Carolinagirl1 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 My daughters have been taking piano lessons for almost a year and a half. Their teacher uses Faber Piano Adventures, which I think is supposed to be a really good and very popular curriculum. I'm concerned because they are having trouble reading the notes on the staffs. Rather than look at the music and know the name of the note and where it is on the piano, they tap around to see what sounds right. Some they do know but most often they have to try different notes. I feel like they should probably be more fluent with note reading by now, but maybe not? Once they learn a piece they don't have a problem reading the music but if I put a simple piece they've never seen before in front of them, they have a really hard time reading it. I've brought this up with the teacher but she blows it off and says, "Oh, they do know the notes. Don't let them fool ya." She recommended buying flash cards for them so I did but she never opened the box so I ended up doing it at home by myself with them, which is frustrating because I feel like I'm paying the teacher to do it. I know piano and could probably teach them to play but they are very resistant to doing piano with me, especially after doing all of their academic subjects with me. Plus, their teacher is much more expert than I am. So, for those of you that know piano or have children who take lessons, does a year and a half of lessons sound unreasonable to expect them to be more fluent with notation on the staff lines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I would expect a bit more familiarity with note reading. I would expect the books to match their level of note reading. How old are your kids? and I am the one who does the music flashcards with my kids. Lesson time is for lessons and flash cards are practice and should be done every day as part of practice. I don't expect the teacher to be doing that. However, I would ask the teacher to pick out 10 cards or so to work on for that week. We used an app on my phone and the piano teacher set it up to quiz on the necessary notes. Do you sit in on lessons? Have you seen them play with their teacher? Do they play with more confidence with the teacher or to they hunt and peck in their lesson? and my kids' teacher uses Farber. Years ago we had another teacher who used a different set of books. I have been perfectly happy with Farber. What is important is if the teacher is comfortable and can make the books work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I think it depends. My older son's been doing Faber for about a year and a quarter now, and mostly he *can* read the notes (although he's stumbling again now that we're into sometimes having sharps, but that's a different issue.) However, he's also an early reader, and was reading fluently before he started, so I think he took to reading music quite easily--symbols on a page convey meaning, yup, mastered that concept. ;) I don't know how old your daughters are...but I have noticed that some of the children in my younger son's class are struggling more with it, and it may be because some of them aren't reading as easily. I do think that practice of flash cards with the notes would fall into "home practice", I don't think it's an efficient use of your money to have the teacher spending the time on that for you--YMMV. But I'd rather have the teacher introduce new concepts and correct form than do the grinding practice part with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherry in OH Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 My children’s piano lessons are 30 minutes, once a week. I would question the instructor if she used lesson time to review flash cards. That is something I would expect her to assign (or recommend) as homework on an as needed basis. How far have they progressed in the Piano Adventures series? That is more of an indicator of how well they should sight-read than the number of years of study. Is the instructor using just the lesson book or also the other books? If she isn’t using the theory book, you might want to go through those books at home. You might also try the I Can Read Music series http://www.amazon.com/Can-Read-Music-Beginning-Reading/dp/1616770481 for reinforcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Does this teacher use Faber's Theory books that corresponds to their Lesson book as a teaching tool? When my child was doing Faber, the teacher used several books - the Performance book, the pretemie-bigtime books, the Christmas books and most importantly the Theory Books for each level. Here is one such book for level 3A: http://www.amazon.com/Level-3A-Theory-Piano-Adventures/dp/1616770880 You can find a theory book for each level of PA. She assigned 2 pages of theory as homework for every class and used the first 5 minutes of the next class to correct the pages and go over any mistakes etc. I think that the practice gained by playing many different pieces as well as constant theory work helped my son. So, ask the teacher to add in a theory book to their lessons. And there are several free apps for note reading, you can get some of them to have your daughters practice for a few minutes a day. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 My younger two have been taking lessons using Bastien books - dd is on her 3rd year of lessons, and ds on his second (so he's been playing for a year and a half). They practice every day. We have never used flash cards. I think they should be able to read notes on a C scale after a year and a half. If my kids weren't, I'd be doing something different. You could try something like A Line A Day Sight Reading. It should probably take a couple of tries before they can easily read a line without someone playing for them first. My kids' piano teacher will not play a new piece for them - she requires them to read the notes. Ds will pick at notes when he is first figuring out a piece or transposing one from its original key into another one (which he does on his own for fun). I wouldn't expect him to read it perfectly the first time, but he does know the notes on the staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I would really expect older kids to be reading notes fluently after 18 months of lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 My older daughter is in level 2A. The younger one is in level 1. They do have the theory book and are assigned a page or two each week along with their lesson. When we are at lessons, I am sitting in the other room and I can hear them play but I don't stand over and watch them. I can hear them doing the pecking and trying to find the correct notes and then the teacher just shows them what the right note. I feel like she should be asking them to say the right note and play it for her without her showing them every time. As for her reading level - I don't think that is it with her. She was reading on a 4th grade level in Kindergarten and she is an excellent reader and loves to read now in 4th grade. She doesn't have any learning disabilities. She says the teacher shows her what to play and she copies it. Ok, so I should be doing the flash cards at home then. I'll try that. My parents never did that with me when I was young because they did not play the piano, so I figured that would be up to the instructor. I get what you all are saying about not wasting lesson time with flash cards, so I'll give it a try. We have an app that I downloaded too but haven't had much time to use it. Do you have any particular apps that you recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I should add that my younger boy is now 10 and he has been taking lessons since he was 5. He still gets stuck or makes mistakes when reading music, but that is because he is always learning new things. I don't think I would call him perfectly fluent, but he is working through all his books at his level, including theory, so I am guessing his music reading ability is where it should be for his level. When he was younger (like 8) his teacher would ask me to hold a book over his hands while he played to get him out of the habit of looking at his fingers while he played. I was NOT to stress him out, just do it for a short time during a lesson, like while he practiced one particular song 2 times. This was not a negative thing and if he got upset I was to stop. My son didn't love it, but it did break his habit of looking down. My older boy either never looked at his fingers or stopped on his own, because it never came up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I think a year & a half is plenty of time to be reading notes...but it depends on the ages of your girls, too. If they are strong readers, that makes a big difference. My kids just started official lessons (dh was teaching ds last year so he has a little jumpstart)...and they're already learning a lot. But... 1) They are both strong readers. 2) I sit in on the lessons, so I know exactly what the teacher wants them to accomplish during the week. 3) She has a folder for each child with practice assignments clearly laid out - flashcards, scales, pieces, no "flying fingers", etc.) 4) I practice with them 5 days/week. This takes anywhere from 20-30 min per child each day...so it's time consuming, but absolutely worth it. 5) As I practice with them, I am trying to teach them what they need to do...so they will eventually be able to practice the same way on their own. Not just playing the same song over & over again, but really working on accomplishing the individual goals their teacher gives them. The teacher doesn't work on flashcards with them herself. She mostly listens to their pieces & checks assignments to make sure they did what they were supposed to, she watches for improper posture/fingering/etc. habits that would hinder their playing as they progress, and she breaks down their next-week assignments into manageable steps for them to work on (with me) the following week. Sometimes I work ahead on things. It's an added bonus when you know how to play yourself - if there's something I would like them to know that she hasn't gotten to yet, I go ahead and teach it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 I would really expect older kids to be reading notes fluently after 18 months of lessons. I think so too. I'm really wondering if I should start looking for another instructor. It is sounding like most kids are a little more fluent at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 OK, by 4th grade I'd certainly expect more fluency. Is she letting them play by ear, it sounds like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Mine have been moving along at a lazy pace thus far, and at least one of them has not learned as many notes as she should have. But I am not pushing it either. I probably should now that they are both 8yo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 OK, by 4th grade I'd certainly expect more fluency. Is she letting them play by ear, it sounds like? Well, she expects them to read the music, but it's more like she is just showing them the correct note to play when they mess up rather than making sure that they recognize the name of the note and where it is when they look at the music. I guess I am a little more frustrated that I've brought it up to her and she doesn't seem to work on it more with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I have two kids in piano. When they get a new song, our teacher makes them sing it in the note names (so singing the tune, but as A B B D G ect) and then clap it for the rhythm, and then they play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I fault the teacher for not detecting the situation. Makes me question her capabilities as a music teacher. My daughter had a great struggle learning to read music. We persevered together -- she, her teacher, and I. Eventually, success! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Ok, so if they are in 2a, my younger son is going to be finishing 2b soon. I can say that when he was in 2a his teacher would occasionally just show him a note. Sometimes he would say "Stop poking around, can you tell me what that note is? Ok, now let's start back a couple measures and try that again." But sometimes he would just show him, mostly if my son was getting stressed by not playing the correct note. My son is a bit of a perfectionist and sometimes it was better for his teacher to just quietly point him in the right direction and move on quickly than stop to discuss it. The teacher might not be stressed about it because s/he feels like it is developmentally appropriate and it will come. I know so many kids who are taking piano lessons and we have so many great teachers in the area and they all seem a little bit different. One friend's kid has been learning 100% improv jazz. Her kid is kind of brilliant on the piano so something must be going well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 I have two kids in piano. When they get a new song, our teacher makes them sing it in the note names (so singing the tune, but as A B B D G ect) and then clap it for the rhythm, and then they play. That is brilliant. I'm so going to use that idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 The teacher might not be stressed about it because s/he feels like it is developmentally appropriate and it will come. Maybe that is true. I'm not making any changes till after the end of the year anyway, so I'll see how it goes before I decide whether or not to find another instructor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 They sound like strong aural learners. My kid started with a Suzuki teacher which really reinforces ear learning, especially in the early days and with younger kids. However, his teacher did an awesome job teaching note reading with him. So the trick for him was to have something new to read every day. You can get books that are just designed for note reading like this, and you can often go through them 2-3 times before you need to switch books. Spending just a few minutes doing this a day made a big difference for my pianist. He definitely reads at his level now. He's been playing for 9 years and plays advanced repertoire (or whatever he wants) now. I would start ridiculously simple and work your way up. Here are a couple series that have this kind of thing http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/a-line-a-day-sight-reading-level-1-sheet-music/312886 http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/four-star-sight-reading-and-ear-tests-book-1-sheet-music/4940473 I think it's a delicate thing. A strong ear is a wonderful thing. My kid actually has perfect pitch. But these kids that have them do need to learn to read too. I actually think it's not unusual for traditional teachers to not pick up on this kind of thing. I guess you know your situation best. If you otherwise like the teacher, I would talk to them about adding something like this into your practice routine. I think a good teacher would also be looking for ways to take advantage of a strong ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 They sound like strong aural learners. My kid started with a Suzuki teacher which really reinforces ear learning, especially in the early days and with younger kids. However, his teacher did an awesome job teaching note reading with him. So the trick for him was to have something new to read every day. You can get books that are just designed for note reading like this, and you can often go through them 2-3 times before you need to switch books. Spending just a few minutes doing this a day made a big difference for my pianist. He definitely reads at his level now. He's been playing for 9 years and plays advanced repertoire (or whatever he wants) now. I would start ridiculously simple and work your way up. Here are a couple series that have this kind of thing http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/a-line-a-day-sight-reading-level-1-sheet-music/312886 http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/four-star-sight-reading-and-ear-tests-book-1-sheet-music/4940473 I think it's a delicate thing. A strong ear is a wonderful thing. My kid actually has perfect pitch. But these kids that have them do need to learn to read too. I actually think it's not unusual for traditional teachers to not pick up on this kind of thing. I guess you know your situation best. If you otherwise like the teacher, I would talk to them about adding something like this into your practice routine. I think a good teacher would also be looking for ways to take advantage of a strong ear. That is so awesome that your son is such a great player! I can't wait till my girls are on an advanced level!! I know you must be so proud of him!! Thanks for the recommendation on the sight reading music. That is the second recommendation for the Line a Day so I will definitely consider it. I do have the sight reading book for Faber Piano Adventures on recommendation from the instructor but again, I don't think it has ever been cracked open so I will give that a shot too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caclcoca Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 My dd worked through the I Can Read Music series, and I think it helped her with note reading. Our current piano teacher uses Alfred's Premier Piano Course. They have a Notespeller book in their series. My ds9 is using that book. His teacher also does sight reading with him each week. I am going to look into The Line a Day books. I had not thought about sight reading at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicianmom Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) * Edited May 22, 2022 by musicianmom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 That is so awesome that your son is such a great player! I can't wait till my girls are on an advanced level!! I know you must be so proud of him!! Thanks for the recommendation on the sight reading music. That is the second recommendation for the Line a Day so I will definitely consider it. I do have the sight reading book for Faber Piano Adventures on recommendation from the instructor but again, I don't think it has ever been cracked open so I will give that a shot too. Oh, that is so sweet! Thank you - I am proud. It has been a long road! He started at 5 and is now 14! And not every practice has been sunshine and flowers either. :D He is also taking voice and guitar now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 Okay, I opened the I Can Read Music by Faber and started working in it this morning and I think we accomplished a good bit. I also placed an order for A Line A Day so we will give that a try as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I do not play piano myself, but I have found that I have to take an active role in my kids' lessons in order for them to be successful. For us, that means sitting in on the lesson so I know exactly what they're supposed to be doing and how it is supposed to sound. Our teacher is also very good about keeping a notebook and writing down what has been accomplished in each lesson and what should be worked on at home, theory pages that are assigned to be completed by the next lesson, etc. Once home, I have to prompt my oldest to practice daily- I set a timer for 20 minutes twice a day and he plays until it goes off. (I think that next week I'm going to move him up to two 25 minute sessions with the eventual goal of 1 hour of solid practice per day.) His practice and reviewing of notes (either with flashcards or an app on his iPod) is scheduled out and put on his checklist just like any other schoolwork. I also check his theory book and make sure he has completed everything his teacher assigned. For my youngest, I have to sit with her, help her count aloud, look at her theory pages together, and do a daily review of notes. She doesn't use flashcards yet- but we do take a few minutes before each practice to review her lines and spaces (she's only been taking lessons for a few months.) I've noticed that when I took a more passive role my oldest was kind of stagnant for quite a while, but now that I'm being more active in daily practice his skills are advancing much more quickly. As for apps, this is the one we like: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/music-tutor-free-sight-reading/id514363426?mt=8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne in ABQ Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 My older dd's teacher assigned pages in a Notespeller book every week. Subsequently, with my younger dc (who had different teachers because we had moved), I got the Notespeller books myself, and assigned a page a week. This is something they can do on their own, and it's is self checking because the note names will spell words if done correctly. This a lot easier for me than flashcards (which I find very frustrating). We use the Notespeller book from the Schwam piano series, but other piano courses have their own notespeller books. Faber doesn't have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara in AZ Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 You've gotten some good advice on this thread. I'm glad you're looking into the sightreading books and starting to do flashcards at home. I just want to chime in that I've been teaching with the Faber books for fifteen years, and during my master's degree taught in a pre college program closely supervised by the head of the pedagogy program. The underlying methodology of the Faber method is intervalic note reading. What this means is that from the very begining of study, students are taught the interval relationships between keys on the piano, ie. steps, skips (2nds and 3rds) building up to 4ths, 5ths, etc. When the staff is first introduced, they learn some basic guide notes first (Middle C, Bass, Cleff F, Treble G, Bass C, Treble G, etc.). The idea is that when reading a new piece of music, the student will recognize the relationship of the notes...are they moving up or down? Are they moving by steps or by skips? Knowing the actual name of the notes is important, but secondary to being able to see the relationship of the notes to each other. Does that make any sense? In your case, I wouldn't worry that much about being able to spout off the name of the note super fast, although I think at this point they should be getting pretty familiar with note names and able to identify them, especially your older daughter. The Faber theory books and any notespeller books you choose to use would help with simply naming them. (I always use the theory books that coordinate with our annual statewide evaluations program). But I'm more concerned about the fact that you say they are stumbling around and kind of guessing at the notes as they read new music. I would guess this is probably because they don't fully grasp the relationship of the notes on the page. I would expect the teacher to be setting them up for success the first time through a new piece by guiding them with questions... Where are the steps? Where are the skips? This piece starts on bass cleff F, is the next note up a skip or up a step? etc. So that even the very first time they try a new piece they are ready to tackle what's in it. I like to compare reading music to reading words. We first learn the alphabet letters and their sounds, but eventually we read full words without sounding out or stating each individual letter. Similarly, new pianists need to learn the names and identity of the notes, but like words, music is more than each individual note. The more the student can see the patterns in the music (steps, skips, 3rds, 5ths, chords, etc.) instead of slowly sounding out each individual note, the better. After 18 months of this kind of exposure, I would hope that the students would be more confident and doing less picking around....unless the teacher hasn't really been reinforcing the importance of the interval relationships. When I do flashcards with my students and my children I make sure they name the note AND play it on the keyboard. If they are stumped, we look for the closest guide note and talk about the relationship...here is Bass Cleff F, is this note a step up or a step down? I also eventually teach them the rhymes for the lines and spaces on each staff, but view that as kind of a crutch. (A useful crutch, though, after they're pretty good at seeing the interval relationships.) One last point about sightreading...I love to cover up my students hands as they are sightreading. I don't do this every time, but once in a while. This prevents them from looking at their hands, and forces them to keep their eyes on the music and actually look at what's written. Good luck! It's a tough place to be in when your gut tells you something is off. But hopefully you will find a good resolution to the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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