Book a Week in 2014 - BW46

[shukriyya]

Happy Birthday, Onceuponatime! Many good wishes for the year ahead.

 

[Mom-ninja.]

I don't know when they're running the course again, but this is his book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/What-Plant-Knows-Field-Senses/dp/0374533881/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415823657&sr=8-1&keywords=plant+senses

My eldest is reading the book and watching the lectures. I think you can still join the class on Coursera. 

[Pam in CT]

Happy birthday, OnceUponATime!

 

Literary flea connection--William Blake's drawing, "The Ghost of a Flea": http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_of_a_Flea#/image/File:William_Blake_002.jpg

 

As I learned from my 2013 read of Gilchrist's Life of William Blake, Blake--who tended to see things the rest of us don't see--said this was what the spiritual being of a flea looked like. What that contributes to the discussion of sentience, I don't know.

And now this recalls to mind the Best New Thing on Off (OK, maybe still "Off Off") Broadway:

 

Bedbugs: The Musical

 

Because we're just that cool in such matters, we actually saw its World Premiere immediately after the New York Time raves came out, back when it was still in a church basement on the West Side in a theater smaller than my 11 yo's middle school auditorium.  Now it's moved to an official theater with cushioned seats and everything.  The music is -- I do realize, this is a leap of faith -- AWESOME and the bedbug costumes are, er, quite reminiscent of Blake's vision.

[Kareni]

 

Royal Society Winton Prize for Science

 

 

I see that the winning work was Stuff Matters: Exploring the Marvelous Materials That Shape Our Man-Made World by Mark Miodownik which I mentioned back in July.  I didn't read it, but my husband had fun reading snippets as time permitted.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

[aggieamy]

I gotta say gals that bugs might not be my favorite topic of discussion but at least it's not snakes!

 

My ladies book club met last night to discuss The Ivy Tree and everyone loved it except for one person who gave it three stars.  Three of us adored it and one other gal really enjoyed it even though it's not her genre at all.  Yay! 

[Kareni]

Today I read A London Season by Joan Wolf which I enjoyed.

 

"Free rein to love …

Young Lady Jane Fitzmaurice had everything that Regency society approved of – flawless beauty, perfect breeding, and a respectable fortune.

But she also had a mind and heart of her own that set heads shaking and tongues wagging.

Whoever heard of a well-born Miss spending more time in the saddle than in the drawing room? How could she prefer the company of David Chance, her handsome horse-trainer, to that of Julian Wrexham, the most attractive nobleman in England?"

 

This was published in 1980 and once again the cover art of the copy I read differs markedly from the one linked above.  You can see it here; it's very of its time.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Robin M]

Happy happy birthday Onceuponatime!

Hope you had an absolutely awesome day!

 

ðŸ·

 

🎉ðŸŽðŸ’

[Onceuponatime]

I see that the winning work was Stuff Matters: Exploring the Marvelous Materials That Shape Our Man-Made World by Mark Miodownik which I mentioned back in July.  I didn't read it, but my husband had fun reading snippets as time permitted.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

That's great! I read Stuff Matters in September (?). I'm thinking of assigning it to my 15yo this year.

 

 

Thanks for all the Birthday wishes! I can't believe there are 165 new posts since I last popped in!  I haven't been reading consistently lately and am still working on The 50 Greatest Mysteries of All Time. I'm up to 1906.

[Nan in Mass]

 

 

aggieamy, on 11 Nov 2014 - 5:14 PM, said:

 

 

As long as there is a murder I'll be happy.

 

It sounds like Kim won't fit any of my categories but it kinda jumped off that page at me to read so I'll give it a try. Would it be a suitable read aloud?

 

Looking back over the list it looks like EM Foster has a few on there. Does anyone recommend a particular book to start with or to avoid?

I was read Kim as a child. Very suitable, although I am sure my mother offered some explanation about outdated attitudes towards colonialism. The main character is a child.

 

Jane, gorgeous photo. If you had seen the seagull basking in the blow drier, you might have changed your mind about bird emotions. Oldest,s chickens exhibit a range of emotions. Speaking of which, I spent yesterday taking one to get stitches. You almost got a phone call while I was deciding whether this was the right thing to do. Very much related to the flea sentience discussion. Then I spent some time marking straws to be pipettes for tiny doses of fertilizer and being proud of one of my math tutoree who helped. She,s come so far. Then I spent three hours with dolciani, once again thinking of you lol.

 

Happy belated birthday, Onceuponatime! Best wishes for a happy, peaceful year!

 

Everyone, the whole flea discussion may seem out of place in a book discussion, but I just finished a book which deals with these issues of sentience, humanity, extermination, and the definition of life. For me, this is very much a book discussion lol.

 

Shukriyya, I love the cockroach story. I had a similar experience and I have been pretending I hadn,t ever since.

 

Pam, language? Do you mean language produced with a nimble tongue? If so, what about the deaf? And if you include sign language, haven,t you then stepped into the realm of gradations of complexity, since animals (including people) use sign language? This crosses species boundaries easily. My voice, body language, and smell communicate my feelings to my dog, for example, and vice versa. I do have some sort of dividing line at the ability to be compassionate, but I find it a pretty useless line because I,m not sure where it lies or what difference it makes. I have a line at living or not which is much more useful, although I wonder if the line is really where I pretend it is. I guess I am like your daughter let harm dictate my actions. Living with me is complicated. My husband is a saint. My parents would sympathize with you lol.

 

I do hope this discussion isn't,t as immediately applicable to my life today as it was yesterday.

 

Nan

[Stacia]

Britain's Most Dreaded Literary Prize...

 

:laugh:

 

 

[aggieamy]

Britain's Most Dreaded Literary Prize...

 

:laugh:

 

I had to do a double take at the Snow Queen book in the list because DD just read a book about that and for a second I thought it might have been by that author.  Whew.  NOT the same book.  

 

So ...

 

Has anyone here read any of those books and want to vote for the worst (best?)?

[Stacia]

I had to do a double take at the Snow Queen book in the list because DD just read a book about that and for a second I thought it might have been by that author.  Whew.  NOT the same book.  

 

So ...

 

Has anyone here read any of those books and want to vote for the worst (best?)?

 

I read the Colorless... Murakami book. I think he's been nominated in previous years too. So, I guess I have to vote for his since I haven't read any of the others. :lol:

 

ETA: Here are all the past winners: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_Review#Bad_Sex_in_Fiction_Award

(Note that in 2008, John Updike got the Lifetime Achievement Award. Lol.)

[mumto2]

Murakami, I've read it. ;)

[Violet Crown]

Well into Mary Shelley's The Last Man, and while there's no sign of a plague yet, there's a satisfyingly villainous character named Lord Byr--, I mean Lord Raymond, who is plotting to overthrow the idyllic royalty-free Republic that Britain now is, and set himself up as king. Also, hilarious descriptions of late 21st-century technology. The journey from London to Dunkeld:

 

---------------

 

"'To-morrow,' said Raymond, 'his mother and sister set out for Scotland to see him once again.'

 

'And I go to-day,' I cried; 'this very hour I will engage a sailing balloon; I shall be there in forty-eight hours at furthest, perhaps in less, if the wind is fair.'"

 

----------------

 

And a frame narrative of wonderful unlikeliness, wherein Mary and Percy Bysshe are tooling around in Naples and discover the actual Sibylline cavern, where they find the story written on leaves of paper lying around on the floor. I give it two Romantic thumbs up.

[LostSurprise]

I do think John Updike deserves the award. I'm sure there are others who are worse but not others as consistently celebrated. Ugh, Brazil. I haven't read any of the others, but in times past (last year or two years ago when JK Rowling was on the short list) there was an amusing article with examples of why each author was up for the award. Some of the quotes were pretty funny. 

 

 

I can't find Tam Lin so I'm reading Lost Girls: an unsolved American mystery. It was on the new shelf at the library but I think it was published in 2013. It's not about the true crime event as much as it's about the story of the girls lives, their families, and the decisions which led them to their fate. I love the stories of the various women. It's very objective and compassionate, but the closer we get to whatever crime happened the sadder I get. I feel a sense of loss that you wouldn't usually feel reading a headline like Craigslist Call-girls Murdered. No one is understood by a label. Events are really about people. Good journalism. 

When this is all over I think I'll need Tam Lin's sunniness. Better look harder. 

[Nan in Mass]

I had to do a double take at the Snow Queen book in the list because DD just read a book about that and for a second I thought it might have been by that author.  Whew.  NOT the same book.  

 

So ...

 

Has anyone here read any of those books and want to vote for the worst (best?)?

 

Well, if it is the version of the Snow Queen that I read in college, I agree it belongs on that list.  Yuck.  It wasn't a bad book until suddenly, with no warning, there was a weird, yucky, completely extraneous bit.  I haven't read it since (got rid of the book immediately so can't tell if this is the one) but it stuck in my head because it was so out of place.

 

Nan

 

ETA - Definately a different one.  Just had a look at when this was published.

[mumto2]

Our library is having a book folding contest. We aren't planning to enter but it made me think of my BaW friends. I had a flashback to an incredible book folded dress that I probably saw because someone here linked it pre cleanup. I have searched here and the general internet without success. I would love to show it to my librarian friends so am asking if someone knows how to find the fancy dress picture please give me a link. Please don't spend time hunting if you don't remember it, maybe I am dreaming but think I saw one somewhere. Where else could a book dress have been except a BaW thread????

 

Thank you!

[Stacia]

Our library is having a book folding contest. We aren't planning to enter but it made me think of my BaW friends. I had a flashback to an incredible book folded dress that I probably saw because someone here linked it pre cleanup. I have searched here and the general internet without success. I would love to show it to my librarian friends so am asking if someone knows how to find the fancy dress picture please give me a link. Please don't spend time hunting if you don't remember it, maybe I am dreaming but think I saw one somewhere. Where else could a book dress have been except a BaW thread????

 

Thank you!

 

I remember the dress you mean, mumto2. Maybe Kareni posted the original link???

 

Funny you should mention book folding. Just a couple of days ago, my dd was showing me that you can buy book folding patterns on etsy:

https://www.etsy.com/search?q=book%20fold%20pattern&order=most_relevant

[Stacia]

ETA - Definately a different one.  Just had a look at when this was published.

 

I think the list of awards is for books published in the last year (or per year), so it wouldn't cover really old books. I think the award has been around for a dozen years or so?

[Stacia]

19 Unbelievably Laughable Book Fails

 

:smilielol5:

[mumto2]

I remember the dress you mean, mumto2. Maybe Kareni posted the original link???

 

Funny you should mention book folding. Just a couple of days ago, my dd was showing me that you can buy book folding patterns on etsy:

https://www.etsy.com/search?q=book%20fold%20pattern&order=most_relevant

So glad someone else remembers it! :lol: Honestly, the fact that someone else remembers is probably enough so at least I won't dream of book dresses or something equally strange tonight. Love the patterns, the competitive me is so tempted to download one and figure out how enter but I know we have no time.

[Kareni]

 I had a flashback to an incredible book folded dress that I probably saw because someone here linked it pre cleanup. I have searched here and the general internet without success. I would love to show it to my librarian friends so am asking if someone knows how to find the fancy dress picture please give me a link.

 

Is this the dress?  I posted this back in March.

 

Golden Book Gown by Ryan Jude Novelline

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Onceuponatime]

Is this the dress? I posted this back in March.

 

Golden Book Gown by Ryan Jude Novelline

 

Regards,

Kareni

I remember this one. I still show people the pictures of that dress.

[Pam in CT]

Pam, language? Do you mean language produced with a nimble tongue? If so, what about the deaf? And if you include sign language, haven,t you then stepped into the realm of gradations of complexity, since animals (including people) use sign language? This crosses species boundaries easily. My voice, body language, and smell communicate my feelings to my dog, for example, and vice versa. I do have some sort of dividing line at the ability to be compassionate, but I find it a pretty useless line because I,m not sure where it lies or what difference it makes. I have a line at living or not which is much more useful, although I wonder if the line is really where I pretend it is. I guess I am like your daughter let harm dictate my actions. Living with me is complicated. My husband is a saint. My parents would sympathize with you lol.

 

 

Hmmm.  I've never tried to work through precisely what I mean, but... I don't only mean nimble-tongued language, but I do mean wide-ranging expressive language sufficient to convey abstract concepts and temporal shifts and gradations -- sign language and written language and perhaps mathematics (?) and increasingly computer language do make the mark, but the dance of the bees does not... the dance certainly is communication, but its scope is specific and sensory-bound.  I'm very interested in how language both shapes us cognitively and, conversely, can gate us as well.

 

My daughter and I both love elephants, a species which demonstrates a profound capacity for empathy and more capacity for communication than many.  She gave me this thought experiment: A whole herd will show distress when a fellow member is in pain, and will go to great efforts to help the member keep up, form a protective circle around a choice patch of delectable brush, etc.  The empathy they show is the same, whether the baby fell into a ditch and hurt its leg, or got caught in a human-set snare and hurt its leg.  They are responding to the (sensory) pain -- the "how" of the pain is immaterial.

 

But to most humans, there is a difference between bad luck in the natural world vs suffering knowingly inflicted by humans... and our ability to recognize and understand the difference is a chain mediated by language at every link.   In some ways, that language chain makes us more accountable.  At the same time, our facility with language also, imo, enables us to separate and remove ourself from the simple empathy of the elephants.  To insist, for example, that behavior is only "cruel" or "evil" if it's intentional is imo to quibble over the meaning of the words, while stepping away from the more basic and relevant issue of harm.  

[Rosie_0801]

Pam, language? Do you mean language produced with a nimble tongue? If so, what about the deaf? And if you include sign language, haven,t you then stepped into the realm of gradations of complexity, since animals (including people) use sign language? 

 

I'm not sure how far one can argue that non-human animals use signed languages. As far as I know, it's more keyword signing. Is my info out of date?

[Kareni]

I remember this one. I still show people the pictures of that dress.

 

It's truly a beautiful dress.  I'm in awe of the creativity that people can exhibit!

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Nan in Mass]

I'm not sure how far one can argue that non-human animals use signed languages. As far as I know, it's more keyword signing. Is my info out of date?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by key-word signing?

 

I was thinking more of body language-type signs than human deaf language-type signs, but in my anthropology class, ages ago, we were told that Koko, the gorilla who was taught an adaptation of ASL, was causing havoc with the definition of "human being".  She even was making jokes.  They tended to be potty jokes, but they were still jokes.  You had to add modifiers like "complex" to the definition to make it work.  That is what I meant by gradations.  This was ages ago and I'm sure research has advanced since then.  Most of the nay-sayers I have heard (not that I have studied this much) seem to rely on the exhibiting-this-behavior-because-it-wants-a-reward arguments that seemed to me to apply to humans as well.  Here is a site about Koko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZfGIKiSwwQ&index=1&list=UUdofq4hHbT3ZDzgYUqsDd1A

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Pam - I'm still thinking about your elephant example. My first thought, before I finished reading the post, was, "Why does it make a difference?" My second thought was that I would be more horrified over the intentional disaster. I'm not sure that it really makes any difference to me, though. I do think that homo sapiens have a more complex, more sophisticated form of communication in many ways than other animals, as far as we know. (I don't rule out not knowing but I'm not trying to use that as an argument for this particular point.) There are some ways that animals commuicate in a more complex way than people. Dogs and smell, for instance. But that isn't the sort of thing you are thinking of. You are thinking of discussions about factoring quadratic equations and speculations about the behavior of black holes. I still think this is a matter of amount, not a matter of two distinct classes of things, which means that you have to decide where to draw that "sentient" line. I dislike drawing dividing lines in an array of gradations. And I guess the question of whether animals are sentient isn't something that worries me very much in my daily life. I can't remember ever thinking they weren't and I have my own guideline about when it is ok to kill something and when it is not. The guideline doesn't have much to do with distinctions between a human, a dog, and a flea. I fail to follow my guideline as much as most people do, and feel guilty about it, and know that my emotional reaction may not be as consistent with my philosophical stance as I would like.

 

I think the question of "cruel" as something intentional gets fuzzy fast when you take into account laziness and carelessness. I agree that it is better to concentrate on the harm. It is interesting to think about the psychological problems that could be avoided if we were not damaged extra when we are damaged with intent.

 

I find language and the way it shapes our reality fascinating, too. I would have happily majored in linguistic anthropology.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Eliana - Yup, I think that is the one. Reading the description, I remember other things I disliked about the book. Blek.

 

Nan

[shukriyya]

Our library is having a book folding contest. We aren't planning to enter but it made me think of my BaW friends. I had a flashback to an incredible book folded dress that I probably saw because someone here linked it pre cleanup. I have searched here and the general internet without success. I would love to show it to my librarian friends so am asking if someone knows how to find the fancy dress picture please give me a link. Please don't spend time hunting if you don't remember it, maybe I am dreaming but think I saw one somewhere. Where else could a book dress have been except a BaW thread????

 

Thank you!

 

IIRC there were two dresses. One was done by a teen who painted a Van Gogh scene onto fabric and then made it into a dress. The other one was a dress made of old little Golden children's covers. But I have a feeling there is yet one more, the one mumto2 is referencing. Kareni will come through :D

 

ETA Oops, posted before reading the rest of the thread :huh:

[Stacia]

Mumto2, was it this one?

http://mashable.com/2013/07/26/book-dress/

[shukriyya]

In relation to the discussion on animals and language, communication between species and so forth, this video is quite an astonishment. It starts out a bit woo-woo but ended up leaving me feeling like I knew less than I thought I did, usually a fruitful state to encounter in oneself, no? Pam, I think your daughter might enjoy this.

 

And elephant-wise, have you looked at the David Sheldrake Wildlife Trust? We've sponsored elephants from here before on the advice of a friend who went and spent time there and gave it a thumbs-up. It's fun to get the updates each month and if you're an elephant lover even better. His wife has written a book about her lifetime experiences, too.

[Kareni]

We love the (vegan) soups in Lorna Sass's Complete Vegetarian Kitchen, the (very non-vegan, but still vegetarian, though not at all low fat) chowders in the Horn of the Moon and Beyond the Moon cookbooks (filled with other dairy-heavy delights -lots of cream and sour cream here,), and Deborah Madison's Vegetable Soups has some favorites as well.

 

Thanks for the cook book recommendations, Eliana.  My library has a couple which I've requested.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[mumto2]

Is this the dress?  I posted this back in March.

 

Golden Book Gown by Ryan Jude Novelline

 

Regards,

Kareni

  

Mumto2, was it this one?

http://mashable.com/2013/07/26/book-dress/

 

Thanks everyone. The Golden Book one in all it's beauty was the one but the other one is so very fun. Sending links to both to the library so I will have them for my refresher volunteer training tomorrow.

[aggieamy]

Has anyone read The House at Tyneford?  Is it a sad book? I keep stumbling over it and all the review say things like "Oh I just love it.  I was crying at the end."  I don't mind a good happy cry but I can't figure out if that is what is going on.  At this point in my life I can't do sad books.  

[shukriyya]

Has anyone read The House at Tyneford?  Is it a sad book? I keep stumbling over it and all the review say things like "Oh I just love it.  I was crying at the end."  I don't mind a good happy cry but I can't figure out if that is what is going on.  At this point in my life I can't do sad books.  

 

I read this last year and enjoyed it. I don't recall it being particularly sad.

[Mom-ninja.]

Has anyone read The House at Tyneford?  Is it a sad book? I keep stumbling over it and all the review say things like "Oh I just love it.  I was crying at the end."  I don't mind a good happy cry but I can't figure out if that is what is going on.  At this point in my life I can't do sad books.  

I cried. It was not a happy cry. It was a sad cry. It's a good book, but a book that follows real life as in don't expect a happy ending. 

[Pam in CT]

Pam - I'm still thinking about your elephant example. My first thought, before I finished reading the post, was, "Why does it make a difference?" My second thought was that I would be more horrified over the intentional disaster. I'm not sure that it really makes any difference to me, though. I do think that homo sapiens have a more complex, more sophisticated form of communication in many ways than other animals, as far as we know. (I don't rule out not knowing but I'm not trying to use that as an argument for this particular point.) There are some ways that animals commuicate in a more complex way than people. Dogs and smell, for instance. But that isn't the sort of thing you are thinking of. You are thinking of discussions about factoring quadratic equations and speculations about the behavior of black holes. I still think this is a matter of amount, not a matter of two distinct classes of things, which means that you have to decide where to draw that "sentient" line. I dislike drawing dividing lines in an array of gradations. And I guess the question of whether animals are sentient isn't something that worries me very much in my daily life. I can't remember ever thinking they weren't and I have my own guideline about when it is ok to kill something and when it is not. The guideline doesn't have much to do with distinctions between a human, a dog, and a flea. I fail to follow my guideline as much as most people do, and feel guilty about it, and know that my emotional reaction may not be as consistent with my philosophical stance as I would like.

 

I think the question of "cruel" as something intentional gets fuzzy fast when you take into account laziness and carelessness. I agree that it is better to concentrate on the harm. It is interesting to think about the psychological problems that could be avoided if we were not damaged extra when we are damaged with intent.

 

I find language and the way it shapes our reality fascinating, too. I would have happily majored in linguistic anthropology.

:lol: to the bolded... Actually, while those kinds of human cognitive achievements are all very nice (and don't get me wrong; I am very grateful to live in an era of modern medicine, forex), I am more interested in our apparent IN-ability to achieve solutions to moral problems that extend much past our immediate family or community circle -- to me, this inability suggests real cognitive limitations... which seem to me somehow -- again, the idea hovers just past my ability to quite name it -- linked to how we use language to create categories of Other, Personal Responsibility, Now v. Later, NIMBY, Not My Problem that lead us away from the empathy of the elephants.

 

I totally agree with your comment about the fuzziness generated by laziness and carelessness.  Stella has pressed me to add to those concepts, something like "willful not-looking" -- choosing not to look very carefully at where our food comes from, what the consequences of our consumer choices are, etc.  

 

 

Re: LOTR movie:

Uplifiting and strengthening... oh, yes.  Though I tend to read it in large snatches, as close to making it through the whole book in one gulp as possible... I've overread it, unfortunately, and have to ration my reread now, and try to do it more in bits and pieces to prolong the experience...

 

I haven't dared see the movies either (though my third daughter adores them).  Some books I enjoy in adaptations... I love Austen's books (I used to reread Pride and Prejudice multiple times a year), but I still have loved many of the film adaptations (with some vehement exceptions), even ones that mangle the book and/or characters.  Somehow they can coexist without threatening anything important.  ...but LOTR or, oh my, Middlemarch... those I can't risk.   I have no idea why...

I flatly refused to see the first two when they came out for precisely this reason.  Then one night when we were at my parents', they informed my husband and me that they were watching the kids, and they threw us out for a date ( :001_wub:  :001_wub: ).  We had a lovely dinner and arrived at the theater to see whatever we'd planned on... but it was sold out.  Return of the King was due to start in 15 minutes.  Come on, my husband urged.  I can't! I protested.  It'll ruin it!  He pointed out, rightly, that it could be six months before we had another chance to stay out as late as we wanted.  We stayed.  We watched.

 

At the end I stood up and applauded.   (My husband slunk down into the seats and pretended he didn't know me.)  Just sayin'.

 

 

 

In relation to the discussion on animals and language, communication between species and so forth, this video is quite an astonishment. It starts out a bit woo-woo but ended up leaving me feeling like I knew less than I thought I did, usually a fruitful state to encounter in oneself, no? Pam, I think your daughter might enjoy this.

 

And elephant-wise, have you looked at the David Sheldrake Wildlife Trust? We've sponsored elephants from here before on the advice of a friend who went and spent time there and gave it a thumbs-up. It's fun to get the updates each month and if you're an elephant lover even better. His wife has written a book about her lifetime experiences, too.

Wow.  I'll show her.

 

I'm not familiar with that one, but we've sponsored an elephant at another sanctuary -- it is very fun.  I just ordered the book -- thank you.

[LostSurprise]

ooh, I hope you find it soon!  Yes, it has a goodheartedness to it that always brightens my life when I am immersed in it.  Where were you in it?  (What point in the year/which year?)

 

 

 

 

I haven't loved any Forsters, but I have appreciated/enjoyed several of them, but I quit Passage to India partway through many, many years ago and haven't come back to it... though Eagleton's analysis of the opening paragraphs in How to Read Literature has me thinking about trying again.

 

 

 

Tam Lin: I'm still pretty early in (found it down by the shower last night..yikes). Janet went to Hamlet with Thomas, Molly, and one of of those other 'beautiful boys.' I'm enjoying the doppelgangering which seems to be happening with a few characters, the squeal-worthy book quoting, and the vivid portrayal of early college life. I must be a prude because the idea of someone sleeping with someone they've known a week and has mixed feelings about is a bit disappointing....even if it is circa 1970. My 18 year old self is telling her not to be stupid, but only because I wasn't stupid about that when I was 18. I was stupid about other things. We'll see where it goes. Magic is afoot and Janet is being pulled in, I think. 

 

Forster: I felt the same way about Passage. I started it a few times before finishing it (only because one of my students was reading it for an open project). I don't remember anything past the beginning. Maybe I should re-read it. I may be old enough for it now. It took me decades to like Moby Dick and I still prefer them never to leave the harbor. ;)

[Nan in Mass]

:lol: to the bolded... Actually, while those kinds of human cognitive achievements are all very nice (and don't get me wrong; I am very grateful to live in an era of modern medicine, forex), I am more interested in our apparent IN-ability to achieve solutions to moral problems that extend much past our immediate family or community circle -- to me, this inability suggests real cognitive limitations... which seem to me somehow -- again, the idea hovers just past my ability to quite name it -- linked to how we use language to create categories of Other, Personal Responsibility, Now v. Later, NIMBY, Not My Problem that lead us away from the empathy of the elephants.

 

I totally agree with your comment about the fuzziness generated by laziness and carelessness.  Stella has pressed me to add to those concepts, something like "willful not-looking" -- choosing not to look very carefully at where our food comes from, what the consequences of our consumer choices are, etc.  

 

 

 

I don't know much about elephants.  I am looking forward to watching that video when I have time.  Do elephants have packs?  Do elephants extend the same level of empathy to elephants not in the pack?  Somewhere, I ran across something that gave me the occasionally useful idea of some people being able to extend their empathy to anyone, some being able only to empathize with people in their own "pack", and other's being unable to empathize at all.  To people in that last catagory, other living things are not real.  (There has been some discussion in our family about whether one can switch categories after a certain (unknown) developmental window.  My religion says emphatically yes.  Practical experience says it might be yes, but it is terribly difficult to "fix" an adult, you will have to share your life with them to do it, and you will be torn between your children and pets and the person you are trying to fix in the meantime, so you are unlikely to have a long enough window to succeed.)  (See, Eliana - another issue covered by DiO)  Anyway, in my own life, most people I know are somewhere in the middle category.  I know people in the first.  Many of the Nipponzan Myohoji monks and nuns fall into this category.  I think I agree with you that it seems to be some sort of cognitive limitation.  I am not sure it has to do with language, though?  Packing animals seem to have empathy for their packs, drawing the inside/outside line at their pack, and many animals have empathy for their young, drawing the inside/outside line at family.  Those involve communication, but not a homosapien-type language.  I guess I think the lack of empathy for things outside one's pack is not so much language-based, but more a matter of education and culture, as much as I think those are shaped by language.  I hope  I think (or hope, anyway) that the pack-line is blurry and movable.  I especially hope that it can be moved outward to encompass a whole world of living things, not just other homosapiens.  In fact, I think a large part of our current problem is that we have a pack mentality towards other homosapiens and need to include other living things as well.  Otherwise there is very little hope for our world?  I think as we develop our ability to communicate with others outside our family and community, it is helping with the problem of not enough global empathy with other homosapiens, and I think as our science develops and as we are able to communicate what we find with each other, the problems of harming non-homosapien living things will be reduced.  I think as a population, we are getting better due to better and more far-reaching communication?  I know we have developed more far-reaching horrors, but often it takes an extreme to change something as ingrained as culture.  I think we will have to impose limitations on our technology eventually, and I think the only limitations that really stick are ingrained cultural ones of the same sort that are causing the problems with lack of global empathy lol, but in the meanwhile, I think technology, with its ability to let us learn about each other and the world, are helping us.  I'm probably not doing a very good job of demonstrating the advantages of language because I've never tried verbalizing all this before (I don't tend to think about this sort of things in words) and am not doing a great job (I'm supposed to be giving a pill to the poor chicken adn dealing with the sourdough and finding scissors for the 4yo, which doesn't help either), but (phew) the fact that we have enough language to be able to discuss this makes me doubt that language is the problem?  I can think "my own" and "other" without using words to do it.  Which bits of language do you think are causing the problems?  I would love to think that if we changed our language, it would help us all do less harm.  I know many times problems can be ameliorated by making up a name for something or by agreeing on a definition.

 

Willful not-looking is what I had in mind when I mentioned laziness.  Laziness is too mild a word.  Willful blindness?  My family tends to say someone has blinkers on when we mean this.  Sigh-I am hopelessly compromised.  I muddle through as best I can, I guess, but there is so much room for improvement.

 

I can see why you caved about that movie lol.  My mother, whose judgement I trust, said the movies were so close to what she'd pictured in her head that she thought it would be ok to watch them.  I am still resisting.  I think it has a lot to do with the condensing part, and the voices not being my mother's.  I'm quite sure I wouldn't mind the visual part, although if the mallorns didn't look like my own beeches, I would be sad.  And I'm not sure Gandalf would be right.  Some things are righter when not fully imagined, like the ents, I think?

 

Eliana - For some reason, I, too, have no trouble with the Austen movies.  I may not like them, but they don't cause problems with my own version.  Most I have not liked.  The Emma Thompson (think I got that right?) version of Sense and Sensibility I loved.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I gave up and didn't finish Passages, too, when I tried it ages ago.  No way am I reading Moby Dick lol.

 

Nan

[Pam in CT]

... Do elephants have packs?  Do elephants extend the same level of empathy to elephants not in the pack? 

 

>>>>>>>>

 

Somewhere, I ran across something that gave me the occasionally useful idea of some people being able to extend their empathy to anyone, some being able only to empathize with people in their own "pack", and other's being unable to empathize at all.  To people in that last catagory, other living things are not real.  (There has been some discussion in our family about whether one can switch categories after a certain (unknown) developmental window.  My religion says emphatically yes.  Practical experience says it might be yes, but it is terribly difficult to "fix" an adult.....<snip>  

 

Anyway, in my own life, most people I know are somewhere in the middle category.  I know people in the first.  Many of the Nipponzan Myohoji monks and nuns fall into this category.  I think I agree with you that it seems to be some sort of cognitive limitation.  I am not sure it has to do with language, though?  Packing animals seem to have empathy for their packs, drawing the inside/outside line at their pack, and many animals have empathy for their young, drawing the inside/outside line at family.  Those involve communication, but not a homosapien-type language. 

 

>>>>>>

 

I guess I think the lack of empathy for things outside one's pack is not so much language-based, but more a matter of education and culture, as much as I think those are shaped by language.  I hope  I think (or hope, anyway) that the pack-line is blurry and movable. 

 

>>>>>>>

 

I especially hope that it can be moved outward to encompass a whole world of living things, not just other homosapiens.  In fact, I think a large part of our current problem is that we have a pack mentality towards other homosapiens and need to include other living things as well.  Otherwise there is very little hope for our world?  I think as we develop our ability to communicate with others outside our family and community, it is helping with the problem of not enough global empathy with other homosapiens, and I think as our science develops and as we are able to communicate what we find with each other, the problems of harming non-homosapien living things will be reduced.  I think as a population, we are getting better due to better and more far-reaching communication?  I know we have developed more far-reaching horrors, but often it takes an extreme to change something as ingrained as culture.  I think we will have to impose limitations on our technology eventually, and I think the only limitations that really stick are ingrained cultural ones of the same sort that are causing the problems with lack of global empathy lol, but in the meanwhile, I think technology, with its ability to let us learn about each other and the world, are helping us.  I'm probably not doing a very good job of demonstrating the advantages of language because I've never tried verbalizing all this before (I don't tend to think about this sort of things in words) and am not doing a great job (I'm supposed to be giving a pill to the poor chicken adn dealing with the sourdough and finding scissors for the 4yo, which doesn't help either), but (phew) the fact that we have enough language to be able to discuss this makes me doubt that language is the problem?  I can think "my own" and "other" without using words to do it.  Which bits of language do you think are causing the problems?  I would love to think that if we changed our language, it would help us all do less harm.  I know many times problems can be ameliorated by making up a name for something or by agreeing on a definition.

 

Willful not-looking is what I had in mind when I mentioned laziness.  Laziness is too mild a word.  Willful blindness?  My family tends to say someone has blinkers on when we mean this. 

 

>>>>>>>

 

Sigh-I am hopelessly compromised.  I muddle through as best I can, I guess, but there is so much room for improvement.

 

:laugh:

 

Elephants do have herds -- women and children; the guys are (more or less politely) driven off when they reach adulthood; and their shared purpose is most evident within the herd.  They will show empathy extended beyond the herd, though -- a herd will easily adopt an unrelated abandoned baby and even an outside adult female (it's evidently fairly straightforward to re-habituate an adult female to the wild; she'll just be integrated into her place in the age-demarcated matriarchy and they'll teach her all she needs to know); and will even show signs of distress or anger/mourning if they encounter an "outsider" elephant or carcass, male or female, who's been snared or shot in the wild.

 

>>>>>>

 

The bolded is a very interesting idea... and the idea of moving the pack-line is intriguing... I'll have to dwell on it for a while...

 

>>>>>>

 

Honestly, although I do (sometimes reluctantly) agree with much of the cross-species ethical concerns that my daughter brings to my attention, I am far more concerned about the pack-lines within the human race, lol...  I mean, if as a species we continue to be unable to solve human-generated problems like global pollution, finite carbon energy sources and food distribution, it seems clear to me (?) that we don't have more than a century or two left on the planet.  Cognitive failure first class...

 

Not to be Cassandra of the Internet, lol.  I go back and forth re: your comment that technology helps us to reach out and understand each other across differences.  It has the potential to do that; also the potential to divide us into ever-smaller niche echo chambers.

 

>>>>>>

 

And I Vehemently Resist the idea that thinking about such things means we are Hopelessly Compromised.  Au contraire.  Rather it means we are Attempting to Engage.  Naturally that involves muddling!!  What on earth else would it mean?

[Nan in Mass]

LOL - I meant conflicted within myself, my actions and feelings not matching my morals.  I worry about the muddling part.  I think sometimes muddling does more harm than good.  I'm finding this a very interesting conversation, though, so I am willing to risk the muddling part.  I guess I seldom muddle with people to whom my words are not powerful, which makes it difficult.  I can muddle with my mother and my husband.  The rest of the people tend to be, just because of my place within my family, people with whom it is safer to think more carefully before I speak.  Real-time conversations with friends are far apart time-wise to be a continuity, and sentence upon sentence follows too fast for my slow-moving brain to keep up lol.

 

I always wonder whether the more intelligent animals have simply chosen not to be interested in black holes. : )

 

I see what you mean about the internet fracturing us.  I'll have to think about that.

 

And I think it will help us to fix our environmental problems to acknowledge that other species are really alive and able to suffer and that we are all vitally linked together.  But maybe I am being too optimistic about homosapiens.  Sigh.

 

Nan

[Kareni]

I read with pleasure another historical romance by Carla Kelly; this one is titled

Marrying the Captain.   Carla Kelly specializes in writing regency romances that deal with characters other than the ton.  So, if you'd like to read a regency without a Duke, try one of her books!

 

"Ever since her father tried to sell her as a mistress to the highest bidder, Eleanor Massie has chosen to live in poverty. Her world changes overnight when Captain Oliver Worthy shows up at her struggling inn. Despite herself, Nana is drawn to her handsome guest....

 

Oliver planned to stay in Plymouth only long enough to report back to Lord Ratliffe--about Nana. But he soon senses that Lord Ratliffe is up to something, and Oliver will do anything to keep this courageous, beautiful woman safe--even marry her!"

 

It's the third in a linked series of romances which I've apparently read backwards.  Each stands alone well.  The others are The Surgeon's Lady and  Marrying the Royal Marine.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

[ChrisB]

nm

[Jane in NC]

Thanking all of my BaW friends for such stimulating discussion!  My, I wish we were getting together IRL for a book club.  Or a slumber party. Yeah, that's it.

[shukriyya]

Today's kindle daily deal seems a propos given the discussion around fleas and cockroaches ;)

[Nan in Mass]

Today's kindle daily deal seems a propos given the discussion around fleas and cockroaches ;)

 

Lol - I went to see what it was and was sucked into reading via the peek-inside. : )

My father always made us drink our milk anyway when something flew in.  He would say, "Protien.  It's just extra protien."  I don't recommend live red ants.  Ooo they stung.  (They were hidden in my oreo.)

 

Nan

[shukriyya]

Lol - I went to see what it was and was sucked into reading via the peek-inside. : )

My father always made us drink our milk anyway when something flew in.  He would say, "Protien.  It's just extra protien."  I don't recommend live red ants.  Ooo they stung.  (They were hidden in my oreo.)

 

Nan

 

And yet for me the possibility arises that the non-stinging variety of ant mightn't be worse than the Oreo :lol:

[Stacia]

I don't recommend live red ants.  Ooo they stung.  (They were hidden in my oreo.)

 

Somehow that gives new meaning to "spicy food".

 

:lol:

 

:ack2: