Jenrae Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Have you had success with any supplement to help an older teen/young adult deal with sleep issues. It takes him hours to fall asleep. Sometimes he is just falling asleep when he hears the birds beginning to chirp! We know all the good sleep habit information, but it doesn't make much difference for him. He doesn't drink caffeine in the afternoon at all, and no sodas, or sweet drinks, but once a month or so. He has been using: melatonin, about 6-9 mg. magnesium What else is there? I recently listened to a medical seminar about using 5HTP for helping fibromyalgia patients sleep. I am considering trying this for a few weeks at least and gradually increasing the dose. Any other ideas? What have you used for a teenager or young adult? We planned to do a sleep study a year ago but he couldn't get to sleep early enought to actually take the test, so we couldn't do the test. (You have to go to sleep by 11:00 and be ready to wake by 5-6 am! In order to make the test worth taking, they need the patient to sleeep about 6 hrs at least.) Then his sleep improved for a while and life happened, money issues, etc. and we didn't go in for the test. Now it is worse than ever. This is the same teen with lifelong migraines, and that is a whole 'nother story. Still suffering, even though going to a chiropractor and taking feverfew. Prescriptions caused too many side effects. We are considering the 5HTP to see if it will improve his sleep and maybe we will find it decreases his migraines. Ideas?? Experience?? Summer will be over soon and we haven't had.one.at.all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I've looked into 5HTP several times, but the potential side effects have always stopped me from trying it. Most recently I read a paper about how it can inhibit the production of neurotransmitters other than serotonin . I don't think I would be comfortable with it for regular long term use . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiMi 4under3 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Have you tried re-setting his biological clock? I read this in Weisbluth's book, I think. (Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child?) When he hears the birds chirping, get out of bed for the day! That night he should be tired enough to fall asleep at a reasonable time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I have had lifelong sleep issues. When I was 15-18, I slept only every other night. I still have issues, but I sleep better if I: -keep to a routine. Same bedtime, same rising time. This was an wnormous benefit of homeschooling. Rising at 8:30-9:00 vs 7:00 makes ALL the difference. -NO screen time 60 minutes before bedtime. None. Not an iPhone, not a TV, not a computer. You can read the research iv you want to--but it makes a difference. eInk is excluded (can use a kindle paperwhite). It takes 40 days to establish any new habit. This is not excluded. I hope your teen is willing to make the effort. I think it is worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Progressive relaxation ? This helps sometimes. I have eczema and get itchy twitches going on so THAT doesn't work. I have also had some help from imagining a black-out blind slowly lowering over my eyes. And prayer. That helps. I can just start praying for people and I'll eventually go to sleep. And at least I have prayed for people. :0) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbridgeacademy Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Valerian helps Dd, nothing helps me except 2-3 benedryl but that's not an option for regular use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 I've looked into 5HTP several times, but the potential side effects have always stopped me from trying it. Most recently I read a paper about how it can inhibit the production of neurotransmitters other than serotonin . I don't think I would be comfortable with it for regular long term use . I have reservations concerning using the 5HTP as well, although the seminar I watched concerning it's use with fibromyalgia patients was rather convincing as a sleep remedy. Do you recall where the article was found? The one thing that makes me lean toward trying it is the fact that antidepressants are used to treat migraines, and 5HTP is supposedly (in laymans terms) naturally increasing seretonin levels. So...still thinking upon it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 Have you tried re-setting his biological clock? I read this in Weisbluth's book, I think. (Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child?) When he hears the birds chirping, get out of bed for the day! That night he should be tired enough to fall asleep at a reasonable time. We have tried this often. The headaches seem to complicate matters. Often he wakes up with one and can't get up. It just seems it is a vicious cycle. Then on numerous occassions he has a headache in the evening and sleeps, then isn't tired until 2 am or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeacherZee Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I took Valerian when I was in college and had insomnia. It worked well for me. My issues are much better now usually they only surface now when I am really stressed and When that happens I listen to an audiobook I've already read/listened to and try telling myself at least I'm resting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandragood1 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 This may be crazy, but have you tried revving him up during the day so that he's down at night? A friend with narcolepsy was treated this way with ADHD drugs. It helped. I don't suggest an rx drug, but maybe sudafed? The old kind. IME it is shorter acting than caffeine. If that helps you could ask a doctor for something prescription or try other natural stimulants. I know there are some herbal ones but can't remember any names right now. Another idea is an intense exercise program. My dd has begun rowing 2 hours per day M-F. Her sleep issues are greatly reduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngieW in Texas Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 My youngest suffered from severe insomnia starting just before she turned 12yo. She was getting less than 4 hours/night and even those 4 hours weren't all together in one chunk. This went on for more than one year while I was begging for a sleep study. She did counseling for anxiety because the consensus was that anxiety was the cause of her sleep problems. She was militant about her sleep hygiene and doing everything the way that it was supposed to be. Benadryl stopped working, Zyrtec stopped working, Melatonin stopped working. Nothing OTC was helping her to even fall asleep, much less finally stay asleep. Psychiatrist finally said we could do a trial of a sleep med. Everything changed immediately. That night she slept 9 hours. She is still taking the sleep med. She is still on 3/4 of the lowest dose tablet. She has been taking it for 4 years. She is still militant about her sleep time. She goes to bed by 10:30pm every night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I have had lifelong sleep issues. When I was 15-18, I slept only every other night. I still have issues, but I sleep better if I: -keep to a routine. Same bedtime, same rising time. This was an wnormous benefit of homeschooling. Rising at 8:30-9:00 vs 7:00 makes ALL the difference. -NO screen time 60 minutes before bedtime. None. Not an iPhone, not a TV, not a computer. You can read the research iv you want to--but it makes a difference. eInk is excluded (can use a kindle paperwhite). It takes 40 days to establish any new habit. This is not excluded. I hope your teen is willing to make the effort. I think it is worth it. This. Yes. Yes. That is too much melatonin, usually. If melatonin is not helping, the teaching is that melatonin is not needed by that person's body. I have had insomnia since 1975, so empathize with your situation. Prescription sleep meds are not a long-term safe solution. The quoted post is spot-on, as is the recommendation of daily exercise (but not late in the day for exercise). "White noise" can help. At night, cover every single thing that emits a light: night lights (turn them off), digital clocks, DVD players, telephones, etc. Invest in light-blocking window curtains. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I have reservations concerning using the 5HTP as well, although the seminar I watched concerning it's use with fibromyalgia patients was rather convincing as a sleep remedy. Do you recall where the article was found? The one thing that makes me lean toward trying it is the fact that antidepressants are used to treat migraines, and 5HTP is supposedly (in laymans terms) naturally increasing seretonin levels. So...still thinking upon it. Here you go: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3415362/ This makes it sound like 5HTP should definitely not be given alone, and I would worry about getting the right balance if also supplementing with other neurotransmitter precursors. Occasional use may not be a problem, but it seems that the potential to throw the entire neurotransmitter system out of balance requires caution and oversight from an experienced medical practitioner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 . He doesn't drink caffeine in the afternoon at all, and no sodas, or sweet drinks, but once a month or so. Has he tried giving up caffeine totally? That's what I would suggest. I'm very sensitive to caffeine and a little goes a long way in disturbing my sleep. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Girls' Mom Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 All three of mine have sleep issues (something they inherited from their father). When it gets particularly bad, we have a bit of a routine to get their bodies back into rhythm. Get up early. Get outside into the sun. Move a lot (walking/hiking/biking) Eat well, take vitamins (Vit D especially) Epsom salt bath in the evening. Magnesium supplement an hour or so before bed. No screens after 9PM. Melatonin with valerian right before bed (but only for a week or so at a time) The exercise and sunshine help immensely. These things don't always work completely, but they at least seem to get them in a better mindset. I'm sorry...not being able to sleep is tough. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 My two cents: I saw something recently about using smaller amounts of melatonin as being more effective. (My 12 y.o. takes 500 mcg, or sometimes half that, and it's surprisingly not that easy to find compared to the 10 mg bottles) Assuming less isn't going to be helpful here, other supplements our family uses besides melatonin and magnesium citrate (YMMV): - evening primrose oil - NutraSleep (a combination product by Source Naturals) On a more temporary basis, I would try Ashwaghanda but I'm not well-versed in it so I don't know about longer term. I've read that some people find it better to have the magnesium earlier in the day rather than at bedtime. I give it around dinner. FWIW, when I was looking into 5htp, there was some advice to combine it with a morning supplement (maybe tyrosine, I can't recall); essentially, it opened up a can of worms with regard to supplementing amino acids. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25621434 This was in the news extensively earlier this year. As the posited link between anticholinergic drugs and the development of Alzheimer's is grounded in cumulative use of these drugs, I would be hesitant to start anyone using them at all without absolute necessity. I am a sitting duck for Alzheimer's, and was greatly concerned to learn this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25621434 This was in the news extensively earlier this year. As the posited link between anticholinergic drugs and the development of Alzheimer's is grounded in cumulative use of these drugs, I would be hesitant to start anyone using them at all without absolute necessity. I am a sitting duck for Alzheimer's, and was greatly concerned to learn this. Yes, I heard these report about a year ago. My recollection was that it pertained to use by older adults, but yes, a cause for concern. Of course, a person not sleeping has it's own detrimental results, so at this point I am willing to try just about anything, temporarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thank you for all the ideas! I am still listening in. Valerian root-I have used it myself in the past, but forgot abot it! That may be less risky than the 5HTP. Evening primrose, Ashwaghanda, Nutrasleep- will have to research some Melatonin-yes, sometimes less is best. Some nights he only uses 3 mg. Sleep med-I would only use this for three or 4 days, if we get to the point where we feel the need. Magnesium--uses after dinner and again before bed. Caffeine-was off completely for a few months, no difference. Sudafed to rev him up during the day--worth a try! Thanks for all the ideas! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2samlibby Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Vitamin B12 can help with insomnia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daria Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 My son is in the process of testing for sleep issues, but his issues are opposite -- hypersomnolence vs. insomnia. I'm a little confused about the sleep study. Did you attempt it, and they couldn't get results, or have you not been in? Did you talk to a sleep medicine doctor? I know that what you describe is standard for sleep studies, but if you find a sleep center that has daytime staff for other tests, I don't see why you couldn't do a sleep study with different hours. Beyond that, I don't have a lot of solutions, since our issues are different. I hope you find something! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplejackmama Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Have you ever been able to find a source of the migraines? Poor kid seems like he's battling a lot. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Well so far I'm just letting him go to bed later and get up later. I admit I'm not thrilled, but at this point in time there is no real reason to not let him. He is sleeping more now than he has his whole life. He never was much of a sleeper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 One more thought I have. I recently saw something about screens being an issue for some people. Meaning if you are looking at any kind of screen (computer, tablet, phone, etc.) too close to bedtime that that can cause problems with falling asleep. Something about the lighting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I wish my son would agree to something. He won't. It is a nightmare. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Have you tried re-setting his biological clock? I read this in Weisbluth's book, I think. (Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child?) When he hears the birds chirping, get out of bed for the day! That night he should be tired enough to fall asleep at a reasonable time. I'm sorry, but this is laughable. This author has never experienced true sleep issues. Maybe this will work for a toddler or young child who has gotten off schedule a little, but someone with deep-seated sleep issues like the OP is discussing cannot be brought back on track this easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 My teen is taking Tylenol PM when he isn't on prescription pain killers for his leg injury. Between aching and some PTSD, he has a hard time getting into a good sleep without some assistance. It works well, and his doctor, for now, has okayed it for long term use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 My son is in the process of testing for sleep issues, but his issues are opposite -- hypersomnolence vs. insomnia. I'm a little confused about the sleep study. Did you attempt it, and they couldn't get results, or have you not been in? Did you talk to a sleep medicine doctor? I know that what you describe is standard for sleep studies, but if you find a sleep center that has daytime staff for other tests, I don't see why you couldn't do a sleep study with different hours. Beyond that, I don't have a lot of solutions, since our issues are different. I hope you find something! No, we never had the sleep study performed because I was told by the sleep center physician that he would have to go to sleep by 11:00 pm in order to perform the test. The wake up time was 5 or 6 am. Anyhow, she gave several recomendations as to how to get him to sleep by 11:00 so that we could do a sleep study. Well.......that is easier said than done with a teenager with sleep issues and just being a teenager and unwilling to give up "screens" at night. I mean, he can't fall asleep easily, THAT is why we needed a sleep study. (At the time there were more issues than just falling asleep, but nightwalking and not being able to wake in the mornings until late.) So, in order to do a sleep study, at least form the places we have spoken to, you have to go to sleep by about 11:00pm. Your situation sounds like a struggle too! Sure hope you find answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 Have you ever been able to find a source of the migraines? Poor kid seems like he's battling a lot. :( No, we still have no solid answers as to the cause of the migraines. Neurologist just simply want to prescribe prescriptions. There are many different classes of meds available, but so far they have all had major side effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplejackmama Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 No, we still have no solid answers as to the cause of the migraines. Neurologist just simply want to prescribe prescriptions. There are many different classes of meds available, but so far they have all had major side effects. I'm so sorry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daria Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 No, we never had the sleep study performed because I was told by the sleep center physician that he would have to go to sleep by 11:00 pm in order to perform the test. The wake up time was 5 or 6 am. Anyhow, she gave several recomendations as to how to get him to sleep by 11:00 so that we could do a sleep study. Well.......that is easier said than done with a teenager with sleep issues and just being a teenager and unwilling to give up "screens" at night. I mean, he can't fall asleep easily, THAT is why we needed a sleep study. (At the time there were more issues than just falling asleep, but nightwalking and not being able to wake in the mornings until late.) So, in order to do a sleep study, at least form the places we have spoken to, you have to go to sleep by about 11:00pm. Your situation sounds like a struggle too! Sure hope you find answers. Are you in an area that might have multiple sleep centers? Because we needed the nighttime and the daytime test, there were places that wouldn't see him, because it means having a staff come in during the day. Maybe if you shopped around you could find someone who could be flexible on the sleep study timing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 I wish my son would agree to something. He won't. It is a nightmare. Ha.....I know the feeling! They think they know it all at this age. He says, "come on, how could looking at a computer screen keep him awake." I think I may just have to return to the sleep Dr. soon, even if it is so he will tell my son once again all the things he needs to do and not do for a week prior to the study. Maybe he will listen to the Dr. this time. Plus, I don't know why they can't let him take the maletonin or even another sleep aide that may work, just to get him through the sleep study. It would get us throuh the sleep study and hopefully determine "what" is going on WHEN he does actually sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 My teen is taking Tylenol PM when he isn't on prescription pain killers for his leg injury. Between aching and some PTSD, he has a hard time getting into a good sleep without some assistance. It works well, and his doctor, for now, has okayed it for long term use. Well, with migraines and headaches that are chronic, using tylenol or any pain medecine regularly can cause rebound headaches, so we use them very sparingly. (saying ever so gently) I can see where your son might need them now, with an injury, but any Dr. that approves them for long term use is not setting your son up for success, in my humble opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 Are you in an area that might have multiple sleep centers? Because we needed the nighttime and the daytime test, there were places that wouldn't see him, because it means having a staff come in during the day. Maybe if you shopped around you could find someone who could be flexible on the sleep study timing? I will have to look into the times offered by diffent sleep centers. It would be worth a try. Most of the centers I spoke with do no testing during the day at all, and all patients are hooked up around 10:00pm, so you can go to sleep by 10:00. I will look into it again though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenrae Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 I'm sorry, but this is laughable. This author has never experienced true sleep issues. Maybe this will work for a toddler or young child who has gotten off schedule a little, but someone with deep-seated sleep issues like the OP is discussing cannot be brought back on track this easily. I have not looked into the book she recomended yet, but it sounds like similar suggestions we were given by the sleep center physician. Her recomendation to get him sleeping early enought to do the sleep study were: 1. get off the computer and all screens for 1 1/2 hrs before bed 2. go to bed 15 minutes earlier each night, till he is going to bed by 10:00 pm each night, including weekends 3. get up same time every day, even weekends 4.make him get up early, drag him from bed and get hime in the early mornign sun for 20 min. ALL good advise, but what teenager will listen to this? I mean, during the school year if he was working on school assignments from college classes and didn't get ON his computer till 9:00, then what? It just isn't practical for a teenager. I will readily admit that changes have to be implemented, but I can't force it on a young adult, he has to want it. Plus, taking into consideration his migraines frequently CAUSE the messed up sleep cycle, it feels like a no win situation. Hopefully we will see a change. He was up all night. I mean.all.night. Mowed the yard today and then played on the computer. Drank a Monster drink at 4:00 pm and was able to stay awake and is going to bed now. Praying that he gets up by 7-8am and feels great tomorrow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngieW in Texas Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I will say that my dd did all of the things that you mentioned above. She was in bed by 10pm every night and then laid there sobbing for 3-4 hours while wishing she could actually sleep. It was to the point where I was staying in the room with her until she fell asleep (generally between 1 and 2 am) and she was still waking up just 1-2 hours later, lying awake for another hour or two and then falling asleep for a few more hours. She got up at 7am every day, regardless of how much she had actually slept. She exercised hard at the gym at least 4 hours before bed. She didn't get on any screens in the last three hours before bed. We went outside and walked in the morning to make sure she got morning sun. We had already tried Benadryl, Zyrtec, and melatonin as sleep aids and they all stopped having any effect on her getting to sleep. It did NOTHING for her. It was so bad that she was having multiple episodes of microsleeps every day. http://www.sleepdex.org/microsleep.htm She was seeing a counselor for anxiety, but the main thing she was anxious about was not getting sleep. And the longer she was going without getting sleep, the worst her anxiety was getting. The doctor finally put her on a trial of trazodone. She started feeling wobbly within 15 minutes of taking it at bedtime and told me that she didn't need me that night and went to bed and SLEPT for 9 hours. She was groggy the next day, so she took 3/4 of a pill the next night (I chop halves and quarters) and that was perfect. She goes to bed by 10:30 and gets up around 7:30. Her doctor had said to start with 1 pill and if that made her groggy to go down to 1/2 or 3/4. If it wasn't enough to take 1.5 or 2, but not to take more than 2. She has been on the 3/4 tablet dosage for four years. She had her sleep study while on the trazodone. The sleep center said that they couldn't do the sleep study unless she was actually able to sleep. They didn't find anything. Some people just have major problems with sleep that will NOT go away on their own. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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