OK, this is a grim online class...

[G5052]

I started teaching online classes again this fall after a break of several years. I'm teaching a sophomore-level class web development class where they develop a business or non-profit site from scratch, frankly a pretty tough one. I took a similar one face-to-face six years ago to expand my capabilities, and it kept me very busy. I'm given the course shell and just grade and answer questions. The content is actually standardized at the state level, so I don't have a lot of leeway with it at all.

 

When I taught online before, only about 50% of my students would complete the class. Sad, but I enjoyed it.

 

For this one, I started with twelve.

 

Then it went down to eight after the first week.

 

Then four after the first checkpoint when they have to have certain assignments in or be dropped.

 

They had multiple deadlines last weekend, but I offered to give them to the next checkpoint because the volume of assignments was significant.

 

Then I just graded all of their websites and hid the grade column so that I'm ready for the next checkpoint.

 

I probably am going to be down to one student. Another one is 3/4 there, but they haven't been on the course website in awhile, so I'm not hopeful. We have three weeks left after the upcoming checkpoint.

 

I just emailed the professor that I took this over from to see if this is the norm. The content is actually really good. But the gradebook is GRIM!

 

Watch out for those online classes...

 

 

[regentrude]

I am sorry. That must be so disheartening.

[Nan in Mass]

Wow. How sad! Do you know how many finished the face-to-face class that you took? I keep thinking that online classes should be an ok way of teaching some subjects, but I guess the reality is that too many students work for other people, not themselves. Which might be a good thing for the human race but does not help when one is making time management choices which involve choosing between live people and computers. Is the solution to make you, the prof, more obviously a real live person with feelings to the students? That sounds like emotional manipulation... Or is it more that having regular lectures every few days to keep the class higher on the students' priority list? Or is it that you can provide more feedback face to face and head off problems? Or what?

 

Nan

[SparklyUnicorn]

My math instructor claims this is typical.  On the first day of class he asked people to write down their backgrounds (stuff like why you are taking the course and what your goals are).  He said several wrote down that they were there because of a failed attempt at the on-line version.

 

I was planning to take the next course on-line.  Now I'm not sure! 

[kiana]

It's not really because taking a class online is so terrible. Students who are self-motivated and seek help when they don't understand tend to do just fine. 

 

Students who loathe/fear the subject and would rather do anything else other than the subject (especially common in math) tend to put it off a lot more when there isn't a class to go to. So they tend to do much worse than in face-to-face classes.

 

Also, many people who just need a degree but really don't have time to go to school sign up for online classes, not realizing that there actually IS a time commitment. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's not really because taking a class online is so terrible. Students who are self-motivated and seek help when they don't understand tend to do just fine. 

 

Students who loathe/fear the subject and would rather do anything else other than the subject (especially common in math) tend to put it off a lot more when there isn't a class to go to. So they tend to do much worse than in face-to-face classes.

 

Also, many people who just need a degree but really don't have time to go to school sign up for online classes, not realizing that there actually IS a time commitment. 

 

Yeah I think I'd do fine with on-line.  Being a homeschooler, I have learned to be motivated and willing to find the answers when I don't understand something.  So this isn't much of a stretch for me.

 

 

[Reefgazer]

I've noticed this in my classes, as well.  It's always been much more of a problem at my school in online classes than face to face classes, for exactly the reasons Kiana mentioned.  However, over the course of 13 years I have been teaching, I have seen a general degradation in satisfactory course completion across the board; it's just always been more pronounced in online classes.  It's troubling, and I am embarrassed to admit it, but my school encourages it by catering to the lowest common denominator (they are desperate for tuition dollars).  It seems the more grace students get in their assignments, the worse they get in competing the work satisfactorily and on time.  I do not see this phenomenon with high performing students, but I do see it with lower-tier students.  It's depressing and discouraging and I don't see it changing anytime soon. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've noticed this in my classes, as well.  It's always been much more of a problem at my school in online classes than face to face classes, for exactly the reasons Kiana mentioned.  However, over the course of 13 years I have been teaching, I have seen a general degradation in satisfactory course completion across the board; it's just always been more pronounced in online classes.  It's troubling, and I am embarrassed to admit it, but my school encourages it by catering to the lowest common denominator (they are desperate for tuition dollars).  It seems the more grace students get in their assignments, the worse they get in competing the work satisfactorily and on time.  I do not see this phenomenon with high performing students, but I do see it with lower-tier students.  It's depressing and discouraging and I don't see it changing anytime soon. 

 

Yeah I've noticed my instructor has watered stuff down further in response to the general performance of the class.  I don't have any business judging anyone on that because for one thing I have plenty of time to work on stuff.  It seems many others don't.  Then again I find it kind of ridiculous that even after all the grace he gives on stuff that there are still people who don't do it.  He originally intended to give a weekly homework assignment.  And I find that helpful because it gives me additional problems to practice.  Well now we get one less than every two weeks.  Class time on test days were half new material and half test (we only meet once a week).  Now he goes over how to do the problems on the test and then hands out the test.  So we are covering even less material. 

 

A bit frustrating. 

[G5052]

Wow. How sad! Do you know how many finished the face-to-face class that you took? I keep thinking that online classes should be an ok way of teaching some subjects, but I guess the reality is that too many students work for other people, not themselves. Which might be a good thing for the human race but does not help when one is making time management choices which involve choosing between live people and computers. Is the solution to make you, the prof, more obviously a real live person with feelings to the students? That sounds like emotional manipulation... Or is it more that having regular lectures every few days to keep the class higher on the students' priority list? Or is it that you can provide more feedback face to face and head off problems? Or what?

 

Nan

 

I actually emailed a face-to-face instructor to see, and she said that it runs around 50% for her. I haven't heard back from the professor that I took this over from.

 

I shouldn't be surprised because as I noted before, the drop-off was pretty bad when I last did this, but that was also a fairly easy, entry-level course. And I've taught a lot of students in face-to-face and hybrid classes who had either dropped or failed the online version.

 

I personally like online courses because I'm self-motivated, and I can knock one out pretty quickly if I need to. This college that I'm teaching for uses standardized shells that are 100% available on the first day, and I've knocked out a full course in 4 weeks before from them.

 

I send out reminders and tips every few days and am very active on the discussion boards, both the required and "ask the professor" ones.

 

I guess it's just part of the territory. If they won't invest the time, they're not going to make it. 

 

My oldest has done face-to-face, hybrid, and online, and he won't take online. He feels like they take much more time than being in a classroom and are more frustrating. He has two hybrids this semester and likes that because he feels like they're very efficient. They meet once a week for 2 hours. Next semester he'll have one full face-to-face, three hybrids, and one online because this school doesn't offer it.

[Bootsie]

DH teaches at a private, traditional university.  As they have added online classes, they have found that the completion rate is less than 50%, much lower than the completion rate of the same students when they take in-person courses.  It appeared that the least prepared students were electing to take online courses in the areas they thought they would have the most difficulty.  Or students thought that they could take a course during the summer while they were on vacation.  Also, he realized he was getting a high percentage of students who failed the course before, were behind in their degree plan, and were trying to catch up.  Taking an online class requires a lot of self-discipline, self-motivation, and self-teaching.  They had the students who were least likely to be successful in that environment self-selecting to take courses (and the ones they were least likely to be successful in) online.

[MarkT]

 

Also, many people who just need a degree but really don't have time to go to school sign up for online classes, not realizing that there actually IS a time commitment. 

America has become degree-crazy even when the job does not require it.  Many students think that the online classes will be easier then they actually turn out to be.

The for-profit college TV commercials help foster this myth. 

 

In the end, the course has to have some meaningful measures to earn college credit.

[kiana]

DH teaches at a private, traditional university.  As they have added online classes, they have found that the completion rate is less than 50%, much lower than the completion rate of the same students when they take in-person courses.  It appeared that the least prepared students were electing to take online courses in the areas they thought they would have the most difficulty.  Or students thought that they could take a course during the summer while they were on vacation.  Also, he realized he was getting a high percentage of students who failed the course before, were behind in their degree plan, and were trying to catch up.  Taking an online class requires a lot of self-discipline, self-motivation, and self-teaching.  They had the students who were least likely to be successful in that environment self-selecting to take courses (and the ones they were least likely to be successful in) online.

 

Yep. Also for some reason, a bunch of people think that they can take a full load of f2f classes at one school and then knock out an "easy" online class at a community college at the same time. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know if this is typical, but the school I am going to now requires one to log into an on-line class at least 6 hours per week.  Granted, anyone can log in and just walk away, but yeah they do have minimal requirements for that.

 

 

[regentrude]

My math instructor claims this is typical.  On the first day of class he asked people to write down their backgrounds (stuff like why you are taking the course and what your goals are).  He said several wrote down that they were there because of a failed attempt at the on-line version.

 

I was planning to take the next course on-line.  Now I'm not sure! 

 

For motivated students, online can be a great tool.

 

My online sections are performing below the in seat sections (actually, the online is hybrid: they only have the lectures online and still have in seat recitations twice a week). I believe I have identified the following factors:

 

1. Students have trouble staying focused when they are on their computer. They may 'watch" the lectures, but are doing other things simultaneously.

2. Students who do not have the discipline to attend classes regularly choose the online option because they think this is "easier". So, there is a self-selection: students who have trouble with work ethic prefer online over in seat. Of my online section, only 10% of students self report that they read the assigned reading - compared with (a still low) 25% in the in seat classes.

3. Students who have issues with work ethic and don't stay on top of things sign up late for classes when the in seat sections have filled up (you would not believe the number of students who realize in August that they failed the course in the spring semester - they never bothered to check their grades which were posted in May!). So, because of that the online course has a higher proportion of students who are repeating the course because they failed previously.

 

A student who chooses to be in an online section and does the work diligently has as much as a chance of a student in the in seat section to be successful - there is nothing intrinsically poorer quality about the online class. The problem is that the low end students feel drawn towards the online course, and that good students may have trouble staying focused. Knowing the danger of the latter, it should be easy to avoid. There is no reason for you not to try the online course.

[regentrude]

DH teaches at a private, traditional university.  As they have added online classes, they have found that the completion rate is less than 50%, much lower than the completion rate of the same students when they take in-person courses.  It appeared that the least prepared students were electing to take online courses in the areas they thought they would have the most difficulty.  Or students thought that they could take a course during the summer while they were on vacation.  Also, he realized he was getting a high percentage of students who failed the course before, were behind in their degree plan, and were trying to catch up.  Taking an online class requires a lot of self-discipline, self-motivation, and self-teaching.  They had the students who were least likely to be successful in that environment self-selecting to take courses (and the ones they were least likely to be successful in) online.

 

The bolded agrees completely with my observations.

[Wheres Toto]

I finished my degrees online through Thomas Edison State College.  I had about 3/4 of my credits through more traditional methods and transferred in but I had about 40-50 credits to do online or through testing to finish up.  I chose TESC because I was working full time, newly divorced and had a child.  

 

People take online courses because they think it's going to be easier.  Quite often it's not.  It requires a LOT of self-discipline, time management and independence.  Some "meet" regularly and that can help but some you just answer a few assignments, take a couple tests.  There's nobody to remind you of things, it can be difficult to get questions answered, and at least in my case, I had to make my own arrangements to set up an appointment at an approved testing facility to take my exams during the required time period.  

 

I think they are a great option for someone who is really motivated, will keep up with the work and can self-teach from a book or website.  Otherwise, even very good students can really struggle.

 

My oldest attempted one online class last semester.  She ended up dropping it.  She's a very good student but she needs the constant accountability of having to go to class at a set time on a regular basis in order to keep up with things.  I warned her it probably wasn't going to be an "easy A" but she wanted to give it a try.

 

I wonder how TESC compares to other online options, as far as completion rates.  They are geared to adults who are already working, may have some credit but can't do traditional school for various reasons (I know military is one segment).

[Nan in Mass]

So maybe this says something about people who have completed online degrees (not just the occasional class).  One tends to think of the degrees as not as complete as in seat degrees, since one tends to think of them as lacking discussion and other "extras", but perhaps, instead, one ought to think of the people who actually manage to complete them as especially motivated, self-disciplined, and organized, with the ability to teach themselves and figure things out.

 

Nan

[regentrude]

So maybe this says something about people who have completed online degrees (not just the occasional class).  One tends to think of the degrees as not as complete as in seat degrees, since one tends to think of them as lacking discussion and other "extras", but perhaps, instead, one ought to think of the people who actually manage to complete them as especially motivated, self-disciplined, and organized, with the ability to teach themselves and figure things out.

 

Yes - IF the class content has not been watered down to cater to the large percentage of students who lack prerequisites and skills, and IF the subject can be even taught online without a necessary hands-on component (an engineering degree completed online with only virtual labs and no hands-on experience? No way.)

[Nan in Mass]

Yes - IF the class content has not been watered down to cater to the large percentage of students who lack prerequisites and skills, and IF the subject can be even taught online without a necessary hands-on component (an engineering degree completed online with only virtual labs and no hands-on experience? No way.)

 

... which is a pretty big if...

[Reefgazer]

I don't know if it is like this everywhere, but the dumbing down is being driven by administrators who want high pass rates, even at the expense of competency.

Yeah I've noticed my instructor has watered stuff down further in response to the general performance of the class.  I don't have any business judging anyone on that because for one thing I have plenty of time to work on stuff.  It seems many others don't.  Then again I find it kind of ridiculous that even after all the grace he gives on stuff that there are still people who don't do it.  He originally intended to give a weekly homework assignment.  And I find that helpful because it gives me additional problems to practice.  Well now we get one less than every two weeks.  Class time on test days were half new material and half test (we only meet once a week).  Now he goes over how to do the problems on the test and then hands out the test.  So we are covering even less material. 

 

A bit frustrating. 

 

[Reefgazer]

I see this, as well.  At our school, it is a lack of academic advisors (they can't pay for them) to advise students of a prudent course load.  There is also reluctance on the part of the advisors who are available to strongly encourage a weak student to take a lighter class load, and a reluctance to refuse entry of weak students into online classes.

DH teaches at a private, traditional university.  As they have added online classes, they have found that the completion rate is less than 50%, much lower than the completion rate of the same students when they take in-person courses.  It appeared that the least prepared students were electing to take online courses in the areas they thought they would have the most difficulty.  Or students thought that they could take a course during the summer while they were on vacation.  Also, he realized he was getting a high percentage of students who failed the course before, were behind in their degree plan, and were trying to catch up.  Taking an online class requires a lot of self-discipline, self-motivation, and self-teaching.  They had the students who were least likely to be successful in that environment self-selecting to take courses (and the ones they were least likely to be successful in) online.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know if it is like this everywhere, but the dumbing down is being driven by administrators who want high pass rates, even at the expense of competency.

 

Although, he told us that the college expects the grade distribution to be mostly bell shaped.  So at least there they are not told to specifically dumb stuff down.  I just think after the first exam it was so skewed to the lower end that maybe he was concerned too many people would do lousy and/or fail. 

[Reefgazer]

Ours has a similar requirement (not as rigorous though), with instructions to drop students who do not meet that minimum standard.  When I drop students for this reason I do not re-admit them to that class, but the dean we had previously just added them back in if they complained and over-rode my decision on that.  We have a new dean now, so maybe that will change.

I don't know if this is typical, but the school I am going to now requires one to log into an on-line class at least 6 hours per week.  Granted, anyone can log in and just walk away, but yeah they do have minimal requirements for that.

 

[Reefgazer]

We are told not to dumb them down either, but when an instructor looks at who gets tenure, who gets promotions, and who does not get their contracts renewed, the instructors get the message quickly about what they have to do to keep their jobs. 

Although, he told us that the college expects the grade distribution to be mostly bell shaped.  So at least there they are not told to specifically dumb stuff down.  I just think after the first exam it was so skewed to the lower end that maybe he was concerned too many people would do lousy and/or fail. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't think they ever drop people.  Of course it would be in a person's best interest to drop it rather than fail, but yeah.

 

He isn't one of the better instructors I've had.  I think I will avoid taking any of his classes again. 

 

I'd love to take classes at the university in the city, but I can't afford $3500 per class!

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

  At our school, it is a lack of academic advisors (they can't pay for them) to advise students of a prudent course load.

 

So at your school it is not part of the faculty's job to advise students? We do not get paid for advising - advising is one of the service activities that are part of our jobs. It does not cost the school an extra penny.

 

(I just spent four afternoons this week in advising sessions....we require every major to attend advising once per semester before registering for classes.)

[Tsuga]

I started teaching online classes again this fall after a break of several years. I'm teaching a sophomore-level class web development class where they develop a business or non-profit site from scratch, frankly a pretty tough one. I took a similar one face-to-face six years ago to expand my capabilities, and it kept me very busy. I'm given the course shell and just grade and answer questions. The content is actually standardized at the state level, so I don't have a lot of leeway with it at all.

 

When I taught online before, only about 50% of my students would complete the class. Sad, but I enjoyed it.

 

For this one, I started with twelve.

 

Then it went down to eight after the first week.

 

Then four after the first checkpoint when they have to have certain assignments in or be dropped.

 

They had multiple deadlines last weekend, but I offered to give them to the next checkpoint because the volume of assignments was significant.

 

Then I just graded all of their websites and hid the grade column so that I'm ready for the next checkpoint.

 

I probably am going to be down to one student. Another one is 3/4 there, but they haven't been on the course website in awhile, so I'm not hopeful. We have three weeks left after the upcoming checkpoint.

 

I just emailed the professor that I took this over from to see if this is the norm. The content is actually really good. But the gradebook is GRIM!

 

Watch out for those online classes...

 

What are the entry requirements / barriers?

 

Our local colleges have started to implement much more serious barriers to entry for online degree programs or upper-level programs because of the dropout rate. Too many people sign up on a whim!

 

We have also instituted policies on keeping up with work or dropping you, and personal follow-up e-mails for students who are not completing assignments.

 

 

 

So at your school it is not part of the faculty's job to advise students? We do not get paid for advising - advising is one of the service activities that are part of our jobs. It does not cost the school an extra penny.

 

Well, you could learn something from our faculty union that flips the hell out when faculty are asked to advise students.

[Reefgazer]

Faculty are informal advisors at my school (we are not assigned to a group of students, but mentor those in our classes).  Instead, each student is formally assigned an advisor when they are admitted, and that advisor is supposed to guide the student through the registration process and advise them when they need accommodations, have financial problems with their financial aid, etc... 

 

I didn't think this arrangement was odd until you just brought it up.  Then I started thinking about how I had a faculty member in my major for my undergrad and graduate degrees and realize that this is unusual.  I guess I'll have to attribute that to the fact I work at a community college.

So at your school it is not part of the faculty's job to advise students? We do not get paid for advising - advising is one of the service activities that are part of our jobs. It does not cost the school an extra penny.

 

(I just spent four afternoons this week in advising sessions....we require every major to attend advising once per semester before registering for classes.)

 

[regentrude]

Well, you could learn something from our faculty union that flips the hell out when faculty are asked to advise students.

 

That is ridiculous.

Who else should advise students? Some administrator with no academic background and no insight into the degree program and who cannot judge the difficulty of the individual courses or the demands of a particular major?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah oddly faculty are not advisors at the CC I go to.  They have full time people that just sit there all day advising students.  Very bizarre.  At the uni my advisors were always faculty.  I suppose part of the issue at the CC is they don't have many full time instructors. 

 

I had to go to an advisor to get a signature that I met the prereq.  She didn't require me to demonstrate that and signed it based solely on the fact I was not matriculating and paying for the course out of my own pocket.  Still I had to go to the advisement center, take a number, and wait to be called in so she could simply sign a piece of paper. 

 

On another note, I think part of the problem with on-line courses for some people is generally we aren't taught to be self starters in school.  They spoon feed us and micromanage our time.  Even despite that some people don't get their act together.  It's mind boggling. 

[G5052]

What are the entry requirements / barriers?

 

Our local colleges have started to implement much more serious barriers to entry for online degree programs or upper-level programs because of the dropout rate. Too many people sign up on a whim!

 

We have also instituted policies on keeping up with work or dropping you, and personal follow-up e-mails for students who are not completing assignments.

 

 

Well, you could learn something from our faculty union that flips the hell out when faculty are asked to advise students.

 

LOL. It's a community college, but this is actually a sophomore-level class. There are two prerequisites to it, but frankly they're pretty easy prerequisites. If you take them face-to-face, they're mostly taught lab-style where you complete some of the assignments there if you attend every class and work hard.

 

I think it's the online format. We say: read this, watch this, and do this. That's hard.

 

There are warnings where they can still get things in, but not for full credit.

 

And there are drops if they are missing any of a group of assignments by a certain date.

 

My section that looked like it might go to one looks like it may be two. A warned student emailed me an hour ago that she was nearly done and should finish tonight. She had a lot to do when I sent the warning, but we'll see.

[G5052]

Yeah oddly faculty are not advisors at the CC I go to.  They have full time people that just sit there all day advising students.  Very bizarre.  At the uni my advisors were always faculty.  I suppose part of the issue at the CC is they don't have many full time instructors. 

 

Mine does a mixture of both. They have some general advisors for first semester and undeclared students. Other than that, you have to go to a faculty advisor if at all possible.

[Nan in Mass]

I actually emailed a face-to-face instructor to see, and she said that it runs around 50% for her. I haven't heard back from the professor that I took this over from.

 

I shouldn't be surprised because as I noted before, the drop-off was pretty bad when I last did this, but that was also a fairly easy, entry-level course. And I've taught a lot of students in face-to-face and hybrid classes who had either dropped or failed the online version.

 

I personally like online courses because I'm self-motivated, and I can knock one out pretty quickly if I need to. This college that I'm teaching for uses standardized shells that are 100% available on the first day, and I've knocked out a full course in 4 weeks before from them.

 

I send out reminders and tips every few days and am very active on the discussion boards, both the required and "ask the professor" ones.

 

I guess it's just part of the territory. If they won't invest the time, they're not going to make it.

 

My oldest has done face-to-face, hybrid, and online, and he won't take online. He feels like they take much more time than being in a classroom and are more frustrating. He has two hybrids this semester and likes that because he feels like they're very efficient. They meet once a week for 2 hours. Next semester he'll have one full face-to-face, three hybrids, and one online because this school doesn't offer it.

Thinking of myself and my children... I think we find it easier to email or text people bad news, like not having gotten something done, than tell them face to face, even in cases when we know the person and know they will be disappointed and can picture their reaction to the email. It is much easier if we don,t know the person well. Facing someone in person who knows we have not done our homework is hard, even someone we barely know.

 

My boys have found the online component of their classes frustrating and time consuming as well. It isn,t the material. It is internet glitches, getting the answer into the right format, switching back and forth between the text and the problems and other pieces, and the small screen format, mostly. They have liked the infinite patience and infinite number of practice problems. They have liked their interactive textbooks, provided they also had a hard copy available. They are used to learning alone, though. I think many people learn better in packs? Or maybe learn isn,t quite the right word, since it seems like learning is often an individual struggle with the material. More motivated to learn in packs. Or part of learning is teaching. Or something.

 

Maybe the solution is study groups? We (me and mine) do much better when we belong to a good (good being the key word) study group. Maybe, if online and hybrid classes are to be successful, we need to train students about how to form a good study group, how to be part of one and make it work, and what makes them not work.

 

I wonder if there are lessons to be learned from the English tutorial system?

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I was interrupted writing the last post and went back and finished it later.

Nan

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am not thrilled with the on-line learning stuff.  I am taking a live class, but a good amount of the material is on-line.  I hate that the instructor randomly assigns homework whenever.  I have to log in every day to check (for a class I take once a week).  Homework is submitted on-line.  Most help I get is done via e-mail.

With that, I hardly see the difference between the live class and an on-line class.  In the dead of winter I think I will like not having to drive there. 

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I am not thrilled with the on-line learning stuff.  I am taking a live class, but a good amount of the material is on-line.  I hate that the instructor randomly assigns homework whenever.  I have to log in every day to check (for a class I take once a week).  Homework is submitted on-line.  Most help I get is done via e-mail.

With that, I hardly see the difference between the live class and an on-line class.  In the dead of winter I think I will like not having to drive there. 

 

Observing my ds's classes, I'm most happy with the courses that had all of the homework assignments listed in the syllabus and readily available in the online supplement from the beginning of class.

 

It is frustrating for him that the calculus class assignments aren't available until after the class meeting that covered the material.  He isn't even able to look ahead and see how many problems are assigned in order to know how much time to allocate to the course that week.  This class also doesn't have fixed dates for exams.  The instructor announced an exam with about 10 days notice, when he'd decided that they would be able to cover the material and have time to study.  Unfortunately ds had surgery scheduled for that day (it had been scheduled for a month).  A conflict that had to be worked through, but that could have been avoided if exam dates were on the syllabus.

 

Probably the most low grade irritating practice is assigning a set of online modules of grammar assignments.  The due date is simply the end of the course.  But then this instructor has also extended deadlines for every actual writing assignment too.  It's pretty frustrating to complete a writing assignment, only to have the instructor announce that he's giving everyone another week.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Observing my ds's classes, I'm most happy with the courses that had all of the homework assignments listed in the syllabus and readily available in the online supplement from the beginning of class.

 

It is frustrating for him that the calculus class assignments aren't available until after the class meeting that covered the material.  He isn't even able to look ahead and see how many problems are assigned in order to know how much time to allocate to the course that week.  This class also doesn't have fixed dates for exams.  The instructor announced an exam with about 10 days notice, when he'd decided that they would be able to cover the material and have time to study.  Unfortunately ds had surgery scheduled for that day (it had been scheduled for a month).  A conflict that had to be worked through, but that could have been avoided if exam dates were on the syllabus.

 

Probably the most low grade irritating practice is assigning a set of online modules of grammar assignments.  The due date is simply the end of the course.  But then this instructor has also extended deadlines for every actual writing assignment too.  It's pretty frustrating to complete a writing assignment, only to have the instructor announce that he's giving everyone another week.

 

What's crazy is that our instructor is equally lenient and there are still people who don't manage it.

 

At least with the homework though he does give plenty of time.  So he may assign it at odd times, but he'll give 2 weeks.  Although once he put up the homework and I completed it the same day and then he changed all of the problems the next day.  So I had to redo the entire thing.  *sigh*  Seriously....  I don't mind so much because I guess it was extra practice, but if my time were very limited I would not be amused. 

[MeghansMom]

I personally hate in-person classes. I loved online classes and did really well. I would not have been able to complete my degree if there had not been online classes. My daughter has multiple birth defects and I needed to be home for her, plus I had my own health issues. My husband has a work schedule where he cannot take classes in-person and has taken his classes online too. He does well and makes the dean's list.

[G5052]

Well, update time.

 

The checkpoint was Saturday, and I emailed the three students who were technically behind on Friday and told them that I'd be available over the weekend via email if they needed help. My checkpoint report is due today (Wednesday), and they allow me to give a few days if they're making progress and are in contact with me. If they miss the checkpoint at this point, they get a "W."

 

The one who was 3/4 done completed a little more and passed the checkpoint.

 

One who hadn't started the last phase of the project put in long hours on Saturday and finished with a little help from me.

 

The third sent me a screen shot of an error message on her computer on Monday. I emailed her that I need a functioning website or at least the zipped files so that I can look at it on my computer, and that I'm putting in the report today. Just checked, and nothing.

 

So three students after all! The one will receive a "W" at least. They have no more checkpoints, and everything is due in about 2 1/2 weeks.

 

The next section has their first checkpoint today with the report due Monday. So emails will go out today of course.

 

It's interesting all right!

[Scarlett]

I started teaching online classes again this fall after a break of several years. I'm teaching a sophomore-level class web development class where they develop a business or non-profit site from scratch, frankly a pretty tough one. I took a similar one face-to-face six years ago to expand my capabilities, and it kept me very busy. I'm given the course shell and just grade and answer questions. The content is actually standardized at the state level, so I don't have a lot of leeway with it at all.

 

When I taught online before, only about 50% of my students would complete the class. Sad, but I enjoyed it.

 

For this one, I started with twelve.

 

Then it went down to eight after the first week.

 

Then four after the first checkpoint when they have to have certain assignments in or be dropped.

 

They had multiple deadlines last weekend, but I offered to give them to the next checkpoint because the volume of assignments was significant.

 

Then I just graded all of their websites and hid the grade column so that I'm ready for the next checkpoint.

 

I probably am going to be down to one student. Another one is 3/4 there, but they haven't been on the course website in awhile, so I'm not hopeful. We have three weeks left after the upcoming checkpoint.

 

I just emailed the professor that I took this over from to see if this is the norm. The content is actually really good. But the gradebook is GRIM!

 

Watch out for those online classes...

My ds is a high school sophomore and it is the same with his classes. His Music Appreciation class is really not that difficult....mostly you have to turn in your work. A huge percentage of their grade comes from turn in a music log- either a listening log or practice log. This is a log of 20 mins per day 5 days a week. The teacher keeps sending out emails telling the students how many of them are failing and the main reason is they won't turn in their logs.

[Scarlett]

My ds15 hates, with a purple passion, to ask his teacher for help or clarification. He is accustomed to understanding content quickly and when he doesn't he delays or guesses. I have to FORCE him to write emails about the simplest things.

 

He is much the same way with his live classes.....he is not required to attend because he keeps his grades up, but I make him go when I see he is struggling with something. He has finally learned that attending a live class ( well he actually only ever

Is tens to the recording) of a review for a test is VERY helpful. He does that for Algebra 2 and Chemistry now without me making him.

 

A lot of kids fail the courses he is taking. A lot drop out. I think, especially with high school kids, no one is there to encourage and guide and crack the whip when needed and they just can't force them selves to do the work. I am hoping ds is learning how to get though material before he has to do it on his own.

[Lanny]

I found your post very interesting, because of the Attrition Rate and the subject matter.  DD had indicated an interest in our web sites and I suggested, and she is taking (9th grade) a Web Design course. The textbook they use is normally used in colleges/universities, where it is a one semester course. For DD, in High School, it is 2 semesters. The textbook they use is:

 

Felke-Morris, Terry. (2012). Web Development & Design Foundations with HTML5 (Sixth Edition). Boston, MA: Pearson Publishing. ISBN-13: 978-0-13-278339-2

 

I would be interested in seeing what the Attrition Rate is, for courses about other subjects

 

 

[G5052]

I found your post very interesting, because of the Attrition Rate and the subject matter.  DD had indicated an interest in our web sites and I suggested, and she is taking (9th grade) a Web Design course. The textbook they use is normally used in colleges/universities, where it is a one semester course. For DD, in High School, it is 2 semesters. The textbook they use is:

 

Felke-Morris, Terry. (2012). Web Development & Design Foundations with HTML5 (Sixth Edition). Boston, MA: Pearson Publishing. ISBN-13: 978-0-13-278339-2

 

I would be interested in seeing what the Attrition Rate is, for courses about other subjects

 

Yes, that's a pretty bad attrition rate. From 12 down to 3 in a sophomore-level course. But they develop an entire working website from scratch which includes making graphics in Photoshop and at least one Flash element. It's a lot of work, but if they're doing the web development concentration, it's obviously a critical one to complete.

 

In my basic computer literacy class, about 25% drop or stop coming. There we don't have the checkpoints where they're dropped if they don't turn things in.

[Lanny]

The majority of the comments in this thread have been, I believe, about Synchronous "Online" courses and many of the results are *not* good.  I can only wonder how those same students would do if they were taking Asynchronous "Online" courses. Much worse I believe...   I told DD that I believe that many students who are in university classrooms today could not successfully complete the courses she is taking now. Not because they cannot master the material, but because they lack Time Management skills, Self Discipline and Auto Motivation.   This is sad, because I believe the course content of the Asynchronous courses is probably much more thorough and without the flexibility of lowering the bar of what is required to pass the course successfully.

 

Many years ago, we knew a man who taught Physics in the Public university in the city of Cali. The best one. Then, the school went through a financial crises and he went to work at a Private university. He told us  that in the Public university, he could, if necessary, fail the entire class. As some comments in this thread mentioned, had he done that in the Private university, they would have gotten rid of him and kept the failing students and their money...

[regentrude]

 He told us  that in the Public university, he could, if necessary, fail the entire class. As some comments in this thread mentioned, had he done that in the Private university, they would have gotten rid of him and kept the failing students and their money...

 

I assure you that these days you could not  fail a major portion of a class at a public university, because they are extremely concerned with retention. The administration would strongly "encourage" you to lower your standards until a sufficient pass rate is achieved.

[kiana]

I assure you that these days you could not  fail a major portion of a class at a public university, because they are extremely concerned with retention. The administration would strongly "encourage" you to lower your standards until a sufficient pass rate is achieved.

 

We are continually getting flak for high failure rates in our classes, despite the immense number of statistics we have gathered to show that: 1) Our standards are minimal and essential, 2) The major reason for not passing is not attending and not turning stuff in. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

My instructor said they don't want to see everyone failing nor everyone getting As.  I do think he has made adjustments to influence results. 

[G5052]

The majority of the comments in this thread have been, I believe, about Synchronous "Online" courses and many of the results are *not* good.  I can only wonder how those same students would do if they were taking Asynchronous "Online" courses. Much worse I believe...   I told DD that I believe that many students who are in university classrooms today could not successfully complete the courses she is taking now. Not because they cannot master the material, but because they lack Time Management skills, Self Discipline and Auto Motivation.   This is sad, because I believe the course content of the Asynchronous courses is probably much more thorough and without the flexibility of lowering the bar of what is required to pass the course successfully.

 

Many years ago, we knew a man who taught Physics in the Public university in the city of Cali. The best one. Then, the school went through a financial crises and he went to work at a Private university. He told us  that in the Public university, he could, if necessary, fail the entire class. As some comments in this thread mentioned, had he done that in the Private university, they would have gotten rid of him and kept the failing students and their money...

 

The ones I teach online at the college level are indeed asynchronous. I have online office hours, but that's it for live interaction. I do think that's a factor.

 

At both public community colleges that I work for, they do monitor overall grades.

 

One recently started putting more pressure on us to pass more students in ways that I'm very unhappy with. I have other work though and will not be teaching for them in January. Too much pressure, and I'm weary of teaching at night.

 

The other's online courses are very standardized. As long as we're "active" in terms of posting announcements, answering questions, and grading, they don't put pressure on us at all. The grading is very structured with checklists, rubrics, clear answer keys, etc.

[Laura Corin]

So maybe this says something about people who have completed online degrees (not just the occasional class).  One tends to think of the degrees as not as complete as in seat degrees, since one tends to think of them as lacking discussion and other "extras", but perhaps, instead, one ought to think of the people who actually manage to complete them as especially motivated, self-disciplined, and organized, with the ability to teach themselves and figure things out.

 

Nan

 

I did my MBA by distance learning - on paper in those days.  It was massively more difficult to complete than my undergraduate degree, just because of the self-motivation required.

[lailasmum]

I've done a few online courses. Mostly I've not completed either because the number of hours was too high to complete it and way more than advertised (on that one I think the teacher had crammed in too much. Videos plus homework plus forum stuff was just far too many hours a week.) The other one I'm part way through but got bored of is far too basic and too repetitive. I might finish it at some point as it's fairly relaxed, but I don't think I'm learning anything.