White fragility

[MaeFlowers]

 

What underlies it is that the system interacts with African Americans, by and large, as a group. There are aspects of life that are literally dangerous to my sense of safety if I don't fundamentally understand this fact. I'm not willing to risk my safety in order to make anyone feel good about "race doesn't matter." If I have to communicate some hard truths that you (not personally YOU) have never confronted and that makes you feel uncomfortable or sends you into disequilibrium, then it is what it is. But I'm still not going to pretend that the cops are not more likely to stop me than you, I'm still going to mitigate both actual and possible bias by presenting myself in a certain way, and I'm still going to teach my children certain "truths" that perhaps you have the privilege of never having to think about. Is that bad? Hmm... let me ponder that, but I'm going to ponder that and still do what I "gotta do" (there's something to Biblical maxim: "WATCH...and pray.")

 

nm

Edited December 8, 2015 by MaeFlowers

[bibiche]

nm

 

I'm sorry you deleted your comment and questions.  I thought they were legitimate and well-put and demonstrated a desire to engage in dialogue. Engaging is most certainly NOT white fragility.  To touch briefly on what you said in terms of wondering if making children aware that black people aren't treated equally does not perpetuate problems in race relations, I know that in my family my nephew has been taught first and foremost how to be SAFE.  As in, how to stay alive.  

 

He has never been told that he can't achieve things, but he has been told that there is prejudice in the world and that fair or not, he might have to work harder to achieve his goals. That's just the reality, and this knowledge is to help him to not internalize failure and not think there is something intrinsically wrong with him, but realize that there is something intrinsically wrong with society as it relates to being a young black male.  

 

We can try to relate our experiences as females in a male-dominated society, but it is still not the same. Maybe if we were in another part of the world it woudl be a more accurate comparison, but in the US I don't think it is an equivalent experience.

[Carrie12345]

I'm sorry you deleted your comment and questions.  I thought they were legitimate and well-put and demonstrated a desire to engage in dialogue. Engaging is most certainly NOT white fragility.  To touch briefly on what you said in terms of wondering if making children aware that black people aren't treated equally does not perpetuate problems in race relations, I know that in my family my nephew has been taught first and foremost how to be SAFE.  As in, how to stay alive.  

 

He has never been told that he can't achieve things, but he has been told that there is prejudice in the world and that fair or not, he might have to work harder to achieve his goals. That's just the reality, and this knowledge is to help him to not internalize failure and not think there is something intrinsically wrong with him, but realize that there is something intrinsically wrong with society as it relates to being a young black male.  

 

We can try to relate our experiences as females in a male-dominated society, but it is still not the same. Maybe if we were in another part of the world it woudl be a more accurate comparison, but in the US I don't think it is an equivalent experience.

 

I didn't get to see the original question, but I think I get the gist.

 

I used to be of the mind that it would be "better" if my white kids didn't know the extent of today's race issues.  Why put ideas in their heads and all.  I quickly changed my mind and realized they needed to be aware of things their friends were experiencing as they grew up.

 

I can say that I do have some concerns with my daughters.  These days, I'm trying to figure out how to "make up" for almost completely covering up the realities of gender issues for more than a decade.  While I'm proud to have instilled confidence and beliefs that they are equal, I haven't taught them how to handle the reality of a patriarchal society.  Pretending we're beyond that can't be a long term solution.

 

Progress isn't going to come from keeping kids ignorant.

 

ETA:  That isn't so much to compare gender to race, but more about shoving things under rugs.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Carrie12345

[SKL]

About sheltering kids.  I had a black friend from Atlanta - actually we met while I was trying to recruit for a job in a large, white-male-dominated professional services company.  She would have been a great catch (very educated and energetic), but she took another job, partly because she was worried about my firm's track record with black professionals.  (Must have been the way my boss told her she was "very articulate.")  Anyway, our personalities meshed and we would go out for dinner and stuff.  She was a bubbly person and not shy to share with me about her racial experiences.

 

Her mom had sent her to all-black schools in Atlanta, partly to shelter her from the attitude that she should be limited because of her skin color.  She had a great childhood and developed great self esteem.  Then when she went out into the bigger world as an adult, she was truly shocked.  Mostly about the assumption that she must be dumber than all the white people, maybe lazier too.  She would laugh and say, "I have three strikes against me - I'm female, black, and fat.  It can take a lot to get people to see beyond that."  As an adult she had to digest what most of her peers had already gotten used to.  It was hard.

 

She wasn't sure whether her early sheltering was better or worse.  I tend to think that on balance, it was a good thing to let her develop into herself without the world telling her she was less.  It was a given that she would go to college and grad school and join the profession that suited her best.  Would that have been the case in an integrated southern school?  She might have still done it, but it might not have been as easy to visualize.  Though I could be wrong.

 

Either way, it's going to be a whole extra layer of challenge as a parent of a child of color.  Raising my brown-skinned kids, I often debate this with myself on a smaller scale.  They do go to a school where brown skin is the minority, but so far they don't seem to have been marginalized.

 

(FTR I did not have a fragility issue with this discussion, LOL.  I do have to admit that that was the first time I realized how the word "articulate" can be a microaggression.  Not that I ever went around calling anyone "articulate.")

Edited December 8, 2015 by SKL

[MaeFlowers]

I'm sorry you deleted your comment and questions.  I thought they were legitimate and well-put and demonstrated a desire to engage in dialogue. Engaging is most certainly NOT white fragility.  To touch briefly on what you said in terms of wondering if making children aware that black people aren't treated equally does not perpetuate problems in race relations, I know that in my family my nephew has been taught first and foremost how to be SAFE.  As in, how to stay alive.  

 

He has never been told that he can't achieve things, but he has been told that there is prejudice in the world and that fair or not, he might have to work harder to achieve his goals. That's just the reality, and this knowledge is to help him to not internalize failure and not think there is something intrinsically wrong with him, but realize that there is something intrinsically wrong with society as it relates to being a young black male.  

 

We can try to relate our experiences as females in a male-dominated society, but it is still not the same. Maybe if we were in another part of the world it woudl be a more accurate comparison, but in the US I don't think it is an equivalent experience.

 

 

 

I didn't get to see the original question, but I think I get the gist.

 

I used to be of the mind that it would be "better" if my white kids didn't know the extent of today's race issues.  Why put ideas in their heads and all.  I quickly changed my mind and realized they needed to be aware of things their friends were experiencing as they grew up.

 

I can say that I do have some concerns with my daughters.  These days, I'm trying to figure out how to "make up" for almost completely covering up the realities of gender issues for more than a decade.  While I'm proud to have instilled confidence and beliefs that they are equal, I haven't taught them how to handle the reality of a patriarchal society.  Pretending we're beyond that can't be a long term solution.

 

Progress isn't going to come from keeping kids ignorant.

 

ETA:  That isn't so much to compare gender to race, but more about shoving things under rugs.

 

I deleted my original post because I was afraid my intent would be misunderstood because I am not always the best at expressing myself.

 

I want to say that I don't think things should be pushed under the rug. I understand (to some degree) why the dialogue happens but I can't help but wonder that if as kids we don't internalize things in ways other than they are intended. If someone says to a child, "Some people don't like black people or women." then a child still might internalize it as something being wrong with them. I know, of course, that the conversations are more in depth than this, but I still wonder. I think America has created a narrative in terms of race relations and it has been long standing and repetitive. Laws haven't changed racism. They have only suppressed the action and I think that is why we have seen the upsurge in violence this past year. I think we need a new narrative and to get there we need genuine dialogue.

 

ETA: I used the example of the female experience only because it was the best one I personally have, not to equate the two.

Edited December 8, 2015 by MaeFlowers

[Sneezyone]

I deleted my original post because I was afraid my intent would be misunderstood because I am not always the best at expressing myself.

 

I want to say that I don't think things should be pushed under the rug. I understand (to some degree) why the dialogue happens but I can't help but wonder that if as kids we don't internalize things in ways other than they are intended. If someone says to a child, "Some people don't like black people or women." then a child still might internalize it as something being wrong with them. I know, of course, that the conversations are more in depth than this, but I still wonder. I think America has created a narrative in terms of race relations and it has been long standing and repetitive. Laws haven't changed racism. They have only suppressed the action and I think that is why we have seen the upsurge in violence this past year. I think we need a new narrative and to get there we need genuine dialogue.

 

ETA: I used the example of the female experience only because it was the best one I personally have, not to equate the two.

 

It is not at all safe to assume that children do not perceive these issues long before a parent says a word. Kids know. My son, at 4, had already internalized that the other kids perceived him as different. He's a watcher, an observer, and was attuned to nuance in their behavior and speech. He came to me upset and wanted an explanation as to why he was being treated as if he were invisible or stupid. For me, I was sheltered, and my wake up call came in 7th/8th grade when the sleepover invites dried up. Kids aren't stupid. I have for my kids, as my parents did for me, given them a framework for understanding what they already see/experience.

 

ETA: That said, our experiences in the islands and overseas have been very different. And to the extent that we can choose to raise our kids in those environments (sheltering them from the worst hurts) we do. I do think it's important to build up their self esteem and allow them to be their full selves without fear.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Sneezyone

[MaeFlowers]

It is not at all safe to assume that children do not perceive these issues long before a parent says a word. Kids know. My son, at 4, had already internalized that the other kids perceived him as different. He's a watcher, an observer, and was attuned to nuance in their behavior and speech. He came to me upset and wanted an explanation as to why he was being treated as if he were invisible or stupid. For me, I was sheltered, and my wake up call came in 7th/8th grade when the sleepover invites dried up. Kids aren't stupid. I have for my kids, as my parents did for me, given them a framework for understanding what they already see/experience.

 

ETA: That said, our experiences in the islands and overseas have been very different. And to the extent that we can choose to raise our kids in those environments (sheltering them from the worst hurts) we do. I do think it's important to build up their self esteem and allow them to be their full selves without fear.

 

Thank you for posting this. I had no put much thought to non-verbal communications kids might pick up on.

 

I'm curious. What is different about the islands and areas overseas? Or, more specifically, why do you think those areas are different?

[Sneezyone]

Thank you for posting this. I had no put much thought to non-verbal communications kids might pick up on.

 

I'm curious. What is different about the islands and areas overseas? Or, more specifically, why do you think those areas are different?

 

Oh man, where do I begin?

 

- We're not considered threats.

- Local people make eye contact with us.

- If we needed a cab, one would stop.

- The islands are full of brown-skinned people (of a variety of ethnicities and blends) so we don't stand out.

- Profiling is based primarily on age and behavior.

- I don't need to dress up to be treated with respect in stores.

- People are friendly and genuinely interested in us, not to ask us to attend their church, just to converse.

- The locals are huggers, even when they barely know you.

- When my older girl joined the new gym, the girls welcomed her from day one.

- DD's teammates think to include her in last-minute fun.

- Neighborhood kids invite mine to play and adults let their kids come to my house whenever. In other places, I had to take my child to play; other kids never came to our home despite invites.

- On any given day, you may see an LEO speaking to someone they've pulled over or outside of a store and they will just stand there talking story, even if the person is upset. My son was stopped by an officer who just wanted to show him how to make a shaka sign, for ex.

 

The history of Hawaii's annexation and statehood and ethnic make up is very different. The vibe in the islands is very different. I have had many conversations with white people who get sent here who are VERY uncomfortable. They have no sense that the feeling they're describing is the one many people here live with day-in, day-out, on the mainland. To me, that is a quintessential example of fragility. Not being able to deal with being in the minority for any length of time and being treated as part of a less desirable group.

 

A friend recently told me, without a hint of self-consciousness or irony, "Oh well, I told my DD that if no one's super nice to her, it's OK. She'll always be tall and blond and everyone wants to be her." Umm, no, the people here do not want to be her and that is a major source of discomfort.

 

As for being overseas, it is similar. We may not speak the language everywhere we go, but we are not treated with the same level of suspicion as we are on the mainland. That kind of freedom, it's like a weight is lifted. Every black person you meet here, truly, has the same sort of response. Guam, Japan and Okinawa have a similar vibe. I have one cousin who, having chosen to homestead in Korea, moved to the Philippines and never came back.

 

It's hard to explain but the feel is very, very different.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Sneezyone

[Lb20inblue]

Sneezyone, you are so right about the weight being lifted. This is why our family save money to take a trip to west Africa every year. The freedom to be able to belong just because is so awesome.

[Sneezyone]

Sneezyone, you are so right about the weight being lifted. This is why our family save money to take a trip to west Africa every year. The freedom to be able to belong just because is so awesome.

 

We are looking to make a west Africa trip in the next 18 months with our kids so please feel free to send me a PM with recommendations!

[SKL]

Interesting, weighing the value/cost of diversity from the perspective of the minority group(s).  I know my kids seem to be in a more relaxed state when they are in a group of people "like them," which isn't very often.

[Slojo]

I think people without privileged can probably decide to accept or reject it as well.  Of all people, I am not an individualist, and would clim that identity is not constructed.  But you can't and shouldn't reduce people to that.  If you do, it is ultimately going to be fair game for everyone, whether we are women or black or Muslims or whatever - we will also be understood s limited by our identity, our class, our perspective - "not that it is anyone's fault, you know, those X people just can't get beyond the limitations of identity, they don't even know they re there, when they say they aren't that shows us how limited they are."

 

It just totally disgusts me.  People wonder where the Trumps of the world come from - well, it isn't just from the right.

I don't think it is reductionist to attempt to describe behaviors if those behaviors actually exist. What would be reductionist would be to ascribe immutable characteristics to a group of people. But as I read it, every single one of the behaviors described: a) don't apply to all white people (in this case), and b) aren't characterized as being immutable, inborn characteristics from which white people are incapable of escape. There is nothing in my reading of "white fragility" (and, again I'm not attached to the phrase itself) to suggest otherwise. And, for the record, I'm fine with you rejecting the concept. I am not fine with one suggesting that if I do see systemic patterns of discrimination and identify with the collective identity of black folk  that that should be put up against another person's reality of "not seeing." As I said, not everything is about race, but when it is, it just is, and I'm not interested in making another person's discomfort, inability to see or dismissal of my reality as "delusional" the standard. That's just a mental breakdown in the making. If you are interested in understanding, great. If not, then "How's the weather, and could you please pass the bean dip?" 

 

IMO you are talking about two different things here.  I never said or implied that I don't have a responsibility (or a desire) to act to improve the situation that exists.  My saying "I did not cause this" does not equal "this is not my problem."  But talk to me as a mutually respected willing partner, not a transgressor who owes restitution.  And while I'm saying "I," I'm sure the tone [of the article] has a similar effect on others too.  It does not inspire.  If the goal is to encourage white folks to do more, it misses the mark.

 

SKL, I'm sure you don't mean this, but, honestly, my sense of humanity is not dependent on "white people's inspiration." The article rankled - okay, but what does that have to do with how you come to a sense of responsibility to do what you can to improve a situation that exists? I think the answer to that is that it doesn't (for which I'm glad). If you have a different vision for what can and should happen to end racial inequality, I have no problem with that (though I reserve the right to disagree). You've been around these boards for a while, and have often expressed this notion that, to me, feels like black people (at least those "complaining" ones) have to "earn your inspiration" or need to just drop their delusions (I can footnote, if you'd like) -- that's bunk. 

I'm sorry you deleted your comment and questions.  I thought they were legitimate and well-put and demonstrated a desire to engage in dialogue. Engaging is most certainly NOT white fragility.  To touch briefly on what you said in terms of wondering if making children aware that black people aren't treated equally does not perpetuate problems in race relations, I know that in my family my nephew has been taught first and foremost how to be SAFE.  As in, how to stay alive.  

 

He has never been told that he can't achieve things, but he has been told that there is prejudice in the world and that fair or not, he might have to work harder to achieve his goals. That's just the reality, and this knowledge is to help him to not internalize failure and not think there is something intrinsically wrong with him, but realize that there is something intrinsically wrong with society as it relates to being a young black male.  

 

We can try to relate our experiences as females in a male-dominated society, but it is still not the same. Maybe if we were in another part of the world it woudl be a more accurate comparison, but in the US I don't think it is an equivalent experience.

 

I agree - your question sounds reasonable. I think we all have experiences where our kids just know more about how the world works, earlier and with more complexity, than we ever imagined they would.  My kids are actually relatively sheltered -- their class status and parents' professional world, and, their young age (my oldest is 10) mitigates much. There is very little of the world that they really negotiate without our having done something to have supported them in it, inclusive of our decision to homeschool. I don't fundamentally believe in my kids being in an all-day environment that undervalues or underestimates their character or intellect (What's the point of that? We do not ask that "sacrifice" of white children) -- and while there are positive schools for black boys, let's just say that the educational project that is the vast majority of schools underwhelms in this category. 

 

But they are quickly moving to negotiating much more of the world on their own, and world which too often underestimates their character and intellect -- but they will enter that world both equipped with some framework for understanding this, and equipped with a strong sense of self. Probably, at this stage, they have a kind of "what's wrong with you, buddy" sense of discrimination. They don't understand what would motivate people to discriminate or "be mean." They are 10 and 8 - structural stuff is a bit abstract, right now. But we still discuss things - they hear, they see. I don't believe in staying silent on what they hear and see. They are multi-dimensional beings, and they deserve to be told the full truth in a developmentally supportive environment. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Slojo

[SKL]

You've been around these boards for a while, and have often expressed this notion that, to me, feels like black people (at least those "complaining" ones) have to "earn your inspiration" or need to just drop their delusions (I can footnote, if you'd like) -- that's bunk. 

 

Yes, please footnote the "delusions" quote so that it will be clear that you are misrepresenting my point.

 

I said Metta is deluded if he thinks white people don't believe racism and racial inequality exist.  You are twisting it to sort of smear me here.  I get that you assume I'm racist and you're going to read everything I write that way, but don't misquote me.

 

I don't think black people have to earn my anything.  Usually people write papers on racism to get people to do better, but if the intent of the linked article (in the OP) was just to rankle people, that's fine.  BTW I am aware the author is white, so I don't see how that translates into me expecting black people to inspire me.

 

You don't know my personal history with racial situations and whether I'm part of the problem or part of the solution in the actual world.

Edited December 9, 2015 by SKL

[Slojo]

Yes, please footnote the "delusions" quote so that it will be clear that you are misrepresenting my point.

 

I said Metta is deluded if he thinks white people don't believe racism and racial inequality exist.  You are twisting it to sort of smear me here.  I get that you assume I'm racist and you're going to read everything I write that way, but don't misquote me.

 

I don't think black people have to earn my anything.  Usually people write papers on racism to get people to do better, but if the intent of the linked article (in the OP) was just to rankle people, that's fine.  BTW I am aware the author is white, so I don't see how that translates into me expecting black people to inspire me.

 

You don't know my personal history with racial situations and whether I'm part of the problem or part of the solution in the actual world.

Actually, I don't have enough information about you personally to make an assessment that you are racist. I've said as much before. That's actually far too easy -- that gets into "Jedi-like" states of mind about your inner consciousness that aren't worth the time. You should reference the Jay Smooth piece on "what you did" versus "what you are." I make no such statements about "what you are" except that you are human. What you did/said/insinuated, IS up for my interpretation, and probably my judgment (as is the case in the reverse). I'm actually not particularly interested in the individual racism of someone online (that's between you and God) - remember, I'm "all about structural racism ;-)!" I assume you are very much in the vein of my lovely SIL who "just doesn't see race" though she doesn't argue the point, she's a love and roses kind of person -- so in that, yes, my experience of you is that you are quite a bit more argumentative, at least in your online persona.  Who knows, in real life, maybe we'd think each other were awesome!  I don't have these discussions, in this way, in real life, except with white allies who tend to see the world as I do.  

 

I do think you hold a certain antipathy towards many of my stated ideas -- they don't work for you. Fine - I'm okay existing in a world where not everyone agrees with me. I do think that the racial project of this country troubles you (as it does me), and that we diverge on just what constitutes "trouble-making." I've noticed that you "pop up" quite often on these threads with "a beef" (at least as I see it).

 

There's been some asinine, racialized comments on many a thread on TWTM (not necessarily from you) -- and I'm not really one to back down from pointing out ridiculous racial reasoning (like "where's Obama's resume/college transcript" thread OR "the clock boy" thread OR the thread insinuating that a 12 year old playing with a toy gun in an open carry state, nonetheless, was responsible for his own murder, on and on. Not going to let those slide. It's all good -- we're both entitled to our opinions and our passions. I get frustrated with many of your posts, but I hold no personal antipathy. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Slojo

[MaeFlowers]

Oh man, where do I begin?

 

- We're not considered threats.

- Local people make eye contact with us.

- If we needed a cab, one would stop.

- The islands are full of brown-skinned people (of a variety of ethnicities and blends) so we don't stand out.

- Profiling is based primarily on age and behavior.

- I don't need to dress up to be treated with respect in stores.

- People are friendly and genuinely interested in us, not to ask us to attend their church, just to converse.

- The locals are huggers, even when they barely know you.

- When my older girl joined the new gym, the girls welcomed her from day one.

- DD's teammates think to include her in last-minute fun.

- Neighborhood kids invite mine to play and adults let their kids come to my house whenever. In other places, I had to take my child to play; other kids never came to our home despite invites.

- On any given day, you may see an LEO speaking to someone they've pulled over or outside of a store and they will just stand there talking story, even if the person is upset. My son was stopped by an officer who just wanted to show him how to make a shaka sign, for ex.

 

The history of Hawaii's annexation and statehood and ethnic make up is very different. The vibe in the islands is very different. I have had many conversations with white people who get sent here who are VERY uncomfortable. They have no sense that the feeling they're describing is the one many people here live with day-in, day-out, on the mainland. To me, that is a quintessential example of fragility. Not being able to deal with being in the minority for any length of time and being treated as part of a less desirable group.

 

A friend recently told me, without a hint of self-consciousness or irony, "Oh well, I told my DD that if no one's super nice to her, it's OK. She'll always be tall and blond and everyone wants to be her." Umm, no, the people here do not want to be her and that is a major source of discomfort.

 

As for being overseas, it is similar. We may not speak the language everywhere we go, but we are not treated with the same level of suspicion as we are on the mainland. That kind of freedom, it's like a weight is lifted. Every black person you meet here, truly, has the same sort of response. Guam, Japan and Okinawa have a similar vibe. I have one cousin who, having chosen to homestead in Korea, moved to the Philippines and never came back.

 

It's hard to explain but the feel is very, very different.

Thank you for typing all that out. I appreciate it. I think I am understanding a little better. It seems that there is a sense of stranger in a strange land here and an unwanted stranger at that. (I know that's oversimplifying things a bit.) In the islands or overseas, you don't feel this way. Do you think that is mainly because you are no longer in the minority or mainly because of the attitude of the people?

[bibiche]

Here's a Salon interview with the author regarding why she wrote the article: http://www.salon.com/2015/03/17/the_white_fragility_complex_why_white_people_gets_so_defensive_about_their_privilege_partner/

[Sneezyone]

Thank you for typing all that out. I appreciate it. I think I am understanding a little better. It seems that there is a sense of stranger in a strange land here and an unwanted stranger at that. (I know that's oversimplifying things a bit.) In the islands or overseas, you don't feel this way. Do you think that is mainly because you are no longer in the minority or mainly because of the attitude of the people?

It's both. We certainly stand out in Japan, so being a minority is not in itself problematic. We are still minorities here too, we just blend better. We do not feel feared though, and there is no antipathy or suspicion directed our way.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

Here's a Salon interview with the author regarding why she wrote the article: http://www.salon.com/2015/03/17/the_white_fragility_complex_why_white_people_gets_so_defensive_about_their_privilege_partner/

There are so many statements that resonate with me but, as in the example I provided earlier, the thin skin and defensiveness are the biggest. It never occurred to my friend that being tall, blond, and blue-eyed was not a universally desired set of traits or that her statement would offend me. And having experienced this discomfort here, for the first time, she's grasping trying to figure out why this feeling persists and what to say to her kids about it. I want to tell her, as I tell my own kids, that you are only a victim if you allow yourself to be victimized and that developing a persecution complex, rather than learning how to overcome, is unhelpful. But if I told her that it's the lack of unearned benefits, not the presence of hostility, that she's feeling, I know she would shut down and become angry and standoffish. I've seen discrimination and what she's experiencing ain't it. Also, my kid is a mainlander too. So, I say nothing or murmer vague words of comfort. IRL, I do that A LOT. **Note: no one has said/done anything mean to this woman or her kids. They have not been bullied, beat up, harrassed, etc. She says her kids are not being favored as much as the local Asian/Amerasian kids.**

Edited December 9, 2015 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

Interesting, weighing the value/cost of diversity from the perspective of the minority group(s). I know my kids seem to be in a more relaxed state when they are in a group of people "like them," which isn't very often.

I was debating whether to respond to this because I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I was dismayed? I guess that's the best word and bothered enough to write this opus. Let me see if I can explain, and please forgive me if I misunderstood you.

 

In my experience diversity, to white people in America, usually means adding bit of shading and texture but not enough to change the whole picture, around 20% minority representation. That kind of diversity is acceptable. It's comfortable. It adds value and comes with very little cost. There are some alternate views offered from time to time, a race card may be played, but not enough to challenge the dominant view or win any arguments. That's not, however, diversity to me and I attach little value to that. It's extremely taxing to be a minority in those environs.

 

When I say diverse, I mean something greater than 30% minority representation, closer to 40%+. I mean a critical mass of voices that can engage on a (mostly) level playing field. I see great value in that kind of give/take but it requires the majority to be a bit less comfortable and risk losing a few arguments. That's a cost that I, while still a minority, can live with. The concept of white fragility, however, speaks to the idea that this price is too high for some white folks. Discomfort and open challenge is not something they can live with.

 

So when you say, "weighing the cost/value of diversity from a minority perspective", I am confused. I absolutely value diversity and think it's worth the cost. But my definition of diversity probably differs from yours. I don't need to be in the majority to be comfortable and feel lighthearted. I do need enough support to not feel like a guest at someone else's table.

 

Finally, and slightly OT...

 

I also get frustrated by some of your posts. Sometimes I think you're listening, considering. Other times, it seems like you are chiming in just to refute minority experiences. It's like you refuse to believe we experience the world as we say we do, not as you wish we would, or think we should. So when you say your kids feel more relaxed when more minorities are present, I wonder, are you really open to hearing things from them that you can't accept from us?

 

I just know how important it was for my parents to validate my feelings of otherness (even as they didn't let me wallow in them) and I know how much better my son felt when I was able to give voice to his frustration (even as the behaviors that caused it were unchanged). I feel like you're seeking to reassure yourself that we're exaggerating, that our feelings lack rationality or validity, and that your kids will have none of these issues...but what happens if you're wrong? I don't expect you to speak to any of this of course but I wanted to try to explain my confusion and frustration. I honestly do not understand what you're hoping to achieve when you engage in these discussions.

 

Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Sneezyone

[Bluegoat]

I deleted my original post because I was afraid my intent would be misunderstood because I am not always the best at expressing myself.

 

I want to say that I don't think things should be pushed under the rug. I understand (to some degree) why the dialogue happens but I can't help but wonder that if as kids we don't internalize things in ways other than they are intended. If someone says to a child, "Some people don't like black people or women." then a child still might internalize it as something being wrong with them. I know, of course, that the conversations are more in depth than this, but I still wonder. I think America has created a narrative in terms of race relations and it has been long standing and repetitive. Laws haven't changed racism. They have only suppressed the action and I think that is why we have seen the upsurge in violence this past year. I think we need a new narrative and to get there we need genuine dialogue.

 

ETA: I used the example of the female experience only because it was the best one I personally have, not to equate the two.

 

I do think this can be more tricky than people realize.  My elementary school was very mixed which seemed natural to me, but I remember getting some odd ideas from what we were taught about racism.  I took it, somehow, to mean that black people felt badly about themselves, and so I had to be very kind to them.  There was some question in my mind that this might men they were different in some way.  I found it  little stressful. 

 

[bibiche]

Finally, and slightly OT...

 

I also get frustrated by some of your posts. Sometimes I think you're listening, considering. Other times, it seems like you are chiming in just to refute minority experiences. It's like you refuse to believe we experience the world as we say we do, not as you wish we would, or think we should. So when you say your kids feel more relaxed when more minorities are present, I wonder, are you really open to hearing things from them that you can't accept from us?

 

I just know how important it was for my parents to validate my feelings of otherness (even as they didn't let me wallow in them) and I know how much better my son felt when I was able to give voice to his frustration (even as the behaviors that caused it were unchanged). I feel like you're seeking to reassure yourself that we're exaggerating, that our feelings lack rationality or validity, and that your kids will have none of these issues...but what happens if you're wrong? I don't expect you to speak to any of this of course but I wanted to try to explain my confusion and frustration. I honestly do not understand what you're hoping to achieve when you engage in these discussions.

 

Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling.

I liked all of your post, but I really appreciate your writing this, because it is something I have wanted to say but could not manage in a gentle and eloquent manner as you have done.

 

I do hope that it inspires some introspection.

[FO4UR]

 I know that in my family my nephew has been taught first and foremost how to be SAFE.  As in, how to stay alive.  

 

He has never been told that he can't achieve things, but he has been told that there is prejudice in the world and that fair or not, he might have to work harder to achieve his goals. That's just the reality, and this knowledge is to help him to not internalize failure and not think there is something intrinsically wrong with him, but realize that there is something intrinsically wrong with society as it relates to being a young black male.  

 

We can try to relate our experiences as females in a male-dominated society, but it is still not the same. Maybe if we were in another part of the world it woudl be a more accurate comparison, but in the US I don't think it is an equivalent experience.

 

At what point does the desire to protect a child turn into inadvertently teaching and perpetuating racism? 

 

Does teaching that "there is something intrinsically wrong with society" actually teach the same hatred that we are trying to eradicate?  Who is society anyway, but people?  Are we teaching kids to hate people who aren't like them?

 

 

I understand that I will likely be mocked for even asking these questions, but I am sincere.

 

At a certain point, it all boils down to the fact that the only way to end hatred (whatever the cause) is to stop hating. Pointing out someone else's hatred rarely works to end it. Hating another person for their hatred only reproduces it. We can only end the hatred in our own heart, and encourage others as they do the same.

[SKL]

I was debating whether to respond to this because I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I was dismayed? I guess that's the best word and bothered enough to write this opus. Let me see if I can explain, and please forgive me if I misunderstood you.

 

In my experience diversity, to white people in America, usually means adding bit of shading and texture but not enough to change the whole picture, around 20% minority representation. That kind of diversity is acceptable. It's comfortable. It adds value and comes with very little cost. There are some alternate views offered from time to time, a race card may be played, but not enough to challenge the dominant view or win any arguments. That's not, however, diversity to me and I attach little value to that. It's extremely taxing to be a minority in those environs.

 

When I say diverse, I mean something greater than 30% minority representation, closer to 40%+. I mean a critical mass of voices that can engage on a (mostly) level playing field. I see great value in that kind of give/take but it requires the majority to be a bit less comfortable and risk losing a few arguments. That's a cost that I, while still a minority, can live with. The concept of white fragility, however, speaks to the idea that this price is too high for some white folks. Discomfort and open challenge is not something they can live with.

 

So when you say, "weighing the cost/value of diversity from a minority perspective", I am confused. I absolutely value diversity and think it's worth the cost. But my definition of diversity probably differs from yours. I don't need to be in the majority to be comfortable and feel lighthearted. I do need enough support to not feel like a guest at someone else's table.

 

Finally, and slightly OT...

 

I also get frustrated by some of your posts. Sometimes I think you're listening, considering. Other times, it seems like you are chiming in just to refute minority experiences. It's like you refuse to believe we experience the world as we say we do, not as you wish we would, or think we should. So when you say your kids feel more relaxed when more minorities are present, I wonder, are you really open to hearing things from them that you can't accept from us?

 

I just know how important it was for my parents to validate my feelings of otherness (even as they didn't let me wallow in them) and I know how much better my son felt when I was able to give voice to his frustration (even as the behaviors that caused it were unchanged). I feel like you're seeking to reassure yourself that we're exaggerating, that our feelings lack rationality or validity, and that your kids will have none of these issues...but what happens if you're wrong? I don't expect you to speak to any of this of course but I wanted to try to explain my confusion and frustration. I honestly do not understand what you're hoping to achieve when you engage in these discussions.

 

Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling.

 

I'm sure you can acknowledge that this is a very complex matter and nobody's personal truth is "THE" truth on a global basis.

 

If you really read what I say, you will notice that it's very rare (if it ever happens) for me to assert that black people are __ or do __ or feel ___.  Most of the time I'm talking about my own experiences, which are also valid even though they are different from others'.  Or I'm talking about actual historical facts, which people can interpret as their soul dictates.

 

You wonder why I engage in the discussions?  Well, because I thought they were discussions, and different perspectives are usually needed to have a real discussion.  When you say things like that, it sounds like you want to silence people who don't share your world view.  It really makes me feel like never engaging again, but then, I am a member of this group too, and I don't see why I should be silent.

 

As for your "dismay," I am not sure what dismays you.  I was just musing.  I said something was "interesting" and I mentioned something about my own kids.  I appreciate your comment about how your definition of diversity may different from mine, but I'm not sure what is "dismaying" about my comment.  Did you read it as some kind of put-down?

Edited December 9, 2015 by SKL

[MaeFlowers]

I am going to respond to a few things I read but not quote.

 

There are some interesting things going on here. First, I think two different people expressed a sense of relief from being out of the country or more specifically in Africa. They felt a sense of belonging and as if a weight was lifted off their shoulders when they became the majority. I find this interesting and would say that maybe it is black fragility. This assumes that I am understanding white fragility as discomfort with racial tension and the reaction to it? Maybe? (I'm thinking and typing which may be dangerous.) Which leads me to believe that frgaility is a universal construct not one assigned to one group of people.

 

Second, someone mentioned feeling like part of a black collective. I find this interesting as well. I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the idea behind this is that black people in America have a shared experience and relate to each other by this experience. I'm struggling with that because my take away, from the black people I have known, is that experiences are as varied as individuals. There is no one experience but many. So, it says to me that it exists as a by-product of skin color or simply minority status. I also struggle with it because although I could see how it could be comfortable and protective to a person within the minority group, it also creates a divisive mentality that propegates us vs. them not only with the group but to the majority.

 

This is generally where my white fragility kicks in. It feels like we are all damned if we do, damned if we dont. When I say we, I mean everyone.

[Tanaqui]

Does teaching that "there is something intrinsically wrong with society" actually teach the same hatred that we are trying to eradicate?  Who is society anyway, but people?  Are we teaching kids to hate people who aren't like them?

 

No, we're not.

 

At a certain point, it all boils down to the fact that the only way to end hatred (whatever the cause) is to stop hating. Pointing out someone else's hatred rarely works to end it. Hating another person for their hatred only reproduces it. We can only end the hatred in our own heart, and encourage others as they do the same.

 

Structural racism isn't about hatred. If it were, how simple it would be! It's about systematic inequalities throughout our society that no one person is responsible for.

 

Consider the issue of blind auditions for orchestras. Without blind auditions, orchestras are overwhelmingly white and male. With blind auditions, suddenly their demographics mirror those of society! Is this because of hatred? No, because if the people making the decisions on the auditions were really full of seething rage for non-whites and women they would find an excuse to get those people out of the orchestra after the fact! It's because of unintentional and generally unconscious biases.

 

And we see the same thing in our justice system. Cops are more likely to arrest blacks who are using marijuana than whites, even though blacks and whites use it at the same rate. Once arrested, black people are more likely to be convicted. When convicted, they get tougher sentences, and are less likely to get parole.

 

Do we really believe that every cop, and every juror, and every judge, and every parole board, they're all nothing but evil, hate-filled people who are cackling with glee at the thought of screwing over black people? That's an absolutely ludicrous proposition. Those people exist, but not in those numbers.

 

We can't end structural racism by pretending that it doesn't exist.

 

Even if it were a matter of hatred, which it's not, pointing out somebody else's hatred might not stop them from being bad people, but it will certainly make others think twice before dealing with them.

[SKL]

So far there have been at least 3 people of color on this thread who have suggested they are suspicious of the motives of a white person posting on it.  It is a thread about what white people feel about racial issues.

 

The state of race relations in the USA is a topic that is important to everyone and we should all be free to speak and open to listen.

 

Responding with one's personal experience is not the same as saying someone else's experience is invalid.

 

Questioning someone's motives in commenting is not only saying their views are invalid and unwanted, but also that they have unkind intentions and probably an uncharitable heart.  Call it white fragility if you want.

[Garga]

I don't know whether I'm fragile or not. I rarely have conversations about race IRL.

 

If I am fragile, how do I not be fragile? What's the correct reaction I ought to have if I find myself feeling fragile? I don't think I am, but maybe I am? I don't know.

 

I have a clear memory of the day when I realized that my best friend, who was black, would never have the things I would have (or at least not without a huge fight), simply because she was black and I was white. I was 11. I was standing next to her on the back porch of our Baltimore city rowhomes and I looked over at her while we were playing "store." I was hit with such a sadness that her life would inevitably involve more struggle than mine. Even though we shared a wall, her family struggled with poverty. She went to the local public school and could barely read. My parents managed to get me to the local private school, at significant financial sacrifice, and would help me with my schoolwork. Nicky didn't have that sort of help. And I knew that her lack of education combined with her skin color would dog her her whole life.

 

Later, when I moved to a mostly white suburb of Baltimore, I was shopping one day in an area I didn't usually shop and went into Sam's Club. Everyone in the store was black except for me. I remember feeling a tinge of fear. I knew rationally that no one would hurt me and that everyone there just wanted to get their shopping done. But I had that sense of, "I have no allies here. I'm the different one. If I get into some sort of altercation, I'll be the one that no one believes and people are suspicious of, because I'm the one who is different." It was fleeting and I knew that of course there wouldn't be an altercation, etc. But for that one shopping trip I completely got it--what it feels like to know that no matter how kind or nice or innocent you are, if you're the one who is different, you won't be believed or helped.

 

I sure hope these stories aren't offensive. They're just part of my journey in understanding that there is institutional racism. That just being black in this country will have a negative impact on your life. That I as a white person do have privilege. That it's uncomfortable to downright dangerous to be in the minority.

 

I hate racisim in all its forms and wish I knew how to stop it. I want to just stomp my foot and say, "Stop it, stop it, stop it!" about all of this. It drives me crazy. I certainly don't want to add to it. I really hope I'm not doing things to add to it without even knowing it. The frustrating thing is that there's most likely something I'm doing that does add to it but I can't tell what it is. URGH.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Garga

[Slojo]

I am going to respond to a few things I read but not quote.

 

There are some interesting things going on here. First, I think two different people expressed a sense of relief from being out of the country or more specifically in Africa. They felt a sense of belonging and as if a weight was lifted off their shoulders when they became the majority. I find this interesting and would say that maybe it is black fragility. This assumes that I am understanding white fragility as discomfort with racial tension and the reaction to it? Maybe? (I'm thinking and typing which may be dangerous.) Which leads me to believe that frgaility is a universal construct not one assigned to one group of people.

 

Second, someone mentioned feeling like part of a black collective. I find this interesting as well. I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the idea behind this is that black people in America have a shared experience and relate to each other by this experience. I'm struggling with that because my take away, from the black people I have known, is that experiences are as varied as individuals. There is no one experience but many. So, it says to me that it exists as a by-product of skin color or simply minority status. I also struggle with it because although I could see how it could be comfortable and protective to a person within the minority group, it also creates a divisive mentality that propegates us vs. them not only with the group but to the majority.

 

This is generally where my white fragility kicks in. It feels like we are all damned if we do, damned if we dont. When I say we, I mean everyone.

 

Being part of a group of shared experience doesn't mean that black folks are carbon copies of one another, or stand in lock step with one another. The concept is not that hard to understand. Every woman who has had a baby has a shared experience -- my SPECIFIC experience is, of course, different than yours, but there's a shared experience there. Same with parenting, same with being from a small town in the Midwest or being an Olympic champion, or being really tall and having everyone comment on that, or growing up with immigrant parents, or being Jewish, or being allergic to gluten or being a pastor's kid or having lupus, or being a woman with a PhD in physics, or, or, or...  You have some common language, often "get" things without it having to be explicit, understand the "inside" jokes, maybe have shared concerns (even if you have different strategies for dealing with them than other individuals), can walk into a place you've never been and yet it feels familiar/like home, etc...  

 

But, you already implicitly understand how this works in your own life. Why does it need to be this strange, foreign thing to be held suspect in the hands of black people (or any group of people)?  I have a shared experience with the majority of African Americans, but, of course, I am my own person and my journey is a variation on a pretty broad theme. There's no secret handshake (with the possible exception of "dap" - just kidding).  

 

I have a shared experience with all of you who are homeschoolers -- we have an ENTIRE website dedicated to our SHARED experience - that we each come to on a regular basis for advice, community, a sense of "feeling normal", new ideas, inspiration, and encouragement. Surely you would allow that I make similar connections with other black people without there being any need to see it as anything other than connecting with a group of folks who share an aspect of my identity. IT in and of itself does not create a divisive mentality. It really doesn't anymore than coming on here to share frustrations with homeschooling or to ask advice about math or to just hang out with folks who don't think it's totally weird to hang out with one's kids all day. And this "divisive" attitude laid at the feet of black people, as if racism is caused by some old black dude on the south side of Chicago ranting about how white people have done him wrong -- sure, that person exists (and some black people are like that), but really, what power does that person have over your life? 

 

I don't know whether I'm fragile or not. I rarely have conversations about race IRL.

 

If I am fragile, how do I not be fragile? What's the correct reaction I ought to have if I find myself feeling fragile? I don't think I am, but maybe I am? I don't know.

 

I have a clear memory of the day when I realized that my best friend, who was black, would never have the things I would have (or at least not without a huge fight),... 

 

Later, when I moved to a mostly white suburb of Baltimore, I was shopping one day in an area I didn't usually shop and went into Sam's Club. Everyone in the store was black except for me. I remember feeling a tinge of fear....  

I sure hope these stories aren't offensive. They're just part of my journey in understanding that there is institutional racism. That just being black in this country will have a negative impact on your life. That I as a white person do have privilege. That it's uncomfortable to downright dangerous to be in the minority.

 

Snipped for brevity - your stories are great! You had some experiences and used them to create some empathy and awareness You got curious and engaged about the (different) experiences of other folks. None of this seems to fit the what has been described as "white fragility" - the inability to see, and the inability to believe "any of this matters."

Edited December 9, 2015 by Slojo

[SKL]

...  

 

But, you already implicitly understand how this works in your own life. Why does it need to be this strange, foreign thing to be held suspect in the hands of black people (or any group of people)?  I have a shared experience with the majority of African Americans, but, of course, I am my own person and my journey is a variation on a pretty broad theme.....

 

I think the PP was responding to the statements made by one or two posters or linked articles (written by black people) that black people do differ from white people in this regard (world view based more on group experience/interests vs. individual experience/interests).

 

It is possible those writers' personal experience is not consistent with your experience, or that we are not understanding those writers' words very well.

[Sneezyone]

At what point does the desire to protect a child turn into inadvertently teaching and perpetuating racism?

 

Does teaching that "there is something intrinsically wrong with society" actually teach the same hatred that we are trying to eradicate? Who is society anyway, but people? Are we teaching kids to hate people who aren't like them?

 

 

I understand that I will likely be mocked for even asking these questions, but I am sincere.

 

At a certain point, it all boils down to the fact that the only way to end hatred (whatever the cause) is to stop hating. Pointing out someone else's hatred rarely works to end it. Hating another person for their hatred only reproduces it. We can only end the hatred in our own heart, and encourage others as they do the same.

One doesn't have to teach racism. It's already there. I do think it's important to give kids a vocabulary for talking about what they already know. It's like pointing to their shoes and saying shoes or watching a temper tantrum and acknowledging that they are feeling something called frustration or anger. Ignoring the things on their feet or the pain in their heart doesn't make them go away. They need the words to talk about and process those feelings. They need to know they can trust their own mind. That does not create or perpetuate racism. The feeling these conversations often create is one of RELIEF. Like wow, I'm not crazy. There's a name for this and other people feel it too!

Edited December 9, 2015 by Sneezyone

[Tanaqui]

One doesn't have to teach racism. It's already there.

 

And aren't there studies showing that not talking to kids about race actually makes them more prone to racial biases?

 

[Sneezyone]

So far there have been at least 3 people of color on this thread who have suggested they are suspicious of the motives of a white person posting on it. It is a thread about what white people feel about racial issues.

 

The state of race relations in the USA is a topic that is important to everyone and we should all be free to speak and open to listen.

 

Responding with one's personal experience is not the same as saying someone else's experience is invalid.

 

Questioning someone's motives in commenting is not only saying their views are invalid and unwanted, but also that they have unkind intentions and probably an uncharitable heart. Call it white fragility if you want.

It is a post about the concept of white fragility, which you display quite well, not an inquiry into how people generally feel about race relations. The three people who questioned your motives tried, nicely I think, to explain why they do (namely that you often show a remarkable consistency in speaking openly and listening very little). The same ideas you've espoused have been engaged with, explained, in some cases disagreed with but you, unlike others, just keep at it, repeating the same tropes as though you know what it means to be a minority better than minorities themselves. What would you think of someone who did that in any other context? Anyway, I tried, others have tried...moving on.

[MaeFlowers]

Being part of a group of shared experience doesn't mean that black folks are carbon copies of one another, or stand in lock step with one another. The concept is not that hard to understand. Every woman who has had a baby has a shared experience -- my SPECIFIC experience is, of course, different than yours, but there's a shared experience there. Same with parenting, same with being from a small town in the Midwest or being an Olympic champion, or being really tall and having everyone comment on that, or growing up with immigrant parents, or being Jewish, or being allergic to gluten or being a pastor's kid or having lupus, or being a woman with a PhD in physics, or, or, or...  You have some common language, often "get" things without it having to be explicit, understand the "inside" jokes, maybe have shared concerns (even if you have different strategies for dealing with them than other individuals), can walk into a place you've never been and yet it feels familiar/like home, etc...  

 

But, you already implicitly understand how this works in your own life. Why does it need to be this strange, foreign thing to be held suspect in the hands of black people (or any group of people)?  I have a shared experience with the majority of African Americans, but, of course, I am my own person and my journey is a variation on a pretty broad theme. There's no secret handshake (with the possible exception of "dap" - just kidding).  

 

I have a shared experience with all of you who are homeschoolers -- we have an ENTIRE website dedicated to our SHARED experience - that we each come to on a regular basis for advice, community, a sense of "feeling normal", new ideas, inspiration, and encouragement. Surely you would allow that I make similar connections with other black people without there being any need to see it as anything other than connecting with a group of folks who share an aspect of my identity. IT in and of itself does not create a divisive mentality. It really doesn't anymore than coming on here to share frustrations with homeschooling or to ask advice about math or to just hang out with folks who don't think it's totally weird to hang out with one's kids all day. And this "divisive" attitude laid at the feet of black people, as if racism is caused by some old black dude on the south side of Chicago ranting about how white people have done him wrong -- sure, that person exists (and some black people are like that), but really, what power does that person have over your life? 

 

Snipped for brevity - your stories are great! You had some experiences and used them to create some empathy and awareness You got curious and engaged about the (different) experiences of other folks. None of this seems to fit the what has been described as "white fragility" - the inability to see, and the inability to believe "any of this matters."

 

Please don't talk to me like I'm stupid. I may not have articulated myself well but I don't deserve that. I do not understand the idea of a black experience. I guess it could be true but it seems pretty unfathomable. I can't imagine defining a white experience. I don't buy into a female experience, either. Experiences are too wide and varied for that amongst any group. I wouldn't assume there is an asian experience or indian experience or any other thing I could possibly think of. Its **my** opinion, nothing more. I am not accusing you of lying. Maybe you really do feel that. Maybe it boils down to a personality thing. I'm pretty damn independent. I've never joined a group to share similar experiences. I came here initially to find information about homeschooling. I stayed because there are so many different and interesting people here that I can learn from and whose stories I enjoy hearing. You included.

 

Second, I one hundred percent stand behind the notion that it can be divisive. It seperates people out by some aspect of identity. Belonging to groups of people who share common interests, charateristics, etc. is not inherently evil. It's good, it's beneficial, but it can be divisive. I think talking about that is reasonable. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Third, I am not laying the divisive attitude or racism at the feet of black people. It's a people problem. A black people problem and white people problem and everything in between problem. I think everyone contributes.

[Sneezyone]

I am going to respond to a few things I read but not quote.

 

There are some interesting things going on here. First, I think two different people expressed a sense of relief from being out of the country or more specifically in Africa. They felt a sense of belonging and as if a weight was lifted off their shoulders when they became the majority. I find this interesting and would say that maybe it is black fragility. This assumes that I am understanding white fragility as discomfort with racial tension and the reaction to it? Maybe? (I'm thinking and typing which may be dangerous.) Which leads me to believe that frgaility is a universal construct not one assigned to one group of people.

 

Second, someone mentioned feeling like part of a black collective. I find this interesting as well. I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the idea behind this is that black people in America have a shared experience and relate to each other by this experience. I'm struggling with that because my take away, from the black people I have known, is that experiences are as varied as individuals. There is no one experience but many. So, it says to me that it exists as a by-product of skin color or simply minority status. I also struggle with it because although I could see how it could be comfortable and protective to a person within the minority group, it also creates a divisive mentality that propegates us vs. them not only with the group but to the majority.

 

This is generally where my white fragility kicks in. It feels like we are all damned if we do, damned if we dont. When I say we, I mean everyone.

Is there relief in not being a significant minority, yes, but I do not believe it is that alone. One needn't be in the majority to feel that. I am still in the minority in the islands and in Japan. I think others have responded well to the second part. Collective/shared does not mean no variation.

[Sneezyone]

Please don't talk to me like I'm stupid. I may not have articulated myself well but I don't deserve that. I do not understand the idea of a black experience. I guess it could be true but it seems pretty unfathomable. I can't imagine defining a white experience. I don't buy into a female experience, either. Experiences are too wide and varied for that amongst any group. I wouldn't assume there is an asian experience or indian experience or any other thing I could possibly think of. Its **my** opinion, nothing more. I am not accusing you of lying. Maybe you really do feel that. Maybe it boils down to a personality thing. I'm pretty damn independent. I've never joined a group to share similar experiences. I came here initially to find information about homeschooling. I stayed because there are so many different and interesting people here that I can learn from and whose stories I enjoy hearing. You included.

 

Second, I one hundred percent stand behind the notion that it can be divisive. It seperates people out by some aspect of identity. Belonging to groups of people who share common interests, charateristics, etc. is not inherently evil. It's good, it's beneficial, but it can be divisive. I think talking about that is reasonable. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Third, I am not laying the divisive attitude or racism at the feet of black people. It's a people problem. A black people problem and white people problem and everything in between problem. I think everyone contributes.

I think you are struggling with the concept because white people typically aren't treated as a collective by eachother or society. You do not fear all white people because of a single mass shooter, yes? Black people ARE often treated as a collective. We are held out as more violent, aggresive, what have you on the basis of individual acts committed in primarily poor communities. There is, in fact, an Asian experience and a Latino experience, one you are probably not privvy to either. It's why those videos on 'things white people say' are so broadly shared...they resonate with people who share that experience. Obviously, you don't have to believe it, but that disbelief does feel dissmissive. Edited December 9, 2015 by Sneezyone

[MaeFlowers]

I think you are struggling with the concept because white people typically aren't treated as a collective by eachother or society. You do not fear all white people because of a single mass shooter, yes? Black people ARE often treated as a collective. We are held out as more violent, aggresive, what have you on the basis of individual acts committed in primarily poor communities. There is, in fact, an Asian experience and a Latino experience, one you are probably not privvy to either. It's why those videos on 'things white people say' are so broadly shared...they resonate with people who share that experience. Obviously, you don't have to believe it, but that disbelief does feel dissmissive.

Okay. I get it. Thank you for explaining that way. I was not trying to be dismissive but I do see how I it was.

 

I guess I really can't get it which makes me feel like this while conversation is futile.

[Tanaqui]

I guess it could be true but it seems pretty unfathomable. I can't imagine defining a white experience. I don't buy into a female experience, either. Experiences are too wide and varied for that amongst any group. I wouldn't assume there is an asian experience or indian experience or any other thing I could possibly think of.

 

I want to share a link with you.

 

This is the American Culture Test, updated last year. You can see that on that page there are links to other culture tests - French, Israeli, Mexican - some of which are pretty old now and haven't been updated, but they're still useful for comparison purposes.

 

We can say that the items on the culture test collectively comprise The American Experience. Now, obviously not every native-born American (this does not mean "Native American"!) is going to have had exactly the same experiences and there are probably some items you disagree with. However, I would be very surprised if you came back and reported that none of it was familiar to you at all.

 

If somebody were to submit to Zompist a specifically Black American Culture Test, it would include other items that are familiar to most African-Americans, but not familiar to most white Americans. You might find some of those items surprising or upsetting. Some you might not particularly want to believe, but if it was compiled by a black person it would probably be accurate for most other black people.

[Sneezyone]

Okay. I get it. Thank you for explaining that way. I was not trying to be dismissive but I do see how I it was.

 

I guess I really can't get it which makes me feel like this while conversation is futile.

It's absolutely not futile, but it can be hard. I get that. I've spent my life in this skin. Whether I'm here or abroad, I'm almost always a minority. LOL. I appreciate your willingness to try.

[SKL]

It is a post about the concept of white fragility, which you display quite well, not an inquiry into how people generally feel about race relations. The three people who questioned your motives tried, nicely I think, to explain why they do (namely that you often show a remarkable consistency in speaking openly and listening very little). The same ideas you've espoused have been engaged with, explained, in some cases disagreed with but you, unlike others, just keep at it, repeating the same tropes as though you know what it means to be a minority better than minorities themselves. What would you think of someone who did that in any other context? Anyway, I tried, others have tried...moving on.

 

How can you possibly know whether I am listening or not?

 

Yes I have many of the same views from one day to the next, like most people, including the people calling me out for it.

 

I never said I know anything about what it feels like to be a minority.  Please quote me anyplace where I have done so.

 

People are getting kind of personal here when they don't like what they hear about race relations from me - a white person - and that's really the exact same thing as whites are accused of in the "white fragility" paper.

 

Have a nice day and try not to be too fragile.

[Slojo]

Please don't talk to me like I'm stupid. I may not have articulated myself well but I don't deserve that. I do not understand the idea of a black experience. I guess it could be true but it seems pretty unfathomable. I can't imagine defining a white experience. I don't buy into a female experience, either. Experiences are too wide and varied for that amongst any group. I wouldn't assume there is an asian experience or indian experience or any other thing I could possibly think of. Its **my** opinion, nothing more. I am not accusing you of lying. Maybe you really do feel that. Maybe it boils down to a personality thing. I'm pretty damn independent. I've never joined a group to share similar experiences. I came here initially to find information about homeschooling. I stayed because there are so many different and interesting people here that I can learn from and whose stories I enjoy hearing. You included.

 

Second, I one hundred percent stand behind the notion that it can be divisive. It seperates people out by some aspect of identity. Belonging to groups of people who share common interests, charateristics, etc. is not inherently evil. It's good, it's beneficial, but it can be divisive. I think talking about that is reasonable. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Third, I am not laying the divisive attitude or racism at the feet of black people. It's a people problem. A black people problem and white people problem and everything in between problem. I think everyone contributes.

 

Perhaps the examples I used were too basic, but I was really trying to demystify this notion of AAs having a shared experience by coming up with lots of common experiences that you would more likely be familiar with. If you can objectively understand those other examples of shared experience, it really isn't that hard to understand the idea of a black experience (or asian experience or Indian experience). So, I guess I don't get why it's so "ungettable."  Because you so surely get that an American would experience at least some things differently in world world than an Palestinian or Japanese person would, I was trying to engage you in the leap to a black experience -- not fundamentally that different. 

 

I didn't think you accused me of lying at all. You can't see what you can't see, and yet my sense is that tacitly you must see it. I get independence, I have a fair amount of it myself (and I don't belong to any "black club" that I joined - I just AM black). But sure you've joined groups - you joined this one, and as you said, to find information about homeschooling... and then to stay to engage with different and interesting people who bring a range of perspectives. 

 

You could almost virtually swap out "homeschooling" for "black" and construct nearly the same sentence. "I hang out with black people because I get more information about and validation for some of what I am experiencing.... I enjoy going to the black author's reading group/an African American church/etc... because there are so many different and interesting people here that I can learn from and whose stories I enjoy hearing (all which happen to be in the context of a broadly shared experience called homeschooling/the black US experience, which is what motivated me to see about this thing to begin with...) Really. Trying to demystify -- joiner or not, you belong to some communities of place, shared experience, etc.. If you are American, that's a community. You live in a town, you more than likely associate with one or more socio-economic groups. You have a home language (or languages if you grew up with equally formative experiences in two or more languages. You have a race - and whether you see it or not - that race (and all those other things) has shaped you. Shaped doesn't be defined or limited you, just shaped/influenced.  

 

I 100% stand behind the notion that groups can be divisive as well. What I do not stand behind is the idea that the mere naming and identification with a group is divisive in and of itself. There's a layer of meaning that you are putting on this that doesn't necessarily have to be, that you are not putting on other groups, like parents for instance. And there is the unspoken suggestion that if folks just stop ever associating any of their experiences with race, then "all of this division" goes away. Yes, I am going on record as saying I think that premise is false.

 

And I am trying to unpeel the layers to understand what it is about this aspect of identity that has you reach for the "divisive" adjective. What's the underlying concern? Could you imagine a space where it is possible to positively identify with a group without it being divisive? And if you can see that for the vaguely shared identity of being a homeschooler or someone who went to U of M or becoming parents then I going to ask you to try to apply that same objectivity to race. 

 

It's all good. It's part of discussing. Happy to hear your views, and really trying to understand how you got there. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Slojo

[Sneezyone]

How can you possibly know whether I am listening or not?

 

Because when people engage you and attempt to understand your perspective, or ask you to explain further, you don't elaborate. You go off on another tangent/make another statement/point. That's not discussion or dialogue. That's hit and run.

 

Yes I have many of the same views from one day to the next, like most people, including the people calling me out for it.

 

Odd as it may seem, I'm willing to accept new facts, hear new perspectives, and change my mind quite often. 

 

I never said I know anything about what it feels like to be a minority.  Please quote me anyplace where I have done so.

 

When you say that your experience is this or that with respect to minorities, or that minorities you know think this or that, it does feel like you're placing your opinion ahead of others' lived experiences. I'm not gong to go back and rehash every thread and post but when several people are telling you that this is the impression you create, intentional or not, it may be worth considering.

 

People are getting kind of personal here when they don't like what they hear about race relations from me - a white person - and that's really the exact same thing as whites are accused of in the "white fragility" paper.

 

People feel some kind of way about you, not all white people, or even all white people in this thread. That feeling is not hatred and it's certainly not fragility. If it were, folks would have stopped engaging with you eons ago. I do hope you spend some time reading adult transracial adoptee blogs though. Maybe you will see/hear things there that you cannot see/hear here. Maybe not.

 

Have a nice day and try not to be too fragile.

 

I will do my best.  :lol: 

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Sneezyone

[Carrie12345]

Okay. I get it. Thank you for explaining that way. I was not trying to be dismissive but I do see how I it was.

 

I guess I really can't get it which makes me feel like this while conversation is futile.

 

I don't understand why it needs to be futile.

I'm never going to understand the black experience in the way a black person does.  Never, ever, ever.  But I will also never ever believe that attempting to understand *to the best of my ability*, gaining perspective, and imparting it on my children could be futile. How, in any universe, could that do any harm, even if it didn't do any good?  And how could it not do any good, even if only a tiny bit?

 

It may be uncomfortable at times, and it may take up some of my mental and emotional energy, but I spend both on plenty of much less important topics.

[Tanaqui]

SKL, the very first comment you made on this thread ran like this:

 

Well since white fragility is a recognized issue, I trust the universities have set up safe zones and trigger warnings to protect those affected by it.

 

It doesn't sound very sincere to me. It sounds snide - and looking at the people who upvoted you, and the responses some of them made, I doubt I was the only one.

 

I don't really want to harp on it, because you've made other, more substantial comments since then, but when that's your very first reply it sort of sets the tone for the rest of the conversation. And that's not a one-off. Frequently, when issues like this come up, you make responses that sound like jokes when everybody else is trying to talk to one another seriously.

 

I don't know why you do that, but it's off-putting, and it creates an image of somebody who, for whatever reason, doesn't really want to engage seriously with this subject. Which is fine, except you do it over and over again. When there are threads I don't really want to participate in, I avoid them, you know?

 

So how are we to interpret this? You clearly want to participate in these threads on racism and privilege and the like, you will make multiple comments - but you frequently do so in superficial and dismissive ways. And then sometimes you post substantive replies that look like you were really thinking about the issue... but on the next thread it's back to the jokes and the "you're choosing to get offended" level of rhetoric.

 

I don't know why you should do this. I can tell you that it's frustrating to watch. If you were just snideness, we could put you on ignore and be done with it. Or if it was just thought and effort, we could say "We disagree, but at least we're both striving to understand each other". But this...!

 

Have a nice day and try not to be too fragile.

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't know what you intended, but it's hard for me to read that as anything other than "Shut up and stop bugging me".

 

I never said I know anything about what it feels like to be a minority.  Please quote me anyplace where I have done so.

 

I don't think you've said those words in this thread, but you've several times said things like:

 

It is condescending to say someone can't possibly understand something.  What if whites went around saying other races can't possibly understand how it is to have a bad sunburn, or to be repeatedly accused of racism with no objective basis?

 

You know, it's a lot different to say "I can't possibly understand" than to say "you / your group can't possibly understand."

 

Well I think some people (of all races) waste a lot of emotional energy thinking up things to get upset about.

 

That's just in this thread. A casual reader might interpret these comments as you saying that you do understand what it's like to be a racial minority, and it's really no worse than a bad sunburn; that being accused of racism is just as bad as being discriminated against for your skin color; and that if people are upset about inequality then that's because they are wasting their energy "thinking up things to get upset about" rather than that those things (whatever they are) are actually a problem.

 

If that's not what you meant, then maybe you need to work on expressing yourself better.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Tanaqui

[Pam in CT]

re: uncomfortable discussions versus futile ones:

... First, I think two different people expressed a sense of relief from being out of the country or more specifically in Africa. They felt a sense of belonging and as if a weight was lifted off their shoulders when they became the majority. I find this interesting and would say that maybe it is black fragility. This assumes that I am understanding white fragility as discomfort with racial tension and the reaction to it? Maybe? (I'm thinking and typing which may be dangerous.) Which leads me to believe that frgaility is a universal construct not one assigned to one group of people.

 

Second, someone mentioned feeling like part of a black collective. I find this interesting as well. I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the idea behind this is that black people in America have a shared experience and relate to each other by this experience. I'm struggling with that because my take away, from the black people I have known, is that experiences are as varied as individuals. There is no one experience but many. So, it says to me that it exists as a by-product of skin color or simply minority status. I also struggle with it because although I could see how it could be comfortable and protective to a person within the minority group, it also creates a divisive mentality that propegates us vs. them not only with the group but to the majority.

 

This is generally where my white fragility kicks in. It feels like we are all damned if we do, damned if we dont. When I say we, I mean everyone.

 

Okay. I get it. Thank you for explaining that way. I was not trying to be dismissive but I do see how I it was.

I guess I really can't get it which makes me feel like this while conversation is futile.

 

MaeFlower, FWIW, I urge to to keep on engaging.  It is clear from the bolded bits, to me-- a white woman who tries to listen, often finds it hard, and definitely stumbles-- that you are trying to listen.  It's likely to be hard and OK, you might also sometimes stumble.  

 

I have to believe we're a lot more damned if we don't try, than if we do.  

 

 

I don't understand why it needs to be futile.

I'm never going to understand the black experience in the way a black person does.  Never, ever, ever.  But I will also never ever believe that attempting to understand *to the best of my ability*, gaining perspective, and imparting it on my children could be futile. How, in any universe, could that do any harm, even if it didn't do any good?  And how could it not do any good, even if only a tiny bit?

 

It may be uncomfortable at times, and it may take up some of my mental and emotional energy, but I spend both of plenty on much less important topics.

So.very.true.

[Carrie12345]

Man, I just lost a big, long post about unlocking some of my own inner workings and my thoughts on raising my very privileged children.  Oh, well. It was cathartic for me, lol.

[EmseB]

I want to share a link with you.

 

This is the American Culture Test, updated last year. You can see that on that page there are links to other culture tests - French, Israeli, Mexican - some of which are pretty old now and haven't been updated, but they're still useful for comparison purposes.

 

We can say that the items on the culture test collectively comprise The American Experience. Now, obviously not every native-born American (this does not mean "Native American"!) is going to have had exactly the same experiences and there are probably some items you disagree with. However, I would be very surprised if you came back and reported that none of it was familiar to you at all.

 

If somebody were to submit to Zompist a specifically Black American Culture Test, it would include other items that are familiar to most African-Americans, but not familiar to most white Americans. You might find some of those items surprising or upsetting. Some you might not particularly want to believe, but if it was compiled by a black person it would probably be accurate for most other black people.

I don't know what this says about me, but I sort of maybe learned a lesson similar to what you talk about in this post watching "black jeopardy" on SNL. As in, yes, I'm the white person and I don't understand.

 

On the other hand, I think that watching that and reading here also maybe made me think more than ever that no one really wants to work on the issues surrounding racism.

 

Eta: to expand on the last thought, it just seems like an attitude on both sides of, "you don't get it, you can't get it, you won't ever understand what I'm trying to say."

Edited December 9, 2015 by JodiSue

[Tanaqui]

I don't know what this says about me, but I sort of maybe learned a lesson similar to what you talk about in this post watching "black jeopardy" on SNL. As in, yes, I'm the white person and I don't understand.

 

I think that was somebody else, actually.

 

Eta: to expand on the last thought, it just seems like an attitude on both sides of, "you don't get it, you can't get it, you won't ever understand what I'm trying to say."

 

Well, I suppose the alternative is to say "What I'm saying is so self-evident, I don't know how you possibly don't understand it by now", and I don't think that will go over any better.

 

Seriously, if people don't understand I sometimes think it's because they're not trying, and I sometimes think it's because I'm not explaining myself well enough, and most often it's probably a combination of the two. I don't think people can NEVER understand each other, at least intellectually.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Tanaqui

[Pam in CT]

Man, I just lost a big, long post about unlocking some of my own inner workings and my thoughts on raising my very privileged children.  Oh, well. It was cathartic for me, lol.

That.is.the.worst.  Glad for the catharsis, though.

 

 

re: difficulties in "understanding"

... Seriously, if people don't understand I sometimes think it's because they're not trying, and I sometimes think it's because I'm not explaining myself well enough, and most often it's probably a combination of the two. I don't think people can NEVER understand each other, at least intellectually.

I think as well it's also just plain hard.  The concepts are hard, the experiences are intense, the language is limited, the analogies are imperfect, it's just hard.  

 

I have a hard time understanding and being understood by my husband, and I've known him since I was 17 years old and we're not trying to bridge across these kinds of differences.

[EmseB]

I think that was somebody else, actually.

 

 

Well, I suppose the alternative is to say "What I'm saying is so self-evident, I don't know how you possibly don't understand it by now", and I don't think that will go over any better.

 

Seriously, if people don't understand I sometimes think it's because they're not trying, and I sometimes think it's because I'm not explaining myself well enough, and most often it's probably a combination of the two. I don't think people can NEVER understand each other, at least intellectually.

 

No, I'm saying I read your post and it reminded me of the clip I watched earlier this week.  I'm saying your post and that video helped me to understand a couple of perspectives I think were eluding me for quite awhile.

 

As to the 2nd part of your post here, that's just the thing.  My general operating idea in life is that I try to treat people how I would like to be treated.  When I realize that I've gone off the rails in this regard, and I do something to someone that I think would be unkind if they did it to me, then I try to back up and offer more respect.  In reading this thread and the microagression thread and others, it seems like that is just not good enough, because as a white woman I cannot possibly ever understand how someone else would want to be treated in various situations (which I admit, I cannot know exactly how someone wants to be approached or treated at any given time, I can only do what I think I would appreciate or how I would like someone to talk to me).  So me trying to apply the golden rule doesn't even work because it's offensive to presume someone else would like to be treated as I would like to be treated.  And, even if I am trying to treat someone as I would like to be treated, I can still piss them off inadvertently, and if I seem to think my actions are defensible in any way, well then, I have white fragility.

 

And, if all that is true, then I feel like, no, there's no hope of bridging the gap.  It seems horribly circular with no end to offense and defensiveness.  Instead of everyone involved just assuming people mean to do the best they can (even though we know it's not always true) we are looking for tiny ways they might be offending us or asserting themselves.  It seems exhausting for everyone involved.  Whereas just assuming people are trying to get along as best they can (even though we know it's not always the case) just seems like an easier way to live ones life.  We can have errors in communication, we can have oblivious people, we can have tough conversations without it being microaggression or white fragility, or something that is horribly evil and permanently divisive.  When we say that treating others as we would like to be treated is not good enough...it just seems very, very hopeless.

Edited December 10, 2015 by JodiSue

[Sneezyone]

No, I'm saying I read your post and it reminded me of the clip I watched earlier this week.  I'm saying your post and that video helped me to understand a couple of perspectives I think were eluding me for quite awhile.

 

As to the 2nd part of your post here, that's just the thing.  My general operating idea in life is that I try to treat people how I would like to be treated.  When I realize that I've gone off the rails in this regard, and I do something to someone that I think would be unkind if they did it to me, then I try to back up and offer more respect.  In reading this thread and the microagression thread and others, it seems like that is just not good enough, because as a white woman I cannot possibly ever understand how someone else would want to be treated in various situations (which I admit, I cannot know exactly how someone wants to be approached or treated at any given time, I can only do what I think I would appreciate or how I would like someone to talk to me).  So me trying to apply the golden rule doesn't even work because it's offensive to presume someone else would like to be treated as I would like to be treated.  And, even if I am trying to treat someone as I would like to be treated, I can still piss them off inadvertently, and if I seem to think my actions are defensible in any way, well then, I have white fragility.

 

And, if all that is true, then I feel like, no, there's no hope of bridging the gap.  It seems horribly circular with no end to offense and defensiveness.  Instead of everyone involved just assuming people mean to do the best they can (even though we know it's not always true) we are looking for tiny ways they might be offending us or asserting themselves.  It seems exhausting for everyone involved.  Whereas just assuming people are trying to get along as best they can (even though we know it's not always the case) just seems like an easier way to live ones life.  We can have errors in communication, we can have oblivious people, we can have tough conversations without it being microaggression or white fragility, or something that is horribly evil and permanently divisive.  When we say that treating others as we would like to be treated is not good enough...it just seems very, very hopeless.

 

I think treating others as we want to be treated ourselves is always a good rule  of thumb. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. No one's going to get it right all of the time but to say TRYING to avoid that kind of insult is pointless or that the recipient is taking it the wrong way...I don't buy that. What that says to me is that you (ETA: I don't mean you, personally) don't want to put forth the effort to understand why or how it is problematic because it's not worth it to you, not that the work isn't in itself valuable.

 

Would you agree that the comment I received from my friend about everyone wanting to be her tall, blue-eyed, blond-haired daughter was something less than gracious?

 

What would you call it when I can rattle off many, many examples of similar remarks from white friends and coworkers (and the phenomenon has been documented and researched)?

 

When would this pattern of subtle insults, denials and defensiveness be sufficiently well-documented to merit some kind of response or 'term' of art to describe it?

 

And do you see anything wrong with allowing those tipping point decisions to be made from the  majority perspective?

 

My friend certainly didn't see herself as being offensive when she said that to me. I don't believe she intended to give offense but she did. I certainly wasn't looking to have that insult dumped in my lap and I cannot help but believe that my friend would benefit from time spent thinking about these issues from a perspective other than her own. If introspection/dialogue might make her BETTER at treating others (like me) as they would like to be treated, why wouldn't she?

 

And yet, as I said, the minute I bring it up, she would shut down.

 

What do you call that pattern of responses?

Edited December 10, 2015 by Sneezyone