Early College

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Interesting thread. I wanted to address a few subjects that have been raised.

 

First, there was the idea that no one will "hold it against" a 10 year old if they get a bad grade in a community college class.  While I certainly don't want anyone thinking that life is over and the sky is falling if their dual enrolled student gets a lower grade in a community college class, I think it is important to understand these grades are real college grades and they do count. They will need to be reported in college admissions. Graduate and professional school typical requires all college transcripts. While it may seem like everyone would be impressed a child was in college young and cut them slack for bad grades that isn't actually how it works. If anything scrutiny may be higher. I strongly suggest that homeschoolers have experience with "outside" teachers and grading before they start college classes. If you have the choice get your feet wet with online or non-college classes first.

 

As we discussed in the other thread it is certainly possible for early college students to very well out of schools that aren't at the top of the rankings. That's also true of students who attend mid tier colleges at the traditional age. It is important to understand though that expectations are actually higher for students who attend lower or mid tier schools. The mid tier state u GPA is not viewed the same way as the Ivy/highly selective school GPA. For students with the highest ambitions like admissions to top 20  graduate or professional programs, the expectations are extremely high. They really do need to pulling very strong grades in undergrad and in many fields there is an expectation of some grad work in undergrad too. That's not to say that admissions to a top 20 grad program should be every student's goal. Rather, if a potential goal you really don't want your student in college until they can earn top grades and are ready to take advantage of opportunities.

 

Finally in terms of law school admissions I'd keep in mind they are getting less competitive by the minute. Due to very poor employment prospects, applications are down 37% since 2010. I would not generalize too much from experiences with law school admissions to predict admissions in other graduate or professional fields which are much more competitive and depend very heavily on testing that is difficult to do well on without really strong undergraduate preparation. There are highly verbal people who can do well on the LSAT without a specific plan of undergraduate studies. Some of the top ACT/SAT scoring kids in high school could pull a good score on the LSAT without ever going to college. This is not true of MCAT for med school. For the MCAT have to actually know core subject content and if you are relying on a foundational biology or chemistry course you got a B in at a lower quality school, that may not be adequate preparation.

 

To sum up...I'm in full agreement with the posters who say early college really needs to be approached on a case by case basis looking at the individual student, their goals, and their resources. It is absolutely a great choice for some. It isn't the magic cure for all gifted homeschoolers though. It really needs to be approached thoughtfully with an understanding of the long term ramifications.

 

Editing to add:  A Dean from Penn Law says that legacy status is not considered in admissions. The value of legacy status varies widely in undergraduate admissions and people often overestimate the current importance. There is a big difference between "donating money" and being a major contributor, name on the building kind of level.

 

Read very carefully what Dean Post is saying. She said that someone who graduates from Penn and applies to Penn Law is not given any special consideration. That is not the same thing as saying that legacy status doesn't matter.  In fact, having worked with the Admissions Committee at Penn, I can tell you that some graduate schools at Penn will not accept a Penn grad under any circumstances. They want cross pollination at a different school. 

 

Also, I am assuming that if you are considering early college for a ten year old, you have to have some basis for believing that your ten year old can handle the work, and is mature and focused enough to succeed. So getting a "C" in a Community College Photography course should not be a really great risk. As I said, start with easy courses. If you think your kid may not be up to it, then don't do it, or if you do, audit the course and see how he/she does in the exams. 

 

In the event your kid does get a "C" I stand by what I said. A "C" in  a college course at age 10 is meaningless. If the rest of the record, especially the last year or two is what is important. 

 

Of course early college needs to be approached on a case by case basis. It is not for everyone. Not everyone can do it. My family has done it twice, and we are all very happy with the results. My son is finishing up Law School this year, and he is already working part time in a law office, and has a job waiting for him when he passes the bar. I expect my daughter will do the same. 

 

A word about UConn Law School. UConn Law is an excellent school. On the top law school admissions criteria that were previously cited for 2015 in this thread, UConn was 32nd on the list. What's the difference between 20th and 32nd? I don't know. I suspect not much. I don't follow beauty contests like US News And World Reports. Certainly if you are looking to work in a top New York or International Law Firm, there are probably ten schools in the country that matter, i.e., that fill 90% of those positions. If that is not your goal, however, then going to a school like Penn Law could just be a waste of money. If you graduate from a a great school but can't find a job, then what have you accomplished?  Remember, the big firms are only interested in the TOP graduates from any school. Getting into the right law school is the BEGINNING not the END of your work. UConn is very highly regarded in this geographical

 

area. It's Connecticut Bar Exam pass rate exceeds that of Yale or any other school. 85% of UConn Law grads are employed after graduation:

 

http://uconn.lawschoolnumbers.com/#school_employment

 

As I said, top ranked law schools may not always be the best option.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Only the most wealthy "development" legacies have a shoo-in at the Ivy caliber schools because there are far too many highly qualfied legacy applicants to admit most of them. My alma mater, Stanford, rejects something like 85% of all legacy applicants. Now that is more favorable odds than the general application pool, but the ones who are getting in are not the marginal candidates unless they have some other hook like Affirmative Action, recruited athlete, etc.

 

 

 

Agreed. However, if you have to your school, and if you have participated in alumni service to your school, you have a much better chance of being favored than if you have graduated and simply forgotten about your school until your kids decided to apply there.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

FWIW, I've been gone all day but I'd like to add another two cents. Sea Conquest's post reminded me of something, that about half of my class at a top-tier school worked for two or more years between undergrad and law school. (That would include both myself and my dh.). That particular school valued work experience for the reasons Sea Conquest mentioned. So did law firms.

 

Your dd should understand that there can be big downsides to attending a lower-tier school than might otherwise be possible. First, there is significant geographic pigeon-holing for any school outside the top (15) tier (or maybe the top-20, though even that can be a stretch; I am not exaggerating). What if she decides after law school that she might like to try living someplace other than New England? FWIW, I thought I was breaking free just moving 700 miles to the east coast to attend college at 18...at 22, I bought a one way ticket to California with a whopping $1500 in my pocket, at 25 I drove back to the east coast and ultimately landed in the Midwest...now we live in the Rocky Mountain region; my dh's practice is national/international.

 

Second, there's a difference in the types of firms that are willing to hire from lower-tier schools and with that comes a price in terms of the intellectual sophistication of the practice and the corresponding compensation. I'm not saying that it's impossible to break out of the pigeon-holing, just that it can be quite difficult, especially when the market is as it has been for the past two decades. (Take this from someone who ran a summer associate program at a boutique firm in a large city.)

 

Third, law school can be the first time a bright student finds such a large number of intellectual peers, "finding one's people," so to speak. Just another factor; for me personally, that turned out to be an important one, even though I had previously attended a selective college. Perhaps I wasn't mature enough to gravitate to my intellectual peers between 18 and 22 years old.

 

Bottom line, I am still of the position that most people should at least apply to the highest-ranked schools (if they can stretch to something in the top tier or top 20) that would be reasonably possible considering grades and scores, and then see how the finances shake out. In your dd's case, that might possibly include something just inside the top-20; I'd at least consider it even though it seems like a stretch.

 

As for that handy calculator that Georgia in NC linked, my stats are really old, but the school I attended is listed as giving me a 75% chance, the top-5 school I was wait-listed at a 50% chance, and Harvard a 27% chance (where I was rejected). That was with grades similar to your dd's but from a more competitive undergrad and much higher test scores.

 

Other random thoughts: the JD/MBA joint degree people I know (my school has a top B school) are working in business rather than practicing law. As for intellectual property (patent, etc.), AFAIK, that practice area is common at large or boutique firms, the same types of firms who typically hire from top schools almost exclusively. A STEM undergrad degree does offer a nice hook for that area. I highly recommend an undergrad major in an area of interest that could offer a career path if law school doesn't end up happening.

 

Ok, more than my two cents... One of the downsides of early college is making big decisions from a limited perspective, so I am trying to offer more.

 

p.s. IMO there is no disadvantage whatsoever on the LSAT for a homeschooler who lacks extensive standardized test experience. On the other hand, just thinking out loud, I kind of wonder whether some sort of brain maturation in early adulthood could make a difference with the logic section (I performed significantly better on the LSAT at 24 y.o. than I did on the SAT at 17)

 

Eta, I agree with Barbara that law school admissions is less-competitive lately - like right now - than it was back when I attended (it feels like it was yesterday and I forget how old I really am)

 

Eta again, now that I think about it, one of my college roommates attended a random law school and went to work in her hometown. Her family is very involved in local politics and so forth, and now she is some sort of high ranking attorney for some part of the government of an area which shall remain nameless. For her, it worked out nicely and I can totally see her fitting well in her current line of work, a bright person, very tough and quite successful at what she does.

 

I believe I agree with everything you said, which is truly amazing for me.

 

Again, there is a lot I haven't told you (and won't) about my family's situation that went into many of the decisions we made.  Bear in mind also that much depends upon the kid. What does the kid want? What is the kid willing to do. I wanted my kids to apply to Penn Undergraduate, but they had no interest. I want at least my daughter to apply to Penn Law, but she has no interest. It is just as well. I doubt she would care to work in a large firm for the type of clients large firms attract. She wants a boutique practice where she "can make a difference." She has certain goals in mind, and she is truly driven. I have no doubt she will succeed.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I'm sorry, but this is absolutely not true. I have several friends who currently teach at Harvard, Brown, etc. who did not attend your handful of schools, at least not in undergrad (and some not for their PhDs). I think you mean well, and I am glad your choice worked out for your family, but IMO you are mistaken in many of your pronouncements.

 

I am not making "pronouncements." I am giving opinions, well-informed opinions, since I move in circles that have a lot to do with what I am talking about.  You can choose not to believe them if you wish. 

 

Of course there are exceptions to any generalization. There are plenty of people who graduate from no-name colleges who end up on top. However, percentage wise, in academe, certain schools dominate. That cannot be denied. And as you said, if you didn't graduate from one of them as an undergraduate, you probably did as a graduate if you are high up in an academic field. This of course also does not take good foreign schools into consideration. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Vegesauras, welcome to the board. 

 

I've got a couple of questions.  First, I'm not clear on how doing fewer classes will help my son.  Looks like when he enters full time, one year early, he will slot into 300 level mathematics courses.  This means that his undergraduate will consist of 300 level and graduate level courses, rather than 100, 200, and 300. So he will have exposure to more types of mathematics from which to choose from for his grad work.  If he did early-entrance, he would have a much less developed understanding of field of mathematics and what part he was interested in.  Do you see this as only a mathematics issue? Perhaps mathematics is more differentiated than other subjects?  Perhaps it takes longer to gain skill? 

 

Also, for him the moment he enters full time, he cannot compete in the IMO (international math olympiad).  From what I can tell, attending the IMO is worth delaying full-time university entrance from the point of view of a resume.  So I guess I would like to know how you would weigh these types of options.

 

Finally, the moment my ds enters full time, he will focus in math and math only.  No more violin or mandarin, both of which are passions of his but both of which always fall to the bottom of his priorities when there is math to do.  For him, delaying full time entrance allows him to be a fuller person.  Interested to hear your comments on this.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

Ruth, if you are in New Zealand, I am not sure how much of what I am saying has any meaning or relevance for you.  I know very little about foreign schools, and although I lived in Europe for three years, I have only a overview understanding of the European educational system, and I know nothing whatsoever about your country or what you might want to consider. As I said previously, early college decisions should be made on a case by case basis, and, I might add, on a country by country basis.

[saw]

Sorry, this fact confuses me. Do you mean that a greater percentage of UConn Law graduates pass the CT bar than Yale Law grads do? Or do you mean a greater percentage of UConn Law grads pass the CT bar than Yale Law grads pass whatever the corresponding bar exam is (because most Yale Law grads aren't taking the CT bar, I think). I find it quite surprising that Yale's bar pass rate would be lower than a school that is ranked significantly lower.

 

 

It's Connecticut Bar Exam pass rate exceeds that of Yale or any other school.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

 

Sorry, this fact confuses me. Do you mean that a greater percentage of UConn Law graduates pass the CT bar than Yale Law grads do? Or do you mean a greater percentage of UConn Law grads pass the CT bar than Yale Law grads pass whatever the corresponding bar exam is (because most Yale Law grads aren't taking the CT bar, I think). I find it quite surprising that Yale's bar pass rate would be lower than a school that is ranked significantly lower.

 

 

It's Connecticut Bar Exam pass rate exceeds that of Yale or any other school.

 

 

UConn has a higher Connecticut Bar Pass Rate than Yale. As for other bar exams, I don't know:

 

High Pass Rate on State Bar Exam 

for UConn Law School Graduates

by David Bauman

Law graduates from the UConn School of Law achieved the highest percentage among graduates of the state’s three law schools passing the Connecticut bar exam this year, according to the State Bar Examining Committee.

July bar results released last week by the Hartford-based committee show that 94 percent of the 109 UConn law graduates taking the state bar exam for the first time passed – the school’s highest pass rate ever.

By comparison, 92 percent of Yale graduates passed the exam the first time. At Quinnipiac University’s School of Law, 76 percent of graduates passed.

The overall pass rate for UConn Law School graduates in July 2004 was 93 percent (118 took the exam), an improvement of 4 percentage points over the previous year.

“I am very pleased to announce that our students performed admirably on the July bar. The 94 percent first-time pass rate and 93 percent overall pass rate are truly outstanding,†said Nell Jessup Newton, dean of the Law School. The exam, which is required for licensure as an attorney, serves as a good indicator of the quality of the Law School’s instructional program, she added.

The bar exam is taken twice a year – in February and July. Across the state, 666 people took the exam for the first time in July, with 553 (83 percent) passing, the Bar Examining Committee reported.

In more populated states such as New York, thousands of people take the bar exam. In Connecticut, 234 students from law schools based in the state were first-time takers of the exam in July, the balance being law students from around the country taking the test in order to be licensed to practice law in the state.

 

This older notice was the only one I could find on the Internet after a short search. However, it is the same every year. I welcome your trying to find more recent information.

[8filltheheart]

We are a family that does not pursue early graduation, though our kids definitely pursue higher level courses at the university when they have exhausted what we can achieve at home.

 

I love working with my kids, and homeschooling allows us the freedom to explore subjects with their interests and resources that match their abilities. I believe that what we accomplish at home often exceeds the quality and depth that they would be exposed to elsewhere. Our CCs are not geared toward gifted individuals and high levels of challenge. They are geared toward assisting weaker students succeed. That creates a difference in how things are taught and the expectations of the output.

 

For example, where my dd was reading works like Paradise Lost in 8th grade and writing in depth essays on Milton, at the local CC, English comp might be writing personal compositions about personal triumphs or struggles. It is just a completely different mentality with different objectives. She could have earned college credit for English 101, but she would have missed out on the opportunity to select the lit we were reading, the time to research allusions and influences, and make our next selection build upon what she researched. The latter has had a real impact on her intellectual development in a way that English 101 would not have.

 

We see education not as just a goal toward a degree, but challenging our kids to become independent thinkers who have the opportunity to excel at their own pace and interests and not the pre-defined opportunities in a classroom. It is the joy of homeschooling.

 

Not pursuing early graduation has allowed our kids to be competitive for scholarships, research programs, and have time to explore a wide range of interests before committing themselves to a career objective without the pressure of time tables, grades, and a narrow definition of what should be accomplished in that class time. They find their own paths, often by very circuitous routes. Classrooms don't provide that freedom. Our adult children range from a chemE to an occupational therapist to a ds who is pursuing physics. Our next youngest wants to either be a linguist or major in Russian and then one after her wants to be a meteorologist (though this last one is too young to be committed to a field, but she has been saying it since she was 5.)

 

Early graduation does have a lot of positive draws which you have articulated well. But it isn't without its drawbacks. We all have to weigh the pros and cons for our own families. If I didn't love helping my kids create unique courses and see them thriving intellectually at home while still being able to flourish just as a kid, I would probably have a very different perspective. But our family has been blessed to be able to achieve both......intellectual stimulation and growth and just being a kid.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

We are a family that does not pursue early graduation, though our kids definitely pursue higher level courses at the university when they have exhausted what we can achieve at home.

 

I love working with my kids, and homeschooling allows us the freedom to explore subjects with their interests and resources that match their abilities. I believe that what we accomplish at home often exceeds the quality and depth that they would be exposed to elsewhere. Our CCs are not geared toward gifted individuals and high levels of challenge. They are geared toward assisting weaker students succeed. That creates a difference in how things are taught and the expectations of the output.

 

For example, where my dd was reading works like Paradise Lost in 8th grade and writing in depth essays on Milton, at the local CC, English comp might be writing personal compositions about personal triumphs or struggles. It is just a completely different mentality with different objectives. She could have earned college credit for English 101, but she would have missed out on the opportunity to select the lit we were reading, the time to research allusions and influences, and make our next selection build upon what she researched. The latter has had a real impact on her intellectual development in a way that English 101 would not have.

 

We see education not as just a goal toward a degree, but challenging our kids to become independent thinkers who have the opportunity to excel at their own pace and interests and not the pre-defined opportunities in a classroom. It is the joy of homeschooling.

 

Not pursuing early graduation has allowed our kids to be competitive for scholarships, research programs, and have time to explore a wide range of interests before committing themselves to a career objective without the pressure of time tables, grades, and a narrow definition of what should be accomplished in that class time. They find their own paths, often by very circuitous routes. Classrooms don't provide that freedom. Our adult children range from a chemE to an occupational therapist, to a ds who is pursuing physics. Our next youngest wants to either be a linguist or major in Russian and then one after her wants to be a meteorologist (though this last one is too young to be committed to a field, but she has been saying it since she was 5.)

 

Early graduation does have a lot of positive draws which you have articulated well. But it isn't without its drawbacks. We all have to weigh the pros and cons for our own families. If I didn't love helping my kids create unique courses and see them thriving intellectually at home while still being able to flourish just as a kid, I would probably have a very different perspective. But our family has been blessed to be able to achieve both......intellectual stimulation and growth and just being a kid.

 

I agree with much of what you say, but differ profoundly with some of it. For example your comment on your community colleges not offering a high level of challenges. Obviously, you limited that comment to YOUR Community Colleges, but I can tell you that ours DO offer challenges at whatever level you want.  For example, my daughter took a screenwriting course at Tunxis, and had to write movie script. The first Act was complete, the others had to be sketched out with plot points, biographies of characters, and a complete story board. She then had to do a tag line and pitch the story. The professor was herself a screenwriter who at the time of the class had an off Broadway Play. As part of the class she went to New York to see the play. This subject could not have been better taught at Harvard.

 

And as for a subject like Math, these are some of their upper level offerings:

 

MAT*222 Statistics II with 

Technology Applications

3 credits (MAT-201) (51-193)

Designed for those students who desire a more in-depth study 

of statistics, especially those wishing to transfer to a four-year 

institution. Topics include hypothesis testing, statistical inference 

about means and proportions with two populations, linear 

regression and correlation, multiple regression, analysis of 

variance, inferences about population variances, goodness of 

fit and independence, and nonparametric methods. Prerequisite: 

C- or better in Elementary Statistics with Computer Application 

(MAT*165). (ElectiveType: G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*254 Calculus I

4 credits (MAT-131) (51-271)

The limit and derivative of a function are developed. Applications 

include concavity, optimization problems and rectilinear motion. 

The definite integral and techniques of integration are also 

further studied. Applications of the definite integral include area 

under a curve, volumes of solids, arc length, work and center of 

mass. Prerequisite:C- or better in Precalculus (MAT*186).(Elective

Type: G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*256 Calculus II

4 credits (MAT-132) (51-272)

The logarithmic and exponential functions along with their 

derivatives and integrals; models of growth and decay; inverse 

trigonometric and hyperbolic functions and their derivatives; 

integrals; further techniques of integration; indeterminate 

forms; improper integrals; infinite series; and power series 

representation of functions. Topics selected from analytic 

geometry include rotation of axis. Prerequisite: C- or better in 

Calculus I (MAT*254).(ElectiveType:G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*268 Calculus III: Multivariable

4 credits (MAT-210) (51-273)

A continuation of Calculus II. Included are vectors, the geometry 

of space and vector functions, along with applications. Partial 

differentiation and double and triple integration are undertaken, 

as well as their applications. Line integrals, Green’s Theorem 

and Stoke’s Theorem are included. Prerequisite: C- or better in 

Calculus II (MAT*256).(ElectiveType:G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed:7)

MAT*285 Differential Equations

3 credits (MAT-210) (51-276)

Methods of solution of ordinary differential equations, including 

the LaPlace Transform, are covered. Some elementary applications 

 

Remember this is a community college. In my opinion this college is one of the best options you can take for great instruction and being challenged as the highest level possible for a Community College. Take a look at their catalogue:

 

http://www.tunxis.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tunxis-2014-2015-Catalog-Web.pdf

 

I might add that people come from other states to attend this community college.

[saw]

UConn has a higher Connecticut Bar Pass Rate than Yale. As for other bar exams, I don't know:

 

High Pass Rate on State Bar Exam 

for UConn Law School Graduates

by David Bauman

Law graduates from the UConn School of Law achieved the highest percentage among graduates of the state’s three law schools passing the Connecticut bar exam this year, according to the State Bar Examining Committee.

July bar results released last week by the Hartford-based committee show that 94 percent of the 109 UConn law graduates taking the state bar exam for the first time passed – the school’s highest pass rate ever.

By comparison, 92 percent of Yale graduates passed the exam the first time. At Quinnipiac University’s School of Law, 76 percent of graduates passed.

The overall pass rate for UConn Law School graduates in July 2004 was 93 percent (118 took the exam), an improvement of 4 percentage points over the previous year.

“I am very pleased to announce that our students performed admirably on the July bar. The 94 percent first-time pass rate and 93 percent overall pass rate are truly outstanding,†said Nell Jessup Newton, dean of the Law School. The exam, which is required for licensure as an attorney, serves as a good indicator of the quality of the Law School’s instructional program, she added.

The bar exam is taken twice a year – in February and July. Across the state, 666 people took the exam for the first time in July, with 553 (83 percent) passing, the Bar Examining Committee reported.

In more populated states such as New York, thousands of people take the bar exam. In Connecticut, 234 students from law schools based in the state were first-time takers of the exam in July, the balance being law students from around the country taking the test in order to be licensed to practice law in the state.

 

This older notice was the only one I could find on the Internet after a short search. However, it is the same every year. I welcome your trying to find more recent information.

 

My understanding is that you're citing this statistic as proof that UConn is an excellent law school that has statistics that on occasion equal Yale's. I don't know much about UConn Law, but I think that this particular statistic is misleading. I don't know what percentage of Yale's graduates take the CT bar, but I doubt that the percentage (or number) is equal to that of UConn's. Yale's site refers only to the statistics for the NY bar and the CA bar, which covers well more than 50 per cent of the school's graduates. I think therefore that the number of students taking the CT bar from Yale is not a good sample as the number may well vary. Look for example at the pass rates for the Feb 2012 bar:

Additionally, for the February 2012 administration of the bar exam, the following pass rates apply for graduates of the following Committee-approved law schools:

Law School      Pass Rate University of Connecticut School of Law  67% Quinnipiac School of Law  54% Yale University School of Law    100% University of Massachusetts School of Law – Dartmouth   3% Massachusetts School of Law  

48%

 

(http://www.lawyeredu.org/connecticut.html)

One could cite this statistic to support the view that UConn is not doing all that well, but I think that would be unfair as this number is heavily dependent on the number of students taking the bar at that point. For all I know it could have been dozens of UConn students and one Yale student, which would prove exactly nothing. I realize this is a silly point to quibble about, but I don't think the education one gets at UConn would be the equivalent of the education one gets at Yale. Not that a UConn-educated lawyer could not do as well as one from Yale, or that a Yale-educated lawyer will necessarily be a good lawyer, of course. Just that on average, Yale beats UConn.

[8filltheheart]

 

I agree with much of what you say, but differ profoundly with some of it. For example your comment on your community colleges not offering a high level of challenges. Obviously, you limited that comment to YOUR Community Colleges, but I can tell you that ours DO offer challenges at whatever level you want. For example, my daughter took a screenwriting course at Tunxis, and had to write movie script. The first Act was complete, the others had to be sketched out with plot points, biographies of characters, and a complete story board. She then had to do a tag line and pitch the story. The professor was herself a screenwriter who at the time of the class had an off Broadway Play. As part of the class she went to New York to see the play. This subject could not have been better taught at Harvard.

 

And as for a subject like Math, these are some of their upper level offerings:

 

MAT*222 Statistics II with

Technology Applications

3 credits (MAT-201) (51-193)

Designed for those students who desire a more in-depth study

of statistics, especially those wishing to transfer to a four-year

institution. Topics include hypothesis testing, statistical inference

about means and proportions with two populations, linear

regression and correlation, multiple regression, analysis of

variance, inferences about population variances, goodness of

fit and independence, and nonparametric methods. Prerequisite:

C- or better in Elementary Statistics with Computer Application

(MAT*165). (ElectiveType: G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*254 Calculus I

4 credits (MAT-131) (51-271)

The limit and derivative of a function are developed. Applications

include concavity, optimization problems and rectilinear motion.

The definite integral and techniques of integration are also

further studied. Applications of the definite integral include area

under a curve, volumes of solids, arc length, work and center of

mass. Prerequisite:C- or better in Precalculus (MAT*186).(Elective

Type: G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*256 Calculus II

4 credits (MAT-132) (51-272)

The logarithmic and exponential functions along with their

derivatives and integrals; models of growth and decay; inverse

trigonometric and hyperbolic functions and their derivatives;

integrals; further techniques of integration; indeterminate

forms; improper integrals; infinite series; and power series

representation of functions. Topics selected from analytic

geometry include rotation of axis. Prerequisite: C- or better in

Calculus I (MAT*254).(ElectiveType:G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*268 Calculus III: Multivariable

4 credits (MAT-210) (51-273)

A continuation of Calculus II. Included are vectors, the geometry

of space and vector functions, along with applications. Partial

differentiation and double and triple integration are undertaken,

as well as their applications. Line integrals, Green’s Theorem

and Stoke’s Theorem are included. Prerequisite: C- or better in

Calculus II (MAT*256).(ElectiveType:G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed:7)

MAT*285 Differential Equations

3 credits (MAT-210) (51-276)

Methods of solution of ordinary differential equations, including

the LaPlace Transform, are covered. Some elementary applications

 

Remember this is a community college. In my opinion this college is one of the best options you can take for great instruction and being challenged as the highest level possible for a Community College. Take a look at their catalogue:

 

http://www.tunxis.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tunxis-2014-2015-Catalog-Web.pdf

 

I might add that people come from other states to attend this community college.

We move a lot and I have had my older kids graduate in three different states. The local CCs in all 3 states have not been great schools, just avg old CCs with the mission of serving the community. There are multiple posters on these forums who have access to quality CCs. We just haven't been one of them. Having lived in TN for yrs and our oldest graduating from high school in TN, I doubt that dmmetler does either. (The poster above with the gifted dd who loves snakes.)

 

I know what our CCs offer BC my kids have taken some courses there. Definitely not a fan. And courses with similar titles are not all equal. Our youngest ds who is currently a college freshman took math through AoPS (Art of Problem Solving which is geared toward top math students) until he finished their high school sequence in 10th grade. He took multivariable cal, diffEQ, and linear alg, plus 5 cal up physics courses at local regional universities. (We moved the middle of his 11th grade yr.) CCs don't even offer the level of coursework he ended up taking before he graduated from high school.

 

But that is really besides the point. We have never lived near a CC that offers the level of challenge that AoPS offered him for what is the equivalent of cal 1 and 2. And they don't offer Russian, linguistics, Milton, etc. These are all opportunities our kids have had bc they homeschool and we can create the opportunities they have.

[kiana]

 

And as for a subject like Math, these are some of their upper level offerings:

 

MAT*222 Statistics II with 

Technology Applications

3 credits (MAT-201) (51-193)

Designed for those students who desire a more in-depth study 

of statistics, especially those wishing to transfer to a four-year 

institution. Topics include hypothesis testing, statistical inference 

about means and proportions with two populations, linear 

regression and correlation, multiple regression, analysis of 

variance, inferences about population variances, goodness of 

fit and independence, and nonparametric methods. Prerequisite: 

C- or better in Elementary Statistics with Computer Application 

(MAT*165). (ElectiveType: G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*254 Calculus I

4 credits (MAT-131) (51-271)

The limit and derivative of a function are developed. Applications 

include concavity, optimization problems and rectilinear motion. 

The definite integral and techniques of integration are also 

further studied. Applications of the definite integral include area 

under a curve, volumes of solids, arc length, work and center of 

mass. Prerequisite:C- or better in Precalculus (MAT*186).(Elective

Type: G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*256 Calculus II

4 credits (MAT-132) (51-272)

The logarithmic and exponential functions along with their 

derivatives and integrals; models of growth and decay; inverse 

trigonometric and hyperbolic functions and their derivatives; 

integrals; further techniques of integration; indeterminate 

forms; improper integrals; infinite series; and power series 

representation of functions. Topics selected from analytic 

geometry include rotation of axis. Prerequisite: C- or better in 

Calculus I (MAT*254).(ElectiveType:G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed: 7)

MAT*268 Calculus III: Multivariable

4 credits (MAT-210) (51-273)

A continuation of Calculus II. Included are vectors, the geometry 

of space and vector functions, along with applications. Partial 

differentiation and double and triple integration are undertaken, 

as well as their applications. Line integrals, Green’s Theorem 

and Stoke’s Theorem are included. Prerequisite: C- or better in 

Calculus II (MAT*256).(ElectiveType:G/LA/M) (Ability Assessed:7)

MAT*285 Differential Equations

3 credits (MAT-210) (51-276)

Methods of solution of ordinary differential equations, including 

the LaPlace Transform, are covered. Some elementary applications 

 

Remember this is a community college. In my opinion this college is one of the best options you can take for great instruction and being challenged as the highest level possible for a Community College. Take a look at their catalogue:

 

http://www.tunxis.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tunxis-2014-2015-Catalog-Web.pdf

 

I might add that people come from other states to attend this community college.

 

 

The catalogue does not tell you much about the rigor of the courses. The CC's calculus courses are just not going to be as challenging as an online course like AOPS that is designed from the ground up for gifted learners. They're also not going to be as challenging as something like Calculus with Theory at MIT or Harvard's notorious Math 55. I will trust you that it's good and the equivalent of the standard freshmen sequence at any state university -- but there is a lot beyond that in math that never gets taught at the freshmen level. Someone who wanted to be (hypothetically) a research mathematician would be much better off maxing out the AOPS courses even if they get less credit for it. It might seem like you're wasting time, but the increased mathematical maturity and non-standard curricular knowledge gained will be invaluable in graduate school. It would probably make the difference between a 3-year PhD and a 6-year PhD, or between a PhD at Princeton vs. a PhD at a random state university. 

 

Furthermore, many CC's have the exact same courses with the exact same course description -- and yet they water down the courses significantly through easier exams, strong hints, or re-tests. For example: Solve this differential equation by separation of variables is far different from Solve this word problem without even a hint as to an appropriate tactic to take. 

 

Again: Nobody here is against early college. It just has to be considered in context of the student's current goals and the available resources. 

 

There's also a huge difference between early enrollment in a few courses and early full-time matriculation. The former is a good fit for many, many students. The latter is a good fit for fewer (but still a goodly number) of them. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

We move a lot and I have had my older kids graduate in three different states. The local CCs in all 3 states have not been great schools, just avg old CCs with the mission of serving the community. There are multiple posters on these forums who have access to quality CCs. We just haven't been one of them. Having lived in TN for yrs and our oldest graduating from high school in TN, I doubt that dmmetler does either. (The poster above with the gifted dd who loves snakes.)

 

I know what our CCs offer BC my kids have taken some courses there. Definitely not a fan. And courses with similar titles are not all equal. Our youngest ds who is currently a college freshman took math through AoPS (Art of Problem Solving which is geared toward top math students) until he finished their high school sequence in 10th grade. He took multivariable cal, diffEQ, and linear alg, plus 5 cal up physics courses at local regional universities. (We moved the middle of his 11th grade yr.) CCs don't even offer the level of coursework he ended up taking before he graduated from high school.

 

But that is really besides the point. We have never lived near a CC that offers the level of challenge that AoPS offered him for what is the equivalent of cal 1 and 2. And they don't offer Russian, linguistics, Milton, etc. These are all opportunities our kids have had bc they homeschool and we can create the opportunities they have.

 

Having home schooled myself, I agree with your comment on the advantages of home schooling instruction. However, my experience has been completely different from yours as to available courses in the area. As I mentioned previously, my son took advanced Latin and Greek at Trinity College in Hartford. Almost every college I know of has a community outreach where high school aged kids are given free courses for the taking at their schools. In Latin, for instance, my kids began with Minimus Mouse in our homeschool followed by Wheelocks in a class I taught to any home schooler or schooler who wanted to take it. Tunxis then instituted a first year college Latin Course which also used Wheelocks. Trinity took it from there. Have you tried looking at local colleges and asking whether or not they give high school aged kids free courses?

[8filltheheart]

Having home schooled myself, I agree with your comment on the advantages of home schooling instruction. However, my experience has been completely different from yours as to available courses in the area. As I mentioned previously, my son took advanced Latin and Greek at Trinity College in Hartford. Almost every college I know of has a community outreach where high school aged kids are given free courses for the taking at their schools. In Latin, for instance, my kids began with Minimus Mouse in our homeschool followed by Wheelocks in a class I taught to any home schooler or schooler who wanted to take it. Tunxis then instituted a first year college Latin Course which also used Wheelocks. Trinity took it from there. Have you tried looking at local colleges and asking whether or not they give high school aged kids free courses?

???

Did you read my post? I listed university courses my ds took locally. Unfortunately free, no. They do offer a free class first semester sr yr.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

The catalogue does not tell you much about the rigor of the courses. The CC's calculus courses are just not going to be as challenging as an online course like AOPS that is designed from the ground up for gifted learners. They're also not going to be as challenging as something like Calculus with Theory at MIT or Harvard's notorious Math 55. I will trust you that it's good and the equivalent of the standard freshmen sequence at any state university -- but there is a lot beyond that in math that never gets taught at the freshmen level. Someone who wanted to be (hypothetically) a research mathematician would be much better off maxing out the AOPS courses even if they get less credit for it. It might seem like you're wasting time, but the increased mathematical maturity and non-standard curricular knowledge gained will be invaluable in graduate school. It would probably make the difference between a 3-year PhD and a 6-year PhD, or between a PhD at Princeton vs. a PhD at a random state university. 

 

Furthermore, many CC's have the exact same courses with the exact same course description -- and yet they water down the courses significantly through easier exams, strong hints, or re-tests. For example: Solve this differential equation by separation of variables is far different from Solve this word problem without even a hint as to an appropriate tactic to take. 

 

Again: Nobody here is against early college. It just has to be considered in context of the student's current goals and the available resources. 

 

There's also a huge difference between early enrollment in a few courses and early full-time matriculation. The former is a good fit for many, many students. The latter is a good fit for fewer (but still a goodly number) of them. 

 

Unfortunately I have no experience with AOPS but I have plenty of experience with math in college.  I agree that calculus is a very small part of math, and for a math major, if all you could get would be calculus, that would be a major disadvantage. However, for science majors such as Biology Majors, Chemistry Majors, etc, a good calculus background along with statistics is all you need. (For physics, perhaps that and topology and tensor analysis.) I think that ultimately the standard in math is defined by the colleges, not by gifted courses for high school students.  I have confidence that the courses offered by our community college were college level rigorous. In addition, as I said, colleges like Trinity offered free courses to area high school kids.  There is nothing watered down about these courses. 

 

As I also said, ultimately one must confront the need for an undergraduate degree. In my opinion, doing so sooner rather than later is a good choice, although I certainly agree that it is up to the abilities and desires and maturity of the individual who will be taking the course.  What I am offering in this thread is my experience with two kids who graduated with honors and a bachelor's degree at 18 and 19.  I sincerely believe that this was the best route for us, and both of my kids, I believe, will be practicing law by age 22. Very few people have done that. Fortunately for my kids, law gives them the opportunity they are seeking to influence and change the world. They want to make a difference. They can. I am giving them the tools. 

 

For me, as I said, my major goal was an Ivy League Education.  I was accepted by two Ivy Schools. I entered at age 17, which I guess is technically early college. To my kids, an Ivy education meant nothing.  Trust me, this was something I suffered over. But in reality, it is ultimately their decision. They did well. They are happy. That is all that counts. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

???

Did you read my post? I listed university courses my ds took locally. Unfortunately free, no. They do offer a free class first semester sr yr.

 

Sorry I missed that. Again, I am used to a college rich environment like Connecticut where if you don't get what you want at College A, you go to College B. And it is almost always free.

 

Actually I did read what you said, but I thought you were only referring to local community colleges or colleges that weren't very good. If they offered you less than what you could get in high school that is not too great.

[kiana]

Unfortunately I have no experience with AOPS but I have plenty of experience with math in college.  I agree that calculus is a very small part of math, and for a math major, if all you could get would be calculus, that would be a major disadvantage. However, for science majors such as Biology Majors, Chemistry Majors, etc, a good calculus background along with statistics is all you need. (For physics, perhaps that and topology and tensor analysis.) I think that ultimately the standard in math is defined by the colleges, not by gifted courses for high school students.  I have confidence that the courses offered by our community college were college level rigorous. In addition, as I said, colleges like Trinity offered free courses to area high school kids.  There is nothing watered down about these courses. 

 

1) A good background in calculus might be all you need, advanced courses in chemistry and physics do use more math than that. For example, one of my group theory students is telling me about how much better she understands physical chemistry now that she is taking my class. Furthermore, an exceptional background in math rather than an adequate background really will make a student stand out in any STEM field. The standard calculus background is adequate. It is not exceptional.

 

2) I find the idea that gifted kids should shoot only for ticking the "adequate" box even in subjects of interest a rather bad idea. Certainly, someone whose interests are in history or languages might not care to go further than AP calc, and that only to exempt a college requirement, and that's entirely reasonable. 

 

3) I'm super glad your kids are happy and everything is working out brilliantly for you. That's wonderful! But you seem to be offering this as an unmitigated good idea ... and it's just not. FWIW, you would find just as many (probably more) people arguing with you if you were someone else posting about how well waiting until 18 had worked for your gifted kids and how everyone should wait until they were 18 because it had worked so well for you. What people are trying to emphasize is that there are upsides and downsides to every decision, and these need to be considered carefully on a case-by-case basis. Waiting is not just for immature kids who can't really handle it yet. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

1) A good background in calculus might be all you need, advanced courses in chemistry and physics do use more math than that. For example, one of my group theory students is telling me about how much better she understands physical chemistry now that she is taking my class. Furthermore, an exceptional background in math rather than an adequate background really will make a student stand out in any STEM field. The standard calculus background is adequate. It is not exceptional.

 

2) I find the idea that gifted kids should shoot only for ticking the "adequate" box even in subjects of interest a rather bad idea. Certainly, someone whose interests are in history or languages might not care to go further than AP calc, and that only to exempt a college requirement, and that's entirely reasonable. 

 

3) I'm super glad your kids are happy and everything is working out brilliantly for you. That's wonderful! But you seem to be offering this as an unmitigated good idea ... and it's just not. FWIW, you would find just as many (probably more) people arguing with you if you were someone else posting about how well waiting until 18 had worked for your gifted kids and how everyone should wait until they were 18 because it had worked so well for you. What people are trying to emphasize is that there are upsides and downsides to every decision, and these need to be considered carefully on a case-by-case basis. Waiting is not just for immature kids who can't really handle it yet. 

 

I certainly never said or implied that early college is an "unmitigated good idea."  I have no idea where or how you came up with that.  I have said over and over, that whether early college is a good idea depends upon the person doing it, upon their intelligence, maturity, focus, and goals.  Honestly, I don't know how much more clearly can state that, nor do I now how many more times I have to say it until a very small minority here, including you, understand what I mean. 

 

The purpose of my posting here was to try to be of help to those who are considering early college. Yes, it is an unmitigated great idea for SOME people. Not for everybody. Some will crash and burn. Some will hate it. Some are not capable of doing it. IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.

 

Am I clear about what I am saying? I would trust parents to know what their kids can and cannot do, what is compatible with their life goals and desires, and what will cause more pain than pleasure. Under no circumstances is what I am saying to be applied to every single kid or to every single home schooler. That is unrealistic and stupid and I would never say such a thing. 

 

If you think your kid is capable of doing this, and if you think they have the maturity and focus and desire to do it, then try it. But remember, early college is not for everyone. Not everyone can do it, not everyone should do it.

 

Am I clear?

[Vegesaurus Rex]

My understanding is that you're citing this statistic as proof that UConn is an excellent law school that has statistics that on occasion equal Yale's. I don't know much about UConn Law, but I think that this particular statistic is misleading. I don't know what percentage of Yale's graduates take the CT bar, but I doubt that the percentage (or number) is equal to that of UConn's. Yale's site refers only to the statistics for the NY bar and the CA bar, which covers well more than 50 per cent of the school's graduates. I think therefore that the number of students taking the CT bar from Yale is not a good sample as the number may well vary. Look for example at the pass rates for the Feb 2012 bar:

Additionally, for the February 2012 administration of the bar exam, the following pass rates apply for graduates of the following Committee-approved law schools:

Law School      Pass Rate University of Connecticut School of Law  67% Quinnipiac School of Law  54% Yale University School of Law    100% University of Massachusetts School of Law – Dartmouth   3% Massachusetts School of Law  

48%

 

(http://www.lawyeredu.org/connecticut.html)

One could cite this statistic to support the view that UConn is not doing all that well, but I think that would be unfair as this number is heavily dependent on the number of students taking the bar at that point. For all I know it could have been dozens of UConn students and one Yale student, which would prove exactly nothing. I realize this is a silly point to quibble about, but I don't think the education one gets at UConn would be the equivalent of the education one gets at Yale. Not that a UConn-educated lawyer could not do as well as one from Yale, or that a Yale-educated lawyer will necessarily be a good lawyer, of course. Just that on average, Yale beats UConn.

 

Yes, it is a silly point to quibble about.  As for Yale "beating" Uconn, that phrasing of the issue is also silly.

 

Yale is a great school for certain things, e.g., for turning out law professors. That is one of the primary goals for Ivy League Law Schools.  It is not a primary goal for UConn. UConn's primary goal is to turn out competent lawyers. primarily lawyers who will stay and work in Connecticut. Their focus is more on the practice of law as opposed to the theory of law. Yale is different. Different focus. Some of those who go to Yale want to work in big New York law firms. I doubt that that many UConn grads have that as a goal. I am certain that my own kids do not. 

 

And yes, without knowing how many people from Yale sit for the Connecticut bar, it would be silly to compare pass rates. UConn traditionally does very well in the Connecticut Bar. That was my point. If your goal is to ultimately pass the Connecticut Bar, you cannot do better than UConn Law. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Perhaps a better thread title would have been: My experience with early college in Connecticut.

 

Connecticut truly is just a tiny slice of the world. I think perhaps it was unclear that you understood that at first.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Here in your neighboring state of NY, it's all highly regulated.  Until recently, homeschoolers weren't even able to dual enroll as part of high school, and they can't dual enroll at a 4 year SUNY, just a 2 year SUNY now. 

 

What I've found is that the 2 year SUNY math classes are fine, if you aren't going into STEM.  The Calc courses are all listed as equivalent, and transfer.  Friends of my sons have taken them, and transferred to 4 year SUNY schools and found out what the difference is.  They are quite bitter, especially since they had to pay for the dual enrollment, then the course that the kid flunked/dropped to find out, then the apt for summer school so that the kid could still have a chance of graduating in four.  Of course, students that got in to Cornell knew they couldn't transfer them in (per Cornell's policy).  Their parents aren't too happy at having to pay for dual enrollment, but it is that or study hall.

 

I hope you can advocate on a bigger stage for quality courses available to all qualified high schoolers.  The current zip code method is not doing the nation any favors.

 

Yes, I've heard horror stories from New York.  Unfortunately, in Connecticut right now we are under attack from Governor Malloy and his Sandy Hook Advisory Commission. Because Adam Lanza did school at home (not homeschooling) he is blaming all homeschoolers in Connecticut for what he did. This is the kind of crap we have to deal with every couple of years.

 

I agree with you that New York and Connecticut both should show more respect to home schoolers. At the moment, however, I just hope we survive this assault.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Perhaps a better thread title would have been: My experience with early college in Connecticut.

 

Connecticut truly is just a tiny slice of the world. I think perhaps it was unclear that you understood that at first.

 

I think there are some general principles that can be taken from my experience. And since no one else on this board narrows the scope of their subjects so completely, why is it necessary for me to do so?

 

I could turn around what you said and simply state that those of you who are having problems should simply state that the problems are unique to your states and particular circumstances.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Perhaps a better thread title would have been: My experience with early college in Connecticut.

 

Connecticut truly is just a tiny slice of the world. I think perhaps it was unclear that you understood that at first.

 

 

I think there are some general principles that can be taken from my experience. And since no one else on this board narrows the scope of their subjects so completely, why is it necessary for me to do so?

 

I could turn around what you said and simply state that those of you who are having problems should simply state that the problems are unique to your states and particular circumstances.

 

I never said it was necessary. It was merely a suggestion - you seemed to be concerned that people weren't understanding you. Pardon my suggestion, carry on.

[NCMom]

Perhaps a better thread title would have been: My experience with early college in Connecticut.

 

Connecticut truly is just a tiny slice of the world. I think perhaps it was unclear that you understood that at first.

 

:iagree:

 

I enjoyed hearing of your experiences.  

 

However, you stated several times in your first post that you are an "expert" on early college.  In YOUR state, for YOUR kids, sure.  You clearly achieved your goals.

 

Not everyone shares those exact goals. Not everyone needs "advice" about early college. The people on these boards have a WEALTH of experiences in these areas. They have amazing stories and ideas. These people can think inside AND outside the box to the nth degree. (It scares me a little sometimes, lol.)

 

Not that people aren't interested in hearing of others share their stories!  That's the point of such a forum, no?

 

While I believe that you understand this, the first post came across as rather in your face/convert the unwashed masses. :laugh:

 

Georgia

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I never said it was necessary. It was merely a suggestion - you seemed to be concerned that people weren't understanding you. Pardon my suggestion, carry on.

 

 

Okay, I apologize if I over reacted.  It just seems that I get a lot of silly objections to anything I say. Yours is not silly. Yours would certainly facility understanding if the people here were really seeking to understand. 

 

I think it takes a very rare person to do something like early college. To my mind, college is the ultimate testing ground for whether you are prepared for life or not. I am strongly in favor of home schooling, but I think that at a certain point the rubber must meet the road. You either go out into the big wide world and prove yourself or you don't. That is all I am saying. Early college is certainly one way of proving you can handle real world problems, and that what you have learned prepares you for what is ahead.  All we can do is hope that we have prepared our kids for the launch into independence. IMO early college is a great way to test the waters and to show what you've got. It certainly has been a confidence building experience for my kids.

[kiana]

While I believe that you understand this, the first post came across as rather in your face/convert the unwashed masses. :laugh:

 

Exactly.

 

People, especially on this board, thrash things out, point out things that might seem to be an issue, other things to consider, etc.

 

Especially when someone is presenting himself as an expert offering advice to everyone else, it is important to present all sides of a discussion. 

[Crimson Wife]

Agreed. However, if you have to your school, and if you have participated in alumni service to your school, you have a much better chance of being favored than if you have graduated and simply forgotten about your school until your kids decided to apply there.

 

Whether you've volunteered and/or donated normal sums of money (e.g. not six figures +) is not going to matter one iota unless your child is a strong applicant otherwise. There are far too many legacies applying.

[8filltheheart]

Okay, I apologize if I over reacted. It just seems that I get a lot of silly objections to anything I say. Yours is not silly. Yours would certainly facility understanding if the people here were really seeking to understand.

 

I think it takes a very rare person to do something like early college. To my mind, college is the ultimate testing ground for whether you are prepared for life or not. I am strongly in favor of home schooling, but I think that at a certain point the rubber must meet the road. You either go out into the big wide world and prove yourself or you don't. That is all I am saying. Early college is certainly one way of proving you can handle real world problems, and that what you have learned prepares you for what is ahead. All we can do is hope that we have prepared our kids for the launch into independence. IMO early college is a great way to test the waters and to show what you've got. It certainly has been a confidence building experience for my kids.

See, that is a difference in perspective. I don't think having young kids taking classes at a CC demonstrates educational success. It shows that they are able to handle a certain level of coursework and can navigate campus schedules. Excellent academic opportunities are available through many options, including our own homes. "Showing what they got" is proved through their academic successes even if those successes are strictly confined to our living room.

[kiana]

I certainly never said or implied that early college is an "unmitigated good idea."  I have no idea where or how you came up with that.  I have said over and over, that whether early college is a good idea depends upon the person doing it, upon their intelligence, maturity, focus, and goals.  Honestly, I don't know how much more clearly can state that, nor do I now how many more times I have to say it until a very small minority here, including you, understand what I mean. 

 

The purpose of my posting here was to try to be of help to those who are considering early college. Yes, it is an unmitigated great idea for SOME people. Not for everybody. Some will crash and burn. Some will hate it. Some are not capable of doing it. IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.

 

Am I clear about what I am saying? I would trust parents to know what their kids can and cannot do, what is compatible with their life goals and desires, and what will cause more pain than pleasure. Under no circumstances is what I am saying to be applied to every single kid or to every single home schooler. That is unrealistic and stupid and I would never say such a thing. 

 

If you think your kid is capable of doing this, and if you think they have the maturity and focus and desire to do it, then try it. But remember, early college is not for everyone. Not everyone can do it, not everyone should do it.

 

Am I clear?

 

You said earlier.

 

"IMO, if your kid is truly bright, and has a reasonable amount of maturity and focus, early college is the way to go"

 

That certainly sounds like everyone who has a truly bright and mature kid should go. If this is not what you meant, perhaps you should clarify your earlier post so that all of us can understand what you really meant. 

[regentrude]

 To my mind, college is the ultimate testing ground for whether you are prepared for life or not.

 

Wow. Just, wow.

 

So a person whose life goals do NOT include a college education is not "prepared for life"?

That is one of the most arrogant statements I have heard. (And I am saying this as a college instructor with a doctorate, coming from a family of highly educated people, with children who are/will be attending college - this is not me crying "sour grapes" because I could not hack college.)

 

Conversely, I also encounter students who may be able to manage college, but who are not really "prepared for life".

 

Just shaking my head here.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

:iagree:

 

I enjoyed hearing of your experiences.  

 

However, you stated several times in your first post that you are an "expert" on early college.  In YOUR state, for YOUR kids, sure.  You clearly achieved your goals.

 

Not everyone shares those exact goals. Not everyone needs "advice" about early college. The people on these boards have a WEALTH of experiences in these areas. They have amazing stories and ideas. These people can think inside AND outside the box to the nth degree. (It scares me a little sometimes, lol.)

 

Not that people aren't interested in hearing of others share their stories!  That's the point of such a forum, no?

 

While I believe that you understand this, the first post came across as rather in your face/convert the unwashed masses. :laugh:

 

Georgia

 

Interesting.  I do believe my experience, while not exactly unique, is nonetheless extremely rare.

 

How many others on this board have had their kids do early college?

 

How many posters have done it for more than one kid?

 

How many posters on this board have kids who do early college then get accepted to law school?

 

Certainly, when I was homeschooling and finding my way among the various options,  I would have LOVED to have someone like myself give me advice.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Exactly.

 

People, especially on this board, thrash things out, point out things that might seem to be an issue, other things to consider, etc.

 

Especially when someone is presenting himself as an expert offering advice to everyone else, it is important to present all sides of a discussion. 

 

 

I think I am an expert. How many others here have two kids who have graduated from college in their teens (or even one kid.) Seriously.  HOW MANY OTHERS? 

 

Doing something in theory and doing it in reality are two different things. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Whether you've volunteered and/or donated normal sums of money (e.g. not six figures +) is not going to matter one iota unless your child is a strong applicant otherwise. There are far too many legacies applying.

 

Sorry, but I disagree that it would have no effect. Of course, someone applying to Stanford must have a strong resume in any case. That goes without saying.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

You said earlier.

 

"IMO, if your kid is truly bright, and has a reasonable amount of maturity and focus, early college is the way to go"

 

That certainly sounds like everyone who has a truly bright and mature kid should go. If this is not what you meant, perhaps you should clarify your earlier post so that all of us can understand what you really meant. 

 

The assumption here is that the kid wants to do this, which I have said explicitly many many times.

 

This is the kind of stupid nit picking that I am getting very tired of. If you are going to quote what I say to criticize me, do not take things out of context. 

[regentrude]

I think I am an expert. How many others here have two kids who have graduated from college in their teens (or even one kid.) Seriously.  HOW MANY OTHERS? 

 

Doing something in theory and doing it in reality are two different things. 

 

There are others. As you would find out if you read a little longer on these boards before jumping in and showing us how much we are in need to be educated by your expertise.

 

And then there are users whose children would have been easily capable of graduating college at an early age and whose parents elected not to go that route.

My DD was tutoring calculus based physics at a STEM university at age 15. She could easily have completed community college as a teen - but this would not have been her or our educational goal. Instead, she chose to graduate only one year early and use the university courses she took while in high school to boost her transcript and be competetive for admission to a highly ranked university as a regular freshman where she will spend the full four years taking advantage of the educatona opportunities offered there.

 

 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Wow. Just, wow.

 

So a person whose life goals do NOT include a college education is not "prepared for life"?

That is one of the most arrogant statements I have heard. (And I am saying this as a college instructor with a doctorate, coming from a family of highly educated people, with children who are/will be attending college - this is not me crying "sour grapes" because I could not hack college.)

 

Conversely, I also encounter students who may be able to manage college, but who are not really "prepared for life".

 

Just shaking my head here.

 

I really love the way you are all trying to intentionally misconstrue what I said. You are quite disingenuous. I do not have time to talk to those who only want to shake their fists in other people's faces. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

See, that is a difference in perspective. I don't think having young kids taking classes at a CC demonstrates educational success. It shows that they are able to handle a certain level of coursework and can navigate campus schedules. Excellent academic opportunities are available through many options, including our own homes. "Showing what they got" is proved through their academic successes even if those successes are strictly confined to our living room.

 

No that is not true. At a certain point in their life, the kids will have to leave the living room and go out into the world. Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.

[saw]

Quite a few people on this board have kids doing early college in some form. I've learned a great deal from their posts and from their sharing the thought process that went into the decision to have the child do early college. I've had two kids in school who were accelerated by two years, so the thought of early college has occupied me for the last six years. I've learned from this board and from irl conversations. I myself did a form of early college when I split my senior year of high school between high school and college.

Honestly, I just don't think that your situation is as unusual as you may think it is.

I don't really get why it's a big deal to have your kid do early college and then get accepted to law school. I think many posters here have children who are capable of this. Look, if that is what works for you, super. But please don't assume that just because people on this board have chosen a different path for their children (and with their children's input), that that means their children were not capable of early college and law school. My 16 yo dds have secondary school leaving exam scores that are so high that they have the right to attend the university of their choice in any subject, including medicine and law. These universities are in the world top 100. They chose to wait, but not because they are in any way unequal to the task. We've had great advice from this board and irl, and I think you are perhaps putting people off by using words like "expert" and phrases like "extremely rare", which I believe suggests that you are underestimating the depth and breadth of the experience of the folks on this board.

 

Interesting.  I do believe my experience, while not exactly unique, is nonetheless extremely rare.

 

How many others on this board have had their kids do early college?

 

How many posters have done it for more than one kid?

 

How many posters on this board have kids who do early college then get accepted to law school?

 

Certainly, when I was homeschooling and finding my way among the various options,  I would have LOVED to have someone like myself give me advice.

 

[8filltheheart]

Interesting. I do believe my experience, while not exactly unique, is nonetheless extremely rare.

 

How many others on this board have had their kids do early college?

 

How many posters have done it for more than one kid?

 

How many posters on this board have kids who do early college then get accepted to law school?

 

Certainly, when I was homeschooling and finding my way among the various options, I would have LOVED to have someone like myself give me advice.

Actually, it is a rather interesting mix of people on this board. Many of us have kids who are more than capable of early college but have rejected it for other paths. It isn't that we aren't aware of it is a possibility, but we have found what we consider a better path for our kids.

 

For example, my ds is part of a small honors research program that guarantees him undergrad research. He is attending college on full scholarship. He spent his summers at great academic camps like SSP. If he had graduated early, those are opportunities he would have not had. He has them because he was an amazing high school student. Younger he would have been on par with your avg high school student. He is hoping for undergrad honors like Goldwater Scholar (it may just be a dream, but is a goal he couldn't have had as just another typical student). He wants a top grad physics school.

 

He is a very bright kid. But, being young is not an advantage. It is based on total accomplishments. He will have more by staying on graduating by age, rather than coursework.

[regentrude]

I really love the way you are all trying to intentionally misconstrue what I said. You are quite disingenuous. I do not have time to talk to those who only want to shake their fists in other people's faces. 

 

I do not want to shake my fist or am trying to misconstrue anything. It was you who wrote that, in your mind

 

 

 

college is the ultimate testing ground for whether you are prepared for life or not.

 

I just happen to disagree. As will other boardies, one of which, for example, had to make the difficult experience that college success did not translate into the abilty to even manage an independent life with a menial job for her adult student.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

There are others. As you would find out if you read a little longer on these boards before jumping in and showing us how much we are in need to be educated by your expertise.

 

And then there are users whose children would have been easily capable of graduating college at an early age and whose parents elected not to go that route.

My DD was tutoring calculus based physics at a STEM university at age 15. She could easily have completed community college as a teen - but this would not have been her or our educational goal. Instead, she chose to graduate only one year early and use the university courses she took while in high school to boost her transcript and be competetive for admission to a highly ranked university as a regular freshman where she will spend the full four years taking advantage of the educatona opportunities offered there.

 

 

I am withdrawing my offer to help, since you people know everything. 

 

I have never seen such a bunch of nit picking overly sensitive people in my life.

 

Again, no one has answered the questions:

 

How many of you have had at least one kid graduate from college at age 18 with honors?

 

I think the answer to that question will tell you a lot. I think I am done here.

[NCMom]

Interesting.  I do believe my experience, while not exactly unique, is nonetheless extremely rare.

 

How many others on this board have had their kids do early college?

 

How many posters have done it for more than one kid?

 

How many posters on this board have kids who do early college then get accepted to law school?

 

Certainly, when I was homeschooling and finding my way among the various options,  I would have LOVED to have someone like myself give me advice.

 

When we lived up north in the 90's I knew several kids (unschoolers) who graduated from college before 16.

 

Here I have only known a few; most kids around here go deeper not faster. I am currently tutoring a 12 year old who will probably graduate from high school at 14.

 

In our state dual enrollment begins when the child is a junior  - used to be that 16 was the "age" you had to be but that is no longer specified so whatever age you can hack it and succeed at the placement test will probably work though 13/14 is the age they try to stick to at our local college. Many, many many families here have their high schoolers graduate between 16 and 18 with an AA and transfer into a state uni for the last 2 years. MOST people here do dual enrollment in lieu of high school. So graduating w/a BA/BS from a 4 year at 18 is not unusual. 

 

(To be fair less than half of the kids here go ON to a 4 year college only the local 2 year but you know what I mean, lol.)

 

Georgia

 

 

[8filltheheart]

No that is not true. At a certain point in their life, the kids will have to leave the living room and go out into the world. Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.

Ok, I have been engaging in polite discourse, but now you are getting rather insulting. If you had read my posts in this thread, you would know I have adult kids who are successful. jeepers, our oldest graduated from college cum laude with his chemE degree and has a very successful career. Did he attend college at 10? No. But at 25, he is married, has 3 kids, owns a beautiful home, his wife is a stay at home mom, and he makes a fabulous salary. I do think I have an idea about helping our kids "go out in the world and succeed."

[kiana]

I think I am an expert. How many others here have two kids who have graduated from college in their teens (or even one kid.) Seriously.  HOW MANY OTHERS? 

 

Doing something in theory and doing it in reality are two different things. 

 

There are plenty of people on this board who have (as a matter of fact, one graduated at 16 and is doing very well) and also others who chose not to.

 

Generally it's a good idea on a new board to read a little bit and learn who people are and what the culture of the board is before you jump in and post. 

[TracyP]

Thanks for sharing your perspective, VR. I am considering pursuing early college for my kids. We have okay community colleges, but one of the state universities is top 6 for the degrees my two oldest want to pursue. Assuming my (almost) 9yo and 11yo stick with their current plans, I can see a lot of benefits in going to college early. To look at my oldest for a minute, she is just like me. She already dreams of "getting on with her life." She wants to be a veterinarian and she likes the idea of finishing school at 22/23 rather than 25/26. I think she is capable of doing this, and I could see why it would be a good plan for some kids.

 

But there are other factors to consider. Because MN has a wonderful dual enrollment opportunity (PSEO), she can attend any public college and most private colleges for free as a Jr. and a Sr. With 5 kids and a limited income, this has to be something we take into consideration. This would still be early college, just not as early as your kids. This will likely be the middle ground on which we settle.

 

And then there is this post:

...

We see education not as just a goal toward a degree, but challenging our kids to become independent thinkers who have the opportunity to excel at their own pace and interests and not the pre-defined opportunities in a classroom. It is the joy of homeschooling.

...

I strongly agree with this and want this type of learning to continue for as long as possible.

 

At the end of the day, this will be a joint decision with my kids. I lean toward option 2, and I suspect that my kids will agree. Every family and every kid and every state/country are different. I appreciate hearing your story. Early college is a great option for some families/kids in some states, and I enjoy hearing these success stories.

[wapiti]

I think it takes a very rare person to do something like early college. To my mind, college is the ultimate testing ground for whether you are prepared for life or not. I am strongly in favor of home schooling, but I think that at a certain point the rubber must meet the road. You either go out into the big wide world and prove yourself or you don't. That is all I am saying. Early college is certainly one way of proving you can handle real world problems, and that what you have learned prepares you for what is ahead. All we can do is hope that we have prepared our kids for the launch into independence.

Early college may impress you, but when the student is no longer a student and is, say, 25, no one in the professional world cares. Indeed, youth is often interpreted as inexperience and can be a resume detriment out of the gate.

 

If you don't think attending an ivy was worthwhile, your perspective is grounded in experience of the most valid sort. However, it is also important to note that early college effectively closes the door to admission to undergrad schools of that caliber, for the most part. Maybe such a calculation makes sense for a very bright person headed to grad school, though the wisdom of early college depends on a number of specifics, and you are seeing now that when you post your thoughts in favor of early college on such a public forum, it is both helpful and responsible to include the applicable caveats with relevant details when possible.

 

Maybe you'd like to describe how various factors happened to balance out in favor of early college. Less expensive cost, if that's the case, is one good reason for a family who would otherwise not receive sufficient aid from the other schools that might have been within reach had the student applied closer to the traditional age and with an application that would be naturally stronger due to that extra time.

 

IMO early college is a great way to test the waters and to show what you've got. It certainly has been a confidence building experience for my kids.

Note that early college - as in official undergraduate matriculation - is not the only way to experience college coursework during the teenage years to achieve these ends.

 

About the bar exam, pass rates are not reflective of the law schools themselves but rather the intellectual caliber of the majority of the students who attend them *and/or* the time and priority the student gave to studying that July. Law school is about learning how to think like a lawyer, whereas the bar exam is about rote memorization and regurgitation. I highly recommend bar review for that (and I don't mean the Thursday night kind, though that's fun too :))

[chiguirre]

I really love the way you are all trying to intentionally misconstrue what I said. You are quite disingenuous. I do not have time to talk to those who only want to shake their fists in other people's faces.

We're not intentionally misconstruing what you said. We've hashed this topic out many, many times before you started to post. It's great that your kids are happy with their path, but many posters here would prefer to wait until typical college age and shoot for a highly selective school. It's always a trade off. You can go to a regular college early or an elite college on time. It's extremely rare to go to an elite college early.

 

OTOH, a lot of people do use DE and AP credits to demonstrate academic ability. The problem, of course, is that this completely depends on the resources available in your local area. It depends on whether your local CC is academically sound, has articulation agreements and the reputation of your state flagship university. Not all local schools will allow outside students to sit an AP without charging a hefty proctoring fee. Not all local schools will even order a Latin or European History or Physics C test if they don't offer the corresponding course. So, you are a fount of useful information for CT homeschoolers, but your experience won't help the Texans much.

 

We're an argumentative bunch, it's truly not personal. We just like to debate educational topics and kilts and cupcakes. Do you have an opinion on cupcakes?

[Barbara H]

Read very carefully what Dean Post is saying. She said that someone who graduates from Penn and applies to Penn Law is not given any special consideration. That is not the same thing as saying that legacy status doesn't matter.  In fact, having worked with the Admissions Committee at Penn, I can tell you that some graduate schools at Penn will not accept a Penn grad under any circumstances. They want cross pollination at a different school. 

 

   

I'm not referring to the question early in the interview about Penn grads. I'm referring specially to the question about legacy status for law school applicants.

 

Interviewer:  What about applicants whose parents might have attended Penn Law? Do legacy candidates receive any special preference?

Dean answer: No.

 

That is quite straight forward.

[SeaConquest]

If you graduated from a liberal arts college, and were not early college, you would have been 21 or 22. If you then worked six years for Army Special Ops you would have been 28. And if you followed that up with working overseas that would have added a few more years. How on earth did you do this by age 24?

 

Not that it's really relevant to the conversation, but I went into the Army two days after HS graduation. I was 17. I spent 2 years on active duty, one at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey where I learned 4 years of college level Russian in one year. I began college at 19 and graduated in 3 years with a double major in Russian and PPE (Politics, Philosophy, and Economics) from Claremont McKenna. While at CMC, I was in Army ROTC and served in the Army Reserve for 4 years. I spent my summers interning in DC and deploying to various locations with the Army. I graduated from CMC at 22, spent a year on a Rotary Fellowship at Moscow State University Law School studying comparative constitutional law. I worked for Deloitte Consulting for 2 years as a Business Analyst in a pre-MBA feeder program. I turned down a free MBA at INSEAD in France to study at Stanford Law. Worst decision of my life.

 

UConn is a fine regional law school. I did not want to limit my marketability to a particular region or to a particular type of practice. This turned out to be a prudent decision on my part, as I have practiced all over the country and in a wide variety of industries. I was able to get a job with Lehman Brothers Investment Banking Division and with Top 10 law firms even at the bottom half of my Stanford class -- something which would have been impossible at a regional law school.

[Crimson Wife]

I think I am an expert. How many others here have two kids who have graduated from college in their teens (or even one kid.) Seriously.  HOW MANY OTHERS? 

 

Doing something in theory and doing it in reality are two different things. 

 

Jenny in Florida has, and frankly, she's a lot less arrogant and much more helpful when she posts about it.