A year without God turns into atheism.........(article)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I had a random thought.  Would a year without chocolate for a chocolate lover end in not loving chocolate anymore? 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

actually once you start questioning, the thing that I could never get past is 'which god?' Why the biblical god? Why not some other god? Why should I look for evidence of this god versus the other gods? Maybe the other ones are real & are sad (or mad?) that they're being ignored now? I mean, it all seems just a likely to me (which is to say, not at all....)

 

I tried that.  Those gods didn't want to talk to me either.  I'm very unpopular apparently.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yep. As we look back and scoff at belief in Zeus, so perhaps future peoples will look back and scoff at us ? It seems reasonable to think so.

 

Personally I'm partial to Thor. 

[fraidycat]

Most people who believe this believe that the world was very pre-fall and pre-death. If we limit what would happen without death to our current understanding of the earth, then, yeah, it would be messy. But our understanding is limited to what we see and know now, not to what was going on then. To answer your question, I in no way believe that because I cannot fathom something that it means God cannot figure it out or deal with it. There are a lot of things I can't fathom but still happen anyway in this world. I don't try to reconcile all of them with my current level of knowledge.

 

Also, I do think the Bible addresses the fact that plant life was to be used as food pre-fall and I don't think the "death" of a plant is talked about as the same thing as killing a human or even another animal.

But I'm not "fathoming" my "current understanding" about the Earth, it's approximate age, inhabitants before us, life cycles, etc. I've learned it. Science. Physical evidence.

 

And there's really not much I can't fathom about our future, technological advancements, etc. I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to possibilities, even in my ignorance of how or why.

 

And I DO try to reconcile and expand my "current knowledge" if I need more. It just does not add up.

 

I can't just accept "because I said so". Never have. Ask my mom. :)

[fraidycat]

Yep. As we look back and scoff at belief in Zeus, so perhaps future peoples will look back and scoff at us ? It seems reasonable to think so.

Likely, actually. Unless of course, we obliterate ourselves first and there is no future people to look back at us. :)

[livetoread]

(Using your post as a jumping off point to answer some general themes in this thread)

 

I care because when I went looking for what kind of an immortal (which I think you meant instead of immoral) deity was involved, I found a holy perfect God.

No I meant immoral. I think that if a deity exists, there is more evidence that it is a real jerk then that it is perfectly good and loving. It's not something to start a religion on though - I doubt it would catch on :)

[Murphy101]

I had a random thought. Would a year without chocolate for a chocolate lover end in not loving chocolate anymore?

Idk. But after doing whole30 I seriously can't stomach most chocolates and don't crave them or crave them the same as before.

[fraidycat]

Maybe the cockroaches will evolve into a history loving species who can't believe we didn't all hail to the Great Flying Roach, back in the day.

This is really not outside the realm of imagination, either. Those suckers will survive everything!

 

Have you ever seen a really horrible B, possibly C class movie called "Joe's Apartment"? His cockroaches sing to him. :D

 

[Guest]

Yes, I gasp in horror at the terrible things, large and small, that happen. I haven't grieved over the death of my own child, but I have grieved with mothers and fathers who have. If they have actually gone through that and not determined that God is cruel, how can I as a bystander? Probably that sounds very pat and platitudinous, and some may think that I would lose my faith if something terrible happened to me or mine. I don't know. I do know I have a lot of knowledge in my head and heart that I hope I would draw on if I needed it. I have a lot of people around me who would show me and remind me of God's love when I needed it.

Nobody knows how they will respond if/when an unthinkable horror comes their way. I can't guess at how someone else would behave and I would not have imagined I would come to the place I now am. FWIW, I have not concluded that God is cruel; I am pretty much a Deist. I do not think God is cruel; I don't think He is involved.

 

As for your last point, I just wanted to mention that IME, most other Christians were not helpful when I was struggling through this. It is largely unsafe to ask the major questions, and, even where it is relatively safe, nobody was able to satisfy my questions. Even when I participate in these conversations on this board, I feel some fear that certain people IRL will see this and shun me.

[Guest]

I had a random thought. Would a year without chocolate for a chocolate lover end in not loving chocolate anymore?

Personally, I am a "Real" chocolate-lover, so it is clear to me that a year without chocolate would only prove to me how necessary Chocolate actually is.

 

I feel very sad for people who do not believe in chocolate. They are addled.

[TranquilMind]

Yup.  I used to pray a lot as a kid.  After awhile I just thought...I'm just talking to myself.  Nobody is listening to me.  There is nothing.  And you know, I was just a kid who would believe in unicorns if you told me they were real.  So if I can't feel anything at all even with that then is it no wonder?  I need more proof than that.  Even a tiny bit of proof.  So far there has been absolutely nothing. 

 

Probably the only thing I find intriguing is that so many people believe this stuff.  That does make me wonder why I don't.

Well, maybe you quit too soon.  We sort of need to persevere, at least some of the time, though obviously, we don't all have great perseverance at all times.  This is why we are to find strength in community too, as stated in Ecclesiastes 4:   

 

Two are better than one,

because they have a good return for their labor:

If either of them falls down,

one can help the other up.

But pity anyone who falls

and has no one to help them up.

Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.

But how can one keep warm alone?

Though one may be overpowered,

two can defend themselves.

A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

 

I had the opposite experience as a child.  I prayed a lot.  I knew without a doubt that God was there.  

 

 

I remember one period where I HAD to know some particular thing, and I was not going to give up until I understood.  I returned to God nightly and prayed at a certain time.  Then, I'd say, "Well, God, I can't keep my eyes open, but I'll be back tomorrow night, same time."

 

One night, God showed up. 

[Guest]

Bingo.

 

And anyone who shuns you is an idiot.

I like that twice. ;)

[Guest]

Idk. But after doing whole30 I seriously can't stomach most chocolates and don't crave them or crave them the same as before.

This is sacrilege. Whole30 has clouded your taste buds!

[fraidycat]

No. But I need to :)

I added a link for a quick preview. :) i'll add it again.

 

[albeto.]

It feels like being asked to believe in magic. 

 

I find it indistinguishable from believing in magic.

[TranquilMind]

But Jean - only asking you because there's a chance you might answer - on what basis did you find a holy perfect God ? I am genuinely curious and not trying to prove a point. One gigantic frustration i had during the times I struggled with faith was that no-one would answer my questions. So I still have questions.

I'm sorry you had no one to ask.  Those highly intelligent apologists are still out there, in different communities. I've known a few, here and there.  One was completely uneducated, but boy, did he know about the things of God.  They don't get angry, emotional,  or offended, no matter what the question, and there are many good questions; they would just answer your questions.   I hope you find someone to ask some day. 

[TranquilMind]

lol, atheists, you just weren't persevering enough!

Ok, make fun.  It's fine.

 

 

But you never know if one more day was the day that would make the difference, the day you would find your answer to a big prayer. 

 

I can honestly say that in over 50 years, I've never not had some answer (maybe not a full answer), but sometimes they take awhile.  I certainly don't always get an immediate answer (wish I could just send a text), but I do get answers over time, and I know I'm not alone in that. 

[Murphy101]

This is sacrilege. Whole30 has clouded your taste buds!

I know. Kinda ticks me off. My daughter is in the kitchen making cookies and it smells divine. But I don't have any desire to partake.

 

Alas my religion is not like that or I wouldn't need to hit the confessional nearly as often.

[fraidycat]

actually once you start questioning, the thing that I could never get past is 'which god?' Why the biblical god? Why not some other god? Why should I look for evidence of this god versus the other gods? Maybe the other ones are real & are sad (or mad?) that they're being ignored now? I mean, it all seems just a likely to me (which is to say, not at all....)

Yep, one of mine was - But why me/us? Why not people in China? Japan? Or far flung remote islands? Tribes in remote forests in South America? Outback Australia? Why don't they get to know God or Jesus or go to heaven just because of where they were born or what their parents taught. How about 500 years ago? 1,000? How incredibly arrogant to believe that we should be "better" and deserve heaven somehow, but they don't?

 

It was the beginning of the end for me. I started questioning everything after that.

[Guest]

Ok, make fun. It's fine.

 

 

But you never know if one more day was the day that would make the difference, the day you would find your answer to a big prayer.

 

I can honestly say that in over 50 years, I've never not had some answer (maybe not a full answer), but sometimes they take awhile. I certainly don't always get an immediate answer (wish I could just send a text), but I do get answers over time, and I know I'm not alone in that.

That not been my experience AT ALL. There are tons of unanswered prayers and things that make no sense in my life.

[Catwoman]

No. But I need to :)

You definitely need to see Joe's Apartment.

 

But be prepared for the theme song to get stuck in your head. :D

[albeto.]

And how would one distinguish an answered prayer from the natural effect of a particular cause?

[MommaOfalotta]

I'm still a "baby Christian" and wasn't able to read the whole article.. but being a BELIEVER, and a lover of Jesus and then deciding to just ignore him for a year? If you were, in fact, a true believer then why would you want to live like you weren't for a year? If someone asked me to stop reading my bible, stop praying, stop any and all communication with Jesus for an entire year.. I would know 110% that would lead to trouble with my faith. And then people are supposed to be surprised when he has lost faith. What else was supposed to happen?

 

If he had a good relationship with God and just decided to throw that away for a year, I mean, its kind of like spitting in His face, kwim?

 

If he did it because his faith was strugging.. well I think that was the worst thing he could have done. What was the desired result?

 

 

[Catwoman]

And how would one distinguish an answered prayer from the natural effect of a particular cause?

I don't think you can. I'm pretty sure that's where the faith part comes in.

 

There are some things you just can't prove, and it's perfectly understandable that people would be skeptical of that.

[Guest]

Yep, one of mine was - But why me/us? Why not people in China? Japan? Or far flung remote islands? Tribes in remote forests in South America? Outback Australia? Why don't they get to know God or Jesus or go to heaven just because of where they were born or what their parents taught. How about 500 years ago? 1,000? How incredibly arrogant to believe that we should be "better" and deserve heaven somehow, but they don't?

 

It was the beginning of the end for me. I started questioning everything after that.

This bothered me even late in my teens, before I went All In for Christianity. Then, it came back as a nagging problem when the other struggles arose.

[Guest]

I'm sorry you had no one to ask. Those highly intelligent apologists are still out there, in different communities. I've known a few, here and there. One was completely uneducated, but boy, did he know about the things of God. They don't get angry, emotional, or offended, no matter what the question, and there are many good questions; they would just answer your questions. I hope you find someone to ask some day.

I kept finding highly intelligent arguments against the prominent Christian apologists and, oddly, they would say precisely what I was thinking. Like this rebuttal of Lee Strobel's book: http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/critique-of-lee-strobels-the-case-for-faith.html

 

The church I attend actually has an on-going class that anyone can attend. It is meant to address those questions. I have not attended it, though, because I am pretty certain that I will either be the PITA heckler in the class, or I will just sit mutely by while everyone's questions are answered with the same "answers" I have heard for decades. So I don't attend. I don't want to out myself as the regular-churchgoing-apostate that I am.

[fraidycat]

What was the desired result?

Truth was the desired result, I'd imagine.

 

Without Drop Dead Fred wreaking havoc from the sidelines.

[Guest]

Well, maybe you quit too soon. We sort of need to persevere, at least some of the time, though obviously, we don't all have great perseverance at all times. This is why we are to find strength in community too, as stated in Ecclesiastes 4:

 

Two are better than one,

because they have a good return for their labor:

If either of them falls down,

one can help the other up.

But pity anyone who falls

and has no one to help them up.

Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.

But how can one keep warm alone?

Though one may be overpowered,

two can defend themselves.

A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

 

I had the opposite experience as a child. I prayed a lot. I knew without a doubt that God was there.

 

 

I remember one period where I HAD to know some particular thing, and I was not going to give up until I understood. I returned to God nightly and prayed at a certain time. Then, I'd say, "Well, God, I can't keep my eyes open, but I'll be back tomorrow night, same time."

 

One night, God showed up.

I find this idea a bit bizarre. I grew up being taught "God answers every prayer but sometimes the answer is no". But what naturally flows from that are Christians who say things like "God wanted/didn't want me to buy that specific car" or "We're praying about this XYZ trivial matter". It makes me assume the people who pray like that haven't really experienced much hardship. So, God helped you pick a car but God said no to saving the life of my sister's daughter?? I can't wrap my head around that.

[TranquilMind]

That not been my experience AT ALL. There are tons of unanswered prayers and things that make no sense in my life.

Well, I'm sorry about that. 

 

I need to know big things, like why did certain people die, and stuff like that.

 

I'm like that woman who pestered the judge until he granted her wish, just to make her go away.   I'm sure there are some here who would agree with that. :)  

 

Sometimes, inquiring minds just HAVE to know.  And it isn't over until it's over.  You don't know today, but you may well know before your last breath.  Then you will know for sure. 

 

 

2He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought.3And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think,5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’ â€

6And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says.7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?â€

[TranquilMind]

I find this idea a bit bizarre. I grew up being taught "God answers every prayer but sometimes the answer is no". But what naturally flows from that are Christians who say things like "God wanted/didn't want me to buy that specific car" or "We're praying about this XYZ trivial matter". It makes me assume the people who pray like that haven't really experienced much hardship. So, God helped you pick a car but God said no to saving the life of my sister's daughter?? I can't wrap my head around that.

Ok,  I have known those bizarre people too. 

 

I knew a woman that would literally say things like, "I woke up today and asked the Lord what I should wear.  The Lord said wear the Blue dress, not the red dress.  Then I asked the Lord what I should have for breakfast.  The Lord said no Cheerios but that I should have waffles.  Then the Lord told me to drive the Toyota and not the Honda. (and on and on)."  

 

No, He didn't.  That's just you, I wanted to say.   He expects you to be able to handle that! 

I'm not talking about stuff like that.

 

Maybe God told someone along the way to do something for that woman who died - or not do something.  And that person didn't listen. Maybe a doctor screwed up, big time, but all you hear is "the patient didn't tolerate the procedure" (they always blame the patient!).   Maybe God told someone to go somewhere or not go, and the person didn't listen.  You don't know what happened, really, in the scheme of things.  Maybe some horrible company is poisoning neighborhoods with toxic waste and people are getting sick and dying.  It has the power to stop and won't.  You just don't know and neither do I. 

 

It matters to me too. .   

[TranquilMind]

I kept finding highly intelligent arguments against the prominent Christian apologists and, oddly, they would say precisely what I was thinking. Like this rebuttal of Lee Strobel's book: http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/critique-of-lee-strobels-the-case-for-faith.html

 

The church I attend actually has an on-going class that anyone can attend. It is meant to address those questions. I have not attended it, though, because I am pretty certain that I will either be the PITA heckler in the class, or I will just sit mutely by while everyone's questions are answered with the same "answers" I have heard for decades. So I don't attend. I don't want to out myself as the regular-churchgoing-apostate that I am.

Oh, you should totally go!  You could shake that place up,  get the teacher on his toes, and bring some life to the class, if it indeed has fallen into complacency. 

 

No one said it should be easy for a teacher to "show himself a workman approved; rightly handling the Word of truth."  ;) 

[TranquilMind]

Yep, one of mine was - But why me/us? Why not people in China? Japan? Or far flung remote islands? Tribes in remote forests in South America? Outback Australia? Why don't they get to know God or Jesus or go to heaven just because of where they were born or what their parents taught. How about 500 years ago? 1,000? How incredibly arrogant to believe that we should be "better" and deserve heaven somehow, but they don't?

 

It was the beginning of the end for me. I started questioning everything after that.

Who says "they don't"!

Everyone does!  Whosoever will....

 

You are only responsible for seeking the truth from your beginning spot. Hebrews 11 explains all that.  He is  interested in those "seeking the promise," regardless where they may be found. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

lol, atheists, you just weren't persevering enough!

 

Well and hey I was just a kid.  I think a few years of doing that is pretty good for just a kid!!

[albeto.]

Ok, make fun.  It's fine.

 

 

But you never know if one more day was the day that would make the difference, the day you would find your answer to a big prayer. 

 

I can honestly say that in over 50 years, I've never not had some answer (maybe not a full answer), but sometimes they take awhile.  I certainly don't always get an immediate answer (wish I could just send a text), but I do get answers over time, and I know I'm not alone in that. 

 

It's a funny idea to promote - just believe, even when you don't believe, and the reason to believe will come to you, or not, but don't stop for the rest of your life because at least you will know after you're dead, or not.

 

To be fair and impartial, should Sadie try this tactic with each known god/goddess?

[marbel]

Yep, one of mine was - But why me/us? Why not people in China? Japan? Or far flung remote islands? Tribes in remote forests in South America? Outback Australia? Why don't they get to know God or Jesus or go to heaven just because of where they were born or what their parents taught. How about 500 years ago? 1,000? How incredibly arrogant to believe that we should be "better" and deserve heaven somehow, but they don't?

 

It was the beginning of the end for me. I started questioning everything after that.

 

And you know people on remote islands, or in China, or who lived long ago, or whose parents taught them something different cannot know God or Jesus, how exactly? 

[TranquilMind]

I'm still a "baby Christian" and wasn't able to read the whole article.. but being a BELIEVER, and a lover of Jesus and then deciding to just ignore him for a year? If you were, in fact, a true believer then why would you want to live like you weren't for a year? If someone asked me to stop reading my bible, stop praying, stop any and all communication with Jesus for an entire year.. I would know 110% that would lead to trouble with my faith. And then people are supposed to be surprised when he has lost faith. What else was supposed to happen?

 

If he had a good relationship with God and just decided to throw that away for a year, I mean, its kind of like spitting in His face, kwim?

 

If he did it because his faith was strugging.. well I think that was the worst thing he could have done. What was the desired result?

Seriously, how illogical is that? 

 

Hosea 4:6   My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

 

Jer 7:22-24   For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

 

Jer 23:1  “Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!†declares the LORD.

 

 

It's like asking you to ditch your wife for a year and become intimate with other women as the mood strikes you, and yet expect your marriage to remain wonderful when you return.  No, what will happen is that you will begin to negatively compare your wife to the others you had flings with, and find her wanting, because humans are perverse like that.   Your marriage would have been better off if you had only ever loved her and not played with fire.

[TranquilMind]

It's a funny idea to promote - just believe, even when you don't believe, and the reason to believe will come to you, or not, but don't stop for the rest of your life because at least you will know after you're dead, or not.

 

To be fair and impartial, should Sadie try this tactic with each known god/goddess?

Yes, it works exactly that way:  Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

There is only God (regardless what you call him and in one tongue - those who are seeking the promise are finding him from all kinds of places).  You used to know this.

[fraidycat]

And you know people on remote islands, or in China, or who lived long ago, or whose parents taught them something different cannot know God or Jesus, how exactly?

Because of all "the rules". One must believe...., say, do, then the gates of Heaven are opened to you.

 

Believe what? It's hard to believe something you have no awareness of.

 

What about the Muslims? Jews? Hindus? Buddhists? Etc. They were accidentally born to the wrong parents, so sucks to be them?

 

No thanks. Not buying it.

[TranquilMind]

Because of all "the rules". One must believe...., say, do, then the gates of Heaven are opened to you.

 

Believe what? It's hard to believe something you have no awareness of.

 

What about the Muslims? Jews? Hindus? Buddhists? Etc. They were accidentally born to the wrong parents, so sucks to be them?

 

No thanks. Not buying it.

Good thing, because that is not the way it is.

Hebrews 11 explains it.

 

Jesus Himself said that he had sheep who were not of this fold, and that men would come from east and west to be served at the table. 

 

No stone is left unturned. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

But Jean - only asking you because there's a chance you might answer - on what basis did you find a holy perfect God ? I am genuinely curious and not trying to prove a point. One gigantic frustration i had during the times I struggled with faith was that no-one would answer my questions. So I still have questions.

The easy answer is that I believe that the sum total of the Bible teaches a holy perfect God.  The harder answer is what went on in my own soul and mind after coming to that conclusion.  I looked at what the Bible said about God and asked myself if I could meet the standards listed there.  I think I have fairly good self esteem but my answer was still "no".  Then I asked myself if I was sinful - if I had thoughts and words and actions that didn't meet God's standards and my answer was yes.  Then I asked myself if I felt that was a problem.  If I accepted the Bible's word that it was a problem.  My answer was yes.  Then I asked myself if I could do anything to fix that problem on my own - if I could do enough good deeds or be "good enough" to fix that problem.  My answer was no.  Then I asked myself if I accepted the Bible's solution of what it outlined in Christ's sacrificial death for me on the cross.  My answer was yes.  I know it might seem a bit simplistic but that truly was my thought process over a number of months.  On occasion I've asked myself these questions again and I come to the same conclusion.  Of course the hard thing is that if you're not coming up with the same answers to the same internal questions there really isn't any way that I can show you how I did it.  

[*Lulu*]

I find this idea a bit bizarre. I grew up being taught "God answers every prayer but sometimes the answer is no". But what naturally flows from that are Christians who say things like "God wanted/didn't want me to buy that specific car" or "We're praying about this XYZ trivial matter". It makes me assume the people who pray like that haven't really experienced much hardship. So, God helped you pick a car but God said no to saving the life of my sister's daughter?? I can't wrap my head around that.

Exactly.

 

A God who intervenes in something trivial, like a good parking spot or a deal on a pair of shoes, but not when mothers cry out to him because their children go hungry, or children cry out to him because they live with abuse is either cruel or capricious and I want no part of it.

 

The very reason my faith survived my life experience is because I was able to let go of the vending machine God model that my evangelical upbringing had taught.

[Guest]

And you know people on remote islands, or in China, or who lived long ago, or whose parents taught them something different cannot know God or Jesus, how exactly?

In my late teens, this was what bothered me:

 

It is statistically highly likely that, if I were to embrace any belief system, it would be Christianity. I grew up saturated with it. I'm in a country in which Christianity is the dominant faith and Christian holidays (well, ostensibly Christian holidays...) are celebrated, albeit mostly secularly. christian and Biblical references dominate the culture.

 

But if I had grown up in Tibet or India or The Congo, it is statistically much less likely that I would be Christian (if I follow any faith system). Jesus is not the centerpiece of the dominant religions in those regions. Therefore, I was taught that they could not be saved; "...no man comes to the Father but by me." The only way I could reconcile this problem is to ignore it, to say, "Well, I don't know what that means for people who, through family, culture and location cannot know about Jesus, but I just have to accept that God will not screw it up because He knows their heart." But what kind of answer is this? It exemplifies the lack of empathy for "outsiders" that is unfortunately common in human expression. I just don't want to be one of those people.

[Anne in CA]

Doesn't that spark a bit of curiosity for you, though? I mean, you wouldn't have to convince me that water boils at a certain temperature because that's a fact. We see that claim verified time and again. No one has to accept it on faith, trusting a loved one to be right about it. All the knowledge we have about the natural world is discovered in the same way - faith isn't needed (even to explain unlikely experiences). So when I hear someone say this, that someone could never believe it but you know it, and I hear them say it in the context of a whole crowd of people making the same exact claim but all meaning different things, I wonder, do you hear the others? Does it make you curious why other people feel the exact same way about you but have concluded something totally incompatible with what you believe you know to be true? The only solutions to this I can think of is ignoring the other claims, or concluding there's a giant conspiracy to dupe people into believing the wrong claims. It just seems so... obvious to me that beliefs like these are completely personal and subjective and work only for the individual, and that's why others who don't share these beliefs can't be convinced. I'm sure that sounds rude, but it's not intended to sound rude. I hope you understand.

Well, I know you are not trying to be rude, and please understand that I am not trying to be rude either, but my experiences were as real in my life as the temperature that water boils at. There have been many things that happened, that could never have been the most wild coincidences. Even a few of those things being coincidences would never add up to the spiritual experiences that I have had. I had a dream when I was five that I still remember that only just now makes sense and I am not quite 45. Some of my experiences could be explained away, but explaining them all away would get silly, you would have to stretch more to explain them away than just to accept that there was a master plan behind them. And yet the master plan was always changing, because I have free will and everyone else I know has free will and all of us made choices. That is one of the things I could not FORCE someone to understand.

 

Make no mistake, my faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things no seen. The same way that things to small to be seen with a microscope can be proved to exist by scientific methods, I am certain that God exists without Him proving himself to everyone else. He proved himself to me, and that has to be enough. Do I buy hook line and sinker into most common theology? No. I am certain enough that God exists to tell other people he does at risk of being thought an idiot, and to invest money in an imperfect church and raise my children to be Christians. Believe me, I put my kids first, I am CERTAIN there is a God or I would never tie my children to the church with all its ugly flaws even though there are a lot of amazing things about the church too.

 

The place this gets really sticky is when people choose to take offence to this by being annoyed that I have had experiences that they have not had. There is no reasoning with anyone at this point, because emotions run too high on both sides. Anything I believe to be true, I believe, so I am emotional, other people can take my experiences to mean I think I am more enlightened or spiritual than they are, so they are going to be emotional. No one likes to talk to someone who is talking down to them. I am not going to get anywhere if I tell someone, "Yeah, when I was 12 I had that concern about God being real, but now I know better." Nothing would sound more rude than that, so really getting someone to listen to the rest of what I said would be impossible. 

 

I hope that made sense to someone in cyber space, and I hope it didn't offend anyone. 

[8circles]

Albeto, we saw the latest hobbit movie. Loved it.

 

I'm not quoting because I don't have the patience for it ATM. I'm sorry.

 

I can't stand the whole persevere thing. I admit that I'm not strong enough to persevere through many things. So sue me. I guess I'm weaker than many others. It feels like such a neener-neener thing. Either God will have compassion on me or he won't. I think he will. But I can't be scared into persevering and I doubt that's what God wants.

 

I don't believe in anything that looks like or has the aroma of magic. I call bumkus. God's not going to help you find your keys or help your team win or get you a parking space or sell your house or any other such nonsense. And let's not pretend these ideas only exist in evangelical christianity.

I actually do believe in the miracles in the Bible. But I don't think they looked like magic. (No, I can't explain it any more than that). But I don't believe in saying any particular words or lighting candles or somehow incanting God to do anything or to be pleased with us. I think that's nonsense.

[livetoread]

Well, I know you are not trying to be rude, and please understand that I am not trying to be rude either, but my experiences were as real in my life as the temperature that water boils at. There have been many things that happened, that could never have been the most wild coincidences. Even a few of those things being coincidences would never add up to the spiritual experiences that I have had. I had a dream when I was five that I still remember that only just now makes sense and I am not quite 45. Some of my experiences could be explained away, but explaining them all away would get silly, you would have to stretch more to explain them away than just to accept that there was a master plan behind them. And yet the master plan was always changing, because I have free will and everyone else I know has free will and all of us made choices. That is one of the things I could not FORCE someone to understand.

 

Make no mistake, my faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things no seen. The same way that things to small to be seen with a microscope can be proved to exist by scientific methods, I am certain that God exists without Him proving himself to everyone else. He proved himself to me, and that has to be enough. Do I buy hook line and sinker into most common theology? No. I am certain enough that God exists to tell other people he does at risk of being thought an idiot, and to invest money in an imperfect church and raise my children to be Christians. Believe me, I put my kids first, I am CERTAIN there is a God or I would never tie my children to the church with all its ugly flaws even though there are a lot of amazing things about the church too.

 

The place this gets really sticky is when people choose to take offence to this by being annoyed that I have had experiences that they have not had. There is no reasoning with anyone at this point, because emotions run too high on both sides. Anything I believe to be true, I believe, so I am emotional, other people can take my experiences to mean I think I am more enlightened or spiritual than they are, so they are going to be emotional. No one likes to talk to someone who is talking down to them. I am not going to get anywhere if I tell someone, "Yeah, when I was 12 I had that concern about God being real, but now I know better." Nothing would sound more rude than that, so really getting someone to listen to the rest of what I said would be impossible.

 

I hope that made sense to someone in cyber space, and I hope it didn't offend anyone.

I think it is possible that there is a deity who interacts with some people and ignores others. Like I said, I think it is more likely that if a deity exists and interacts with the world, it's immoral. I know that one who wants everyone to believe in it and will reach out and help anyone with belief if s/he just asks does not exist.

 

However, I find it more sensible to think there is no deity at all. A deity who plays favorites isn't worth my worship, whether I'm a favorite or not.

 

Edited to add that I don't find other people's stories about their experiences with their deity to be offensive at all. I can read what you say and think that there are other more likely explanations for your experiences, but I have no idea and don't presume to know. Maybe there is a God who interacts with you. Who knows? I do know that there isn't one who interacts with me.

 

Where the offense comes in is when the person telling me the story presumes that my story would be their story if only I did "x". My story messes up their story and so I have to be at fault somehow.

[Anne in CA]

I think it is possible that there is a deity who interacts with some people and ignores others. Like I said, I think it is more likely that if a deity exists and interacts with the world, it's immoral. I know that one who wants everyone to believe in it and will reach out and help anyone with belief if s/he just asks does not exist.

 

However, I find it more sensible to think there is no deity at all. A deity who plays favorites isn't worth my worship, whether I'm a favorite or not.

 

Edited to add that I don't find other people's stories about their experiences with their deity to be offensive at all. I can read what you say and think that there are other more likely explanations for your experiences, but I have no idea and don't presume to know. Maybe there is a God who interacts with you. Who knows? I do know that there isn't one who interacts with me.

 

Where the offense comes in is when the person telling me the story presumes that my story would be their story if only I did "x". My story messes up their story and so I have to be at fault somehow.

Absolutely, I understand where you are coming from. Your beliefs are a logical extension of your experiences, and  I do not for one minute believe that if you looked at things from my point of view we would have the same story. Even if you shared some beliefs with me, your experience would still be your own, and we would not be the same.

 

I have a good atheist friend who got annoyed with me once and said something like, "you are not doing a very good job of making a case why I should be a Christian. You should be trying harder to save me." I tried not to laugh, but I told him I like him the way he is, he is a person who searches for truth, so if Christianity is true, he will find it. I just am not worried about him, lol. There are real things I could worry about if I wanted to.

[Lady Florida.]

actually once you start questioning, the thing that I could never get past is 'which god?' Why the biblical god? Why not some other god? Why should I look for evidence of this god versus the other gods? Maybe the other ones are real & are sad (or mad?) that they're being ignored now? I mean, it all seems just a likely to me (which is to say, not at all....)

 

One of the things I kept seeing when I was questioning was about this very thing. In terms of religious teaching, they can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. It made more sense that all gods and all religions were man made than to think one was special and real while the others (which those followers thought was special and real) were all wrong. 

 

Believers in a particular god have decided all gods and religious teachings are wrong, except for theirs. Atheists don't make that one last exception. 

[albeto.]

Well, I know you are not trying to be rude, and please understand that I am not trying to be rude either, but my experiences were as real in my life as the temperature that water boils at. There have been many things that happened, that could never have been the most wild coincidences. Even a few of those things being coincidences would never add up to the spiritual experiences that I have had. I had a dream when I was five that I still remember that only just now makes sense and I am not quite 45. Some of my experiences could be explained away, but explaining them all away would get silly, you would have to stretch more to explain them away than just to accept that there was a master plan behind them. And yet the master plan was always changing, because I have free will and everyone else I know has free will and all of us made choices. That is one of the things I could not FORCE someone to understand.

I understand your experiences are personal in nature. I'm not so sure I follow the idea of "forcing" someone to understand. Understanding doesn't come from force, but from comprehension. But for you, the coincidences seem too well managed to be mere coincidences, is that right?

 

Make no mistake, my faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things no seen.

I have to admit, now that I no longer believe these claims, this sentiment sounds to me like you're saying, "Make no mistake, faith is HOPING something is true, but I KNOW the evidence won't support my hope."

 

Gah, that sounds so nasty! TM said the same thing upthread and it's been rattling around in my brain since. I recall that definition of "faith," I know it's biblical, but now that I'm on the other side, it sounds like the individual is saying, "I know it's all smoke and mirrors, but I'm pretending there's really a magician who is really doing magic, and by that reasoning it's really magic."

 

I don't know where I'm going with this. Just posting thoughts, I guess.

 

The same way that things to small to be seen with a microscope can be proved to exist by scientific methods, I am certain that God exists without Him proving himself to everyone else.

But that's not "the same way," that's quite the opposite. One can be proven, the other cannot and so is believed to be true anyway.

 

He proved himself to me, and that has to be enough. Do I buy hook line and sinker into most common theology? No. I am certain enough that God exists to tell other people he does at risk of being thought an idiot, and to invest money in an imperfect church and raise my children to be Christians. Believe me, I put my kids first, I am CERTAIN there is a God or I would never tie my children to the church with all its ugly flaws even though there are a lot of amazing things about the church too.

Your kids believe you because they believe their mom. What do you think would happen if you never brought them to church, never spoke about your faith, never showed any indication that you believe in a god, never pointed out fortunate coincidences?

 

The place this gets really sticky is when people choose to take offence to this by being annoyed that I have had experiences that they have not had. There is no reasoning with anyone at this point, because emotions run too high on both sides. Anything I believe to be true, I believe, so I am emotional, other people can take my experiences to mean I think I am more enlightened or spiritual than they are, so they are going to be emotional. No one likes to talk to someone who is talking down to them. I am not going to get anywhere if I tell someone, "Yeah, when I was 12 I had that concern about God being real, but now I know better." Nothing would sound more rude than that, so really getting someone to listen to the rest of what I said would be impossible.

I recall a conversation between two of my sisters. One had completed the Alpha Course about the same time I had my big conversion to Catholicism. We were both pretty stoked by it all. My other sister was going through a rough time and wanted that same assurance we had. My Alpha Course sister was in the position you're talking about, in a position of attributing so many experiences to the hand of God, and the other one really was jealous. That's a good word for it. She was visibly frustrated that the AC sister couldn't explain her faith in such a way that it would work for her directly. I think that was the first time I saw something like that. And I felt helpless as well, because like you say, how do you "force" someone to believe? You can teach them, but either they comprehend or they don't. You just can't force understanding.

 

So, now that I'm thinking back to the OP of this thread, the pastor who tried this experiment, I'm thinking it was really quite brave of him. By that I mean that most people I hear (or whose stories I hear) lose their faith in one of two ways. They either grow out of it as they grow out of childhood, applying logic and reason to the mythology of the bible in the same way they apply logic and reason to the story of Santa. They may spend some time "believing" in God like you "believe" in Santa - an allegory for family, joy, togetherness, tradition, celebrating life, etc. But eventually that analogy falls flat, they forget to apply it in their minds and they just... move on. The other seems to be the adult who struggles to hang on to it. The one who doesn't want to lose their faith, the one who does cry out to the god of their faith, the one who pours through the bible (or quran or torah) to catch any glimmer of help, any inference of what they could be doing to secure what they once had, what the desperately don't want to lose. And so they apply as many logical and faith-based tactics to this problem as they can. I think these people struggle in such a way that a believer who has never seriously flirted with atheism can't understand because the believer lacks that experience. The analogy to Santa looses its value as there is a kind of reward at the end of belief of Santa - you're an "adult" now, and a "keeper of the secret for children." There's really nothing like that when losing faith. You lose your perspective, you lose your assurance, you may lose your friends and/or family. You may even think you're losing your mind. That's a pretty frightening place to be.

 

But this pastor embraced that rather than stringing it out at a pace in which he was in control. He grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns. Rather than listening to the admonishment to not put the lord thy god to the test, he embraced the other assurances in the bible that state that god loves him, and won't let the devil snatch him away. I think that takes no small bit of courage, and to do it publicly, without fading into the background and simply "forgetting" that next blog post. Yeah, that's courageous behavior in my eyes. He embraced this frightening prospect, exposed it to the public, and allowed himself to be God's Guinea Pig, if you will.

 

The expressions upthread about not leaving God in the same way you wouldn't leave a husband are misplaced, I think. The whole point of ritualizing behavior is to create and solidify a habit. If you break the habit though, it doesn't negate the existence of an objective thing. Your microscope analogy fails for me because even if I don't have access to a microscope and so can't see what you see, I can see others who report consistent reports, and that's what's missing in faith - consistency. I asked you if it ever made you curious why other people who feel the same exact way about you come to completely different conclusions, and your answer reflected the first assumption I made - these discrepancies are ignored in lieu of focusing on those experiences that confirm the preferred theory. That's not how it works when using a microscope.

 

I think this pastor's public experience of exposing this discrepancy isn't a testament to his lack of faith, but an exposure to the lack of compelling reason to continue rituals that serve... who? Not him. He clearly doesn't need them any more (and is finding he never did). So that exposes another aspect of the faith that's a compelling reason to continue in belief. There's a fear of leaving it. A fear of being abandoned by God, but more importantly maybe, a fear of watching as the construct of the world as you've always known it crumbles. If God were real and salvation were a real think, it would be a terribly frightening prospect to walk away from it. If God were real and his presence were a comfort, it would be terribly sad to walk away from it. The pastor shows that he's not sad at all, he's not frightened, or crumbled, or broken. So who needs who? Does a person need God, or does "God" need the person to believe so that the whole experience isn't exposed as smoke and mirrors? Why admonish people from putting God to the test? Why encourage ritualistic behavior? Scientists don't gather every Friday and sing songs and repeat journal excerpts in hopes of strengthening their faith in research, kwim? They don't have to because their claims can be analyzed, verified, truth is consistent. I think what this pastor did is bigger than just walking away - he exposed the relative ease with which one can walk away, and the response of those who are angry at him for it. That's interesting, don't you think? Why people would be so angry at him?

 

I hope that made sense to someone in cyber space, and I hope it didn't offend anyone.

FWIW, I don't think there was anything offensive. Thank you for sharing.

[Joanne]

In my late teens, this was what bothered me:

 

It is statistically highly likely that, if I were to embrace any belief system, it would be Christianity. I grew up saturated with it. I'm in a country in which Christianity is the dominant faith and Christian holidays (well, ostensibly Christian holidays...) are celebrated, albeit mostly secularly. christian and Biblical references dominate the culture.

 

But if I had grown up in Tibet or India or The Congo, it is statistically much less likely that I would be Christian (if I follow any faith system). Jesus is not the centerpiece of the dominant religions in those regions. Therefore, I was taught that they could not be saved; "...no man comes to the Father but by me." The only way I could reconcile this problem is to ignore it, to say, "Well, I don't know what that means for people who, through family, culture and location cannot know about Jesus, but I just have to accept that God will not screw it up because He knows their heart." But what kind of answer is this? It exemplifies the lack of empathy for "outsiders" that is unfortunately common in human expression. I just don't want to be one of those people.

 

I've spent a lot of time thinking about my deconversion. I believe it was accelerated at a Christian conference. I attended a conference session on pluralism. I asked if God answers the prayers of people, regardless of their faith. The basis/premise of my query was that I had (at that time) spent more than 10 years in the rooms of AA, watching what I thought was God work in the lives of hundreds - no matter WHAT those people called him or how they understood him.

 

The Lecturer, after some stammering and pausing, said "No." This, at a conference for a known-to-be-liberal minded Christian denomination.

 

Another nail in the coffin of my Christianity.

[Guest]

Albeto, you nailed it. I agree with everything you said.

 

For myself, the most threatening part of leaving one's faith tradition is social fallout. I'm not a boat-rocker to begin with and discord is agony to me. I knew, for example, that if the parents of some of my childrens' friends got word of my "back-sliding," they would dump my KIDS. In fact, I have reason to believe this did happen with one friend; perhaps the mom lurked here or elsewhere and saw my struggles. Her family put distance between my family and theirs so, who really knows why?

 

I will also say I have shed many tears when I was coming to terms with the probability that there was no "friend who sticks closer than a brother" who cared about my sorrows and hurts. Don't we all want a friend like that? I experienced it as a loss, even if was only the loss of an illusion, a wishful thought.