Do you expect your children to care for you and never put you in a nursing home? (eldercare discussion)

[creekland]

Interestingly enough... I'm in the library today and am just listening in on an English class researching an Opposing Viewpoints research paper.  The loudest group (easiest to hear) is discussing Assisted Suicide's pros and cons.  What an interesting coincidence to overhear while I've been catching up on this thread!

 

(The student doing the paper is in favor of it.)

[Lanny]

I think that should depend upon the care needs of the elderly person. If they have Alzheimer's or some other serious problem, it can become difficult or impossible, for people who love them, to take care of them 24 hours a day. I think it should depend upon the Mental and Physical problems of the elderly person being cared for and the Mental and Physical health of the caregiver(s). .  My mother lived by herself for far too long, but it   would have been a battle to get her into some place where people could help her. She only got that during the last months of her life, much too late. 

[StephanieZ]

Yep, I sure hope one of my kids likes us well enough to want us with them instead of in a facility.

 

BUT, I expect to be able to fully fund as much hired help and purchased conveniences as could possibly be needed. I would NOT want caring for me to be a financial burden, and I will do all I can to minimize the other burdens . . . 

 

Dh and I won't willingly live in a facility, period. We'd off ourselves or hide somewhere in a cabin off the grid before letting that happen. Likewise, we'd never let each other be in a facility (long term) either . . . (A stint in rehab is one thing  . . . ) We'd help each other let go if it came to that. 

 

If something sudden happened that took away our ability to decide for ourselves (a sudden change of status due to stroke or similar), then I sure hope our kids respect our wishes and that our documents are adequate to prevent either of us being institutionalized. Either of us would much prefer death, which we've made clear. If we know what is coming, we'll plan accordingly to minimize the burden on our kids. We already have directives not to extend life (even via feeding or antibiotics or fluids) if we have a terminal disease, and we are updating those documents currently to include not extending life AT ALL if we have any progressive dementia (Alzheimers, etc.) at any stage.

 

Once we are on our way out, we plan to get on the express bus if we have any say about it.

 

If none of our kids like us well enough to keep us out of a facility, then I sure hope we get enough warning of declining health to do something drastic before we were placed in a facility. 

 

It's my worst nightmare to be in an institution away from loved ones. Shoot me now. 

 

So, yep, I expect my kids to step up. I did it for my mom. I would have done it for Dad if he'd needed it (died suddenly). 

[hornblower]

short answer: yes 

long answer: darn right you better.

But we're also getting physician assisted suicide implemented in the country & when I get to be too decrepit my dd has already assured me she'd use the same quality of life scale we use for pets & dispatch me if necessary. Kidding. I'm going to be doing advanced directives. No heroics. If no meaningful recovery & quality of life is severely compromised, take me to the beach, let me hear the waves, smell sea air & wet dogs, & send me on my way. 

If I'm just a crotchety, nosy and crazy dog lady and need help w/ groceries or errands or getting the dog groomed, then yeah, I expect the kids to help. 

Living in Vancouver, reality is that many people who own homes have adult kids living with them (in various arrangements of nanny suites, separate entrance suites etc). It's a sensible arrangement in a place where a tear down derelict shack of a house just sold for $2.48 million, after a bidding war put the price 80K over asking... I wouldn't be surprised at all if my kids never moved out, or moved out & came back. 

[Twolittleboys]

Not really. However, I do rather expect them to care for me up to a certain point. This might (but doesn't have to) include me living with one of them when older but still healthy enough not to need any actual care. I would expect them to pay (as far as possible and necessary) for a decent nursing home or whatever and it definitely includes regular visits, making sure the nursing home is well-run etc.

[heartlikealion]

There is something else that needs to be mentioned here which I think fits into the eldercare dynamic:  who in the family needs to be in control?

 

Adult children often act against their parents' wishes, particularly when they do not view their parents' wishes as realistic. For example, many of us have had friends whose parents moved from the chilly north to Florida.  All was well until the aging parent could no longer drive, needed help with doctors, etc.  Some adult children can orchestrate their lives to go to Florida for a week every month or two to accommodate the parent's needs.  Others cannot--particularly if the aging parent is not offering financial assistance for flights and rental cars.  Here is a case where families might intervene to move the aging parent closer to one of their adult children who can step into help more easily.

 

I have seen family dynamics where one sibling believes that he or she knows what is best for Mom or Dad and thus shoulders the responsibility.  On the one hand, this is great since someone is stepping to the plate.  In my own family though I have seen where the person on the ground does not want to discuss care for the parent with anyone else in the family, essentially ostracizing others for not participating in the day to day even if they have offered.  This may not be clear unless you know a control freak.  I have witnessed some ugly battles and was told to keep out since I was not involved in the day to day. 

 

My father in law declined over the course of a number of years and remained at home in part due to the graciousness of his church family.  I have a friend who utilizes a service where volunteers drive her to doctors and the groceries since she can no longer drive--and she wants time with her family to be pleasurable not filled with errands.  I have known families that did not want strangers  (like the aforementioned service) utilized because it appeared that the family was not doing its duty. 

 

There is no one answer here not only because of the variety of health situations and social service offerings but because of personalities and family dynamics.  I am grateful for this thread though because it led to a chat with my young adult son who says now that he'll have his aging parents move in with him.  But then he travels for a living so he sees how this can work to everyone's advantage.

 

Then wouldn't it be like living with no one half the time if he's gone all the time? Am I missing something?

 

 

[Jane in NC]

Then wouldn't it be like living with no one half the time if he's gone all the time? Am I missing something?

 

 

 

I think he is thinking about slowing down as opposed to being in need of 24 hour care.  This is probably because one of our good friends is in that position where she has lost her driver's license due to a vision issue but she is capable of living alone most of the time.  She utilizes a driving service for simple errands but really needs one of the kids with her at some of her specialist's appointments to serve as second ears and advocate.

 

Also, I think he is envisioning a spouse and children in the equation too.

 

After my son's first year of college, he did not return home immediately but went to the summer cottage of two elderly friends who needed his youthful energy and strength to get things opened up.  This couple lived independently but that does not imply that they were as independent as in their younger days. 

 

For many people, there are stages within aging.  I have a crazy 80 year old aunt who climbs a ladder to clean her gutters so obviously not everyone slows down at the same pace.

 

[heartlikealion]

I think he is thinking about slowing down as opposed to being in need of 24 hour care.  This is probably because one of our good friends is in that position where she has lost her driver's license due to a vision issue but she is capable of living alone most of the time.  She utilizes a driving service for simple errands but really needs one of the kids with her at some of her specialist's appointments to serve as second ears and advocate.

 

Also, I think he is envisioning a spouse and children in the equation too.

 

After my son's first year of college, he did not return home immediately but went to the summer cottage of two elderly friends who needed his youthful energy and strength to get things opened up.  This couple lived independently but that does not imply that they were as independent as in their younger days. 

 

For many people, there are stages within aging.  I have a crazy 80 year old aunt who climbs a ladder to clean her gutters so obviously not everyone slows down at the same pace.

 

 

Lol in that case (no offense) I think he should have a chat with his hypothetical family before putting anything in stone. You'll have to forgive me, I just saw a TV show about a family member moving in (but it was temporary between jobs) and it didn't go over well with one of the spouses that owned the home. I have no idea what kind of promises dh would make to his parents before/after getting married, but I can tell you if my MIL moved in I'd probably need to move out regardless of her level of needs. I think it's very sweet that he said that! I just think as far as the original topic is concerned, promises really can't/shouldn't be made.

Edited February 17, 2016 by heartlikealion

[creekland]

 I have a crazy 80 year old aunt who climbs a ladder to clean her gutters so obviously not everyone slows down at the same pace.

 

 

I'm content letting someone else clean the gutters now, so I suppose we all have our lines drawn differently.  I'm content letting others cook too - except for family recipe things that have to be done correctly.

[creekland]

Lol in that case (no offense) I think he should have a chat with his hypothetical family before putting anything in stone. You'll have to forgive me, I just saw a TV show about a family member moving in (but it was temporary between jobs) and it didn't go over well with one of the spouses that owned the home. I have no idea what kind of promises dh would make to his parents before/after getting married, but I can tell you if my MIL moved in I'd probably need to move out regardless of her level of needs. I think it's very sweet that he said that! I just think as far as the original topic is concerned, promises really can't/shouldn't be made.

 

We get around this by telling our boys we'll be arriving in our Class B motorhome (those are the small ones) and parking in their driveway.  When they want us to head to one of their brother's houses they will merely need to give us gas money.   :lol:   

 

(And that's all said jokingly.)

[Jane in NC]

Lol in that case (no offense) I think he should have a chat with his hypothetical family before putting anything in stone. You'll have to forgive me, I just saw a TV show about a family member moving in (but it was temporary between jobs) and it didn't go over well with one of the spouses that owned the home. I have no idea what kind of promises dh would make to his parents before/after getting married, but I can tell you if my MIL moved in I'd probably need to move out regardless of her level of needs. I think it's very sweet that he said that! I just think as far as the original topic is concerned, promises really can't/shouldn't be made.

 

Completely agreeing.  I am not banking on this!

 

That said, I do think that he has seen how our family culture works in how we care for family and elderly friends. When the married teachers in the family had a child, a group of us rallied to provide daycare until their summer break so that they did not have to pay for it. This involved travel for all of the caregivers. When my best friend's husband had a hip replacement and my friend had limited sick leave due to her own issues, I flew off to help with the driving and cooking.  Granted, none of these are situations requiring 24 hour care, but he is aware of how we assist when called upon. 

 

I would never expect him to provide 24 hour care and will do everything to insure that I have assets to pay for assisted living or home help. But even the lesser help, the week here or there, should not be taken for granted.  Not everyone has a child or friend who can come to the rescue. 

 

[MotherGoose]

 I do not expect my children to destroy their health, finances, and families to watch me die. 

Absolutely!  This is what I believe.  In "the past," make of that whatever you want, but people did not necessarily have these long, drawn-out deaths.  They lived or they died, and they did it at home, because there was no option.  Now, you can delay  your death for years, if you'd like.  I am not in favor of assisted suicide, but I am in favor of letting nature take its course. You cannot always know where medical intervention will help or hurt beforehand, though.  

[Reefgazer]

My expectation is that family will take care of family unless they are truly unable to do so despite conscientious effort.  I do not expect my kids to care for me if I have medical conditions that make that care darned near impossible (violent dementia, serious stoke that renders me incapacitated, etc).  I won't make a stink about it, but it is my expectation do whatever I need to do tpersonally/financially to care for my parents and children, and I would like the same dedication in return.

[PeacefulChaos]

You know, I posted earlier in the thread about this for me, but it's also an interesting discussion with parents in mind.

 

I was raised by my grandparents, who are currently in the second half of their 70s.  Their health is pretty good.  With them, my uncle lives in town, and would, I'm sure, be there to help make decisions if need be (both have full mental and physical - well, mostly - capacities, so that would be further down the line if something happened that diminished that for one or both of them).  I know he's the executor (sp?) of their will.  My great-grandmother (maternal, my grandma's mom) died when she was 92 and never left her home.  My great-grandfather (her husband) died 12 years earlier, after long bouts of something that had him hospitalized and unwell for several months.  I don't know much about my grandpa's parents.  

 

My mom never got to that point, either - she died at 51 at home.  Her death, like much of her life, is a bit of a question mark to me - I know it was the product of 40 years of alcoholism and other addictions, liver disease, a hiatal hernia, and lots of health problems.  
 

 

So the only people I keep thinking about are my ILs.  They're still relatively young - early 60s.

DH's paternal grandmother passed away after years of dementia when the boys were younger.  I never knew her before it.  She and his grandfather stayed at home for a long time, then moved in with one of their children and their family.  I distinctly remember one of them saying, 'Had I known in advance how bad it had gotten and how much care she needed, I don't know if I would have done it.'  Because it was a lot.  They moved her to a nursing home before she passed away.  

His grandfather then moved and went into one as well.  At first, he was pretty angry - 'Everyone just wants to be rid of me' type stuff.  He was probably around 88-90 at that point.  He was a bit grumpy about it.  But then, time passed, he made friends, he began to see how much they could do for him, and he had family there (we're a bit spread out or we all would have been there pretty often - as it was, I think he saw most of the family at least once a year, which isn't any less than he saw everyone when he lived in his own house) that came to see him every day.  He lived in nursing homes (GA and FL, moving states with his daughter and her husband, who were taking care of most of the immediate needs) until he passed in 2014.

DH's maternal grandfather I never knew - he died when he was a teenager.  Pretty sure he was never in a nursing home.

His maternal grandmother was in and out of the one we work at (between there and her son's home) until she passed in 2009.  I know she was there when she passed, because they couldn't get ahold of anyone else so they called DH.

 

But with his parents... I really don't know.  His dad insists that he does not want anyone taking care of him, as in any family members.  So he'd rather go in a nursing home if need be.  MIL says the same - when the one family member was talking about all the work, the assistance with toileting, etc, MIL turned to me and was like, 'Oh, please, I hope I'm gone before anything like that happens.'  She doesn't want any of us to have to do that for her, either.

So I guess it depends.  FIL had some heart issues last year, and I know that when DH went into the ER with him, he was telling him a bunch of stuff to make sure to get taken care of if he didn't make it out.  Which makes me think of a whole host of other issues, like power of attorney (is there an automatic on that if both parents aren't able?  The oldest child?  A consensus?  No one?) if it should ever be needed, and executors of wills, are those necessary?  Etc.  

I've planned a funeral but I know nothing about anything else.  Sounds so weird and backwards.

 

But anyway, at least right now, his parents are doing great.  I will admit that I often think that we need to buy enough land that we can build a small, separate 'guest house' that they can live in someday if need be (and if not, we'll use it for something else) with a garden she can work in, etc.  That would be a long way off, still, but it's something that comes to mind, just in case they get to the point where their big house on 5 acres isn't practical for them anymore but they aren't ready or don't need/want to go into the independent living apartments at the retirement facility.  

If it comes to some serious healthcare, I don't think I could do it - I'm just being honest.  And I know them and love them (and it's mutual lol), and I think that feeling is mutual, too.  But something where they just needed a place to live, someone around - we could do that.  But I can't share a kitchen.  We've done that before.  :lol:  That's why they'd have their own little house.  :D  :lol: :lol: