Struggling to priortize English goals given exam requirements vs what I think he should know

[lewelma]

 My older son has little time to give to humanities given that he might actually be internationally competitive in math. Here in NZ, he must pass an 11th grade English exam but does not require any other humanities.   In case he wants to attend University in Australia, I would like him to get through the 12th grade English exam and in case he wants to attend a university in America, he will do a light weight history class each year (but without a writing component).

 

So here is the problem, I have been looking at the English exam, and I think that to do well he will need to seriously focus on Literary Analysis for a number of years. He likes literature, a lot, and is very well read, and I don't think that he will mind this kind of focus.  However, I feel like he would be well served in life and university by learning to write persuasive essays on nonfiction topics using a text like The Language of Composition by Shea or They Say: I Say, moves that matter in academic writing.  He just doesn't have time for both.  And if I split his time in half between these two goals, I think that he may not do very well on his English Exam in a few years.

 

How do you chose how to prioritize?  What questions should I ask myself?

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth in NZ

[regentrude]

What kind of lit analysis skills does the exam test?

 

 

I think that to do well he will need to seriously focus on Literary Analysis for a number of years.

I do not believe a student who reads widely has to study lit analysis specifically for years - we did not. We just read, and DD skimmed a book on literary terms. Her English profs at both her DE university and her current college praise her insightful lit analysis essays.

 

So, I don't think it has to be one or the other.

[8filltheheart]

I'm having a hard time understanding why he couldn't split his time between the various types of assignments for writing. Solid writing skills cross across different disciplines and being able to alter voice for audience and subject is a skill that should be mastered.   At the high school level, they all work toward solidifying essential skills.

[maize]

Has he done amy literary analysis? A student who is wide-read and likes literature may not need as much focus on analysis as you think. I had a mediocre at best school situation for 9th and 10th grades, with truly minimal English classes, then went into an IB program for 11th and 12th with English as one of my high level subjects and did just fine. I was a voracious reader, that made a much bigger difference than how much instruction I had in literary analysis. I am guessing that your son would be just fine spending a year or so on academic writing.

[katilac]

In what specific ways do they test literary analysis skills?  know you've looked at the exam, but I would also try to talk to people who have taken it (or their kids have taken it). Even if there is a significant essay portion or lots of free response, the grading is generally going to be different for a timed test where the student goes in cold, as opposed to a planned response paper that they have a lot of time to prepare for and work on. I would definitely try to talk to people who have been there, done that. 

 

Do you have test guides available, or is that more of an American thing? Or can you buy a typical text used in the schools, just so you don't have to pull something together on your own? I'm a big believer in 'slow and steady wins the race.' I've been amazed at how much my kids learn when we include even a very short time for it several days a week, but for a long period of time. I'm talking about just 10 or even 5 minutes, just reading a very few pages and discussing, maybe reminding them of certain vocabulary, etc. 

 

We do it together, and my kids barely consider it work, because they're just sitting there listening and talking. Then, when we do get to the point that one of them does have to move on and do more studying and output, it's considerably easier and less time-consuming, because they have slowly absorbed lots of the information over time. 

 

 

 

[Penguin]

Are you sure you want NO writing for the history credit? I realize that you are just checking-the-box in history on the off chance that he wants to go to an American university. But even a git-er-done history class would have a writing component of some sort.

 

I think that persuasive, thesis-driven essays about government, history and politics would be a great place for that type of writing. In your case, I would try to move it out of English.

 

But if you really can't do both and the one type for the exam claims the time you have, then I suppose that is that.

[JanetC]

How do you prioritize is the big question in the high school years....

 

I'm facing the opposite problem with my 11th grader -- how do I make sure my arts-focused kid gets her math and science?  And, I've got it from your direction with my 9th grader, who is science-focused and doesn't get "enough" literature....

 

If he needs to pass the 11th grade English exam to legally graduate, then obviously you prioritize that.  Missing graduation requirements is not an option.  But, is there a reason that you need the "top score" versus the "got 'er done" score in literary analysis?  If he is well-read in literature, you might work on getting him well-read in what good literary analysis looks like at the same time, and that might give him a foundation for a more quick-test-prep approach to the exam itself? 

 

 

Whatever you cannot do in large quantity, just do the best you can with the time you have available.  My 9th grade DD is doing a literature anthology with (gasp!) excerpts as well as complete works.  She'll get the most exposure to a variety of authors and styles in the limited time she has, even though she is doing fewer novels than most classical homeschoolers would do.

 

--Janet

[lewelma]

What kind of lit analysis skills does the exam test?

 

 It is a 3 hour essay exam.

Part 1: a 500 word essay on a known text answering one of a selection of questions that vary every year (2014 questions listed below),

part 2: a 500 word essay on a known film or oral text answering similar type of questions,

part 3: three 200 word essays on unfamiliar texts (1 nonfiction, 1 poem, 1 short story)

 

To get an 'excellence' he must 'develop an integrated and perceptive critical response to a specified aspect(s) of written text(s) using supporting evidence'. He must have all required quotes from known texts memorized.

 

Last year's questions for Part 1:

QUESTIONS (Choose ONE) 

 

To what extent do you agree with this statement? Respond to this question with close reference to one or more text(s) you have studied.

 

1. “Major characters can find themselves in collision with forces beyond their control, and in many cases their responses to the collision can be described as morally questionable.â€

 

2. “Forget the big players in the world; it is the people in the margins of our society whose stories are most compelling.â€

 

3. “The setting that is most accessible and relevant to the reader is the one that is grounded in realism.â€

 

4. “While the conclusion of a text is important, what really matters is the foundation of a good opening.â€

 

5. “The use of symbolism can transform the most straightforward theme.â€

 

6. “A successful text will be one in which the reader is asked to be more than a spectator, in fact they are encouraged to be involved.â€

 

7. “In order to be informative, the shape and / or style of a text must always be straightforward.â€

 

8. “An exceptional text will be one that handles facts and opinion with care.â€

 

 

 

[lewelma]

I do not believe a student who reads widely has to study lit analysis specifically for years - we did not. We just read, and DD skimmed a book on literary terms. Her English profs at both her DE university and her current college praise her insightful lit analysis essays.

 

 

Ah, Regentrude.  I don't think my ds is your dd's equal in writing.

 

 

I'm having a hard time understanding why he couldn't split his time between the various types of assignments for writing. Solid writing skills cross across different disciplines and being able to alter voice for audience and subject is a skill that should be mastered.   At the high school level, they all work toward solidifying essential skills.

 

I completely agree.  But there is only one type of writing that he will be tested on.  Hence the need to think this through.

 

 

Has he done amy literary analysis? A student who is wide-read and likes literature may not need as much focus on analysis as you think. I had a mediocre at best school situation for 9th and 10th grades, with truly minimal English classes, then went into an IB program for 11th and 12th with English as one of my high level subjects and did just fine. I was a voracious reader, that made a much bigger difference than how much instruction I had in literary analysis. I am guessing that your son would be just fine spending a year or so on academic writing.

 

He *loves* literary analysis, but only the discussion part.  He is not a particularly strong writer, nor very fast.  I also don't find that he is very insightful; more like a sponge at this stage.

 

 

Do you have test guides available, or is that more of an American thing? Or can you buy a typical text used in the schools, just so you don't have to pull something together on your own? I'm a big believer in 'slow and steady wins the race.' I've been amazed at how much my kids learn when we include even a very short time for it several days a week, but for a long period of time. I'm talking about just 10 or even 5 minutes, just reading a very few pages and discussing, maybe reminding them of certain vocabulary, etc. 

 

We do it together, and my kids barely consider it work, because they're just sitting there listening and talking. Then, when we do get to the point that one of them does have to move on and do more studying and output, it's considerably easier and less time-consuming, because they have slowly absorbed lots of the information over time. 

 

We discuss for an hour a day, and ds has even asked to do it during this *crazy* month.  He finds it a lovely break from his math.  But he doesn't find it easy to convert discussion into a thesis with three points with supporting evidence.  This will take time, and I'm thinking lots of it given that we have been doing this for 2 years already.

 

We have test books of a sort and we will use them, but they are more like a year long course than some quick guide.

 

 

[lewelma]

Are you sure you want NO writing for the history credit? I realize that you are just checking-the-box in history on the off chance that he wants to go to an American university. But even a git-er-done history class would have a writing component of some sort.

 

I think that persuasive, thesis-driven essays about government, history and politics would be a great place for that type of writing. In your case, I would try to move it out of English.

 

 

We are doing Ancient History this year, and he will be writing about Illiad/Odyssey.  If I have to get some writing into his history course, I can call this course "classics" and put these essays into it.  Given that this is really just a fall back option, I am willing to massage his writing into two buckets if the time comes that he needs a humanities credit. Last year, out of the blue, he decided he wanted to write about Ebola and about IS.  We were doing modern history, so I could just peel those out of English and call them current events papers.  I find the whole thing pretty mushy and am not worried about it really.  But thanks for the heads up that I should still keep it in the back of my mind.

 

 

 

 

If he needs to pass the 11th grade English exam to legally graduate, then obviously you prioritize that.  Missing graduation requirements is not an option.  But, is there a reason that you need the "top score" versus the "got 'er done" score in literary analysis?  If he is well-read in literature, you might work on getting him well-read in what good literary analysis looks like at the same time, and that might give him a foundation for a more quick-test-prep approach to the exam itself? 

 

 

Top Australian Universities are competitive, so I'm working on the assumption that an 'Achieve' on the exam will not cut it.  Plus, I do think that the thinking required to give an 'insightful' response is actually a good thing to strive for.  He really loves literature and I think he will appreciate being able to think at this level.

 

We are currently reading through good literary analysis.  But I find that it is very difficult to take professionally written lit analysis and translate it down to high school level.  And there is just not a lot out there as examples of great high school level work that he could emulate.  Happy for any examples that anyone has, but I have asked before an come up mostly blank.

 

Glad to hear that I am not the only one in this boat!

[lewelma]

I should also add that we have 1 hour per day to put to English.  He loves discussing and finds it very rejuvenating, but writing not so much.  Given his incredibly dense schedule this year, I have planned out 3 papers per term - so 12 this year.  Basically discuss 2 weeks, write 1 week.  But I'm thinking that on the non-writing weeks, we should squeeze in time to practice timed essays.  Just not sure how to go about this.

[regentrude]

To get an 'excellence' he must 'develop an integrated and perceptive critical response to a specified aspect(s) of written text(s) using supporting evidence'. He must have all required quotes from known texts memorized.

 

:confused1:  Memorized? Quotations from LITERATURE? How idiotic.

[lewelma]

:confused1:  Memorized? Quotations from LITERATURE? How idiotic.

 

Don't start with me.  It's nuts.  They go into the exam with a number of studied works in their minds that they will be able to discuss.  They have to support their responses with quotes from the works, so they have to be memorized. 

[regentrude]

 Last year's questions for Part 1:

QUESTIONS (Choose ONE) 

 

To what extent do you agree with this statement? Respond to this question with close reference to one or more text(s) you have studied.

 

1. “Major characters can find themselves in collision with forces beyond their control, and in many cases their responses to the collision can be described as morally questionable.â€

 

2. “Forget the big players in the world; it is the people in the margins of our society whose stories are most compelling.â€

 

3. “The setting that is most accessible and relevant to the reader is the one that is grounded in realism.â€

 

4. “While the conclusion of a text is important, what really matters is the foundation of a good opening.â€

 

5. “The use of symbolism can transform the most straightforward theme.â€

 

6. “A successful text will be one in which the reader is asked to be more than a spectator, in fact they are encouraged to be involved.â€

 

7. “In order to be informative, the shape and / or style of a text must always be straightforward.â€

 

8. “An exceptional text will be one that handles facts and opinion with care.â€

 

 

These are good questions - but I do not see that they require an extensive background in literary analysis.

An avid reader who is a strong writer will be able to express an opinion and substantiate it with examples - without having drilled lit analysis for years. This is where I see the transfer skills from other areas of writing 8FillTheHeart mentioned earlier be a big help.

[lewelma]

These are good questions - but I do not see that they require an extensive background in literary analysis.

An avid reader who is a strong writer will be able to express an opinion and substantiate it with examples - without having drilled lit analysis for years. This is where I see the transfer skills from other areas of writing 8FillTheHeart mentioned earlier be a big help.

 

But you have to answer them using literature.  Here are the rest of the instructions:

 

 

instructions

 

Write an essay on at least ONE written text that you have studied.

 

If you choose to write about more than one text, the texts may be:

• the same type (eg, two poems)

• a combination of different types (eg, a poem and a short story).

The texts may have the same or different authors, and you may compare or contrast the texts if you wish.

 

The text(s) can be any of the following:

• novel

• non-fiction

• non-Shakespearean drama

• Shakespearean drama

• short story

• poetry / song lyric

• print media

• digital / online text

OR

• a combination of the above (inter textual studies).

[lewelma]

Also, if ds can't get up to this exam, the 11th grade exam is his fall back and it *is* very clearly literary analysis.  AND I may not be able to get him into the 12th grade correspondence course in English (which he has to take to access the internal assessment which he has to have in addition to the exam), unless he can pass the 11th grade exam.  Here are the 11th grade questions:

 

 

1. Analyse how a main character OR individual matures and takes action in a text (or texts) you have studied.

 

2. Analyse how the growth OR breakdown of a relationship(s) affects the climax in a text (or texts) you have studied.

 

3. Analyse how the writer(s) has influenced your opinion of a choice made by a character OR individual in a text (or texts) you have studied.

 

4. Analyse how the setting of a text (or texts) you have studied influenced your understanding of the ideas in the text (or texts). (Note: Setting may include reference to time, place, historical or social context, or atmosphere.)

 

5. Analyse how an idea is developed in a text (or texts) you have studied.

 

6. Analyse how the writer(s) has created impact in a section of studied text (or texts).

 

7. Analyse how symbols are used to develop an idea in a text (or texts) you have studied.

 

8. Analyse how techniques of a genre or text type make a text(s) particularly effective for you. (Note: Genres and text types may include short story, novel, types of poetry and song, drama script, print or non-fiction texts.)

[regentrude]

 

But you have to answer them using literature. 

 

Of course you have to use literature - but what is required is to have read literature and to have thoughts about it that can be expressed. I don't buy that, in order to do this, one has to spend years specifically on formal lit analysis.

[lewelma]

Of course you have to use literature - but what is required is to have read literature and to have thoughts about it that can be expressed. I don't buy that, in order to do this, one has to spend years specifically on formal lit analysis.

 

Fair enough.  See previous post though.

 

Also, the problem is less lit analysis and more speed of writing and insightfulness of thought.  Writing 1500 words in 3 hours is a pretty big ask at least for my ds.

[regentrude]

 

Also, if ds can't get up to this exam, the 11th grade exam is his fall back and it *is* very clearly literary analysis.  AND I may not be able to get him into the 12th grade correspondence course in English (which he has to take to access the internal assessment which he has to have in addition to the exam), unless he can pass the 11th grade exam.  Here are the 11th grade questions:

1. Analyse how a main character OR individual matures and takes action in a text (or texts) you have studied.

2. Analyse how the growth OR breakdown of a relationship(s) affects the climax in a text (or texts) you have studied.

3. Analyse how the writer(s) has influenced your opinion of a choice made by a character OR individual in a text (or texts) you have studied.

4. Analyse how the setting of a text (or texts) you have studied influenced your understanding of the ideas in the text (or texts). (Note: Setting may include reference to time, place, historical or social context, or atmosphere.)

5. Analyse how an idea is developed in a text (or texts) you have studied.

6. Analyse how the writer(s) has created impact in a section of studied text (or texts).

7. Analyse how symbols are used to develop an idea in a text (or texts) you have studied.

8. Analyse how techniques of a genre or text type make a text(s) particularly effective for you. (Note: Genres and text types may include short story, novel, types of poetry and song, drama script, print or non-fiction texts.)

 

But (maybe aside from #8), aren't these things one picks up from reading and thinking about a book anyway - without specific year long instruction ?

 

 

 

[lewelma]

have to run to tutor, will be back in an hour.  Thanks for helping me think this through.

[regentrude]

Also, the problem is less lit analysis and more speed of writing and insightfulness of thought.  Writing 1500 words in 3 hours is a pretty big ask at least for my ds.

 

May they write by hand, or must they type? Depending on that, I'd work to increase the speed of the writing mechanics itself.

[JanetC]

All right, it sounds like he gets to choose the text and he gets a lot of choice on what to say about that text.  So, I would concentrate on covering fewer works, but in as much detail as possible.  My 11th grader would find this pretty feasible to train for with Shakespeare -- she naturally memorizes and recites her favorite passages anyway.

 

For the questions about "unfamiliar texts" -- do the kids get passages to read and interpret during the exam, or how does that work?

 

Is there a test-prep industry like they have in the US, where you could invest in books or tutors to get the tips and tricks?  It may be that part of the problem is that you haven't trained a student to go through this test before and and you're making it harder than it has to be.  Also, how much growing and maturing time do you have before the 11th grade test?  You may have a very different kid taking the exam than the one you have before you today.

[Muttichen]

This really doesn't sound all that much different from the open essay (question three) on the AP Lit exam.  You can find lots of practice questions here: http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/exam/exam_information/2002.html

 

What I would do is look through the "Question Threes" for questions that fit the works you're reading and discussing and choose one and have him write his essay answering it using the work you've been discussing.  Then he can compare his essay to the high scoring sample online and revise it.  This wouldn't take a lot of extra time now, but would take what you're already doing and use it to prepare him for the test.

[yvonne]

The exam doesn't seem like a specifically "literary analysis" type of exam. It appears to be wide open to writing about anything in print---book or digital, literature or non-fiction. Several of the sample questions could be answered with either a non-fiction work or a literary work.

 

If I were in your spot and were worried about the exam, I would do very targeted literature study as part of your English studies and very targeted non-fiction study as part of your history studies. Quality of texts over quantity; depth over breadth. 

 

Pick a couple of works of literature that are fairly broad in their applications/themes and that each use a variety of literary elements to focus on over the next two years. (Personally, for one of these, I'd pick ONE Shakespeare play and study it inside & out, come at it from every angle. One play would cover a lot of bases. I'd bet there would be at least two or three questions on that type of exam that a student could answer with any one of Shakespeare's plays! If your son doesn't like Shakespeare, check out the list of books that come up most frequently on the AP Lit exams and see if there are one or two works that appeal to him.)  Use some of the AP essay prompts to practice writing on the selected works.

 

For non-fiction, your son is already reading and writing(?) about his history interests. He's clearly intellectually curious. He will undoubtedly come across at least one quality text/article that makes an impact on him. Or, hopefully, two from different angles that he could compare/contrast in response to one of the exam questions.

 

 

It sounds like the concern may be your son's writing ability more than his ability to analyze a text.  There's really no cure for that other than writing, writing, and writing. And, as pp have pointed out, writing across the curriculum will help him write soundly in any situation, including this English exam.

 

 

[katilac]

But (maybe aside from #8), aren't these things one picks up from reading and thinking about a book anyway - without specific year long instruction ?

 

For some people, the transition from reading and thinking about books to writing about them comes fairly naturally. For others, it is much more difficult, and explicit, sometimes long-term, instruction is indeed needed. 

 

This can be true even of students who are very strong in discussion as well. 

 

Somebody recently posted a step-by-step method for practicing for the ACT writing test, and I know I saved it somewhere. I'll look for it, or perhaps someone else has it at the ready. The ACT essay isn't as detailed as this exam by any means, but maybe you could use the method as a template and adapt it a bit. 

 

I must have had a million people tell me that my very strong, avid reader would pick up spelling without specific instruction. That is SO not what happened, lol. 

[8filltheheart]

While those questions themselves pertain to literature, learning to write persuasive essays which answer similar questions do not have to employ only literature. For example, what influences in ________'s childhood impacted his political/philosophical/theological (whatever pertains to the individual) views? Or how did the discovery of________ change the understanding of __________? How did the political environment after _______ lead to _______ 's rise in power?

 

Learning to formulate an argument based on personal evaluation is the backbone of those questions. Mastering how to relate them back to a work of literature, once the process itself is mastered, should not be much of a leap. For example, how did Frodo's insignificance as a worthy opponent lead him to be victorious over Sauron?

 

The essential writing skills required are the same. Only the topic is shifted from real life to literary evaluation. The actual need for literary terminology is pretty minimal. There just aren't that many key terms needed to write generic essays.

[lewelma]

For some people, the transition from reading and thinking about books to writing about them comes fairly naturally. For others, it is much more difficult, and explicit, sometimes long-term, instruction is indeed needed. 

 

 

This.  My son can read well and has read incredibly widely, deep hard books.  And he *loves* to discuss.  But the translation of this to writing is just not there.  What I am trying to say is that I think he will need to write this style of essay over and over and over to be able to do it under time pressure.  And given that he has very limited time to put to all humanities, I think we need to focus on this one type of essay at the detriment to his learning to write in other ways. 

 

I feel like a lot of you are saying that it will not take long, but I just don't see that. 

[lewelma]

May they write by hand, or must they type? Depending on that, I'd work to increase the speed of the writing mechanics itself.

 

Very good point.  It is by hand, and he only types at this point. So we will do all our speed work with pen and paper.

 

 

 

All right, it sounds like he gets to choose the text and he gets a lot of choice on what to say about that text.  So, I would concentrate on covering fewer works, but in as much detail as possible.  My 11th grader would find this pretty feasible to train for with Shakespeare -- she naturally memorizes and recites her favorite passages anyway.

 

Yes, I agree. Fewer works. We are focusing on horror this year, so I think we will be doing:

Short story: The call of Cthulhu by Lovecraft

Play: Macbeth

Poetry: The Raven, The Kracken, Kubla Khan

Film - undecided

Novel - undecided, I would like to do something short/easy like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. He would like to do The Brothers Karamazov. :blink:   He does like *deep* literature!

 

I have been told that although you can use nonfiction for the essays, so few kids do that the marks are not usually very good.  Better to focus on fiction.

 

 

For the questions about "unfamiliar texts" -- do the kids get passages to read and interpret during the exam, or how does that work?

 

yes, 1 text for 1 essay.

 

As for the test prep industry: no not really.  I'm going to start looking for someone to read essays and comment.  The correspondence school is pretty useless when it comes to useful comments.

[lewelma]

But (maybe aside from #8), aren't these things one picks up from reading and thinking about a book anyway - without specific year long instruction ?

 

I'd like to talk about what I mean by instruction, because I'm thinking that we are not talking about the same thing.

 

I am suggesting that to get my son to think deeply and insightfully, we will need to discuss, a lot, as in an hour a day. I also plan to team write some essays to get him thinking about how to create a thesis on literature, as he just doesn't look at literature as something where you would want to prove anything with quotes, etc. Literature for him is just a joy. He reads, we talk, he loves it. *Writing* academic lit analysis is like pulling teeth. And I really don't want to ruin this love that he has. This is my STEM boy, and his love of literature helps him to be more *human*.

 

What I really don't want is for this to be a prep-for-the-test thing because I think he will really turn off. I've told him today that I'm starting to think that the material for NCEA is quite good and that it will guide us well in creating a really good understanding of literature. I think this is bunk, but he needs to think it is worth his time or he will disengage.

 

So when I say years of instruction, perhaps I mean years of practice, some of which would be with me holding his hand. It has been suggested to me that you write 5 essays on each work that you study - kind of hitting it from lots of different ways. We can do this, and I might be able to sell it, but I don't think he would like it overly much.

 

He can memorize poetry terms, cinematography material etc, so that is not really an issue.

 

But given how much practice I think he needs on writing lit analysis, I still don't think that leaves me much room for basically the equivalent of AP language. I feel like AP language would help him more in his career path, but that AP literature is what the exam is. (I'm saying this without full knowledge of these 2 exams, so please don't go off on a tangent on APs as we don't take these exams). Perhaps doing AP literature will train him in that type of humanities thinking and it will be completely transferable to other types of writing. I don't know.

 

But I am saying, there is NOT time for writing across the curriculum. We must *choose* how to spend his humanities time. I have not been posting much of our journey on the high school board, so not all of you will know that this boy is a specialist and I have chosen to allow him to follow this path to some extent. He usually spends about 4-6 hours a day on math, but this month he will work 50 hours a week on Math, yes, I did say 50 hours a week. And even so, he has still asked to do his 1 hour lit discussion every day.

 

And one more detail: ds may be in 10th grade this year (another thread really because it is complicated), which means I have 1.75 years before the first exam, and then entry into the correspondence school for English which gives lots of required assignments with incredibly little feedback. So he will need to go in ready to get an 'excellence'. Sigh.

[8filltheheart]

How does he do in writing persuasive essays on topics from history? Just trying to understand his general essay skills. When I read your posts it is hard for me to understand if it is a weakness in lit analysis or a weakness in writing.

 

Fwiw, since he has the option of attending university w/o gen ed requirements, how does he feel about the US system and the requirement at many top schools of taking their designated core? (My kids find gen ed courses at the college level more annoying than in high school. They enjoy some of them, but some they would happily avoid if they could.)

[lewelma]

 

8, I think that is an excellent way to think about things.  I think his weakness is in speed.  I also have to coach him into a thesis with support.  Here is an end of 8th grade essay. Please don't quote as I will delete it. 

 

This was the essay that made me think that doing something like They Say: I Say would be really useful.  We began to rewrite it using the ideas from the book, and it made so much more sense.  But it would take him a number of essays to internalize that way of writing.

 

 

Stopping the Spread of Ebola

 

 

Ebola is a contagious disease that kills 55% of those affected by it. It is spread through bodily fluids and currently has no cure. Currently, there is an outbreak only in Africa; however, medical workers and other travelers from many countries are visiting Africa to provide assistance and could bring the disease back to their home country. To insure the disease does not spread throughout the world, people returning from affected areas should be manditorily quarantined.

 

Clearly, it is best to be on the safe side to stop Ebola from turning into an epidemic, and that is what quarantining would do. Some people, however, would argue that because Ebola is only contagious once the patient has symptoms (and even then it only spreads through bodily fluids), immigration officials could tell travelers from Africa to go to the hospital immediately if any symptoms appeared. But the problem with this plan is that we cannot trust the patient specifically because having symptoms to the disease means likely death. Any patient, maybe even affected medical workers, might lie to themselves until they were certain they had the disease at which point they could have been contagious for a while. If, however, the patient had been in quarantine, whether or not he had the disease would be measured objectively, and even if the symptoms are discovered after the patient is contagious, the patient would still be unable to affect anyone.

 

At this point some people may think that because house quarantine gives more freedom to the possible Ebola victim and is much less expensive than hospital quarantine, it is a better option. In house quarantine the patient is told not to leave their house for any reason and to avoid contact with people. However, there are several problems with this option. For a start, if the patient shares his home with a family would they be needlessly quarantined as well? And if the family is not quarantined and the patient finds out that he has Ebola, would his family and all of the people they had had contact with be quarantined as well. Another argument for house quarantine is that it is much less expensive. And it is true that the price of a hospital quarantine would become a problem if the disease becomes an epidemic but currently the number of people who need to be quarantined are in the tens so the extra price of a hospital quarantine does not out weigh the reduced risk that it gives.

 

The main problem with hospital quarantine is that it could discourage medical workers from going to affected countries to help fight the spread of the disease. One possibility is to allow medical workers to have house quarantine because they would know if they have symptoms. However, a medical workers is human and may fail to notice a symptom until after he is infectious. In addition, it is hard to define exactly who is a “medical worker†– just nurses and doctors or trained volunteers as well? Finally, our society prefers to treat every person the same – either everyone is quarantined or no one is. Another method to encourage medical workers to go to affected countries even though they would be later quarantined is to improve the conditions in a hospital quarantine: paying them for their lost time and maybe even giving them work while in quarantine so that they could continue to fight Ebola. Quarantine can be made palatable; all that must be done is to figure out how.

 

Ebola is a deadly contagious disease which is spreading worldwide. To stop this spread, travelers should be mandatorily quarantined in a hospital for 21 days. Although some think that home quarantine is a better option, it is not as effective in controlling contact rate. To insure that medical workers are not discouraged from traveling to Ebola affected countries, the conditions in hospital quarantining must be improved. Ebola could become the next world-wide epidemic; strong measures must be taken.

[lewelma]

Here is an 8th grade literary analysis.  Once again, I had to coach him on the development of thesis and support. But the thinking was his own and actually very insightful.  Problem was, once he had thought it all through, it seemed so obvious to him that he thought that it was not insightful and would be obvious to everyone else.  It took me quite some time to convince him it was worth writing.

 

Each of these essays would have taken about 5 hours to think through, outline, write, and edit.

 

Please don't quote.

 

Symbolism in Vaila

 

A major theme of Gothic literature is how the past can influence and haunt the present. Vaila by Shiel is about the last days of the House of Harfager which are strongly influenced by a terrible deed done centuries ago by its first member, Sweyn. After falling in love with the wife of his older brother, Harold, he imprisons him, cuts off his ears, and puts out one of his eyes. When Harold escapes, he is pushed off a cliff by Sweyn to fall to his death after which Sweyn then goes on to marry Harold's wife. Five-hundred years later, the house that the story is centered on is located on Vaila, a lonely island centered in the middle of a constant storm, and appears to have been built by a shade of Harold as a plan for revenge. The house symbolizes the torture, imprisonment, and death of Harold forcing the inhabitants to re-enact the last days of Harold, thus linking the present to the past.

 

The torturing of Harold, where he looses his ears and one of his eyes, is symbolized in the unusual location of the house. The “roar of the sea†as well as the “oppressive booming in the ears†of the constant storm surrounding Vaila is a constant reminder of Sweyn's terrible deed as well as torture. For just as Harold had no ears and lived in complete silence, the members of the House of Harfager are cursed to incredible hearing and to live in constant cacophony. “That by way of the ears do they drink the cup of furie of the earless Harold.†In addition since balance is caused by the inner ear, “never...[is] the sensation of giddiness holy absent.†One without ears would have the never ending feeling of dizziness. Finally, as the narrator first enters the house he observes “darkness now was around meâ€; the darkness in the house completes this comparison for one with only one eye everything is slightly dimmer.

 

Imprisonment in a dungeon is also symbolised by the house's environment and architectural design. Firstly, it is dark. Next, when Harfager leads the nameless narrator to the lowest level of the house, the narrator notes that “from the wide scampering that ensued on our entrance, the place was, it was clear, the abode of hordes of water-rats.†Harfager then says that he believes that they had “for some purpose, been placed there by the original architect.†Indicating that the rats were purposely set there to give the house the feel of a dungeon. Finally the house itself is chained, “from many points near the top of the brazen wall huge iron chains...reached out in symmetrical rays to points on the ground hidden by the flood.†Combined with the fact that the house is at no place fastened to the ground but instead sits a top a large brazen floor, this gives the impression that the house is chained to the ground to prevent it from escaping, meaning that the house in this case symbolises Harold in chains.

 

At the climax of the story, Harold's escape and death is reflected by the breaking of the house's chains and its plunge into the ocean. “I was instantly conscious of the harsh snap of something near me. There was a minute's breathless pause – and then – quick, quick – ever quicker – came the throb, the snap, and the pop, in vastly wide circular succession, of the anchoring chains of the mansion†and then finally “the ponderous palace moved.†The house starts spinning emulating the feeling the ear-less Harold had when he finally broke free of his chains. The mansion then slides into the sea ending the house of Harfager the same way the life of Harold ended, by falling into the sea.

 

The torture, imprisonment, and death of Harold is further expanded on through the deaths of the last three members of the house of Harfager. The first death is that of Swertha, Harfager's Aunt, who is strangled by Aith, a servant. The narrator's first impression of Aith is “a skeleton of a tall man...the glitter of a tiny eye, however,...quickly reassured me. Of ears, he showed no sign.†Just by the fact that Aith has only one eye and no ears makes us think that he might be some shade of Harold. In this case the torture has been reversed; Harold's ghost tortures and kills his brother's descendant. The next death is that of Harfager's mother who is already in a coffin, basically dead. Her unconscious body is protected by three strings each triggering a bell. Across the length of the story, the bells ring one by one indicating the rats have eaten through them and are closer to eating her. In the end the last bell rings, and we can only assume that she was eaten alive by rats. Thus, one of Sweyn's descendent's dies imprisoned. The final death is that of Harfager. He stays in the house to the very end and falls with the house into the sea, emulating the death of Harold. Thus, the last of the house of Harfager dies the way Harold did.

 

In this Gothic short story, the mansion and its surrounding environment re-enacts the past. The descendent's of Sweyn are tortured by the noise of the roaring of the storm, imprisoned by the longing remain at Vaila, and killed when the house falls into the sea. This sequence of events emulates and re-enacts the death of Harold. In addition, the house itself symbolises Harold as he is chained to the ground and symbolises how he falls into the ocean when the chains snap. In Vaila Sheil merges the story of the past with the story of the present in a clever and breathtaking manner.

[lewelma]

Fwiw, since he has the option of attending university w/o gen ed requirements, how does he feel about the US system and the requirement at many top schools of taking their designated core? (My kids find gen ed courses at the college level more annoying than in high school. They enjoy some of them, but some they would happily avoid if they could.)

 

You have made this insightful comment before, and I really think you are spot on.  I'm trying to keep his doors open, but maybe I should just close some.  As Laura has commented, it is extremely difficult to make a student competitive in  more than one country.   However, there are some full scholarships for international universities if he does well on the IMO -- I'm thinking Canada and China.  But he is just too young to know what he wants to do.  My guess is that he may end up at a top university in Australia, because NZ is pretty small for math.  But I am not pushing in any way. 

 

I just feel that learning to write his ebola essay in a more mature manner would be more valuable for *this* boy than focusing on lit analysis at speed.  But the exam is on lit analysis. That is the quandary.

[lewelma]

So I'm thinking a bit more.  I think I have 2 school years to get done basically AP literature and AP language in my ideal world, and I only have time for 1 of these (whose material is spread over 2 years). (but once again, I'm not talking AP here, just trying to talk Americanese so you guys have a feel for what I am saying).  So, I'm not sure there is a weakness in writing.  I think I just want to accomplish more than I have time for.  Sigh.  I hate prioritizing!  I just want to do it all!

 

I should also mention that ds has no opinion, and is happy to do whatever I think would be good for him. 

 

I think the problem is that because he is thinking of skipping a grade, I have only 3 years of highschool.  And one of those years will be a 'throw away' year because he will be taking English with the correspondence school which I don't respect. 

 

****

 

I do want to thank everyone for helping me think this through!

[lewelma]

Maybe the question is really how transferable are skills between AP lit and AP language?

[8filltheheart]

It is late here and I really more skimmed than read the two examples, but based on what I read, I am not sure what your concerns are. Those examples are solid for 8th grade writing.

 

I personally would not do what you are proposing, but that is your call to make. I would opt to alternate writing assignments across subjects and have 1paper due per month. Fwiw, I have shared this quote from Peter Kreeft before (he is a philosophy professor at BC). He says he has students that ask him to just assign essay topics and his response is, "No, why would I do 1/2 the work for you?" That pretty much sums it up. Developing a workable thesis is 1/2 the work. Your ds isn't a struggling writer. He is pretty much in the the same boat as most students...the thesis is hard and a skill that takes time and practice to develop. His writing skills themselves are definitely age appropriate.

[lewelma]

It is late here and I really more skimmed than read the two examples, but based on what I read, I am not sure what your concerns are. Those examples are solid for 8th grade writing.

 

I personally would not do what you are proposing, but that is your call to make. I would opt to alternate writing assignments across subjects and have 1paper due per month. Fwiw, I have shared this quote from Peter Kreeft before (he is a philosophy professor at BC). He says he has students that ask him to just assign essay topics and his response is, "No, why would I do 1/2 the work for you?" That pretty much sums it up. Developing a workable thesis is 1/2 the work. Your ds isn't a struggling writer. He is pretty much in the the same boat as most students...the thesis is hard and a skill that takes time and practice to develop. His writing skills themselves are definitely age appropriate.

 

Thanks 8, I did not think he was behind in writing, but it is nice to have an expert's opinion. 

 

Are you saying: 1 lit analysis paper and 1 history paper per month? 

 

And I agree with the quote.  I don't give him the thesis, I just have had to guide him a bit, remind him what he has to do.  Basically, scaffold.

 

I wonder if I just can't fathom how fast high schoolers learn.  People talk about the escalation, and maybe I just can't see the future given that this is my first.  I think you are saying that given his current level, he should be able to make the next level given the time we have.

[swimmermom3]

Ruth, the good news is that your ds is going to mature like crazy over the next two years. If he can discuss literature in depth now, with a bit of training he will be able to write about it just fine by test time.

 

While those questions themselves pertain to literature, learning to write persuasive essays which answer similar questions do not have to employ only literature. For example, what influences in ________'s childhood impacted his political/philosophical/theological (whatever pertains to the individual) views? Or how did the discovery of________ change the understanding of __________? How did the political environment after _______ lead to _______ 's rise in power?

Learning to formulate an argument based on personal evaluation is the backbone of those questions. Mastering how to relate them back to a work of literature, once the process itself is mastered, should not be much of a leap. For example, how did Frodo's insignificance as a worthy opponent lead him to be victorious over Sauron?

The essential writing skills required are the same. Only the topic is shifted from real life to literary evaluation. The actual need for literary terminology is pretty minimal. There just aren't that many key terms needed to write generic essays.

 

I would build on what Eight has written here. I would spend my first year working on writing solid essays that contain a clear argument that is supported. You have the Shea book and the instruction in it is fairly clear.  Given your parameters, it would have been lovely to follow along the lines of an AP Lang class for 9th and 10th grade.  This means if you have an hour a day, it's a short lesson with new material to master and then working on the actual writing. As Eight said, write across the disciplines.  You can access a slew of prompts on the U.S. AP site. I am cruel, but I think it really has helped my son's writing to have to churn out 1-2 essays a week. Essays in the last week have included analyzing a poem, discussing the exchange rate and then applications of gene therapy.

 

You want your son to master essay basics while polishing his own voice. He needs to be able to write the essays quickly and cleanly. While you are working on the essays, just keep talking about the literature that he's reading. DS read How to Read Literature Like a Professor over the summer for AP English Lit. If you don't have a set plan for literature, you could tie in a work to each chapter and discuss it that way. What I really like about the book is that it is a quick way to teach students about the patterns they will see in literature.

 

You can add the Perrine's book the last year before the test to hone in on the specifics of  literary analysis.  Then, turn your more mature young man loose on those essays.

 

I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around having to memorize quotes. The idea of having a Shakespeare play at the ready is a good one, because many kids are already familiar with some of the best quotes and his plays run the gamut of the best themes.

 

I'd keep my plan simple and work on doing the few necessary things really, really well.

 

Good luck!

[swimmermom3]

This.  My son can read well and has read incredibly widely, deep hard books.  And he *loves* to discuss.  But the translation of this to writing is just not there.  What I am trying to say is that I think he will need to write this style of essay over and over and over to be able to do it under time pressure.  And given that he has very limited time to put to all humanities, I think we need to focus on this one type of essay at the detriment to his learning to write in other ways. 

 

I feel like a lot of you are saying that it will not take long, but I just don't see that. 

 

Wait, I just saw this.

 

Are you saying that you can only focus on literary essays to the detriment of writing essays on gene therapy or are you saying that you can only focus on writing essays to the detriment of doing some creative writing?

 

[eternalsummer]

I scored (as a job) the ACT writing (I read easily a thousand or more essays), and I got 4/5ths of a degree in teaching secondary school English in New Zealand (at the University of Canterbury's School of Education) - we moved back to the states as I hated teaching and missed family here.

 

Part of that degree involved practicing scoring essays like this (time pressure ones) submitted for the test(s) your DS would take for year 11 or year 12.

 

I wonder if you have read any samples of tests that have received scores, so you know approximately what level of writing and analysis to aim for?  

 

I can tell you now that these writing samples, had they been written under time pressure (and probably they weren't, which is something to practice, I know), would have gotten good marks on the ACT writing from me as a scorer, and as far as I can tell would have passed the NZ exams (although I saw a lot less of those so my advice there is not as clear).

 

I don't know that he couldn't pass those tests now (unless you feel that his writing during time constraints is significantly significantly worse), and I really wouldn't worry about getting there easily years from now, even without a concerted effort.

[swimmermom3]

You have made this insightful comment before, and I really think you are spot on.  I'm trying to keep his doors open, but maybe I should just close some.  As Laura has commented, it is extremely difficult to make a student competitive in  more than one country.   However, there are some full scholarships for international universities if he does well on the IMO -- I'm thinking Canada and China.  But he is just too young to know what he wants to do.  My guess is that he may end up at a top university in Australia, because NZ is pretty small for math.  But I am not pushing in any way. 

 

I just feel that learning to write his ebola essay in a more mature manner would be more valuable for *this* boy than focusing on lit analysis at speed.  But the exam is on lit analysis. That is the quandary.

 

Ruth!

 

It's not an either/or proposition.

 

To my way of thinking, it is far more difficult to write a literary analysis essay, if your essay skills aren't strong to begin with. Go ahead and teach the boy to write his ebola essay in a more mature manner. Get him to write really good persuasive essays really fast. I am not a mathematician, but there have to be some controversies in that field. Maybe he thinks a particular mathematician doesn't get the credit your son thinks he deserves. Have him write about it. Get him into the habit of forming an opinion, organizing the support for that opinion, and crafting a solid conclusion and doing it quickly. The repetitive practice comes from the writing and not so much the literary analysis.

 

Once he feels confident with his essays and can respond quickly and effectively in a timed essay, he'll find it much easier to see the arguments in literature and write about them. This way, you are not going to suck all the joy out of analyzing books. There's analysis that's like solving a logic problem and then there is flogging the work to death.

 

Writing 5 essays on ONE work is flogging it to death - especially in high school. Do not make the boy do this, please.

 

 

[lewelma]

Ruth, the good news is that your ds is going to mature like crazy over the next two years. If he can discuss literature in depth now, with a bit of training he will be able to write about it just fine by test time.

Thanks, Lisa. It's pretty hard to know what to expect the first time through.

  

 

 

I would build on what Eight has written here. I would spend my first year working on writing solid essays that contain a clear argument that is supported.

Interesting. So I think you are suggesting writing on non-lit topics (stuff he reads in the Economist), while continuing to discuss literature. Then, once he is fast and confident, switch to lit analysis.

 

 

This means if you have an hour a day, it's a short lesson with new material to master and then working on the actual writing..... I am cruel, but I think it really has helped my son's writing to have to churn out 1-2 essays a week.

I think there would be a revolt. He already writes between 2 and 4 full page single spaced proofs each week. But I hear you. More is better. He can write proofs at speed because last year he wrote and received feedback on about 120. So far I have laid out 12 papers for this year and I think it will be hard to get them all in. So he is just not practicing enough. But I don't see how he will have time for more, when each one takes 5 hours. Perhaps we need easier topics than IS, which took him 5 hours to read-up on and then 5 more hours to formulate and write an argument, for as you know that area of the world is very very complicated!

 

 

I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around having to memorize quotes.

Well, if you have to write a literary analysis with support quotes from the text and you have to do this in an exam situation, then you have to memorize useful quotes from your studied text. All the kids do it. They don't know what the questions will be, but can get a general idea (something on characterization, something on plot, etc) so they make sure to have quotes they can use. Odd, I know. How does the AP lit exam work?

[lewelma]

Just to give you a feel for his writing on his favorite subject. Here is a recent math proof. Once the problem is solved, he can write up the proof including the markup language for the equations in 45 minutes. In the BMO, he needed to be able to write this kind of argument in about 20 minutes. 

 

I'm thinking that there are some transferable skills here, I just need to find out what they are!

 

ETA: Ah, sigh, the Latex mark up language is coming across as images and won't let me post it.  So I'll just describe it as a full page logical argument with intro sentence and concluding sentence, references to rules and modes of thinking and diagrams,  subsets of arguments of pieces that must be assumed in the proof, organised into paragraph form based on the larger proof structure, and proper mechanics and style. There just has to be something transferable.  

[Laura Corin]

Don't start with me.  It's nuts.  They go into the exam with a number of studied works in their minds that they will be able to discuss.  They have to support their responses with quotes from the works, so they have to be memorized. 

 

That's the same in the UK.  You have to be able to back up your assertions with specific reference to the text.  I don't find it any odder than having to have particular physics or chemistry equations memorised in order fully to answer questions in those subjects.  

 

L

[Laura Corin]

This.  My son can read well and has read incredibly widely, deep hard books.  And he *loves* to discuss.  But the translation of this to writing is just not there.  What I am trying to say is that I think he will need to write this style of essay over and over and over to be able to do it under time pressure.  And given that he has very limited time to put to all humanities, I think we need to focus on this one type of essay at the detriment to his learning to write in other ways. 

 

I feel like a lot of you are saying that it will not take long, but I just don't see that. 

 

As this is exam specific, and you want to save time, I would use NZ materials specifically leading to that exam.  He has the appreciation - now he needs the specific skills.

 

Does he have any kind of background that would suggest poor motor skills leading to slow handwriting?  Calvin was in OT from a young age and was able to get use of a laptop to write exam essays.  This helped a lot with his speed of getting things down.  I don't know if this is relevant, but I thought I would mention it.

 

L

[lewelma]

Are you saying that you can only focus on literary essays to the detriment of writing essays on gene therapy or are you saying that you can only focus on writing essays to the detriment of doing some creative writing?

OMG NO creative writing over here.  eeeeek!

 

No I was saying lit analysis over anything like Shea would do. 

 

It's not an either/or proposition.

I just feel like it might be because of the lack of time. I laid out a beautiful plan over our summer with 2 terms on Shea type work and 2 terms on lit analysis, but then I had a really good hard look at the Exam he will take and I was like :huh: and a lot of :eek: It just seemed that if we focus all our efforts on lit analysis he would be really advanced in that type of writing, and I was thinking it might just carry over into other types of writing in a straight forward manner. If instead I do Shea type writing for a year and give ourselves only a year to get his lit analysis up to snuff, I might have a problem.  We have basically 2 years for the accelerated plan because of the grade skip and the wasted year of correspondence school.

 

It is also a confidence thing. I think if you focus on one thing and get really good at it, you might feel like you are a good writer and be more encouraged to push forward. But spreading yourself thinner might lead to lack of confidence and thus lack of interest.

 

There's analysis that's like solving a logic problem and then there is flogging the work to death.

 

Writing 5 essays on ONE work is flogging it to death - especially in high school. Do not make the boy do this, please.

I know I know. But I was told that the best way to prepare for the exam was to write all the different types of essays on each of your studied texts, because then when you walk into the exam you are confident that you can handle anything they throw at you. If we write only 1 essay on each text, we will have to study an awful lot of texts and he will have to memorize an awful lot of quotes!

 

Perhaps, this is just test prep at the very end (as in last 2 months of a 2 year study).

 

So throughout the year we

1) discuss 5 texts well and make sure that we can verbally explain all aspects of each text (plot, character, symbolism etc),

2) prep a thesis on each topic for practice.

3) Write ONE of these up.

4) And then right before the exam, write up the other 4, memorize the quotes, and be ready.

 

Then with the time saved by not writing up all of the essays, we can focus on the persuasive writing that I think would be so much more useful for him.

 

What I really really don't want is for this to be a test prep program for 2 years.  I think that *that* would destroy the love that he has right now.  I guess it is a tradeoff, more focused test prep will lead to better marks but would sacrifice the real learning. Perhaps, we just hope his math will get him in where ever he wants to go!

[lewelma]

As this is exam specific, and you want to save time, I would use NZ materials specifically leading to that exam.  He has the appreciation - now he needs the specific skills.

 

Does he have any kind of background that would suggest poor motor skills leading to slow handwriting?  Calvin was in OT from a young age and was able to get use of a laptop to write exam essays.  This helped a lot with his speed of getting things down.  I don't know if this is relevant, but I thought I would mention it.

 

L

 

He is not slow at writing, just slow at thinking up a thesis and how to actually support it.  But thanks for the thought.

[lewelma]

 

I can tell you now that these writing samples, had they been written under time pressure (and probably they weren't, which is something to practice, I know), would have gotten good marks on the ACT writing from me as a scorer, and as far as I can tell would have passed the NZ exams (although I saw a lot less of those so my advice there is not as clear).

 

 

thanks for this!  Given what people are saying, it sounds like I just need for this type of thinking/writing to become more automatic through practice, which would increase speed.

[Roadrunner]

Don't start with me. It's nuts. They go into the exam with a number of studied works in their minds that they will be able to discuss. They have to support their responses with quotes from the works, so they have to be memorized.

Oh wow. This is exactly how my admissions exams were like in the USSR. I can't tell you how many pages out of literature I had memorized to be able to quote for support. They took points off for each punctuation mistake. This isn't going to be helpful, but the standard study approach was to write several essays per each novel/literary work. These topics were somewhat predictable, so we would sit with our own essays (ton of them) and read and reread and reread before exam times. The idea was that the essay topic would be close enough to our practice essays so we could write a formulaic piece fast in those three hours. The memories make my hair stand up on my back.

[lewelma]

So given our time constraints, should I give into his desire to really study and dig deep into the ideas in The Brothers Karamazov? I mean, how can you say no to that?