Tess in the Burbs Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 My son is 8th grade this year. He will be 14 this Dec. He loves to read, but hates school/education of any kind. Let's just say it's been rough the last few years trying to provide a strong education with a reluctant student. I am looking ahead to high school and could really use some advice on how to begin planning and picking what to teach/do with him when he really doesn't want to do any of it. Example: He's doing Apologia Physical this year. I talked with him about Biology next or Physics. None is his choice. He doesn't like either enough to want to study it next year. So what the heck do I plan ?? We did Earth/Astronomy last year. Example: He's doing geometry this year. He started strong, but the whining is building daily. Even if we finish this course by summer, I can't drag him through Algebra II if he's not willing to do the work. What do I pick for next year to keep him moving forward that he will do? And while he is good at math, he will tell you how much he hates it. Example: He dumped Easy Grammar after 20 lessons b/c he felt there wasn't enough teaching. He's back in Rod&Staff, but complains daily about the amount of work. He's not acing this, so yes, he's doing most of the written stuff. If he knew grammar I wouldn't feel the need for another year of it, but he needs more grammar. And writing....doing IEW SWI-CC course. His writing yesterday was atrocious. Even dh commented about how awful it was, even for a first draft. He can do the edits, but the sentences....gosh, they are short, choppy, and every writing lesson we have ever had exited his head immediatly based on yesterday's work. I know a lot could happen between now and June. However, this isn't new. His attitude toward school has always been very negative. He has chosen his curriculum over the years. We have changed when he asked due to dislike. At some point we had to just say finish this program. He has no career aspirations. He wants to work long enough (who knows in what) to get enough money to buy land, guns, a dog, and live off the land. He isn't listening to practicality at this point. I tried to make his interests into learning. He wanted to build a boat. I encouraged him to read about boating and the science behind it. I told him to find a plan that was reasonable. He decided I made it un fun by researching how to build the boat. I pointed out I can't afford to just buy supplies to waste. He needed a plan. He gave up the boat building. I will say that his sister, who is a grade behind him, is very motivated and will most likely graduate high school early. She's blowing through school work and has lots of educational goals. This really is a personality thing with my son. He is my moody kid. Always has been. If it's not his idea, he won't do it. How do I plan a high school education with a reluctant kid like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Tess, has he had a recent physical? Blood work? Maybe look at his Vitamin D levels. What are his sleep patterns? Is he gaming at night when he should be sleeping? How about his diet? I think maybe you need to start there before you can begin to address the school work - unless you already have. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share Posted November 11, 2015 He's been at the Dr plenty this year. He developed scoliosis and has been doing PT for that. He's been seen extra times for constipation issues. He already takes Vit D and other vitamins. He goes to bed at the same time every night. Dh is a light sleeper and he's only ever caught ds out of bed feeding the hamster ONCE. Scared him so badly, I don't think the kids will ever get out of bed at night again. hehe He eats pretty well. He has food allergies, but I make sure his diet is varied. He only drinks water and a peach juice(dr asked for constipation). Not a lot of sugary stuff. I feel like I have already looked at medical issues, sleep issues, and such. In fact, I tried to let him sleep later last week and he was so mad I let him do that! So he gets 10-11 hours of sleep a night. He is just my moody kid. Always has been. But the Dr says he is healthy. His allergist is happy where he is. Which is why I just really don't know how to move forward with high school planning b/c unless his attitude changes drastically I just don't think he's going to do the work. Well, not without a lot of family strife and drama. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinzen Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 My first thought: Is he doing Geometry in 8th grade? Has he done Algebra I? If so, I'd slow down. Sounds advanced. He might not be ready even though he's capable of higher math, it may be too overwhelming. I know it's hard, but try not to compare your kids. My daughter most likely could do her brothers grade work, except math, and she's only in 6th grade. We use IEW too, ( though we are using continuation B course) I would focus on how he has progressed in last 2 years and keep going, even if you have to slow down a bit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teachermom2834 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 With my kid like this outsourcing was the only solution. He does pretty well with online and co-op classes though he does get off track. He'll be doing great and then I will check and see that he has started missing assignments and I have to sit on him more until he gets focused again. Then he will be doing great and I'll think we have turned a corner and then he slides again. He complains and says he hates school but he really does okay with outsourced classes. He just seems a little immature and overall more moody than my other kids. I wish I didn't have to outsource so much for him but it is the only way. Homeschooling him was just drama every day. Either he was complaining or misleading me about what he had completed, etc. He really does okay outsourcing. Not sure if that applies to your situation or not but I can't see it any other way for my moody uninterested (but smart!) kid. With outsourced classes, even when his work slips, it is much less confrontational. When I log in and see he has missed work or getting poor grades it isn't as personal. I can take the approach of "hey, looks like you struggling. How can I help you? ". Outsourcing has put us on the same team and that has helped tremendously. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share Posted November 11, 2015 well I tried to slow math down. I tried repeating algebra. He wanted to move on. He did well in algebra. he knows the stuff and is acing the algebra review sections. He knows he is ahead in math. But so far unwilling to go slower. I think his younger sister being right behind him drives this. and I am on board with outsourcing. Until now I haven't wanted to spend the money in case he decides to just not do it. He's doing a computer application class this year and has done great with it. I rarely have to check the calendar, he's on top of it all. And enjoying it. He adds in a foreign language class overview this spring, and being more academic(more homework) I will take note of how he does. I am open to outsourcing or doing a part time tutoring school situation. He doesn't want that. He wants to be here. With me. But it's not working out from my viewpoint with all the whining. I will try to talk to him again about taking more online classes. I think that would be great, he's not so convinced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 My oldest struggles with staying on task. She does a LOT better with online classes (although she still needs help with staying focused). She needs someone besides mom to give her feedback and give her hard deadlines. She is getting so much more work done since I started outsourcing. Now I just help her manage her time, keep track of her assignments, study for tests, and give help as needed. I think she just needed her learning circle expanded to include more people than just mom/sister. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I don't know about planning high school, but see if you can buy a copy of Cashflow 101. Also, he might like a permaculture or straw bale building course if you have stuff like that around. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Here's one option to consider: the no-choice, school is what you do option. Some people don't love school or their jobs but they just need to get through it to enjoy their spare time. He sounds well on his way to an advanced curriculum, so you could just pick out the IB or accelerated program from your local school and go through it one by one and present it as, "It's okay not to like it but you have to do it; this is a program that is set out and that many kids of your ability are doing; no it's not fun and I'm not going to make it fun; if you want fun then think of your own high school curriculum. Otherwise this is it." And then just shovel through. I don't think every kid knows what they want to do at 8th grade. Some people just want a 9 - 5 that has good vacation days and can earn them money to buy a house that their lovely wife and kids will enjoy living in with them so they can watch football there on Sundays while the kids play outside under the sprinkler. There is nothing wrong with that! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetC Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I don't know if the the problem is medical, but it certainly sounds non-academic. Does he get out of the house enough to activities? Particularly activities with lots of boys or men (sports, scouting, hanging out with Uncle Mike who works on cars, etc?) If he's not into group sports, there are individual sports like track or swimming, where he would be around boys but still have space as an individual. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Just a few things-- Is he using the 3rd edition of Jacobs Geometry? Because if so, it is *completely* different from Jacobs Algebra. The 2nd edition is much more in line with Jacobs Algebra than the 3rd. I *love love love* Jacobs Algebra, and I can't deal with the 3rd edition geometry book. So if he's having trouble with geometry but he did well with algebra, that could be the reason. As for the rest of it--I know you said that he has input into what materials he is using, but I have to say, I don't think kids are really that great at knowing what materials will work for them. When he moved from Easy Grammar to Rod and Staff, was it because Rod and Staff seemed like the least worst of the two or did he have other choices--MCT for example? I would put some serious thought into what you think is important in your kids' education and how the materials your are using are supporting those goals. If you can meet those goals by using more engaging materials and/or approaches, that would probably help a lot. I'd also look at reducing the amount of formal curriculum materials you use (like, possibly, ditching Rod and Staff, VFCR, and Reading Detective--I'm not kidding, I mean ditching them completely and not replacing them with anything) and increasing "living" books, experiences, films, etc, that you don't require any formal output about. Unless he likes IEW, I'd think about replacing it with something that encourages him to develop his own voice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetC Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 As for the rest of it--I know you said that he has input into what materials he is using, but I have to say, I don't think kids are really that great at knowing what materials will work for them. Word. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Do you think his goal of buying land and living off of it is real? Around here, the CCs have agricultural degrees. Can you find out what he'd need in high school to get into a college that offers an agricultural degree? Could his science classes be about farming and farm animals? Could his math classes be about creating a small business (to sell his honey and extra crops and homemade soap?) Some sort of consumer math, but not because he's not smart, but because he'll need a decent head for business. Even the pioneers went into town and sold their goods for things they couldn't make for themselves. It's very hard to be truly self-sufficient without finding a way to earn some actual cash for goods you can't make. I'm not sure if all that is pie in the sky type stuff, but if I were you, I'd take a hard look at doing those things. Maybe not for everything, but for enough to spark interest in him. I'm not sure how to tell you to present it. I'd suspect that if you come on too strong, he'll buck you. I would start by finding out what colleges teach to future farmers and then consider whether you could start teaching that in high school. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 He has no career aspirations. He wants to work long enough (who knows in what) to get enough money to buy land, guns, a dog, and live off the land. He isn't listening to practicality at this point. That's a path that actually works in some places, odd as it sounds. There are people who have ranches out west and earn their living as hunting guides. Hmm, can't do military with scoliosis, I wouldn't think. Has he taken gun safety and learned to shoot? Has he gotten good? That's something with job potential. Might be a place to start. You could get him a gift certificate to a shooting range for Christmas. You could even start with something totally different, like bow, if he hasn't done that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Do you think his goal of buying land and living off of it is real? Around here, the CCs have agricultural degrees. Can you find out what he'd need in high school to get into a college that offers an agricultural degree? Could his science classes be about farming and farm animals? Could his math classes be about creating a small business (to sell his honey and extra crops and homemade soap?) Some sort of consumer math, but not because he's not smart, but because he'll need a decent head for business. Even the pioneers went into town and sold their goods for things they couldn't make for themselves. It's very hard to be truly self-sufficient without finding a way to earn some actual cash for goods you can't make. I'm not sure if all that is pie in the sky type stuff, but if I were you, I'd take a hard look at doing those things. Maybe not for everything, but for enough to spark interest in him. I'm not sure how to tell you to present it. I'd suspect that if you come on too strong, he'll buck you. I would start by finding out what colleges teach to future farmers and then consider whether you could start teaching that in high school. Bouncing off of this, I'd consider touring a few colleges that offer majors that might move him towards his goals. He'd begin to get an understanding as to what opportunities may be available to him in a college setting, and he'd get info from "not-mom" as to what may be needed to prepare for one of these majors. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 We don't own land ourselves. He has done several gun classes and can shoot. He gets the just gotta do it talk often. He was offered to just read, study his interests, but he declined. He wants to sleep and play lego. Which is why I am clueless how to proceed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenn- Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I have one like your son. She's a tenth grader that whines off and on all day long about doing her school. I still expect her to get it done or face the consequences. We have never changed curriculum just because she didn't find it fun. Your son appears to want to be at home. That is your leverage. It's time to sit down and have a serious talk with him. He is old enough to be told to buck up and get it done or be prepared to go to school because you are sick of hearing about it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 I agree its time to do the work. Changing stuff hasn't solved issues in the past. It is just hard on me with the push back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I agree its time to do the work. Changing stuff hasn't solved issues in the past. It is just hard on me with the push back.It sounds like his idea of buying land, a gun, and a dog isn't a real goal then, but a dim daydream. Here in PA, I can enroll the kids in something like K12 for free. Do you have an option to do something like that? Where you get the free computer and the free curriculum from the school and he reports somewhat to a teacher? You still administer things, but he just does what all the other kids in your state do and it's not something you picked out and there's a teacher that he's supposed to submit completed work to. Some states don't have the option for that to be free, so this might not work for you. It's not the fun of homeschooling a curric tailor made to a student, but it's at least an education that keeps him on track for college. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I agree its time to do the work. Changing stuff hasn't solved issues in the past. It is just hard on me with the push back. BTDT twice. I find the ages of 13-16 very tough. I'm a "make them do it anyway" sort of homeschooler when it comes to basic academics (reading, writing, math, plus content stuff), but the pushback is difficult. I just quietly and steadily (and wearily) plod on while also providing freedom for whatever their definition of "fun" is for any given day. I hear you about unwittingly having made things "unfun," lol. I think it's just all part of the deal of teens starting to define themselves apart from us. Hang in there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 thanks everyone. I don't know what path we will go. Less curriculum, more push, who knows. I am trying hard not to let his emotions get the best of me. Being stoic when I am raging inside is exhausting. There is a level of negativity that he has always had. It feels like more, but I think that his his age/hormones coming out. He will see his Dr in Jan where I will plan to talk to the guy about what is normal moods vs defiance vs depression. Like I said, I am willing to change things up, but this kid just wants to do nothing. So we will keep encouraging him to make progress in what he chose for this year. And try to get him to commit to things this spring for high school, or we will probably put him in a tutoring situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think what might be useful is to facilitate that boat making project to really happen - that or another practical project. I really think that teens, both male and female, need opportunities to plan and create tangible things. My dd's project is caring for and training our pets (cats and dogs). My ds (and dd to a little lesser degree) are involved in our home renovations (i.e., removing carpeting, installing flooring, painting prep). The regular physical labour is important, as is having a finished project to enjoy. All the dc also have regular physical sports/activities and musical instruments, and have had or still have theatre groups. Without a balance of other physical and creative outlets, academics is just too dry and lifeless, IME. There is so much learning and life skills developed through doing interesting projects. My 2 nephews are re-building their own cars, and this seems to be really frequent project for fathers and sons. If it's not a good fit, then see if your dh and ds can find something that interests them both and has a real, practical value. The learning and working together will be wonderful for them both. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 He is currently planning a 'fort'. He has a rough drawing and is working on a construction model. Then he will have $300 to build this creation. The problem lies in he has this idea. he doesn't want to do the planning before we buy materials. Soon as he has his material list with model ready, he can start building. Let's just say he hasn't made much progress. The offer has been around for a year. I actually found a theater class for winter and am hoping he will want to join that. Maybe with something fun he will have more motivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Is he more of a hands on guy? Maybe he doesn't need a plan to start his fort. Maybe he will build an amazing fort if all he has is the rough drawing and the wood. Some people's brains work this way. I am wondering what his learning style is. Your current list of curriculum looks very rigorous, but, for instance, would be a terrible fit for my dd and would make her loathe school. If he is hands on, is there a way you can incorporate that? Winston Grammar? Konos? Something more hands on? If he loves to read, can he read real books and do some project on each of them instead of writing something? My dd's private (classical Christian) school for 8th grade let the kids build lego models sometimes for their book projects. My dd loved that. Just food for thought. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 It sounds like your expectations with the projects he shows interest in may not line up with his capabilities. At our vocational college, adults can sign up for building project courses where they learn to build something specific (e.g., a storage shed) and actually build one in the class. The leader provides the guidence and direction so that the students have success building a shed together, and then they can go out and do it on their own. I'm sure that there are people who can read about building a shed and enjoy figuring it out on their own, but there are definitely people who need more assistance. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Have you thought about lining up some male mentors for him? Some role models? Could your DH take more on? Multiple studies and common sense suggest that boys do better with male teAchers. That may be another area to look into. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Co-op classes would provide firmer deadlines, as well as peer pressure to keep up with the class, plus free you up to provide support rather than primary teaching and curriculum planning. Anything like that in your area? The shared misery of doing the big chemistry project or struggling with the algebra chapter can help some kids get through the tough stuff. Plus it provides a peer group of kids who, ideally, have goals and ambitions they are working towards. Mom saying "you need to do x, y, z for your future" isn't always as influential as being part of a group of friends who are figuring this stuff out. You need the right peers, obviously, but if you can find such a group, it could make a significant difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 He doesn't want to do a co-op or group teaching thing. Which is my issue. He wants to be here. But for 2 years it has been dramatic and I think it's time to do something else. I haven't wanted to spend the money on it in case he balks at the work. He says he doesn't want to do the work from a class. However, he is doing well in his computer application class online. I signed him up for the theater class for Jan...something fun to look forward to each week. My plan for next year right now is to find him outside teachers for math and english. Maybe science. I can teach it, but he does this very independently right now. He loves history and does this with no issues. And if he starts foreign language it will be online. If he starts Health/PE we will do that at home. So yes, my plan is to get a lot of classes online or at the local co-op. He would prefer online. I will decide when I see the local offerings in the spring. I really do appreciate the insight here. I do think he needs more projects. My goal this year is to offer that in some way. We will drop the vocabulary stuff and shift writing to a looser schedule than we have been on. I don't mean to back off load wise, but he wants time to do this building thing and I want to offer him that time. I can see him thriving with more projects and less bookwork. He even asked about making a poster board recently. So thank you for your advice and words of wisdom. Hopefully I can get him back to a place he enjoys the learning we do. Or at least tailor things to his preference better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I have been dealing with similar issues (though not the exact same form) with my 13.5 year old, including that he loves history and does that on his own. I think hormones may play a part, testing limits, a little depression, not a single simple cause. I am starting to use some outside activities he likes both because of concern that boredom was real and that he needed more social for emotional reasons, and also now as leverage. He managed to get 2 hours and 15 min of math done yesterday morning to be able to go to co-op and skating. Today he is wiped out though. And besides not getting any schoolwork done has not gotten chores done, and has been ill-tempered and surly and unwilling to help when requested. My guess is that this next week he will not be able to go to either skating or co-op as a consequence that he was not able to handle this week without these problems. It would at least take an amazing transformation for the rest of the week for me to consider it. I do wish co-op were on a Friday so that it did not have a school day afterward to get wiped out. I think there is a certain amount of legitimacy in his simply and truly being tired. He even went to bed last night at 8, and was asleep by about 8:15. Then he woke at 6AM today, but unable to function well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 thanks everyone. I don't know what path we will go. Less curriculum, more push, who knows. I am trying hard not to let his emotions get the best of me. Being stoic when I am raging inside is exhausting. There is a level of negativity that he has always had. It feels like more, but I think that his his age/hormones coming out. He will see his Dr in Jan where I will plan to talk to the guy about what is normal moods vs defiance vs depression. Like I said, I am willing to change things up, but this kid just wants to do nothing. So we will keep encouraging him to make progress in what he chose for this year. And try to get him to commit to things this spring for high school, or we will probably put him in a tutoring situation. All of your posts have me thinking that depression is more of a problem than you've realized. Depression in kids doesn't always look like we expect it to. If you are going to the doctor, try to get a recommendation for a good pediatric psychiatrist. You can see anger, defiance, negativity, increased sleep, avoidance of social situations, but often enough you don't see sad. The age and hormones will make a chronic low-level depression become more obvious. It's hard but I'd try to focus this year on getting a better understanding of his difficulties. I have an 8th grader with a history of depression who is home again this year. My goal is to work on everything I can this year so that she can start high school with her best food forward. She's in therapy, started ADHD meds for the first time, had an OT eval, and will have a learning eval soon. She was reluctant to get help in the past but now that she's willing, I'm going to cover all the bases. She is bright but very unmotivated and that makes schooling very hard. I know the difficulties won't just go away no matter what we do, but I hope to find a way to manage them better. I'm holding out for the time that she finds what she really loves. My oldest dd also had depression, and even her therapist didn't realize it. Once it was treated, it made a big difference, but even that didn't have the impact that finding her passion did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 We don't own land ourselves. He has done several gun classes and can shoot. He gets the just gotta do it talk often. He was offered to just read, study his interests, but he declined. He wants to sleep and play lego. Which is why I am clueless how to proceed. It's the age. My dd didn't turn human till 14. Now at 16 she's self-driven and amazing. I'd just give it a year. Keep feeding him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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