Chemistry or Physics?

[Junie]

My ds is only going to have enough time in his schedule for 3 sciences.  He is doing Apologia Physical Science this year and will do Biology next year.  I'm wondering if we should do Chemistry or Physics for his senior year.  Personally, I would rather teach Physics than Chemistry, but most sequences that I've seen prefer Chemistry over Physics.

 

He is not a STEM kid.

 

Please help me out by voting!

[Julie of KY]

I'd either decide for him (you want physics) or ask his opinion.

[SilverMoon]

I'd also defer to his preference in that situation.

[Junie]

His preference is neither.  He detests science and sees absolutely no need for it.

 

I took chemistry, but not physics.  When I was in high school, I was only required to take 3 sciences, so I took an extra foreign language instead of physics. 

[JDoe]

Neither?

[Pen]

I'd go with either is fine. But if he is not STEM, maybe he does not need either of these sciences.  Maybe he could do a year of something he would prefer like health science or environment studies or nutrition and culinary arts, that is perhaps relevant to life or part of life skills. 

[Space station]

What does he like?  

Is he outdoor-sy?  Maybe he would prefer Environmental Science.  

Does he like computers?  Maybe he'd prefer programming.  

Does he like Sci Fi?  How about Astronomy?  It can tickle the imagination.

Does he like history?  How about a History of Science class?

 

For a non-stem kid, I'd rather see him pick something that he can dig into and enjoy based on the strengths he will use after he graduates.  It doesn't have to be a traditional science sequence.

 

[Tsuga]

I would ask first what his goal is for college. Just because you don't want to go into STEM doesn't mean you don't need science. STEM kids still get four years of English. I would agree that he needs three years of science to graduate. If he wants to go to a state school or private school, he should probably aim higher.

 

In my rural high school in the 1990s, you had Biology, Chemistry, and Geology if you were not going on to college.

 

That was on top of one applied course like shop or computers, plus health. College prep (not STEM) was Bio, Chem, Physics, dual enrollment A&P. College prep STEM was Bio, AP Chem, AP Physics, and then DE A&P.

 

 

[Junie]

I would ask first what his goal is for college. Just because you don't want to go into STEM doesn't mean you don't need science. STEM kids still get four years of English. I would agree that he needs three years of science to graduate. If he wants to go to a state school or private school, he should probably aim higher.

 

In my rural high school in the 1990s, you had Biology, Chemistry, and Geology if you were not going on to college.

 

That was on top of one applied course like shop or computers, plus health. College prep (not STEM) was Bio, Chem, Physics, dual enrollment A&P. College prep STEM was Bio, AP Chem, AP Physics, and then DE A&P.

 

His goal is to play professional baseball.  I'm requiring him to prepare for college because I know how unlikely that is.  When I asked him what his plan b was -- what would he major in -- he said business.

 

His true love is history, but he hasn't found anything that he would like to do with a history degree.  He doesn't want to work with people and he doesn't want to work in an office.  And, he's not the outdoors type.  I'm not sure what's left.  And so, he is thinking about owning his own business, although he doesn't know what that would be.  At least a business major would help him get a job, even if it's not one that he particularly likes (since he doesn't yet know what he likes).

 

I am requiring 3 years of science because I think it will help him get into college and do well there.  I think it is important to learn how to learn something, even if you don't like it.  I'm sure that he will encounter classes in college that he will hate and I want him to know how to do well (or well enough) in something, even if he would prefer not to do it.

 

I'm thinking about possibly a sound engineering course.  I was originally thinking of it as a .5 credit elective; maybe we could do that instead of chemistry/physics?

 

Thank you all for sharing your ideas!

[Pen]

Professional baseball to me suggests physics even if as a .5 unit course along with something else for another .5   .    How does the ball move through the air, drop back to the ground, accelerate, react to the bat, impact a glove,  ...  so much physics there.  Why doesn't the ball pass through and around the bat like water or air would do? What shape is the trajectory of a thrown ball...   Ah, such beauty.

 

Sound engineering sounds very interesting too.  I'd be interested in how you would do a course in sound engineering, as I think my son would enjoy that.

 

 

[Junie]

 

 

Sound engineering sounds very interesting too.  I'd be interested in how you would do a course in sound engineering, as I think my son would enjoy that.

 

I've been looking at these textbooks:  http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Engineering-101-Beginners-Production/dp/0240819152/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431828012&sr=8-1&keywords=audio+engineering

 

and  http://www.amazon.com/Recording-Engineers-Handbook-Bobby-Owsinski/dp/1285442016/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1431828012&sr=8-5&keywords=audio+engineering

 

Ds likes to help dh in the audio/visual booth at church.  He seems to enjoy it, so I thought it might be a science he would be interested in.  I haven't really planned anything yet, though, since he's got to get through biology next year first.

[Junie]

Professional baseball to me suggests physics even if as a .5 unit course along with something else for another .5   .    How does the ball move through the air, drop back to the ground, accelerate, react to the bat, impact a glove,  ...  so much physics there.  Why doesn't the ball pass through and around the bat like water or air would do? What shape is the trajectory of a thrown ball...   Ah, such beauty.

 

 

 

I must admit, I don't usually think of physics when I watch a baseball game.  :)  I'm usually wondering what kind of trouble his five sisters might be getting into and hoping we have enough popcorn.  Oh, and lamenting the fact that I forgot the sunscreen again.

[Tsuga]

His goal is to play professional baseball.  I'm requiring him to prepare for college because I know how unlikely that is.  When I asked him what his plan b was -- what would he major in -- he said business.

 

His true love is history, but he hasn't found anything that he would like to do with a history degree.  He doesn't want to work with people and he doesn't want to work in an office.  And, he's not the outdoors type.  I'm not sure what's left.  And so, he is thinking about owning his own business, although he doesn't know what that would be.  At least a business major would help him get a job, even if it's not one that he particularly likes (since he doesn't yet know what he likes).

 

I am requiring 3 years of science because I think it will help him get into college and do well there.  I think it is important to learn how to learn something, even if you don't like it.  I'm sure that he will encounter classes in college that he will hate and I want him to know how to do well (or well enough) in something, even if he would prefer not to do it.

 

I'm thinking about possibly a sound engineering course.  I was originally thinking of it as a .5 credit elective; maybe we could do that instead of chemistry/physics?

 

Thank you all for sharing your ideas!

 

I think you are right.

 

I wish him the best in his goal to play a pro sport, but I agree that it is a career that requires a back-up plan. 

 

Re: sound tech: applied technical work, like sound engineering, is not the same as theoretical science. I am all for a kid choosing electives, but honestly, how is he going to deal with college general education requirements if he doesn't have high school general science classes? I majored in the humanities. I still had to take calculus or three math classes at a certain level (I think it was geometry, trig, and one other college-level quantitative course like stats, but I took calc), and three quarters (one year) of science.

 

Very few of us get to work in our hobby area. Most of us work in our second or third area of interest, and spend our free time doing sports, arts, etc. Your son must be what, 13-15 right now? It is time for a reality check, not about what he can and can't do, but of risks, likelihoods, and rewards of different careers and college and high school paths.

 

Without discouraging him from pro sports, he needs to understand the likelihood of that even for the best, and then look at what most people who planned to go into pro sports ended up doing. Many people would have loved not to have science, or arts, or math, or humanities (pick your least favorite) in high school and college. But society requires a certain level of well-rounded education so we sucked it up.

 

He is old enough to face reality. He should sit down with a college counselor or other adult, not you, to talk this out.

[Pen]

A person I knew as a homeschool child  who is now an adult went to college and majored in something along the lines of sports administration--I don't recall the exact name of the major, but that is the gist. It was not a top level (or probably even mid level) academic school, but he got to do something he enjoyed, and I have heard that he then worked as a coach and administrator in school and parks department sports programs. 

[Junie]

I think you are right.

 

I wish him the best in his goal to play a pro sport, but I agree that it is a career that requires a back-up plan. 

 

Re: sound tech: applied technical work, like sound engineering, is not the same as theoretical science. I am all for a kid choosing electives, but honestly, how is he going to deal with college general education requirements if he doesn't have high school general science classes? I majored in the humanities. I still had to take calculus or three math classes at a certain level (I think it was geometry, trig, and one other college-level quantitative course like stats, but I took calc), and three quarters (one year) of science.

 

Very few of us get to work in our hobby area. Most of us work in our second or third area of interest, and spend our free time doing sports, arts, etc. Your son must be what, 13-15 right now? It is time for a reality check, not about what he can and can't do, but of risks, likelihoods, and rewards of different careers and college and high school paths.

 

Without discouraging him from pro sports, he needs to understand the likelihood of that even for the best, and then look at what most people who planned to go into pro sports ended up doing. Many people would have loved not to have science, or arts, or math, or humanities (pick your least favorite) in high school and college. But society requires a certain level of well-rounded education so we sucked it up.

 

He is old enough to face reality. He should sit down with a college counselor or other adult, not you, to talk this out.

 

:iagree:

 

I agree that he should have another science; hence the post. :)  He has already told me that he doesn't want to take a sound engineering class; he likes to do it for fun.  However, I wanted him to dig deeper into it to see if maybe it would be something that he could love (or like) as a career.  

 

I also believe in a well-rounded education, especially for someone who doesn't know exactly what they want to do.

 

As far as baseball, I think he knows that it is unlikely to happen.  We have talked about it multiple times.  We've talked about sports medicine, sports broadcasting, journalism, statistician...  He just hasn't found anything to replace the dream, yet.  He's been checking out all sorts of career books from the library.  He's talked about joining the military (another reason for the 3rd year of science).

 

I hadn't thought about taking him to see someone at the college.  Maybe I can set something up this summer.   Thank you.

[mom31257]

Our state requires either Physical Science or Physics, Biology, and Chemistry. I'd have to go with Chemistry. 

[Tsuga]

 

I hadn't thought about taking him to see someone at the college.  Maybe I can set something up this summer.   Thank you.

 

I would also have him consider careers that would allow him to work hours that allowed him to coach and play a rec sport. There is nothing wrong with working in IT or real estate for less than the maximum you could make, for the sole purpose of enjoying your family, coaching sports and playing in the minors. Not everybody loves their job. My older daughter wants to go into music. That's great, but it doesn't pay the bills. We've talked about which careers allow you to make money, work flexible hours, and pursue your dreams.

 

And even if he does go pro: he needs to be good at investing that money he earns, you know? He has to make the money work for him. So maybe steering him in that direction--okay, suppose you go pro. How will you invest that paycheck, what skills will you need to make a 20-year career (max) profit last a lifetime?

 

That could be a more interesting discussion because it centers around his dream.

 

Plus, it's practical. When I hear of boys going from the ghetto to pro back to the ghetto (not that you are in the ghetto, but think some of the kids from poor areas) I could just weep.

[Colleen in NS]

 He has already told me that he doesn't want to take a sound engineering class; he likes to do it for fun.

 

If it still will boil down to a choice between chemistry and physics, I would choose physics.  It seems like he enjoys the running of the sound system at church (my 17yo son does, too!!), so physics can only enhance that (even if he doesn't realize it - he doesn't need to know that's your reason for choosing physics, lol).  Also, I agree with what someone else said about physics in baseball - sports is full of physics!  Well, so is everyday life.  But sports could connect it for him, KWIM?  Also, I had my son study physics before chemistry, since I'd read here over the years that it is more foundational and then chemistry and biology build in sequence on physics.  It worked well enough here - he just finished a year of chemistry after doing physics in Grade 10.  I would bet that, based on your son's love of baseball and sound engineering, he would enjoy physics over chemistry.

[Colleen in NS]

P.S.  My son found Richard Bolles's career book for teenagers quite helpful.

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1607745771/

[Kendall]

I would vote physics.  My now-with-a-full-time-audio-engineering job kid liked physics the best.  My other son who has an EE degree doesn't count :) My third son who really liked Biology also would vote for Physics over Chem because he liked learning about things that he can see happen.

[MtnTeaching]

I know it is still early for him, but does he have some colleges in mind that he might like to play for or apply to?  You might want to look at the admission requirements of a few of them online to get a feel for what they ask for.  

 

Several of ds' choices required that at least two of the sciences were lab sciences.  That might help with some of the decision making.

[J-rap]

If he detests science and needs either Chemistry or Physics, I'd choose Chemistry, and find a curriculum that that is not math-heavy.

 

If he is looking into colleges that require three high school lab sciences but does not specifically state which sciences, you could look into something like environmental science.  Something like that might feel more practical and he might end up taking a real interest in it.

[brookspr]

I can sympathize, our daughter is not a lover of science and was dreading chemistry and physics! This year she took Biology at the public high school and was trying to decide between chemistry and physics for next year, most likely at home. Both DH and I have chemistry degrees so that's the one subject I actually feel qualified to teach :)

 

We decided that since she loves music and will most likely pursue a music degree in college we would do physics next year and study sound, acoustics and instruments. I think it would be very easy to create a course where your son studies the physics of sports.

 

I am undecided about what to do her junior or senior year. We may try astronomy at the high school or anatomy and physiology at home, although something tells me we should just do chemistry. I worry that some colleges specify bio/chem/phys, and not just 3 years of a lab science. I may have to look into that more before we plan that far ahead.

 

[Mike in SA]

Voice of dissent here. :)

 

At a high school age, I had no idea what I liked or didn't like, but I thought I did. By allowing a child to limit their future prematurely, what do we really accomplish?

 

I expect my kids to gain exposure to many paths forward now. When they reach college, the choice falls back on them. So, my vote would be to require both. The intensity can be adjusted appropriately.

[Junie]

I looked into the college that ds is most likely to be interested in.  The online info said 3 sciences, no mention of labs (although we are doing labs, anyway, so it doesn't really matter).

 

He will almost definitely be going to a community college first.  They have open enrollment, 100 percent acceptance rate.  I *think* that after getting an associate's degree there, the high school credits would be moot and he could transfer in as a junior.  Please correct me if this is the wrong assumption.

 

And there is an agreement with these schools that all of the credits would transfer.  (I already looked into that.)

 

It looks like chemistry is winning the poll; I'm not sure which direction I'm going to go, but don't be surprised if you see a post in the future looking for advice on teaching chemistry!!

 

 

[Junie]

Voice of dissent here. :)

 

At a high school age, I had no idea what I liked or didn't like, but I thought I did. By allowing a child to limit their future prematurely, what do we really accomplish?

 

I expect my kids to gain exposure to many paths forward now. When they reach college, the choice falls back on them. So, my vote would be to require both. The intensity can be adjusted appropriately.

 

I don't mind the voice of dissent.  However, I'm not sure that both sciences would really help him.

 

He really doesn't know what he wants to do, but I will be truly surprised/shocked if he ends up in a science field.

 

This is a little difficult for us, because dh knew what he wanted to do before middle school;  I knew that I wanted to be a teacher when I was in second grade.  We both knew our majors going in and never changed.  We both graduated with the degrees we had intended to get when we were in elementary school.  So, having a high schooler who really doesn't know what he wants to do is a bit disconcerting.

 

 

ETA:  How would you adjust the intensity to cover both?  I'm not sure how that would work.

[OneStepAtATime]

Maybe if he had the chance to shadow at some local businesses that spark his interest?  Or classes at a local college?  That might help him figure out what he wants to do?

 

FWIW, my 1st college boyfriend took a year off between High School and College because he really had no idea where he wanted to be/do.  It was awesome for him.  He worked a couple of different jobs, started an apprenticeship and at the end of that year had a much stronger grasp of what he wanted to go to college for.  He said that really upped his motivation to learn.  He finally saw purpose to his classes.  He also graduated with a high GPA and is still in the career he finally chose.

[bettyandbob]

I voted physics. However, look at the requirements AND ask about the expectations of admissions at schools your ds might target. I know you said he has no idea what he wants. My dc don't either, but I want them to be in a position to go most directions they could decide to go.

 

Over the last few years we've visited several schools in our state. Even if a school says the applicants must have 2 credits of science to be considered, most admissions officers said "we are expecting to see Biology, Chemistry, and Physics on a high school transcript."

[Mike in SA]

I don't mind the voice of dissent. However, I'm not sure that both sciences would really help him.

 

He really doesn't know what he wants to do, but I will be truly surprised/shocked if he ends up in a science field.

 

This is a little difficult for us, because dh knew what he wanted to do before middle school; I knew that I wanted to be a teacher when I was in second grade. We both knew our majors going in and never changed. We both graduated with the degrees we had intended to get when we were in elementary school. So, having a high schooler who really doesn't know what he wants to do is a bit disconcerting.

 

 

ETA: How would you adjust the intensity to cover both? I'm not sure how that would work.

Some high schools use nothing more than "conceptual" curriculum for the basic level of each science.

 

I would say that conceptual understanding does apply to many careers, in surprising ways. Having no conceptual understanding does put one at a disadvantage. Accountants, for instance, can function without any concept of how a company's products are created, but they are unlikely to move up the corporate ladder.

[Junie]

Maybe if he had the chance to shadow at some local businesses that spark his interest?  Or classes at a local college?  That might help him figure out what he wants to do?

 

FWIW, my 1st college boyfriend took a year off between High School and College because he really had no idea where he wanted to be/do.  It was awesome for him.  He worked a couple of different jobs, started an apprenticeship and at the end of that year had a much stronger grasp of what he wanted to go to college for.  He said that really upped his motivation to learn.  He finally saw purpose to his classes.  He also graduated with a high GPA and is still in the career he finally chose.

 

When I was in college, my summer jobs were through a temp agency.  I think that this is an excellent way to learn about different jobs and what you might want to do as a career.  Unfortunately, he is too young to get a job.

 

 

Some high schools use nothing more than "conceptual" curriculum for the basic level of each science.

 

I would say that conceptual understanding does apply to many careers, in surprising ways. Having no conceptual understanding does put one at a disadvantage. Accountants, for instance, can function without any concept of how a company's products are created, but they are unlikely to move up the corporate ladder.

 

I hadn't thought about this, but it makes sense.  Now I understand why you said "both".

[Guest msarts]

My option is physics.Physics is basically equation understanding and equation memorization. Mostly it's about how well you know your equations and if you know the right one(s) to use in each problems.
Chemistry has more memorization in general. It depends on what you are learning, but half of chemistry is about understanding concept and explaining ,while the other half is basic algebra that can get fairly complicated if you do not understand the equations and the problems thoroughly enough.
And physics has harder math as you move on further. But technically it's hard to tell which one you will like better. In my opinion if you like math, you would like physics.

[Mike in SA]

My option is physics.Physics is basically equation understanding and equation memorization. Mostly it's about how well you know your equations and if you know the right one(s) to use in each problems.

Chemistry has more memorization in general. It depends on what you are learning, but half of chemistry is about understanding concept and explaining ,while the other half is basic algebra that can get fairly complicated if you do not understand the equations and the problems thoroughly enough.

And physics has harder math as you move on further. But technically it's hard to tell which one you will like better. In my opinion if you like math, you would like physics.

Funny - I originally chose to major in physics precisely because there was NO memorization involved. In general, I would say that memorizing formulas does any subject a disservice, because it takes focus away from actually understanding the subject. I like Hewitt because it keeps the attention where it belongs.

[Junie]

What I have decided for now:

 

I ordered Apologia's elementary Chemistry and Physics book.  How convenient that they put it in one volume for me. :)  I am planning to use this for my younger dc.  Dd7 has already shown a lot of interest in science.

 

But, first, I plan for ds14 to go through the book.  I'm not sure how much work out of it I'll require, but I want him to at least look through it and let him choose which topic is most interesting for him.

 

With the topic he doesn't choose, I can use the elementary book and supplement with materials from the library.  He can do the experiments, do a science-fair type project and/or a research paper and maybe earn a half credit of Introduction to Chemistry or Physics.

 

Thank you everyone for your input.  I really appreciate you helping me to sort this out!!!

[regentrude]

Physics is basically equation understanding and equation memorization. Mostly it's about how well you know your equations and if you know the right one(s) to use in each problems.

 

Heck no!

Sadly, this seems to be how physics is taught in many schools, and many of my college students come in with the idea that physics is simply a grab bag of equations.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Students who attempt to approach physics this way will not be successful at learning physics - they can only succeed at passing a test that is designed to test whether they can plug and chug.