Early College

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Well, just add me to the list of negative naysayers.  ;)  But if you read the previous threads about DE/early college you probably already saw all my negativity there.

 

I got my BA a few months after I turned 20. Not sure if that's early enough to make me qualified enough to chime in here for you, nonetheless...

 

A BA at 20 DID NOT give me a head start. I'm in a liberal arts field which requires graduate degrees, and that early bachelors really worked against me. I floundered around for a few years picking up grad credits (and doing the research that would have much much cheaper to have done in undergrad) before finally getting my first MA at 25. After all the talk of "oh, you're so young! so advanced! etc." it was discouraging to struggle in grad studies because, yes, I did NOT have the experience and opportunities under my belt to move into an MA/PhD program.

 

I ended up starting DE at 15 simply because my mother didn't really know what to do with me, and CC is better than that dumb godless stupid sex-crazed public school, no? And homeschooled students are smarter savvier and better than all that, no? LOL. smh. Really, my public high school classes would have been better for me. In CC, let's see, my Comp 101 class read The Bluest Eye as the lit choice, and many of my classmates, despite taking that class for the 3rd or 4th time, really struggled to pass. The Soc 101 class was a joke. The prof talked about his grandkids the whole time, and when someone piped up to ask if that would be on the test, he told us to take out our textbooks and highlight certain sentences, because he just used the tests that came with the book, and those sentences were the answers.

 

My local high school, on the other hand, taught Latin, had good solid science and math classes, and the college-prep English classes read actual literature with much less graphic sexual content.

 

It's great if your local CC is a high quality one, and doesn't have worthless classes like the ones I experienced. And it's great if you help other homeschoolers in your area take advantage of that opportunity. But to say across the board that CC is best and high schools are worthless wastes of time is incredibly naive.

 

Furthermore, I am disturbed by the fact that you hand-waved away the possibility of young students getting low grades, and hence lower college (and high school) GPA's. When first applying to college (post high school graduation) the fact that my B's and C were earned when I was 15 or 16 were obvious. But when I applied to grad schools and have an application packet some 100 pages thick with multiple transcripts (I dumped that worthless CC and went further out of my way to a state Uni to finish up my DE, and then my private LAC I graduated from) that fact is quite a bit less obvious. And I believe many of my initial applications to MA/PhD programs were rejected because of it. And, like others said, even if they did put the pieces together (since I did try to point out that those classes were DE) admissions committees don't really care. They have way too many qualified applicants to take a chance on someone who couldn't hack a class, even if it was way outside the major, or was distance learning, or was nearly ten years prior, or whatever. They look for reasons to reject, and that gives them an easy reject. I had to take out lots of student loans to earn credentials that put a band-aid over those marks. Whatever money was "saved" by shaving two years off my BA was paid for many times over in the end.

 

If you can caution other homeschooling parents about this and other dangers of DE, please do! But so far I haven't seen you acknowledge any of these dangers, and that makes me very nervous. Maybe these things are just obvious to you, but they were not at all obvious to my parents, whose highest level of education was associates degrees earned at the CC with terrible classes.

 

Also, yes, college seems to be today's equivalent of high school, but not everywhere. There are a handful of fantastic high schools out there (most private, some public) that offer a superior education to some colleges. The "elite" (and other) colleges know this, and they select for those students. One of my great regrets is that, though I was fully capable, I was not offered the high school education I should have/could have had and really would have developed my abilities. My intention with my own children is to give them a rich and full education, and not short-change them by chasing down a piece of paper at the earliest possible moment.

 

Seriously, before you go around the internet saying that your way is the Best of All Possible Worlds I think you should wait until your kids are at least 30, and then ask them to give you a brutally honest assessment of their own education. 

 

You are a good example of someone who either cannot read for content or who likes to put words in other people's mouths. I did not say half of the things you attributed to me, and I am not going to dignify your ramble into the existential aether with a reply. You are only TECHNICALLY an early college student, as I was TECHNICALLY an early college student. To claim your experience demonstrates what early college students will go through is both disingenuous and absurd. As I said, we had about 40 families following in our footsteps, and although I lost track of most of them, no one has come back to me complaining about the results. Perhaps your bad experience had to do with you, and not with early college. I personally know of several CC students who transferred to Ivy Schools, specifically Brown  and Cornell.

 

http://www.communitycollegesuccess.com/2012/06/from-community-college-to-ivy-league.html

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I'm back!  Did you miss  me? It is so hard to be 17 hours off, because I am sleeping when everyone else is talking!

 

Vegesauras, thanks so much for such a detailed response.  It really helped me see how your kids kind of slid into things - a few more classes each year adding up to an AA that then transferred to a 4 year.  You are absolutely right that that kind of detail in no way informs my son's entrance over here.  I actually will have no trouble getting him in, and like I said we can do it next year if need be.  So this conversation is very important to me as I have to decide by December if we will walk this path. We have an exam system here, so my son needs to do well in 5 12th-grade exams (which are somewhere between the SAT2 and AP level) and given his major he only has to *pass* the 11th grade (SAT2) english exam. We can do this next year when he is in 9th grade.  Then off he goes, and I wave good bye with a tear in my eye. 

 

So I don't need your help with getting him in -- I've got that covered.  What I need help with is the harder soul-searching question of 'should I?'  I know it is difficult on a public board to put out there all the options that you considered and their pros and cons, but I would really appreciate it if you would. 

 

Also because you are new to the board, let me give you a bit of background about me so that we can actually talk as I do think your experience would help me think through our options.  I am an American who emigrated *out* of America 19 years ago.  We did this for many reasons, but one of them was for lifestyle, as NZ is a less-competitive, less-economically-diversified, slower-moving society.  This has had its pros and cons, and the biggest con right now is the unexpected talent my ds has in maths.  NZ may just be too small for him, but that is another story. In the 1990s I attended an ivy league university in America and have a PhD in the sciences.  My family (including my parents, 3 sisters, and their spouses) have 7 PhDs, 2 MDs, 1 Dmin, and untold number of masters.  4 of my family members are currently professors in universities in America. My sister was the valedictorian of an ivy league at age 20 and finished her EE PhD at age 24 *with* a patent on the MRI. So although I live in NZ, I 'know' the American system, have seen early admission, and have considered my boy attending an American university.  This sounds like a big brag-athon, but it is not.  At some point it is just fact that my family is highly educated and thinks *hard* about the best way to help our children.  Clearly yours is the same.

 

I am sincere is wishing to hear about your struggles to decide the correct path for your children.  I know you came to the board offering help on how to get in at a young age, but what I think a lot of us need is help with the more nebulous and difficult question of whether we *should* pursue this path.  All of us here are trying to do what is best for our children, but defining 'best' is often very difficult. 

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

Ruth,

 

I really appreciate your long explanation of both your family's background and your clarification of what you are looking for from me.  I hope I can be of help. By the way, if there are things that you do not want to post on a public board, contact me for a private conversation as many people already have. 

 

It seems to me that your sister who was Valedictorian of an Ivy University at age 20 is the person you should be seeking advice from. She probably is very familiar with your family and can give you more precise information than I can.

 

Anyway, you very clearly stated that you want to know what issues we struggled with as a family before we chose the path we did.  Let me see if I can answer that.

 

Both I and my wife have advanced degrees, I would prefer not to say what mine is, but it is at the Doctorate Level. We both are extremely focused on education. We both felt that the best thing we could do for our children was to give them the best start possible, i.e., the best education possible. Although I was born dirt poor, and I had a full scholarship to Penn,  and I am by no means poor now, and the fact that we had enough money for just about every conceivable option was important in our decision making process. 

 

In fact we started home schooling only after trying both public and private schools, which we found to be clones of each other, with the same educrats everywhere. For that reason we rejected the private school route. In Connecticut we had no high school like Bronx Science, which might have been a solution to what we were looking for if it had been available, but it wasn't. After experiencing extreme frustration trying to find something in the marketplace that met our needs, we finally decided that there was nothing, and we decided to to it ourselves. My wife had the luxury of being able to stay at home full time to teach, to chauffeur the kids to what ever classes or activities that were available in the community and for home schoolers. We also had the luxury of being able to hire tutors, buy a piano and take piano lessons, set up classes at our house for our kids and other homeschoolers with hired tutors, etc. In other words we were intelligent enough to figure out what was needed and we had the wherewithal to do it.

 

At the beginning, there really wasn't much in the way of struggling about the decision we made. We backed into home schooling. One might say we were forced into it. But as we continued  along that path, it became obvious to us that there were certain things that we could not teach. Chemistry for example. Also subjects we knew very little about. Geology for example. We heard from another home schooler in our group, who was very enterprising, and she had worked with the Administration at Tunxis Community College to set up a Saturday French Class for anyone who wanted it, but the timing of which would greatly benefit the homeschooling community. Taking the class did not require any kind of admission test, one merely had to sign up and write a check. 

 

At the start, I held the usual stereotypical beliefs about community colleges, i.e., that they were glorified high schools. I took the French class with my son (my daughter was only about 8 then.) It so happens I lived in Paris for three years and my French was very good. From day one I could converse with the instructor, who was also from the Paris Region, and I quickly saw that she was unlike a lot of language teachers in this country, i.e., Americans who spent a year abroad and who spoke whatever language they taught with a heavy American accent. Our French teacher had a perfect Parisian accent. In learning a language, this is incredibly important. Anyway, my son took two years of French at Tunxis, and eventually branched out to out courses like Earth Science. At the beginning I took the courses with him, and I was shocked at how good they were. This was not a glorified high school.

 

When she was ten my daughter started at Tunxis with a photography course. This broke her in to the idea of being at a school, which was very important. The rules were different from the home school. After about two years, I guess the decision you are interested in had to be made.

 

My kids by that point had taken several courses at Tunxis. I managed to convince Tunxis to start a Latin Class, which they did and which IMO was quite good. About half the students in it were home schoolers. Anyway, at some point about halfway through the Tunxis experience, we did consider other options.

 

We looked at Bard College at Simons Rock.

 

http://simons-rock.edu/

 

This was a school that specialized in early college students. We talked with the admissions people there and my son interviewed with them. We did not apply, however, but they told us to apply and that we would likely get a merit scholarship.

 

We considered this strongly, and came back to Simons Rock several times to just look around and talk to the students to get a feel for the place. Sadly, we were greatly impressed by the catalogue, but it seemed that many of the wonderful courses in the catalogue were in actuality only in the catalogue, and were seldom, if ever taught. So we gave up on Simons Rock.

 

As I mentioned previously, my son was taking advantage of free courses at Trinity College in Hartford, which at the time was a very highly ranked liberal arts college. He was taking advanced Latin and Greek. He applied to Trinity college as a transfer and was conditionally accepted. The condition? We could not apply for scholarships. This was all by word of mouth, since I think there was something here that violated their own policy. Anyway, Trinity cost about $50,000 per year at the time. It was never clear how many of the Tunxis  courses would transfer, and this was something we would not find out until he had matriculated. 

 

Meanwhile, we also investigated UConn, which was relatively clear about what would transfer there from Tunxis. I haven't mentioned this yet, but UConn has a very interesting Honor's Program. 

 

http://honors.uconn.edu/prospective-students/admission/

 

http://today.uconn.edu/blog/2013/08/uconns-incoming-freshmen-bring-a-wealth-of-academic-talent-high-aspirations/

 

UConn's honors program had a demographic that was similar to Ivy League Schools. Please read links above. UConn however does not have an Ivy League price tag.

 

There really was no choice. My son was accepted into the Honors program, and although he entered UConn as a Junior, we requested that he live in the Freshman Honors Dorm, Buckley. They did what we asked. My son had a fantastic time among peers who were only a little older than him, and he was big enough so no one really asked his age. He graduated in two years and was accepted at UConn Law which we just considered a continuing part of his education. 

 

One word about my Alma Mater, Penn.  Sadly, neither of my kids were interested. I am reasonably sure that both could have gotten in, since at the time, I had been very active in the alumni network for years, and had contributed to the school somewhat generously.  Had they been interested, I would have been delighted. 

 

Anyway, I think I have outlined the issues that I struggled with. At no time were we ever overwhelmed with concern about the issue of top ten school vs  community college/ state college transfer. One of the reasons was the Honors program at UConn. This is a fantastic program that I cannot say too much good about. And financially, the UConn option trumped everything. In addition, UConn does give preference to its own students at their professional schools. 

 

Was entering at top school ever a major consideration for us? For me,yes. For the kids, no.Since they were the ones attending, I guess their opinion outweighed mine.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Sarah didn't claim that early college students will have the same experience, she merely shared her experience and held it up as something people may want to consider before deciding early college is the best option. In light of your first two sentences, that is a very interesting comment.

 

Just why are you communicating with posters in such an aggressive, hostile manner? Do you think that encourages people to take your experience — which might well be valuable — seriously?

 

 

Why is it okay when other people take what I say and twist it, but when I object to that it is hostile?

 

Here are some of the false and twisted statements Sarah made:

 

.... But to say across the board that CC is best and high schools are worthless wastes of time is incredibly naive.

 

I never said that. 

 

 

Furthermore, I am disturbed by the fact that you hand-waved away the possibility of young students getting low grades, and hence lower college (and high school) GPA's.

 

I never did that.

 

 Whatever money was "saved" by shaving two years off my BA was paid for many times over in the end.

 

Her experience, not mine.

 

Also, yes, college seems to be today's equivalent of high school, but not everywhere. There are a handful of fantastic high schools out there (most private, some public) that offer a superior education to some colleges.

 

Contrary to her implication that I did not know about good high schools, I had specifically praised Bronx Science, Central High and Girls High of Philadelphia  many times.  

 

My intention with my own children is to give them a rich and full education, and not short-change them by chasing down a piece of paper at the earliest possible moment.

 

Good for her. I said many times that education was my primary goal, not a "piece of paper."  Again, she makes up stuff or takes things out of context that need to be left in context.

 

Seriously, before you go around the internet saying that your way is the Best of All Possible Worlds I think you should wait until your kids are at least 30, and then ask them to give you a brutally honest assessment of their own education. 

 

I will give her $1,000 if she can show me where I said "my way is the best of  all possible worlds." I am really sick of some people on this board who simply cannot read, or who won't take the time to do so. I am sick of answering the same questions over and over and having lazy people who haven't actually taken the time to read what I have said tell me what I have said. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

But - and this has also been discussed may times on this forum - getting accepted to an elite university, at any age, does not matter at all unless you are poor enough or rich enough to attend. If the finances aren't there, and still won't be when a child is 18, then it would behoove the parents to have some other plans in place.

 

Butler, you have said a mouthful!

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Elite universities do indeed have very generous financial aid for low-to-moderate income families. If your family is in the <$75k range, absolutely consider applying to Ivy caliber schools. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bright kids whose families make too high an income on paper to get need-based aid but not enough to actually afford tuition :-(

 

 

I second that.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Ivy league schools calculate academic indexes for their recruited students based on gpa, SAT I and SAT II scores. [For a point of reference average AIs of accepted athletes are usually still made up of composites based on top 10% ranking, 4.0 gpa, SAT I &II all 700 or higher.] Our daughter came very close to maxing out the academic index because she had a high gpa, and did very well on her SAT I and SAT II tests.  In contrast, being a professional athlete in the sport she is currently participating in in college is quite far off our daughter's radar.  She will likely end up in either a MD or MD/PhD program in another three years. She selected her undergraduate university because she felt it was the best fit for her based on the academic and athletic opportunities.  It didn't end up being an Ivy [although many would consider it a better school than the the Ivy she was most interested in] but it was the place she felt was the best fit for her.  She had a great first year, made dean's list, got valuable varsity experience in her sport including NCAA tournament play, and already has gotten involved in research on campus. So far her sophomore year is going well both academically and athletically and she continues to believe she is where she belongs.  Because we are not paying for her undergraduate degree she will be able to use that money for medical school if she opts not to go the MD/PhD route so I hope that takes some of the financial pressure off her.

 

As far as the legacy issue, I think we will just have to agree to disagree.  

 

As I have said, if the kid doesn't care about the Ivy League, or other name college, then why apply. It sounds like she is doing very well. Isn't that all that counts?  Just out of curiosity, she is not in Women's Basketball, is she? That is UConn's big sport.

 

As for the legacy issue, I was in the Alumni Network of the University of Pennsylvania for many years. I have a good sense of how things work.  Legacy is a nuanced attribute which can sometimes get you in and sometimes won't help you.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I believe you may want to consider reading what you have said on this thread, including the tone you have used, again.

 

I am pretty aware of what I said. and as I offered above, I will give her (or you) $1,000 if you can show me where I said that "Community College is the best of all possible worlds."

 

Apparently you and others on this board have a shameless double standard. If you agree with what someone is saying you pat them on the back. If you disagree you object to their "tone"  and make up stuff about them. 

 

I do not want any part of that. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I'm confused as to why getting a job would not be an issue. Even if the child comes from a very wealthy family, in my experience, most of those family patriarchs and matriarchs have enough of a work ethic that they feel subsidizing their unemployed grandchildren through their twenties and thirties would be doing them a large disservice.

 

In my kids' case it is not an issue because they are already working in a law firm and have jobs guaranteed. I am not going to elaborate on this.

 

 

I actually don't see how early college will pave the way into top US schools because usually these schools do not have transfer agreements and the community college often is not viewed as favorable.

 

I posted below an article on transferring from a community college to an Ivy League college. You may want to read it.

 

To answer your question, our daughter did get 800 on the mathematics section of the SAT I and came close on the critical reading and writing portions.  She also achieved 800 scores on several of her SAT II subject tests.

 

That is truly wonderful. It should get her considered anywhere.

 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I can answer this.  So far I've had four homeschool graduates.  Two went to Harvard and two are currently at Princeton.

We did do DE starting in 9th grade, but I wouldn't call it "Early College."  We never intended for our children to finish their BAs until the normal age.  Although our kids were very advanced (some did AP Calc BC in 9th grade, for example), we used the whole four years of high school to let them grow up before heading off to college.  They were  able to complete an in-depth research project that they could enter in national competitions, they've had journal publications, they've interned in labs at NIH, they've done numerous AP tests, they've developed relationships with researchers who could write them great recommendations, and yes, they've gotten close to perfect scores on all their standardized tests.  Staying in high school those four years is what has given our kids that "something special" they need to get into top schools where they've had amazing experiences and have been able to interact with the best and brightest students from all over the world.  

 

Yeah, we could have rushed them through and transferred their credits to a mediocre state school and saved some money, but would that have been better for our kids?

 

 

 I don't know. I guess that is a question the kids have to answer.

 

 Your kids sound fantastic. They are obviously doing great, but I don't think I would give credit to the public schools for that.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I can answer this.  So far I've had four homeschool graduates.  Two went to Harvard and two are currently at Princeton.

We did do DE starting in 9th grade, but I wouldn't call it "Early College."  We never intended for our children to finish their BAs until the normal age.  Although our kids were very advanced (some did AP Calc BC in 9th grade, for example), we used the whole four years of high school to let them grow up before heading off to college.  They were  able to complete an in-depth research project that they could enter in national competitions, they've had journal publications, they've interned in labs at NIH, they've done numerous AP tests, they've developed relationships with researchers who could write them great recommendations, and yes, they've gotten close to perfect scores on all their standardized tests.  Staying in high school those four years is what has given our kids that "something special" they need to get into top schools where they've had amazing experiences and have been able to interact with the best and brightest students from all over the world.  

 

Yeah, we could have rushed them through and transferred their credits to a mediocre state school and saved some money, but would that have been better for our kids?

 

 

 I don't know. I guess that is a question the kids have to answer.

 

 Your kids sound fantastic. They are obviously doing great, but I don't think I would give credit to the public schools for that.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I've had 4 attend college early.  My HS Senior is currently taking 21 credits.  My College girl is being recruited by a prestigious California school for an MD/PhD program when she graduates.  We didn't graduate them until the traditional age because all so far have attended (or will attend) University for free thanks to National Merit scholarships that they probably wouldn't have been ready to earn had we graduated them at 14, 15 or 16. Instead, they've had time to take grad courses and law courses during undergrad, or to dual major in demanding degree programs. I'm happy to answer any questions I run across that are within my area of experience, but I would never presume to call myself an expert.  I only know my kids and my area. As a family we've moved around enough to know that we are so fortunate to have full access to our high quality Community College. 

 

There are many posters on here who have early college students.  Stick around and we'll come out of the woodwork.

 

 

Yes a few have. Very few, however, have given as detailed a story as I have. 

 

I agree with you that if getting something like a merit scholarship was of critical importance to you, early college might not have been a great choice.

 

Bytheway, I would consider you an expert, not in early college obviously, since no one in your family seems to have done that, but in preparing kids for college. Not at all a trivial skill.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

My 18yo started dual enrollment classes at 16, which I don't consider "early college."  However, my 12yo is a different ball of wax.  We are considering several options for him, including the Early Entrance Program at the University of Washington as well as dual enrollment at the local CC at 14yo.

 

What really bugs me about this whole thing is that there doesn't seem to be any room for a student to attempt to challenge himself (through college coursework) and fail (or get a C).  It's like that is a career ending move.  Really?  College/grad school admissions folks can't see that a single C on a dual enrolled (or early entrance or even regular entrance) kid's transcript isn't the end of the world?  That it might, in fact, have been a learning experience?

 

My 18yo has a C in calculus on his CC transcript.  He screwed up and didn't study enough.  He is applying to small- to medium sized selective engineering schools that he'd be perfect for.  He has mostly As and a smattering of Bs otherwise, and his ACT score was a 32.  He's a good student who made a mistake.  

 

I also have a hard time believing that only people who go to the top ten (or whatever) colleges are going to get jobs in their field.  Really?

 

I don't know if you are talking to me or if you are not, but I never said that.  I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not talking to me.

 

However, what I did was post an article about the huge number of recent college grads who were taking jobs that do not require a bachelor's degree.

 

I also posted some average starting salaries from several schools which I believe shows that the grads from better known schools get higher salaries than the grads from lesser known schools.

 

But I certainly never said what you are claiming, i.e., that only people who go to the top ten (or whatever) colleges are going to get jobs in their field.  If you find out who said that would you let me know?

[Vegesaurus Rex]

NM 

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Susan Wise Bauer
Unnecessarily aggressive. Please read community guidelines before posting again.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

No, you did not word things like that verbatim, but you did imply that not pursuing early college would be doing children a disservice, if they were intellectually and developmentally capable of it. Isn't that correct? Am I misunderstanding you?

 

Also, I did not voice any opinions on the actual topic of early college and nothing I wrote implied I agreed with anyone. I simply pointed out that the way in which you choose to word things is not helpful. As soon as someone says something you believe you disagree with, your reply sounds hostile, something that may or may not be intentional. If it isn't intentional, you may like to work on that. Shouldn't experts be able to engage in conversation in a manner that acknowledges all aspects of a choice, without verbally attacking people? 

 

I live in Europe. Early college attendance in the US is probably not a topic that will ever affect me or my children personally, though I'd be interested in learning more about how foreign students can enter college in the US, early or otherwise. What I do know is that this is an immensely complex topic, many factors should be considered during the decision-making process, every individual has different factors to consider, and the consequences of a decision may not become clear until much, much later. 

 

I think there is a real danger in paraphrasing people for rhetorical emphasis. You are doing everyone a disservice by falsifying what they actually said, and making up something that is absurd to put in their mouth. This board seems to be overwhelmed with the idea that this is the proper way to rebut an idea one does not like. Well, trust me, it isn't. Nor did I imply that not pursuing early college might be doing a child a disservice. What I actually said was, if the child has :

1. the intelligence,

2. the maturity 

3. the focus 

4. the desire to do early college 

 

then  give  it a try. 

 

There are answers to that  of course, such as "We can't afford it." "We believe the child will be better served with a different approach," etc. 

 

An intelligent way to respond to this would be to quote it accurately and then state your own reasons why you disagree. The correct way is not to make up opinions to attribute to the author of the statement, to misquote him,. or simply to go on a rant over something he never said.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Did you say this?

 

 

Did you then add this?

 

 

 

Some people were making the point that there is more to consider than whether the kid is bright, has a reasonable amount of maturity and focus, and wants to go to college early.

 

 

Fine then that is what they should address. They should not make up things that I supposedly said. 

[EKS]

I don't know if you are talking to me or if you are not, but I never said that.  I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not talking to me.

 

However, what I did was post an article about the huge number of recent college grads who were taking jobs that do not require a bachelor's degree.

 

I also posted some average starting salaries from several schools which I believe shows that the grads from better known schools get higher salaries than the grads from lesser known schools.

 

But I certainly never said what you are claiming, i.e., that only people who go to the top ten (or whatever) colleges are going to get jobs in their field.  If you find out who said that would you let me know?

 

I wasn't talking to anyone specifically.  I was ranting about the idea that the only schools worth going to in terms of job prospects and intellectual stimulation are the highly selective ones (which has been stated in this thread) and that getting a C in a dual enrollment class is the end of the world as far as college/grad school admissions is concerned (which has also been stated in this thread).  For all I know both of those things are true.  

 

I am frustrated because I feel as though there are no good options for my 12yo.  

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Actually, paraphrasing can be an extremely useful tool when trying to check whether you understood what someone else was trying to get across correctly (particularly when that person is expressing themselves in an ambiguous manner). 

 

Indeed your statement above verifies that you did say what I thought you said, though you then add that you do think believing a child can be better served with a different approach is a possible answer. The latter is ALL many people here were trying to get across, I think — early college may be a great approach, or it may not be. This depends on the individual circumstances of families considering the option. 

 

 

Why indeed should I rebut my own statement?

 

I don't think that I ever represented here that what I was saying was a priori correct, or was an irrefutable truth. I thought I went to a great deal of trouble to explain that this was my opinion and my experience.  I have no objection to being called upon to defend what I believe. I do object to being called upon to defend idiotic statements I never made and being told that those idiocies were what "I was implying."

 

I strongly suggest that anyone who thinks I (or anyone else) is implying something simply ask them if that is what they are implying, rather than go off on a rant about how stupid or arrogant the supposed author of the statement is.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I wasn't talking to anyone specifically.  I was ranting about the idea that the only schools worth going to in terms of job prospects and intellectual stimulation are the highly selective ones (which has been stated in this thread) and that getting a C in a dual enrollment class is the end of the world as far as college/grad school admissions is concerned (which has also been stated in this thread).  For all I know both of those things are true.  

 

I am frustrated because I feel as though there are no good options for my 12yo.  

 

First of all, I did not say anything like that. I don't know if you are aware but my kids have gone to the University of Connecticut and UConn Law School. UConn is considered the 19th best public University, the (I think) 52nd best  university overall, and it s law school according to what others here have posted seems to be about the 32nd most selective in the country. 

 

UConn, to the best of my knowledge is not in the top ten in anything, although, I could be wrong. 

 

Nonetheless, UConn adequately served the needs of my family. We are not in a financial bracket that would ever get need based aid, and not going through high school eliminated the possibility of any of the normal merit based scholarships. Ergo, I pay full freight.

 

Also, I strongly disagree with the idea that getting a "C" in a Community College or college course will destroy your chances of ever getting into an Ivy or better school. Having been in the alumni network of an Ivy league school, I know that is not true. 

 

There are plenty of good options for your 12 year old. Simply make a list of goals and resources. Make another list of requirements for each option.  Then work out the best option. 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I do not believe anyone here has done that, though paraphrasing certainly happened and misinterpretations may also have occurred. 

 

 

I am sorry, but no one here has asked me, "Is this what you are implying?" 

 

No, they just go ahead and tell me what I am implying, and 90% of the time they are wrong. I do not have time to waste on that nonsense.

[EKS]

First of all, I did not say anything like that.

 

 

I know--this isn't about you.  

[snowbeltmom]

I have been a member of this community for almost 4 years and never bothered to learn about all the features this website offers.  Can someone tell me how to use the Ignore feature?

Thanks.

[SarahW]

My 18yo started dual enrollment classes at 16, which I don't consider "early college."  However, my 12yo is a different ball of wax.  We are considering several options for him, including the Early Entrance Program at the University of Washington as well as dual enrollment at the local CC at 14yo.

 

What really bugs me about this whole thing is that there doesn't seem to be any room for a student to attempt to challenge himself (through college coursework) and fail (or get a C).  It's like that is a career ending move.  Really?  College/grad school admissions folks can't see that a single C on a dual enrolled (or early entrance or even regular entrance) kid's transcript isn't the end of the world?  That it might, in fact, have been a learning experience?

 

My 18yo has a C in calculus on his CC transcript.  He screwed up and didn't study enough.  He is applying to small- to medium sized selective engineering schools that he'd be perfect for.  He has mostly As and a smattering of Bs otherwise, and his ACT score was a 32.  He's a good student who made a mistake.  

 

I also have a hard time believing that only people who go to the top ten (or whatever) colleges are going to get jobs in their field.  Really?

 

 

I think low DE grades should get the band-aid treatment as quickly and as awesomely as possible. Was his ACT math score in the 33-36 range? Take tests, AP, SAT2, anything that covers Calc, and get awesome scores. Do math competitions. Get a job in the tutoring center tutoring Calc. Anything. All of the above. As soon as possible. Anything that shouts/yells/SCREAMS I am totally awesome at Calculus!!! If grad school is in the future keep piling on the band-aids through undergrad. He should act like he has something to prove, and prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

No, it's not the end of the world. But the grade won't disappear, so it's better to just own up to it and then disprove it. It's terrible, but higher education doesn't have a lot of grace these days (unless you're a cash-paying student, but that's another issue).

 

My C came in French 1. The CC was so lame that it was a Distance Ed class taught by the German professor. There were other problems with it, but to tell of my own experience is nothing but an existential screed, no? (lol). After that I did French 1 at the high school, which was okay, but I didn't continue with French after that year. What I should have done  was continue to take French as much as possible. Maybe even enrolling in French again at the State Uni and working my tail off to get A's in advanced courses. But I was also working full time because my parents couldn't pay tuition (which is a part of the reason I am TECHNICALLY not qualified to comment about this, I guess) so I really wasn't able to do that. I have banged my head repeatedly against French ever since (because I actually do need to know it a bit). Which is why I say, overcome the mistake, and do it hastily.

 

Oh, and I'm not picking on your kid(s) in particular. This is my advice to all.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Click on your username, go to edit profile/my settings, ignore preferences...

 

I'm on my phone, sorry for the brevity.

[EKS]

I think low DE grades should get the band-aid treatment as quickly and as awesomely as possible. Was his ACT math score in the 33-36 range? Take tests, AP, SAT2, anything that covers Calc, and get awesome scores. Do math competitions. Get a job in the tutoring center tutoring Calc. Anything. All of the above. As soon as possible. Anything that shouts/yells/SCREAMS I am totally awesome at Calculus!!! If grad school is in the future keep piling on the band-aids through undergrad. He should act like he has something to prove, and prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

None of those tests test calculus.  And he is *not* totally awesome at calculus.  The best thing that could happen to him as far as calculus is concerned is to take it again at whatever 4 year school he attends.   

[1053]

I have been a member of this community for almost 4 years and never bothered to learn about all the features this website offers.  Can someone tell me how to use the Ignore feature?

Thanks.

 

I am new this forum (though not new to forums), and am looking forward to learning a lot about homeschooling our advanced kids. Your comment actually makes me feel optimistic that this OP/thread is a very rare abberation for this forum.

 

[Crimson Wife]

  I personally know of several CC students who transferred to Ivy Schools, specifically Brown  and Cornell.

 

http://www.communitycollegesuccess.com/2012/06/from-community-college-to-ivy-league.html

 

The elite colleges in general use CC transfers as a way of bumping up their diversity. A white, upper-middle-class girl who is not a first generation college student like my DD is not going to get a CC transfer slot to an Ivy caliber school.

 

Now our state's flagship university *DOES* take a fair number of CC transfers, and it's actually easier to get accepted as a transfer than as a freshman applicant (26% vs. 21%). That is a realistic option for her and one that I've encouraged. She's not interested because UC Berkeley doesn't offer the Communicative Disorders major. It does offer a Cognitive Science major that could be done with a concentration in language acquisition, but she's turned off by the math prerequisites (calculus & discrete math vs. only college algebra & stats for the Communicative Disorders major at Cal State).

[8filltheheart]

I wasn't talking to anyone specifically. I was ranting about the idea that the only schools worth going to in terms of job prospects and intellectual stimulation are the highly selective ones (which has been stated in this thread) and that getting a C in a dual enrollment class is the end of the world as far as college/grad school admissions is concerned (which has also been stated in this thread). For all I know both of those things are true.

 

I am frustrated because I feel as though there are no good options for my 12yo.

I'm on my phone, sorry this is brief.

 

Yes, the C in calculus probably does destroy his chances at a tippy top competitive school, but it most definitely does not ruin his opportunities for a great college career or future career.

 

We cannot afford our efc, so schools wo merit aid are cost prohibitive. Our kids have thrived at their no name schools. Ds loves the research honors program he is in. Is he being challenged like he would be at MIT? No. He made a 100 on his last circuits exam. But, he is excelling where he is and making the most of every opportunity. I have no qualms he will achieve his long term objectives.

[chiguirre]

The elite colleges in general use CC transfers as a way of bumping up their diversity. A white, upper-middle-class girl who is not a first generation college student like my DD is not going to get a CC transfer slot to an Ivy caliber school.

 

Now our state's flagship university *DOES* take a fair number of CC transfers, and it's actually easier to get accepted as a transfer than as a freshman applicant (26% vs. 21%). That is a realistic option for her and one that I've encouraged. She's not interested because UC Berkeley doesn't offer the Communicative Disorders major. It does offer a Cognitive Science major that could be done with a concentration in language acquisition, but she's turned off by the math prerequisites (calculus & discrete math vs. only college algebra & stats for the Communicative Disorders major at Cal State).

The difference in price is a very strong consideration between choosing a state flagship versus an elite college. UT Austin is very highly ranked. It's only 11 spots below Penn (my alma mater) on the world ranking Laura Corin posted recently on the College Board. I will absolutely encourage Trinqueta to go to McCombs instead of Wharton undergrad if she continues to shoot for business as an undergrad major. Why would we pay almost 3 times as much for such a small bump in ranking? Plus, you can fulfill most of the general education requirements by dual enrolling in high school, so it's easier to add a liberal arts major to your business studies. We get 4 classes tuition free as a hs Junior and Senior and can take more classes paying the extremely affordable in-district rates. DE is less expensive than enrolling in PA Homeschoolers or the WTM Academy and you don't have the stress of having everything ride on a single AP exam. That's a great deal all around.

 

But, and it's a big but, not all state flagships are as highly ranked as UC Berkeley and UT Austin. If we were in a different state, I might very well tell T to shoot for Penn. There are places where CC tuition is really steep and PA Homeschoolers/AP test is the only feasible option if you can't self study. There are places where the CC is an academic slag heap. You have to weigh your local factors and ask around IRL to see what is the best option for you. Unfortunately, this is very much a local issue, so there's no one clear cut answer.

[SeaConquest]

Does anyone know how Canadian universities view college credits earned through DE? Admittedly, a loooooong way off, but I'm keeping my kids' dual citizenship in my hip pocket as an option. McGill is quite cheap for Canadian residents when compared to a comparable U.S. private school of its calibre.

[obsidian]

Alright, so I've been reading along, though not replying. Vegesaurus Rex, the issue is that you proclaim yourself as an expert, say you don't mind people disagreeing with you, but then attack those who disagree. Paraphrasing is not misconstruing. If everyone is getting the same idea from your post, and you feel that's an incorrect idea, usually that means it's time for you to look at how you're communicating.

 

I think I can consider myself an expert on early college. 

I think I am an expert. How many others here have two kids who have graduated from college in their teens (or even one kid.) Seriously.  HOW MANY OTHERS? 

 

Doing something in theory and doing it in reality are two different things. 

By the way, I don't mind if you or anyone else disagrees with me. I am speaking from my experience and others experience might be different or lead to different conclusions. 

 

I really love the way you are all trying to intentionally misconstrue what I said. You are quite disingenuous. I do not have time to talk to those who only want to shake their fists in other people's faces. 

No that is not true. At a certain point in their life, the kids will have to leave the living room and go out into the world. Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.

I am withdrawing my offer to help, since you people know everything. 

 

I have never seen such a bunch of nit picking overly sensitive people in my life.

I am not propagating misinformation.  It is you who do not know what you are talking about. 

 

First of all, there is no such thing as a "History BA from Wharton."  Such a creature does not exist, and never has.  I suggest you Google Wharton then come back and apologize for your misinformation. 

 

Second, I would be interested in seeing statistics from whatever four year university you are talking about showing that the AVERAGE  starting salary for all subjects at that University is $60,000.

 

This is exactly the kind of post that I would normally ignore. And I will in the future.

You are a good example of someone who either cannot read for content or who likes to put words in other people's mouths. I did not say half of the things you attributed to me, and I am not going to dignify your ramble into the existential aether with a reply. You are only TECHNICALLY an early college student, as I was TECHNICALLY an early college student. To claim your experience demonstrates what early college students will go through is both disingenuous and absurd. As I said, we had about 40 families following in our footsteps, and although I lost track of most of them, no one has come back to me complaining about the results. 

[SarahW]

None of those tests test calculus.  And he is *not* totally awesome at calculus.  The best thing that could happen to him as far as calculus is concerned is to take it again at whatever 4 year school he attends.   

 

 

AP and CLEP have calc tests. Good math scores on other tests show  that he is now capable of advanced math. I believe you that the C was an oops  but he now has to prove that it was an oops. And that if given another opportunity (at the 4-year school) he won't have another oops. That's all. Admission folks don't like to be nervous. Assuage them with every thing available.  :)

[Crimson Wife]

As homeschoolers, most of us are leery of "one size fits all" statements when it comes to education.

 

What may be the best option for my oldest child may not be for my second child. His area of interest (robotics engineering) is one where the resources of a top engineering school like MIT, Stanford, or Carnegie Mellon really would make a big difference. Though UC Santa Cruz does have a lab working on a robotic eye, which he thinks is super-cool. Unless something changes dramatically in the next few years, I don't see early college entrance as being the best option for him. Robotics engineering is also a field where he is likely to earn a higher income than speech & language pathology, so if he needs to take out student loans, there's less concern about affording the payments.There are also more merit scholarships available for STEM students, like through the First Robotics program. He also loves the military so I could see him deciding to do Navy ROTC, whereas my oldest would not want to go that route.

[SarahW]

 

 

I am frustrated because I feel as though there are no good options for my 12yo.  

 

Just wanted to come back to this to try to ease your frustration. Whether or not your 12yo is ready for college-level work is something only the two of you can answer. But if you want to "play safe" my advice is to only move on to college when he has already completed the high school equivalent. A good high school equivalent, I should hurry on to add.

 

I think this is where I (and others) run into trouble with DE - treating it like a buffet-style high school. This puts the student "behind" right from the start. I totally understand the temptation of free/cheap all-in-one outsourcing. But just to speak from my own experience, I didn't really do much of any schooling in 5th-9th (my mother not knowing what to do with me began long before we knew about DE), so that made the jump to college-level courses (even stupid CC ones) difficult. Bright students in the deep end can learn to swim, but they may not always swim very well. A few months of Springboard to Spanish in 2nd grade didn't really give me enough help to manage through that horrid French class.

 

So, really, two things. First, have solid pre-reqs. Advanced middle school work may be enough for some easy intro classes, but consider student interest and maturity level. Second, investigate the classes carefully. Don't sign up for a French course taught by a German is obvious (lol). But seriously do some internet sleuthing and analyze the syllabi carefully as soon as you can. At the first sign of wonkiness, hedge your bets and find something safer. Oh, and a third thing, plan to still "homeschool" that subject. Schedule the syllabus into your own planner, checkout documentaries and other supplemental resources on top of the regular work. If you don't understand the subject at all, have the child teach it to you and explain/critique/summarize the documentaries you're watching together. Heavily support giving them lots of additional study time. You can probably stop doing these things at some point, but I would at least start off doing them. (These things aren't cheating, btw, though I know some parents feel that. You are acting as nothing more than a personal guidance counselor and doing nothing more than what is already available in most college's tutoring recourse centers. Other students are lucky enough to have great people available to help them, there's nothing wrong with making your own kid one of the lucky ones).

 

Again, not speaking at you in particular, though I hope you don't feel that it's all hopeless. Just free advice for all. 

[Barbara H]

FWIW, I had a counseling student last year who had a C in calc I as a younger dual enrolled student. Instead of just ignoring it, we decided to confront it head on and try to repair it. The community college allowed retakes so he took it again and got a low A. He went on to take calc II. He was very pleased with his admissions outcomes. He was accepted to 10 programs in his field - and a lot of merit aid at some more mid-range schools.  If he'd let C stand as the last math grade I don't think his admissions results would have been so strong. In all of situations we have to look at the big picture. If the homeschooler has a dozen outside grades and 11 are As and one is a C - that's entirely different if they have two grades and one of them is a C.

 

My advice isn't that it is the end of the world, stuff happens and it can be a learning experience. In the case I mentioned above it was a huge learning experience not to get behind and to seek out help as soon as you are struggling. My message is not to avoid dual enrollment classes, I just like to discourage homeschoolers from thinking that grades don't count or nobody cares what happened when you were 12. Prevention of bad grades can be easier... but if they happen, don't panic there are often things that can be done.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I was offered a very fancy scholarship to CalTech at 16.  I chose not to take it (both my parents had coronaries).  I wanted to be a kid and still did not understand that being PG meant I was not going to find a peer group.  When I went back to high school, I did not care much about any of the schooling.  My transcript looked atrocious.  I became unschooled and in the end made it look much, much better.  However, one of my entrance essays to a state college was entitled "What I Learned When I Wasn't Learning Anything."  It basically described what I had learned from the "Dark Ages" of my transcript.  I was later informed that it had significant impact on my acceptance.

 

I am not an expert like Barbara, and this is only a personal anecdote, but I try to remember that the admissions personnel are people.  If you relate to them like people who make mistakes as well, then I think it could really work out in your favor.  As you said, a C at 12 could be the best thing to happen if it is a major wake up call about life.  It becomes a problem when you do not frame it as a learning experience.  At that point, the admissions people either have to make assumptions (usually negative ones) or they put it in the pile of negatives because they do not know anything otherwise.

 

I am still not completely okay with my decision to not go CalTech, but I have totally owned my crap-tac-u-lar high school transcript.  If we owe up to our stuff, it is very hard to hold it against us.

 

[LMV]

As I have said, if the kid doesn't care about the Ivy League, or other name college, then why apply. It sounds like she is doing very well. Isn't that all that counts?  Just out of curiosity, she is not in Women's Basketball, is she? That is UConn's big sport.

 

As for the legacy issue, I was in the Alumni Network of the University of Pennsylvania for many years. I have a good sense of how things work.  Legacy is a nuanced attribute which can sometimes get you in and sometimes won't help you.

 

I won't say that our eldest daughter didn't consider Ivy league schools or top schools because she did.  She just didn't consider Ivy just for the sake of saying she went to an Ivy a big goal. Ultimately she looked at schools in terms of educational quality and opportunities for research in her area of interest (molecular biology, biochemistry, and cell biology).  The school she selected outranks or equals the Ivy programs in these areas [and is a top 10 ranked school overall so not exactly something that will require explanation down the road] so I'm not sure beyond "Ivy bias" what the advantage would be for her to have attended an Ivy league school.  I'm not opposed to Ivy grads because, well, I married one and I may be raising another.  I just don't believe that an Ivy degree is the only path to success.  I do think that the Ivy bias is stronger (and also likely more likely to actually be beneficial) in the Northeast so I do understand some of where you are coming from.  Outside of the Northeast, I do think that graduate and professional schools, employers, and the general populace may be just as impressed with solid Stanford, U Chicago, Duke, or Hopkins grads as your preferred Ivy schools.  Or perhaps I am just showing my own biases as a scholar athlete from a non Ivy top 10 school who had no problem obtaining entrance to medical school, residency, or fellowship sans vines. 

 

For the record I have not shared our daughter's choices and experiences to argue that others should use her approach or follow her path.  I do firmly believe that she has made the choices that have been right for her so, as her mom, I'm thrilled to see her having the confidence, self worth, and integrity to make that happen. I would like to think that her dad and I did something right or at least didn't impede too much of her forward progress. 

 

To answer your other question, no, basketball is not her sport. 

[EndOfOrdinary]

I had a questions, because I realized that I made a fairly large assumption earlier when I posted about our current decision to put off traditional early college through EEP.  I am not counting early college as meaning the Community College in this instance because we are sure that is going to happen. It is fairly common for kids here to start that full time by around 14 with a very large portion graduating high school with AA degrees and 4 year state schools by 19 or 20.  Our community college has a completely separate advising division for kids and built a new 4 year extension school to sister because it is so common.

 

Anyway, the assumption I made was that your children were not heavily involved in other pursuits and went into CC as just an extension of high school with further offerings.  Many of the people on this board have children who are specializing at the ages of 9-11 in some fairly adult pursuits.  Dmmelter's daughter is into herpatology and attending graduate level conferences, quark's son is into mathematics at a very high level, lewelma's pure math significantly as well, Embassy's kids speak or are actively learning 5 languages, my son is an activist and doing adult level grant writing, regional travel with political work, and oratory for his non-profit.  Most of these kids pursue the interests with a level of rigor which supersedes their homeschooling and becomes more of a lifestyle.    (I apologize if I missed anyone's kid and their interests.  I know I probably did. Those were just the few that came directly to mind.)

 

Taking on college coursework while doing this level of activism seems like it would melt my son's brain and tie us down to the point he cannot do his regional traveling/speaking.  That might be completely untrue.  It is a worry that I have heard from other parents whose children are working like this as well.

 

In your original post you did not mention other activities, but that doesn't mean they were not happening.  Were your kids actively specializing or pursuing major interests while they were in college?  If so, how did this balance out with a full load of coursework? 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I had a questions, because I realized that I made a fairly large assumption earlier when I posted about our current decision to put off traditional early college through EEP.  I am not counting early college as meaning the Community College in this instance because we are sure that is going to happen. It is fairly common for kids here to start that full time by around 14 with a very large portion graduating high school with AA degrees and 4 year state schools by 19 or 20.  Our community college has a completely separate advising division for kids and built a new 4 year extension school to sister because it is so common.

 

Anyway, the assumption I made was that your children were not heavily involved in other pursuits and went into CC as just an extension of high school with further offerings.  Many of the people on this board have children who are specializing at the ages of 9-11 in some fairly adult pursuits.  Dmmelter's daughter is into herpatology and attending graduate level conferences, quark's son is into mathematics at a very high level, lewelma's pure math significantly as well, Embassy's kids speak or are actively learning 5 languages, my son is an activist and doing adult level grant writing, regional travel with political work, and oratory for his non-profit.  Most of these kids pursue the interests with a level of rigor which supersedes their homeschooling and becomes more of a lifestyle.    (I apologize if I missed anyone's kid and their interests.  I know I probably did. Those were just the few that came directly to mind.)

 

Taking on college coursework while doing this level of activism seems like it would melt my son's brain and tie us down to the point he cannot do his regional traveling/speaking.  That might be completely untrue.  It is a worry that I have heard from other parents whose children are working like this as well.

 

In your original post you did not mention other activities, but that doesn't mean they were not happening.  Were your kids actively specializing or pursuing major interests while they were in college?  If so, how did this balance out with a full load of coursework? 

 

EoO, Since your ds has goals for attending a top school, I would recommend reading Kathy in Richmond's posts and Muttichen's.   They have both managed to have multiple children attend top schools.   Kathy's ds is an MIT grad and her dd is a Stanford grad.  The process for admission into highly competitive schools is far different from schools outside of the tippy top.   Kathy's kids never did DE.   They took APs, took a few upper level classes through EPGY, but mostly they took their coursework at home.    The level of work they accomplished, however, is phenomenonal.  This link discusses their math and science, but I know that her dd received gold awards all the way through all of the NLE levels.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/161440-mit/?p=1559496  They also followed their passions.   They competed in math competitions, attend MathCamp, etc.   It goes without saying that they are also brilliant.  ;) 

 

The point being that early admission or DE coursework is unnecessary.   Following their passions and letting them excel is a key factor.  

 

Hoggirl's ds is attending Stanford this fall at I believe 16.  He is another brilliant kid with an impressive list of accomplishments.   He was not homeschooled during his last couple of yrs of homeschool, though.   But searching for her posts would give you an idea of the caliber of academics that makes students competitive.  It is impressive!

[EndOfOrdinary]

Thanks 8! I know at this point I just need to stop worrying and let go. My inner control freak is struggling with that. The idea of handing him off to EEP is so appealing because it seems like they know so much more than I do! My gut tells me it is not the way to go though. His face did not light up there like it did in the other college tour. He did not have the same excitement level as he did when he came home from interviewing Ivy attendees. The pressure is just so intense for me to do well by him!

 

Our local CC is rather pathetic, but I am hoping he can get in young enough that he does not get jaded. The schools we have talked to say they want to see some DE, but I don't know how seriously they are taking me with DS being only just 10. It sure seems that a stack of AP's and other classes would teach him so much better! Who knows, maybe our states DE funding will soon begin to encompass online four year schools as well and my indecisive butt will be saved!

 

I'll look into the other posters. Cannot hurt to have a pile of info from all different voices.

[8filltheheart]

Thanks 8! I know at this point I just need to stop worrying and let go. My inner control freak is struggling with that. The idea of handing him off to EEP is so appealing because it seems like they know so much more than I do! My gut tells me it is not the way to go though. His face did not light up there like it did in the other college tour. He did not have the same excitement level as he did when he came home from interviewing Ivy attendees. The pressure is just so intense for me to do well by him!

 

Our local CC is rather pathetic, but I am hoping he can get in young enough that he does not get jaded. The schools we have talked to say they want to see some DE, but I don't know how seriously they are taking me with DS being only just 10. It sure seems that a stack of AP's and other classes would teach him so much better! Who knows, maybe our states DE funding will soon begin to encompass online four year schools as well and my indecisive butt will be saved!

 

I'll look into the other posters. Cannot hurt to have a pile of info from all different voices.

 

I would suspect that they don't want only DE and what they really want is outside validation of what he knows.   That can be accomplished via APs, SAT 2s, competitions, etc.  Letters of recommendation from researchers or others familiar with their areas of passion are also helpful.

[wapiti]

I know at this point I just need to stop worrying and let go. My inner control freak is struggling with that.

It'll be ok :). Great advice is available from the aforementioned posters for detailed suggestions of possible courses as you get into the middle and high school years. For more on applying to highly selective schools near the traditional age, I have always liked this MIT blog post, in case you haven't seen it: http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/applying_sideways

[EKS]

Just wanted to come back to this to try to ease your frustration. Whether or not your 12yo is ready for college-level work is something only the two of you can answer. But if you want to "play safe" my advice is to only move on to college when he has already completed the high school equivalent. A good high school equivalent, I should hurry on to add.

 

 

Yes--what you've suggested here is what our plan would be.  

[SunshineMom]

Many homeschoolers in our area (WA) take advantage of DE through Running Start which offers two years free college to qualifying high school juniors and seniors.  Running Start kids are super focused and mature enough to handle the classes and college environment.   

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Alright, so I've been reading along, though not replying. Vegesaurus Rex, the issue is that you proclaim yourself as an expert, say you don't mind people disagreeing with you, but then attack those who disagree. Paraphrasing is not misconstruing. If everyone is getting the same idea from your post, and you feel that's an incorrect idea, usually that means it's time for you to look at how you're communicating.

 

Vegesaurus Rex, on 09 Oct 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

I think I can consider myself an expert on early college. 

Vegesaurus Rex, on 10 Oct 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

I think I am an expert. How many others here have two kids who have graduated from college in their teens (or even one kid.) Seriously.  HOW MANY OTHERS? 

 

Doing something in theory and doing it in reality are two different things. 

Vegesaurus Rex, on 09 Oct 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

By the way, I don't mind if you or anyone else disagrees with me. I am speaking from my experience and others experience might be different or lead to different conclusions. 

 

Vegesaurus Rex, on 10 Oct 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

I really love the way you are all trying to intentionally misconstrue what I said. You are quite disingenuous. I do not have time to talk to those who only want to shake their fists in other people's faces. 

Vegesaurus Rex, on 10 Oct 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

No that is not true. At a certain point in their life, the kids will have to leave the living room and go out into the world. Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.

Vegesaurus Rex, on 10 Oct 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

I am withdrawing my offer to help, since you people know everything. 

 

I have never seen such a bunch of nit picking overly sensitive people in my life.

Vegesaurus Rex, on 11 Oct 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

I am not propagating misinformation.  It is you who do not know what you are talking about. 

 

First of all, there is no such thing as a "History BA from Wharton."  Such a creature does not exist, and never has.  I suggest you Google Wharton then come back and apologize for your misinformation. 

 

Second, I would be interested in seeing statistics from whatever four year university you are talking about showing that the AVERAGE  starting salary for all subjects at that University is $60,000.

 

This is exactly the kind of post that I would normally ignore. And I will in the future.

Vegesaurus Rex, on 12 Oct 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

You are a good example of someone who either cannot read for content or who likes to put words in other people's mouths. I did not say half of the things you attributed to me, and I am not going to dignify your ramble into the existential aether with a reply. You are only TECHNICALLY an early college student, as I was TECHNICALLY an early college student. To claim your experience demonstrates what early college students will go through is both disingenuous and absurd. As I said, we had about 40 families following in our footsteps, and although I lost track of most of them, no one has come back to me complaining about the results. 

 

 

Thank you STEM for exactly proving my point. Most people on this board are interested in sound bites, not in actually understanding what is being said. You just gave a great example - taking quotes out of context so they are virtually meaningless.  Let me take just one of your pastings and look at it closely just to make sure you understand what I object to.

 

 

Vegesaurus Rex, on 11 Oct 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

I am not propagating misinformation.  It is you who do not know what you are talking about. 

 

First of all, there is no such thing as a "History BA from Wharton."  Such a creature does not exist, and never has.  I suggest you Google Wharton then come back and apologize for your misinformation. 

 

Second, I would be interested in seeing statistics from whatever four year university you are talking about showing that the AVERAGE  starting salary for all subjects at that University is $60,000.

 

This is exactly the kind of post that I would normally ignore. And I will in the future.

 

I was responding to a person who was talking about salaries earned by History BAs from Wharton.  The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania is a business school and does not, and never has offered a BA in History.  In fact, the poster, to her credit came back and apologized for her mistake. 

 

She also incorrectly stated that the average 4-year university grad earns a starting salary of $60,000. She would, of course be correct if only considering the top universities, but certainly not ALL universities. I think I showed that by posting sample statistics from various college sites.

 

Now again the errors this person made were factual errors that could have easily been avoided. I read her other posts, not directed at me, and they were very intelligent. Why she felt the need to make up stuff when talking to me is unclear.

 

Your use of sound bites from my posts is an even worse sin. Especially since one of my biggest complaints here is just that. People take stuff out of context. Most people here seem quite intelligent, and I question why they don't realize that on a blog such as this context is everything.

 

Sound bites are part of our pop culture. You are obviously immersed in that. This is one of the reasons that we elect the politicians that we do. Not paying attention. 

 

Would you care to explain yourself in view of my criticism?

 

Also, I would like to point out that not all of you have short attention spans or cannot understand text that is longer than one sentence. Several of you have contacted me privately, and have asked serious questions and haven't tried to engage me in rambling bickering.  I think I have helped a few of them which is why I came here in the first place.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I won't say that our eldest daughter didn't consider Ivy league schools or top schools because she did.  She just didn't consider Ivy just for the sake of saying she went to an Ivy a big goal. Ultimately she looked at schools in terms of educational quality and opportunities for research in her area of interest (molecular biology, biochemistry, and cell biology).  The school she selected outranks or equals the Ivy programs in these areas [and is a top 10 ranked school overall so not exactly something that will require explanation down the road] so I'm not sure beyond "Ivy bias" what the advantage would be for her to have attended an Ivy league school.  I'm not opposed to Ivy grads because, well, I married one and I may be raising another.  I just don't believe that an Ivy degree is the only path to success.  I do think that the Ivy bias is stronger (and also likely more likely to actually be beneficial) in the Northeast so I do understand some of where you are coming from.  Outside of the Northeast, I do think that graduate and professional schools, employers, and the general populace may be just as impressed with solid Stanford, U Chicago, Duke, or Hopkins grads as your preferred Ivy schools.  Or perhaps I am just showing my own biases as a scholar athlete from a non Ivy top 10 school who had no problem obtaining entrance to medical school, residency, or fellowship sans vines. 

 

For the record I have not shared our daughter's choices and experiences to argue that others should use her approach or follow her path.  I do firmly believe that she has made the choices that have been right for her so, as her mom, I'm thrilled to see her having the confidence, self worth, and integrity to make that happen. I would like to think that her dad and I did something right or at least didn't impede too much of her forward progress. 

 

To answer your other question, no, basketball is not her sport. 

 

The Ivy League is not the only path to success, but it certainly is a good one. Being from an Ivy has helped me all my life. You are also right about the Ivies being very strong in the East. However, as I have pointed out, schools like UConn are excellent choices as well. UConn has an honors program that allows for immediate research, groups together all of the honors students in the same dorm, and has special programs and classes only open to honors students.  To my mind it combines the benefits of an Ivy, with the ambiance and cost of a state university. It is a great choice.

 

I am also sure that your daughter's school was a great choice. Is there a reason that you haven't named the school, or explained why she chose that school over others. I for one would be interested if you care to talk about it.

 

I think I have been very open about my kids experience, and I certainly never said or implied that others SHOULD use their approach  or follow their path.  My kids are unique, I think, even among home schoolers. Seriously, do you know any other home schoolers who have gone on to law school? Home school parents, yes. But not home schoolers. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has a home schooler who did law school.

 

I think the TWTM is an excellent guide for home schooling, and it does emphasize Rhetoric. However, in reality, I have noticed that Rhetoric and public speaking are generally not emphasized as much as they should be by homeschoolers. 

[regentrude]

She also incorrectly stated that the average 4-year university grad earns a starting salary of $60,000. She would, of course be correct if only considering the top universities, but certainly not ALL universities. I think I showed that by posting sample statistics from various college sites.

 

I never stated what you claim I did. I specifically stated that this is true for the institution where I teach, not for the average 4-year university grad:

 

The graduates at the public four year university where I teach begin their careers with an average starting salary of $ 60,000.

 

 

 

Why she felt the need to make up stuff when talking to me is unclear.

 

I have no interest in making things up.

 

As for the mistake where I typed Wharton instead of Penn, I corrected that immediately in my post when it was brought to my attention.

 

But I do not even know why I bother replying, since you clearly said you were done talking to me.

 

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Vegesaurus Rex,

 

You are new to this board, and the tone of your posts is not in line with our community guidelines.

 

Please read the guidelines before posting again. 

 

As the topic has been thoroughly explored, I am also closing this thread.

 

Thank you.

 

SWB