent course (Math 16500) says that the course is for students who had at least one semester of calculus in high school.  The the precept of this course is that the college students taking it have already taken at least some calculus.   

 

Michigan seems to give a math placement to all incoming engineering students.  The resulting recommendation is either strongly or tentatively recommended for Calculus or Math 105, which is a prep for Calculus course.  Their info online says that students recommended for Mat 105 have an "extremely low" chance at doing well in Calculus without the Math 105 course.  Students with AP credit may be able to move on to the next course in the sequence.  (Sounds like it rests mostly on the actual placement recommendation.)

 

I don't have time this morning to ponder all that is in this paper, but I did find an interesting attempt to analyze the value of the high school math sequence that has AP Calculus as its end goal.  http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/~joer/AP-Calculus.pdf

This is based in part on the Rush to Calculus paper that has been discussed here before.  

 

ETA:  Michigan and Texas A&M both have a placement process that uses a test or test and transcript review combination.  Both schools seem to be counseling strongly that students trust this placement rather than going off of the Calculus experience in high school.  I especially liked this FAQ on TAMU's page.

 

• Will taking MATH 150 delay my graduation? 

  Not being in the proper math course, thus not successfully completing your first math course, will delay your graduation.  MATH 150 represents one extra course; it should not delay graduation a whole semester. Proper placement in your first math course is paramount to success and degree completion in engineering.

It's also interesting to note that students have to take the placement test by May 22.  I don't know if that is an on campus test or not.  

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Sebastian (a lady)

[MarkT]

Do you have a reference for this?  I would agree that many (possibly even most) students accepted into engineering programs probably have taken Calculus I in high school.  I'm curious about how many then skip Calculus 1 in college.

 

There is a trend to not permit AP credit for courses that are fundamental majors courses.  I don't know to what extent that practice carries into the math for engineering.  I have seen a couple articles suggesting that students who have taken Calculus in high school aren't ready for Calculus 2 in college.  (I took a quick check at Purdue and while they do give credit for Calculus 1 for students who earned a 4-5 in Calculus AB or BC, the description of the equivalent course (Math 16500) says that the course is for students who had at least one semester of calculus in high school.  The the precept of this course is that the college students taking it have already taken at least some calculus.   

 

Michigan seems to give a math placement to all incoming engineering students.  The resulting recommendation is either strongly or tentatively recommended for Calculus or Math 105, which is a prep for Calculus course.  Their info online says that students recommended for Mat 105 have an "extremely low" chance at doing well in Calculus without the Math 105 course.  Students with AP credit may be able to move on to the next course in the sequence.  (Sounds like it rests mostly on the actual placement recommendation.)

 

 

Purdue and Michigan are in the elite schools!

 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate

 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering

 

I have a relative who took the AP Calculus exam and should have never wasted his money.  He struggled a fair amount with PreCalc and probably should have taken that over or College Algebra DE.  So I agree with too many folks taking this AP.

They encourage everybody to take APs these days. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by MarkT

[FaithManor]

Purdue and Michigan are in the elite schools!

 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate

 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering

 

I have a relative who took the AP Calculus exam and should have never wasted his money.  He struggled a fair amount with PreCalc and probably should have taken that over or College Algebra DE.  So I agree with too many folks taking this AP.

They encourage everybody to take APs these days. 

My boy at U of MI took the placement test and one thing he loved about it was that it was a far better written test than the ACT or SAT math sections so showed his skill level better. He did quite well on it. I talked with an admissions rep, and he said they went to the placement exam simply because they found they had a subset of kids scoring rather big on the ACT math because they were good at taking that kind of multiple choice exam, but then performed poorly in college pre-calc and calc 1, and another subset who didn't have a stellar math score, got placed in a lower level math, only to have the professor want the student bumped up to a higher level because as it turns out, the student was a good math student, just not a great timed/multiple choice test taker.

 

He tested higher than what his ACT math score would have placed him, and he has flourished in his math/comp sci courses.

 

For what it is worth, U of MI is tough school to get into, and sometimes it feels like Russian Roulette got played or black jack or they drew names out of a hat or something in order to decide who gets into the school. It isn't as bad as Cornell or an Ivy, but for a lot of people it does feel like it. I am sure ds got in based on his TARC participation, mentoring, team management, and 4-H/Science fair wins and not the typical grades, ACT/SAT, and AP stuff. The school was a reach for him. A colleague of dh's had a daughter apply and rejected. She had a higher GPA (ds was a 3.85 and she was a 4.3), only had two AP's and a Java first level certification with a 28/29 composite ACT because he froze every single time on the math, and no other DE. I will say he wrote a crazy amazing essay, and I have no idea what her writing skills were. Still, for all I know his name went into a hat, and he hit the lottery LOL.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Purdue and Michigan are in the elite schools!

 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate

 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering

 

I have a relative who took the AP Calculus exam and should have never wasted his money.  He struggled a fair amount with PreCalc and probably should have taken that over or College Algebra DE.  So I agree with too many folks taking this AP.

They encourage everybody to take APs these days. 

 

Ah, I was reading elite as extremely selective, not as a measure of the quality of the school.

 

Purdue has a 49% acceptance rate (though I'm not sure what it is for the engineering school; they admit by college).

Michigan is 26%.  I included it not as a comment on the quality of its engineering department, but because they had such a clear policy on math placement.

 

I was thinking of elite as schools with single digit acceptance rates or rates in the teens.  On reflection, I didn't really realize how selective Michigan is.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Sebastian (a lady)