*Inna* Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Our church is currently "pastorless". We have 3-4 guest speakers every Sunday, they rotate and it works great IMO. I think there is a general understanding that anyone in the congregation can apply before the board to speak if they feel the Lord's leading. Now, one of the guest speakers applied for the pastor's position. He's a great guy and a great preacher. However, his wife, while being very entertaining, generous and funny, also has shown controlling, manipulative tendencies and is a known gossip. As a couple they are very friendly, hospitable and participate pretty much in every church event. So, based on this, would you vote "Yes" for this man, or keep looking? I'd love to hear your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiden Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I would vote to keep looking. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Coast Sue Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Definitely- Keep looking. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I would have a big problem with this couple. When the pastor is married, you are not calling just the pastor; you are calling his family. Now, this does not mean that one should expect the pastor's wife to lead the Ladies Bible Study, or play the organ, or run the nursery. But she will be in a position to hear some things and join in counseling situations that need to be kept confidential. If she cannot be trusted in this regard, that's a huge red flag to me. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 No. Unfortunately kids or a wife that are having known issues would be disqualifying for us, based in the verses of 1 Tim 1:3-7 and Titus 1:5-9. If the man cannot run his household well, and his wife has a vicious tongue, we would tell him no and explain why. Down the road if there was repentance from her and really positive changes or solid effort being put forth to stay away from that particular sin, we'd probably consider him again :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Keep looking. The man may be a perfect choice, but it sounds like his wife might stir up a lot of trouble and discord, and if she is already a nuisance when her dh isn't in a position of authority, I'll bet she would get a lot worse if he became pastor and she started to feel powerful. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Ivy Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Keep looking. My husband's childhood friend is a traveling minister. He just married one of the most unfriendly women I have ever met. I have tried and tried to be friendly and courteous to her, but now I just hate being around her and won't go wherever he is preaching. My husband is welcome, but I don't go just because it's horrible to have to get the cold shoulder from her. So, I can't imagine having to deal with that attitude all the time! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer132 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I would keep looking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Nope. You can do better than this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 .. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 I would have a big problem with this couple. When the pastor is married, you are not calling just the pastor; you are calling his family. Now, this does not mean that one should expect the pastor's wife to lead the Ladies Bible Study, or play the organ, or run the nursery. But she will be in a position to hear some things and join in counseling situations that need to be kept confidential. If she cannot be trusted in this regard, that's a huge red flag to me.It's intereting that you say that. Laws on privileged communications with clergymen vary by state, but I suggest you have someone look very closely into the laws where you live. The presence of the clergyman's wife (or other third pary) has been held to destroy the legal priviledge, and forced clergymen to testify as to what his parishioner disclosed. A church's leadership and lay prayer ministry need to understand how risky it is to allow a trusted lay person to be there to 'support' someone who is seeking confession/counseling from a pastor or to allow a clergy spouse or other 'helper' to be present. I realize it's not a typical thing, but it does happen, and most people don't think about that when they go discuss thngs with a clergyman 'in confidence.' I can tell you all the reasons it can be a good thing to have both people there (though not if either is a gossip), but it never feels good to be forced by a court to testify about crimes immoral behaviors. alcohol abuse, anger issues etc confided 'in confidence.' 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatherwith4 Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Keep looking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 She is *already* known for this? Keep looking. If you need some logic to back it up, practically speaking (though perhaps not in title), spouses of pastors often function as deacons. It doesn't sound like she would meet the qualifications for a deacon as outlined in 1 Timothy 3:8,Titus 1:7. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 THE HIVE HAS SPOKEN! :D It's cool when we all agree. :) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Wellllll....hold on now. (sorry, Cat) How do you know she is a gossip? Is it because you heard it thru the grapevine? And I like those bible verses well enough, but sometimes good priests/pastors have family members that don't do the right thing. It doesn't mean he/she doesn't have "control of the household." So I think this is not cut and dried. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Wellllll....hold on now. (sorry, Cat) How do you know she is a gossip? Is it because you heard it thru the grapevine? And I like those bible verses well enough, but sometimes good priests/pastors have family members that don't do the right thing. It doesn't mean he/she doesn't have "control of the household." So I think this is not cut and dried. Troublemaker. ;) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Absolutely not, assuming you've witnessed it first hand and it's clearly gossip. The things pastors deal with in confidence should remain in confidence unless there's a legitimate reason to make them public. Those are very very rare and the Bible is clear about how to do it. My MIL is the church gossip. When we went to the same church years ago my FIL was the church administrator who was privy to things that should've remained in confidence among the leadership. He told my MIL about EVERYTHING and she couldn't keep ANYTHING to herself. I was morally obligated to privately and personally inform the pastor that my FIL was talking about things said in confidence to the church leadership and telling MIL about them. She then blabbed it to people at get togethers where I personally overheard her gossiping about private matters, including a counseling session involving a non-criminal, but personally sensitive subject matter. FIL was fired from being the church administrator. They moved on to another church. I didn't have any choice. I have no idea if they knew it was me or not. There were other matters of ongoing conflict with FIL and leadership and FIL and other members. I think her gossiping was the straw that broke the camel's back. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Nyssa Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 The issue here doeesn't even need to concern the wife being present during confidential discussions with the pastor. If she is the pastor's wife, women will come to her on their own, thinking that she is a person they can safely confide in, especially when it is something they are uncomfortable sharing with a male pastor. If she isn't that safe person, that's a big problem. --Unless you can make her wear a sign that says Don't trust me! and I don't think you can do that. :) However, can someone call her on it? How would she react to that? Is she someone who can learn from mistakes and improve herself? So I wouldn't dismiss the idea immediately-- but I would definitely want more information. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor_dad Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Based on family experience, I would keep looking. Back in the mid-90s, DWs childhood church was deciding whether to be open and affirming and allow gay marraige, etc.. It was controversial. The congregation was going to vote. At one of the meetings, one of the ministers' husbands stated that people voting against this had no place in that church. This was offensive since as Congregationalists the church is the gathered community not the ministers or the hierarchy. The vote went in favor of being open and affirming but the process made acceptance and reconciliation very difficult and a fair number of long time families left. People choosing to leave is sad but happens; People feeling forced out by controlling personalities should never happen. That is the sort of damage an overly controlling family can cause. Your theology is probably different from ours ;) but the church leadership issue is the same. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Inna* Posted May 3, 2015 Author Share Posted May 3, 2015 THE HIVE HAS SPOKEN! :D It's cool when we all agree. :) Hallelujah!!! :Angel_anim: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 THE HIVE HAS SPOKEN! :D It's cool when we all agree. :) chiming in to agree. I think it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Inna* Posted May 3, 2015 Author Share Posted May 3, 2015 I have a first hand knowledge about the gossiping thing, because she is not subtle about it at all and a few times over the years things blew up out of control. A family actually had to leave the church because the wife confided in this person about something deeply embarrassing and painful to her and it's soon became a common knowledge. Honestly, when I heard about this application, I felt like screaming. I strongly feel that this lady will abuse a position of a pastor's wife and stir a lot of trouble. I hope the board and the congregation will have enough sense. But, thank you, Hive for your input. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Absolutely not, assuming you've witnessed it first hand and it's clearly gossip. The things pastors deal with in confidence should remain in confidence unless there's a legitimate reason to make them public. Those are very very rare and the Bible is clear about how to do it. My MIL is the church gossip. When we went to the same church years ago my FIL was the church administrator who was privy to things that should've remained in confidence among the leadership. He told my MIL about EVERYTHING and she couldn't keep ANYTHING to herself. I was morally obligated to privately and personally inform the pastor that my FIL was talking about things said in confidence to the church leadership and telling MIL about them. She then blabbed it to people at get togethers where I personally overheard her gossiping about private matters, including a counseling session involving a non-criminal, but personally sensitive subject matter. FIL was fired from being the church administrator. They moved on to another church. I didn't have any choice. I have no idea if they knew it was me or not. There were other matters of ongoing conflict with FIL and leadership and FIL and other members. I think her gossiping was the straw that broke the camel's back. Wow. What an incredibly difficult situation! How did your dh feel about you reporting his father? Even if he believed you were right to do it, it must have been very awkward for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Wow. What an incredibly difficult situation! How did your dh feel about you reporting his father? Even if he believed you were right to do it, it must have been very awkward for him. Not at all. He knew his parents were both doing the wrong thing and the only way to stop it was to let the leadership know what was happening. It probably won't surprise you to know my in-laws are difficult on many levels. My husband is a smart guy and can see what needed to be done in that situation. He wasn't going to church anymore, but that's particularly relevant. When private matters are being discussed publicly and you know who's doing it, you do what you have to to stop it regardless of your feelings. Can you IMAGINE being the poor person whose private conversations were being gossiped about? There's just no excuse not to address it immediately. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 It's intereting that you say that. Laws on privileged communications with clergymen vary by state, but I suggest you have someone look very closely into the laws where you live. The presence of the clergyman's wife (or other third pary) has been held to destroy the legal priviledge, and forced clergymen to testify as to what his parishioner disclosed. A church's leadership and lay prayer ministry need to understand how risky it is to allow a trusted lay person to be there to 'support' someone who is seeking confession/counseling from a pastor or to allow a clergy spouse or other 'helper' to be present. I realize it's not a typical thing, but it does happen, and most people don't think about that when they go discuss thngs with a clergyman 'in confidence.' I can tell you all the reasons it can be a good thing to have both people there (though not if either is a gossip), but it never feels good to be forced by a court to testify about crimes immoral behaviors. alcohol abuse, anger issues etc confided 'in confidence.' Thanks for the information. I wasn't even thinking in legal terms -- I was just thinking about the wife disclosing something that wasn't meant to be shared publicly. Interestingly, I was very surprised to learn from a pastor friend that he received ZERO instruction in seminary about legal issues such as the mandatory reporting laws in child abuse cases. I'll have to ask him about the confidentiality laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Wellllll....hold on now. (sorry, Cat) How do you know she is a gossip? Is it because you heard it thru the grapevine? And I like those bible verses well enough, but sometimes good priests/pastors have family members that don't do the right thing. It doesn't mean he/she doesn't have "control of the household." So I think this is not cut and dried. I agree with this. PW's and DW's are prime targets for the ugliest treatment. I'm immediately skeptical when I hear something like this. That said, reading the last post from the OP....first hand witnessing and the severity of....I would not vote for this person. Also - side note - a PW should not attend counseling sessions. For the sake of legal transparency, she might need to be in the building, outside the room (with glass window), so that there is no risk of accusations or actual maltreatment. She should not, however, be privy to the conversations. That said, she is often privy to church business before it's public, and people do often confide in her on a friendship level...and she should take that trust very seriously, though it should never be on a professional level unless she is also hired clergy (which is sometimes the case). A gossip will kill a church family, no matter what position she or HE holds...men do it too... You are going to have to combat this with a non-listening approach. "Excuse me. I don't need to be privy to that. Oh....look, that bean dip looks delicious..." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Keep looking. I've been in churches all my life, and unless the issue is confronted and there is repentance, it does not get any better. Waiting to see if repentance and change occur may not be in the best interest of the church. This sounds really crazy, because you would think it would be the norm, but discretion is one of the selling points I used in marketing myself for the position I'm in now. I just do not talk about other people, and if there is a real need, I take my concerns directly to the person involved. (It takes a lot of courage, sometimes.) A young adult in my family was recently on the receiving end of bad behavior in this vein. Man, what a painful life lesson, but I know it will be formative for good in my young adult's life and career. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Nope nope nope. Wouldn't vote for him. Pastor's wife is a big deal and while I wouldn't expect her to be perfect and could handle it if her kids misbehaved and her house was a mess and she forgot to bring something to the pot luck, manipulative and gossipy is a deal breaker. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Our church is currently "pastorless". We have 3-4 guest speakers every Sunday, they rotate and it works great IMO. I think there is a general understanding that anyone in the congregation can apply before the board to speak if they feel the Lord's leading. Now, one of the guest speakers applied for the pastor's position. He's a great guy and a great preacher. However, his wife, while being very entertaining, generous and funny, also has shown controlling, manipulative tendencies and is a known gossip. As a couple they are very friendly, hospitable and participate pretty much in every church event. So, based on this, would you vote "Yes" for this man, or keep looking? I'd love to hear your opinion. I don't know. We don't vote on pastors. But I wouldn't want a manipulative person or gossip in that role. That's for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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