Dual enrollment - Update #31

[BlsdMama]

UPDATE POST #31

 

 

Tell me the cons please?

 

DS is a motivated student.  He has incredible amount of energy and likes taking on new things and thrives on doing a LOT.  

 

We've just found out he can open enroll in a large school district here and take community college classes offered at the high school for homeschool students and motivated students for dual credits. 

 

He would take Physics I, Int. Algebra & Trig., and Principles of Engineering to begin.   Then walk over to the homeschool office for Spanish III if the schedule works out well.

 

It will be challenging because of the amount of driving for me, but I could see this being great for him.

 

What are the downsides?

Ana was entirely homeschool except Russian.  We had a great family dynamic and relationship and she's a homebody.  I just want his junior and senior year to be as great as hers, relationship wise.

 

[Corraleno]

Just a heads-up that some colleges will not grant transfer credit for classes that were taught at the high school, even if the CC itself grants credit. Some stipulate that in order to get credit, the DE courses need to be "regular" college classes open to regularly enrolled college students, not just HS students.

[school17777]

For us, it was the cost. Including gas, we would have spent $10k for the twins to each 2 classes a semester (at our local public state school). We weren't prepared to spend that much during high school. Instead, we had them load up on AP classes.

[quark]

Tell me the cons please?

 

DS is a motivated student.  He has incredible amount of energy and likes taking on new things and thrives on doing a LOT.  

 

We've just found out he can open enroll in a large school district here and take community college classes offered at the high school for homeschool students and motivated students for dual credits. 

 

He would take Physics I, Int. Algebra & Trig., and Principles of Engineering to begin.   Then walk over to the homeschool office for Spanish III if the schedule works out well.

 

It will be challenging because of the amount of driving for me, but I could see this being great for him.

 

What are the downsides?

Ana was entirely homeschool except Russian.  We had a great family dynamic and relationship and she's a homebody.  I just want his junior and senior year to be as great as hers, relationship wise.

 

Just some observations. It might be different with your community college:

 

The equivalents of the three subjects you mention are 4 (if Physics I includes lab), 5 and 3 units respectively at our local CC. Things may be smooth-going at first but might really pick up the pace when it's time for midterms and projects. If Physics I includes a lab and he has to hand in lab reports, beware time management issues with weekly reports. If Principles of Engineering also includes some kind of weekly lab or project, again beware tight deadlines. But your DS might not find this to be very tight like mine does. One of the ways mine plans to mitigate this in coming semesters is to alternate the STEM subjects instead of taking two together (he is taking 2 STEM in addition to math).

 

Possibly some bad language might be heard depending where he is standing, waiting, etc. Just be prepared. I've noticed boys toning down their language when they are standing near a group of girls but going all out with the f words (and other words) when they are mostly among guys.

[katilac]

Cons would include leaving the house and driving, lol, as you are already aware.

 

For us, having it at the high school, and with other high school students, would also have been a con. You can have trouble with credits, and, when we first looked into DE, we really didn't see how this setup was that different from just going to high school, which didn't interest dd or me. I think that being in a high school setting, surrounded by 30 high school students, is a fundamentally different experience than taking college courses on a college campus, surrounded by college students. 

 

She wasn't interested in the community college, either - ours is not great for academics, they cover less material than the university, and, while she wouldn't be surrounded by high school students, there would be quite a few of them. If you could get your hands on a syllabus and do some comparisons, that would be helpful. I know that some of the CC math courses here don't cover nearly as much material as the universities do (state schools do accept the credits, but that doesn't help if you need more math). 

 

We went for DE at the local university instead. It's not selective (we couldn't afford the only local uni that is selective and does DE) but we still think better than the options of high school DE or community college or staying completely at home. Is that an option for you? It's worth looking into. 

 

The biggest con is the 30-45 minute drive each way. 3 classes, so over four hours, three days a week, plus any extra time for study groups, required visits to the writing center, and so on. We're homebodies, so it was an adjustment, but we're in the 2nd semester now and finding our groove. 

 

Not many other cons, really. We do pay but DE gets a price break and it's very reasonable. We know our state schools will take all of her credits, and the private and OOS schools she is looking at will take at least some of them. She's easing in to college expectations and learning how to balance her schedule with multiple pulls on her time, and no control over the deadlines. 

 

Whatever you decide, I don't know that I would jump in with 3 or 4 classes. dd started with 2, and that was plenty. Even though they weren't that hard, it was a lot of adjustments at once. She is taking 3 this second semester, which is the limit, and will probably do so next year as well, but I'm glad she started with 2. 

 

I would definitely not start with math, physics, and engineering unless you can look at both the syllabus and text ahead of time, and feel that he is over prepared for the classes. I'm assuming this is your current 10th-grader? Going from Apologia Chem to college physics is enough to rock anybody's world; I wouldn't even consider it unless he's already had high school physics and found it an amusing pastime. 

[8filltheheart]

Echoing Corraleno's post.

 

Fwiw, i personally wouldn't do what you are describing. We reserve DE for college level classes that can't be completed at home. If he is seriously interested in engineering, he would not get credit for any of them at the university level, even if they weren't being taught at a high school. Engineering credits start with calculus and cal-based physics. Ds's uni's Intro to engineering class had cal as a co-req.

 

Have you considered what he would take the next 3 semesters? What are their complete offerings? Does he want to go to high school?

 

I would factor in time and gas costs and compare those costs to enrolling in challenging classes online.

[bettyandbob]

I do not count on dual enrollment as a way to rack up college credits while in high school. I do think of it as a way to provide appropriate challenge to a student who needs it. If the student goes to college and the college he/she attends accepts the DE credits, I consider that a bonus.So, my response is with that perspective. 

 

I think your plan sounds like a good one. Those are classes where he'd mostly interact with motivated students, thus limited some undesirable behavior a bit. 

 

I don't see the driving as a con so much as you're trading driving for your time involvement in facilitating classes at home, which you won't be doing as much if he takes 4 classes. 

 

 

 

 

 

[elegantlion]

I would check to see if the Principles of Engineering is part of the Project Lead the Way program. It is a middle - high school program for engineering. I would want to know if they have the higher levels available - scroll down to the specialized programs. I would want to know what kind of hands on experiences or labs they offer. 

 

If it is the same program, this is the text they use. 

 

I know very little about the program, but did consider using a few of their texts at home. 

[regentrude]

What major is he interested in? If it is engineering or hard science, none of these courses would count for college credit, even if they were taught directly at the college and not through the high school. This does not mean he should not take them, but you need to be aware of this.

 

If these are really college level courses, I would not advise to start with three STEM classes at once, but would recommend the student start with one class.

 

We did DE at a university for classes I cannot teach at home (foreign language) and classes DD had a special interest in (Physics, English). None of her credits transferred to her terminal school, but we knew this going in.

[8filltheheart]

I do not count on dual enrollment as a way to rack up college credits while in high school. I do think of it as a way to provide appropriate challenge to a student who needs it. If the student goes to college and the college he/she attends accepts the DE credits, I consider that a bonus.So, my response is with that perspective. 

 

I think your plan sounds like a good one. Those are classes where he'd mostly interact with motivated students, thus limited some undesirable behavior a bit. 

 

I don't see the driving as a con so much as you're trading driving for your time involvement in facilitating classes at home, which you won't be doing as much if he takes 4 classes. 

 

I should clarify that my point is that those are really more high school level courses, not college level.  The physics is obviously alg based.  The math is below calculus level.  The engineering class is a non-cal based intro to engineering class.    Just b/c classes are offered as a DE option does not make them college level.  Engineering majors' course work starts at the cal level.  Everything below that would be considered remedial for an engineering student b/c it would have been expected to have been completed in high school.

[BlsdMama]

This is so great to make me THINK all this out!  Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

 

 

 

Just a heads-up that some colleges will not grant transfer credit for classes that were taught at the high school, even if the CC itself grants credit. Some stipulate that in order to get credit, the DE courses need to be "regular" college classes open to regularly enrolled college students, not just HS students.

HA!  YES!  When Ana transferred her CC credits, they only counted as .7 credits.   :(

I already asked this.

He'll be attending his first year at our state U and living at home.  They have a transfer agreement!  :)  Learned this one the hard way!

 

For us, it was the cost. Including gas, we would have spent $10k for the twins to each 2 classes a semester (at our local public state school). We weren't prepared to spend that much during high school. Instead, we had them load up on AP classes.

Whoa!  How?

I know some states charge per class for dual enroll classes.  Here they are free except the $30 charge for enrolling.

 

He'll take AP Art History but our state U limits credits from CLEP, limits from AP, and limits from dual enroll so our plan is to spread these credits out so as to not end up with unnecessary credits / cost.

 

Just some observations. It might be different with your community college:

 

The equivalents of the three subjects you mention are 4 (if Physics I includes lab), 5 and 3 units respectively at our local CC. Things may be smooth-going at first but might really pick up the pace when it's time for midterms and projects. If Physics I includes a lab and he has to hand in lab reports, beware time management issues with weekly reports. If Principles of Engineering also includes some kind of weekly lab or project, again beware tight deadlines. But your DS might not find this to be very tight like mine does. One of the ways mine plans to mitigate this in coming semesters is to alternate the STEM subjects instead of taking two together (he is taking 2 STEM in addition to math).

 

Possibly some bad language might be heard depending where he is standing, waiting, etc. Just be prepared. I've noticed boys toning down their language when they are standing near a group of girls but going all out with the f words (and other words) when they are mostly among guys.

 

Yes, I'm wondering how he'll balance.  He wants to take four full classes but we've said no for the first semester.  I think he's going to be VERY surprised at the amount of effort this takes to be honest, but he's the kind of kid who'd rather die 1,000 deaths than not complete something.  So he'll do it and do it well or die trying. :p ;)  And, for whatever reason that I simply cannot fathom,  the kid loves math.  LOVES it.  He's been doing Foerester so I think the Algebra should be totally handleable and he'll have had Algebra II before this class starts.  It's just covering our bases and I don't want him to start in a math class that's ahead of him.

 

These are REALLY good points to think on.  Thank you.

 

From a social aspect we would be very uncomfortable with him taking them AT the college.  This is going to be at the high school.  It's a big school so the teachers from CC come over a couple days a week to teach the dual enrolled students.  So, while I'm certain it won't be the same as home, it will be all juniors and seniors and more academically motivated students.   

[BlsdMama]

I would check to see if the Principles of Engineering is part of the Project Lead the Way program. It is a middle - high school program for engineering. I would want to know if they have the higher levels available - scroll down to the specialized programs. I would want to know what kind of hands on experiences or labs they offer. 

 

If it is the same program, this is the text they use. 

 

I know very little about the program, but did consider using a few of their texts at home. 

 

It is part of it and they do have the higher levels!  :)

[BlsdMama]

I should clarify that my point is that those are really more high school level courses, not college level.  The physics is obviously alg based.  The math is below calculus level.  The engineering class is a non-cal based intro to engineering class.    Just b/c classes are offered as a DE option does not make them college level.  Engineering majors' course work starts at the cal level.  Everything below that would be considered remedial for an engineering student b/c it would have been expected to have been completed in high school.

 

We think of the Engineering class as an elective.  That's how it will transfer.  We were aware of this.  But we also know that kids tend to change majors as they take classes and "fine tune" what they do or don't want to do.  We're okay with it transferring as an elective.  

[BlsdMama]

https://www.pltw.org/

 

I have to run out, but I'll be back later today and respond to the rest.  I'm really appreciating the replies right now.

[MarkT]

I would check to see if the Principles of Engineering is part of the Project Lead the Way program. It is a middle - high school program for engineering. I would want to know if they have the higher levels available - scroll down to the specialized programs. I would want to know what kind of hands on experiences or labs they offer. 

 

If it is the same program, this is the text they use. 

 

I know very little about the program, but did consider using a few of their texts at home. 

Expensive text over $100 -  IMHO a .org should try to be as free as possible - get donor companies to sponsor things like the text books and offer them for essentially print costs or use a Bookboon type outfit - this is college text rip-off pricing

[FaithManor]

We have used limited DE. Part of the reason is the distance to the good community college. The local one is so bad I would not give them a penny. So, the boys have two hours of driving to take a class which in the middle of winter in Michigan can be heady so we tended to only use fall classes, and when we could get online classes that required limited presence on campus for testing and seminars, we used that.

 

We never used anything taught at the local high school because a dear friend teaches math at the school and says the quality is just not there. Additionally, if the boys were wanting to transfer the courses - which actually is not an issue at the present time - the DE taught on the high school campus does not count at the colleges they have on their short lists.

 

The upside of the online courses that the boys have done is that they've been good quality, low priced in the grand scheme of things ($115.00 per credit hour), and freed me from teaching a subject for a semester which with three boys in high school at once is a gift!

[school17777]

"Whoa! How?

I know some states charge per class for dual enroll classes. Here they are free except the $30 charge for enrolling."

 

 

Dual enrollment fees are based on your school district in my area. So, our school district sets it at 50%. A 3 credit class is about $2k, so we would have to pay $1k per class. 2 classes per twin, so 8 classes - $8k plus books plus gas=$10k, not worth it for high school!

 

 

eta: If it was only $30 per class, the kids would have started dual enrollment as jrs and racked up the credits! That is cheaper than AP exams!

[bettyandbob]

dual enrollment here cost the same as it would if the student was already a high school graduate. There have been proposals to make it free, but nothing has  come of that yet. 

[8filltheheart]

We think of the Engineering class as an elective. That's how it will transfer. We were aware of this. But we also know that kids tend to change majors as they take classes and "fine tune" what they do or don't want to do. We're okay with it transferring as an elective.

For an engineering major, the others will most likely be electives with no gain. Engineering has very little wiggle room. Their electives are categorized and fit specific criteria. I know the 2 universities where my kids have majored in engineering, those math and physics classes would not count toward any graduation requirement.

 

If you both want him to attend school for the classes and experience, then that should be your motivation and the question you consider. That is a perfectly realistic desire and should not be discounted. Therefore, I would not personally weigh this decision as a DE question, but a student question. The classes are high school level being taught at a high school with limited transfer value. Does he want to be a high school student? I would just want to make sure that he is clear on the fact that there is no long term gain by going this route other than becoming a student in a classroom and gaining that experience.

 

Are the classes semester length or yr length? That would be another question to consider. What are the other courses he would be taking? Would he be doing English and history at home?

[Teachin'Mine]

One of the benefits to me would be that with semester long college courses he'd be able to advance more in his math and science courses.  The engineering class is a great idea for introducing him to the various fields of engineering and may give him some direction, or help him to just clarify if engineering is still his goal.  While it is common to complete algebra II in 10th, it does help to have exposure to as much calculus as possible, even if he should decide to repeat those courses at his 4-year.  Having a good algebra based physics course will make it that much easier when he takes the calculus based ones either as DE or at his 4-year.

 

The downside is that it's not on an actual college campus, but the classes are free.  Maybe he could supplement with one or two on campus courses sometime before he graduates just to have that experience going forward.  If the college instructor keeps to the same syllabus as is used on campus, then the content and pacing should be comparable.  It sounds like your son has the work ethic to make the three classes work. I'd get all the information about whether students can withdraw or drop a class ahead of time so you know if that's an option.  Maybe you could use the rest of this year to teach him time management and help him to schedule his time himself.  Time management will likely be a factor for him next year, and your guidance can continue as needed with the goal of him becoming independent for his senior year or by graduation.

 

I'd also keep in mind that while he may or may not get college credit, the transcript and grades will be permanent.   I'd also try to speak with students who are currently in these dual enrollment classes and their parents.  You'll get a sense of whether it's the advanced students who are taking these classes or not and how they are managing with the faster pace of college courses.  I'd also consider a college readiness course for this summer if you think he could use any help with note taking, time management, study skills, etc.. 

 

I think it sounds like a great opportunity for a student who wants challenging classroom learning.

[katilac]

 

He'll be attending his first year at our state U and living at home.   

 

<snip>

 

From a social aspect we would be very uncomfortable with him taking them AT the college.  This is going to be at the high school.  It's a big school so the teachers from CC come over a couple days a week to teach the dual enrolled students.  So, while I'm certain it won't be the same as home, it will be all juniors and seniors and more academically motivated students.   

 

Is there something in particular about the college atmosphere that worries you, or is it just the idea that he will be with older students?  I know every situation is different, but we haven't had a bit of trouble or concern with dd16 at the local university. She's in class or study groups, not at frat parties  :tongue_smilie:

 

I actually prefer the social atmosphere at college over high school. There's less posturing and less pressure to 'prove yourself' socially. It's a more varied group. I definitely wouldn't automatically dismiss it just because of the age factor. 

 

 

Expensive text over $100 -  IMHO a .org should try to be as free as possible - get donor companies to sponsor things like the text books and offer them for essentially print costs or use a Bookboon type outfit - this is college text rip-off pricing

 

They can't control the price of texts, and that one certainly isn't unusually expensive. I'm sure they'd love to have texts donated, but obtaining large sponsors isn't as easy as you might imagine! 

[G5052]

Yes, they do dual enrollment at the local high schools with teachers who report to the college. Here they've chosen to go to dual enrollment classes where they also take the AP if that's available.  This is the first year of that, so I don't know how it's going to come out.  Previously they had only an average record with the AP's (i.e. largely 2's and 3's), so this is an attempt to also pull that up.

 

For me, the disadvantage would be getting them there every day.  I also do *NOT* like the environment of the local high school.  It is constructed like a prison, and they run it like a prison.  Mine hate even going there to take their college tests.  The state law also allows them to let everyone else enroll, and then it is up to the school whether homeschoolers can enroll in a particular class or not.  A friend of mine had to wait until literally a few days before school started to hear if her kid was allowed to take dual enrollment history at the high school, and then they said that they didn't have room. To me that would be a big disadvantage. I also was uneasy about committing to something that is still very new (just started).

 

I've written here before about my experience as a professor who teaches a lot of homeschooled dual enrollment kids. It doesn't always go well even apart from the issues with being on a college campus with adults (which some kids sail through and some do not).

 

It can be a significant transition to college-level material in a classroom.  For that reason, I wouldn't put a kid into a lot of dual enrollment right away regardless of where it is taught.  I'd do at most two classes, and see how it goes.  Dual enrollment goes on your permanent record because you have to provide college transcripts of every college when you apply.  So it counts.

HTH!

[Kessepha]

The cons... driving, driving, driving!

My son is dual enrolled this year.  He's already had six credits accepted for transfer to his college for next year.  (Writing did not transfer, I think because the school really wants freshmen to all take their writing course, but he benefitted from the dual enrollment course anyway, as he's a slow writer.)  He took core requirements he'd like to have out of the way. 

 

I live by a color coded driving chart as I have one dual enrolled, one in school, one homeschooled with other outside classes.  Next year, I can't wait for the simple life again!

 

But other than the driving, there have been no downsides.  He's been exposed to college, has had practice in dealing with advisors and professors, and has met a far more diverse group of fellow students.   Its been a wonderful bridge into college for him and I think we're both much more confident sending him to college with dual enrollment under his belt. 

 

And the school gave him a 2/3 tuition break (different schools have different deals) so we were paying what we'd pay for private classes anyway.

 

Go for it!
 

[G5052]

They can't control the price of texts, and that one certainly isn't unusually expensive. I'm sure they'd love to have texts donated, but obtaining large sponsors isn't as easy as you might imagine! 

 

Actually the trend in my state is to use open source, online texts.  There is a lot of state grant money so that professors can find and put together classes using these sorts of things.  I was pleasantly surprised when I was pricing my oldest's college books for the fall to see that two of his classes are using open source materials.  So instead of $500+ for five classes, it is more like $350.

 

So there is hope!

[katilac]

Actually the trend in my state is to use open source, online texts.  There is a lot of state grant money so that professors can find and put together classes using these sorts of things.  I was pleasantly surprised when I was pricing my oldest's college books for the fall to see that two of his classes are using open source materials.  So instead of $500+ for five classes, it is more like $350.

 

So there is hope!

 

This was in reference to the Engineering for High School text, though. CK-12 does have an open source high school text, but it definitely does not include anywhere near the same amount of material. I was mainly responding to the idea that the non-profit was carelessly selecting a book with "college text rip-off pricing;" it's not a college text, it's very hard to find good high school texts on less popular subjects, and even harder to find donors willing to fund them! 

 

I'm of two minds on open source, online texts. One, quality of open source materials varies widely, and I'd rather pay more than use a substandard text. Two, I really dislike having online texts as the only option. Both my kids hate them, and my personal observation is that students do not perform as well with online texts only. But I do value the open source education movement highly in general. 

[AngieW in Texas]

DE courses have been completely on the pro side here. I wouldn't do DE courses at a high school though. My kids have done all of their DE courses at the cc campus. They really enjoyed the mix of ages in their classes. We do have a really good cc system here. Ours is not filled with the unmotivated. My kids were often the only ones in their classes who were under 25yo. My 16yo became very good friends with a 70yo woman in her English class. She also really enjoyed all the vets in her class. At least half of her class was filled with former soldiers.

 

In our system, only public school students are allowed to take the cc classes on the high school campuses, but that's fine with me, because my kids don't want to be on a high school campus.

 

The cost for us is only the cost of books and supplies. The tuition is free for the first 12 classes they take.They are limited to just 2 classes each semester until they have completed 12 credit hours at the cc and have a certain minimum GPA and minimum test scores (SAT/ACT/TSI).

[G5052]

 

I'm of two minds on open source, online texts. One, quality of open source materials varies widely, and I'd rather pay more than use a substandard text. Two, I really dislike having online texts as the only option. Both my kids hate them, and my personal observation is that students do not perform as well with online texts only. But I do value the open source education movement highly in general. 

 

Yes, as a professor, I agree with this.  Both colleges I work for have very detailed procedures for how this is done BTW.  When that is implemented, it is very closely monitored in test sections before committing to it wholesale.  When it is listed in the schedule, they also clearly identify that they are using an online set of texts so that the students have a choice.

 

I haven't dug very far into it because the full-time faculty in my department determined that it wasn't something they wanted to pursue at this time.

 

My oldest will have this next fall for English and the "student success" seminar that all freshmen have to take.  The English professor we want only uses that kind of text, so I may actually shoot him an email to get his perspective.  I'm not an English professor, but it would seem to me from what I've read that it would be a good fit for English 101 where they're reading shorter works and reference materials.

 

Engineering?  Probably not.

[8filltheheart]

Whether or not the load is appropriate is impossible to say except in pure generalities. I would think a large part would depend on the workload and pace of material being covered at home and the student's personal self-management skills.

 

Is the math class a repeat of alg 2 and trig or is it pre-cal?

[BlsdMama]

This thread has been shockingly helpful.

 

THANK YOU.

 

 

So, I had checked into it and found that they have a credit transfer program...  However, at the urging of the forum, I went to our state U and pulled the requirements for his desired major - Civil Engineering.  He's done one job shadow and will do another in the Spring and he's really quite certain this is what he wants to do.  DH was an engineering major for a couple years but then went with something else and now works as an analyst for an aerospace company so DH is knowledgeable, but obviously courses and requirements change.  He also took the scenic route to graduation for his "four year" degree.  He was far more efficient with his graduate degrees, but the scenic route was insanely expensive and something we are VERY motivated to help Christian avoid.

 

Pulling their requirements for Civil Engineering made what ya'all are saying CRYSTAL clear.  There are incredibly few electives.

 

Essentially if you want your kiddo to graduate in four years from an engineering program they must be INCREDIBLY motivated and stay direct on point.  There isn't the "fluff" room for electives that there is in humanities, which is what we've experienced with Ana.

 

I'm also hearing you on the community college environment.  He had to do COMPASS testing at the local CC on Friday to prove he was capable of taking the classes he wanted and I had the opportunity and go.  I was really floored by the number of grown men taking classes and I can see how that would encourage an entirely different atmosphere.

 

Blessedly we have the choice of him attending the CC campus or the high school for classes.  I had automatically assumed like aged peers was the better choice, but I'm seeing the wisdom in what you're saying.

 

 

 

So, let me modify my question:

 

 

If I used the CC to teach classes I feel ill prepared to teach to more adequately prepare him to go into the engineering program, AND it's of no cost to me ($30 registration fee & books) then do you feel this is worthwhile?  Pros?  Cons?

 

Frankly, homeschooling with this many children, I am finding myself falling short.  I think we did a good job of prepping Ana but her strengths were similar to mine.  Christian is similar to his Dad but frankly, DH doesn't have the time to devote to work, family, and teaching CJ.  

 

I like the IDEA of Project Lead the Way as an idea to foster STEM interest in kids in middle and high school, but I can also see that while it transfers as an "elective" it may not be value added beyond testing interest.

 

I think I'm getting a far clearer picture of what dual enrollment will add.  I suspect his classes this year would lend itself better towards focusing on math.  And then?  Take Chem at the CC level?  Or Physics?  Would you?  At CC?

 

As far as the load, I can only say this is a VERY motivated child.  He is very organized and focused.  He wakes up in the morning, makes a list, begins his work, does extra.  He is taking a Chem class / lab this year outside of the home and I am floored at the amount of effort he puts into it, adding extra videos, books, etc., to more fully understand the topic each week.  And, as the class began in September and it's now March, it isn't a passing fancy where he pushes forward with effort at the beginning and then loses focus.    Ana made Dean's List this year at the state uni and Christian is capable of time management and focus as well as her.  They both take after their daddy - very organized and "push on" type kiddos.  But I also don't want to burn him out....  But he LOVES math.  Loves it.  

 

Second question - Would you put him in an easier class to begin?  For example rather than Integrated Algebra and Trig - just go with Intermediate Algebra first semester as a trial run and confidence booster even though it would essentially count for nothing except prep work.

 

I want to add here that your experience and input is invaluable.  I'm very grateful for the effort everyone puts into giving worthwhile advice on this forum.  Thank you so much.

[8filltheheart]

I don't have my kids tread gently into DE nor do they repeat any courses. They jump in at the level they are ready for. It has been a good match for my kids. They are used to tough workloads and self-management and have had zero adjustment to college classes.

 

I don't understand the titles of the math courses you have listed. Is he doing well with the Foerster's book? If so and he loves math, I would put him in pre-cal. He should be well prepared for it.

 

To give you an idea, I am thinking about having our 16 yod take cal at our CC in the fall. She is taking DO's pre-cal this yr and neither of us is satisfied. She finds it insanely easy after Foerster's. She goes in search of harder problems to apply concepts to bc she wants to make sure she understands. She hates standardized testing so she doesn't want to go the AP route. But, there is no way that I would have her repeat pre-cal.

[G5052]

Yes, I always recommend just one class to start with at the CC. The local one I work for has policies in place to that effect, particularly for 15-16 y.o. students.

 

Science is fine, but make sure that you choose the right science. Generally there are classes for non-science majors and classes for STEM majors. 

 

Locally I don't recommend any of the sciences at the CC without a solid high school class unless it is a very gifted, determined student with an extremely strong science background, but this is a small CC with a particular focus on the health sciences and college transfer programs.  They only offer one kind of biology, and it is doable by non-majors because it is very well-organized, but it requires a lot of memorization that seems to overwhelm most kids without a high school biology class.  The physics and chemistry offered in the classroom is for science majors and would overwhelm most students without the high school class.  Actually, I've been told that those are not good choices for college students who only need 2 semesters of a single science for their degree as well unless they really have a strong interest because they are very demanding. They offer chemistry for non-majors online, but I've heard that it's not a good online class in terms of instructions and organization.  I wouldn't start with an online dual enrollment class anyway.

 

At a community college further away they do offer classroom versions of chemistry and physics for non-majors that I've heard are fine for mature kids who haven't done those at all in high school.  

 

I've also heard of science-oriented kids who did science in high school and then did the science classes for science majors for dual enrollment.

 

It really depends on the kid and the local situation though.

[katilac]

I definitely feel that DE is worthwhile, and we pay a lot more than that!  It's worth it for us even if none of the classes transfer, b/c she needs the classes now, and they don't cost anymore than the vast majority of online classes. I groan about the driving, but it's worth it. 

 

Regarding the math, we put dd into pre-calc even though she tested into calc. However, we knew that a lot of her score was based on mathematical intuition, rather than solid skills, b/c she hadn't even started Algebra 2 when she took the test. If your son placed solidly into pre-calc, loves math, and has been doing well with the Foerster's, he would probably be fine.

 

We second guess our decision sometimes, b/c dd wishes this class were more challenging at times, and she certainly does not love math. The math department might let you look at a syllabus, or at least tell you which chapters are typically covered in which class. 

 

You do have the advantage of being able to rearrange his work at home if he gets slammed with multiple tests or projects at the CC at the same time! 

[quark]

My experience is still new but since there is some parallel to yours...

 

- He is finding CC math disappointing so far. The second semester of calculus is a small improvement from the first but too much time is being spent on concepts that don't need as much time to explain, and the prof is assigning the easier homework problems only. Kiddo is bogged down with the tediousness of the homework, not the challenge. He wants to complete as much as he can to maintain his A average and this is taking time away from attempting harder problems and harder texts on his own. We are going to explore different options for further math courses. It is becoming clearer and clearer that the classes at this CC for math at least are aimed at different goals from ours.

 

So I would not suggest an easier math class (based on our experience). It might be way too easy and as a result, boring, frustrating, just plain tedious.

 

- He is finding CC physics (the first of a sequence of lab based physics major classes for scientists and engineers) just right in terms of challenge (just right enough level to just struggle a little to maintain an A average) and workload but I think this is mostly because his math is very strong. He had one intro physics class (online through Derek Owens) and one intro conceptual physics class (modern physics) at the CC prior to this class. He feels that this was sufficient preparation.

[MarkT]

My experience is still new but since there is some parallel to yours...

 

- He is finding CC math disappointing so far. The second semester of calculus is a small improvement from the first but too much time is being spent on concepts that don't need as much time to explain, and the prof is assigning the easier homework problems only..

 

 

This is also my biggest issue with my son's current math class at his charter school. There is a reason that the textbook has those problems. Assign some of them please!  Oh well, after-schooling math this summer to fill in the math gaps once again. 

[Ellie]

 

If I used the CC to teach classes I feel ill prepared to teach to more adequately prepare him to go into the engineering program, AND it's of no cost to me ($30 registration fee & books) then do you feel this is worthwhile?  Pros?  Cons? YES!!!

 

 

I think I'm getting a far clearer picture of what dual enrollment will add.  I suspect his classes this year would lend itself better towards focusing on math.  And then?  Take Chem at the CC level?  Or Physics?  Would you?  At CC? Whatever he can take at the c.c., YES.

 

 

Second question - Would you put him in an easier class to begin?  For example rather than Integrated Algebra and Trig - just go with Intermediate Algebra first semester as a trial run and confidence booster even though it would essentially count for nothing except prep work. Yes.

 

 

 

[katilac]

Something I want to add to this discussion--save ALL work, even from the uni or CC. We have run into FOUR different schools that have demanded the students' college-level work. I had not kept it for some of my older ones--figuring, they had the transcript--why do they need tests, etc? We mailed off over 30 lbs of stuff to CO Mines! Oldest dd needed stuff from both her first and second Master's and the start of the doctorate that she did not finish, for this doctorate. Army girl needed DE work for U of WY and transferring credits. We learned the hard way... 

 

 

 

I remembered a thread about this, maybe yours, so when dd started DE I started a special binder to keep the work. 

 

It's pretty empty! All French homework is online, and they don't get to keep their tests. All math homework, quizzes, and tests are online. 

 

So, it's got a few French extra credit papers in it, and half a dozen English papers! 

[klmama]

Even regular classes may have all or most of the assignments and tests online.  Oldest dc took a campus-based CC class last fall that had an online text, online assignments, and online tests.  Dc saved the syllabus, but it never occurred to us to take screen shots of the assignments.  Next time we'll do that, too!