Early College

[Vegesaurus Rex]

We're not intentionally misconstruing what you said. We've hashed this topic out many, many times before you started to post. It's great that your kids are happy with their path, but many posters here would prefer to wait until typical college age and shoot for a highly selective school. It's always a trade off. You can go to a regular college early or an elite college on time. It's extremely rare to go to an elite college early.

 

OTOH, a lot of people do use DE and AP credits to demonstrate academic ability. The problem, of course, is that this completely depends on the resources available in your local area. It depends on whether your local CC is academically sound, has articulation agreements and the reputation of your state flagship university. Not all local schools will allow outside students to sit an AP without charging a hefty proctoring fee. Not all local schools will even order a Latin or European History or Physics C test if they don't offer the corresponding course. So, you are a fount of useful information for CT homeschoolers, but your experience won't help the Texans much.

 

We're an argumentative bunch, it's truly not personal. We just like to debate educational topics and kilts and cupcakes. Do you have an opinion on cupcakes?

 

I like cupcakes. Particularly this time of year spicy nut cupcakes with pumpkin frosting.

 

You may be an argumentative bunch, but I don't like gang bangs. If you have serious questions, I will be happy to discuss them. However, I came here to offer my help to those who are contemplating early college. I am not interested in debating whether early college is good or bad. I know the answer to that question for my own kids and that is the only answer that counts for me.  If you have no use for early college, or you want to show that some other choice is just as good, I will not respond, since that has nothing to do with my reason for being here.  I am truly an expert on early college. Like it or not, I seem to be the only one here who has actually done it, both myself and with my kids. 

 

I can speak to what it takes to get into an Ivy League school, since I have done that. I can speak to what it takes to get your kid through college at an early age.  I can speak to how to get accepted into law school since  one of my kids has done it, and my other kid is in the process of doing it.  I can speak to what a kid has to do to get a good GPA in college. 

 

I am a homeschool father and I am extremely fond of homeschooling and what it can accomplish. However, I have also seen many mistakes made by homeschooling families, particularly unschoolers. (I am not going to debate that - this is my opinion based upon observation, period.) Homeschooling is a tool, a means to an objective. My objective was to get my kids out of the public schools which are a disgrace, and to do it in a way that would benefit and not hurt them. I do not believe that public school gifted and talented programs are worth much, unless they involve setting up segregated schools for the more intelligent such as Bronx Science or Central High/Girls High in Philadelphia. If you don't happen to live within the jurisdiction of those schools or schools like them, then homeschooling is probably the only answer. 

 

Of course the model I prefer is homeschooling that merges into early college. I was a pioneer in my area in doing this, and other homeschooling families followed us. I worked with the faculty at Tunxis and got them to put in special classes that would benefit our group, such as College Latin. As I said previously, we marked the trail for many, many families to utilize the available resources and the last I heard was that there were 40 early college students at Tunxis. This was a while ago. I have not kept up since we moved beyond the Tunxis era years ago. 

 

As I have stated, if your kid is intelligent enough, focused enough mature enough, and if he wants to go to early college, this is probably something you should try. If you have doubts about his ability to handle it, however, be cautious. Early College is not for everyone. Start easy so that if it doesn't work you can back out gracefully. Remember I said there were four prerequisites for trying early college:

 

1. Intelligence.  

2. Maturity

3. Focus

4 Desire to do it

 

With the understanding that I will not respond to any questions or posts that I deem disingenuous, baiting, willfully misconstruing, I will discuss this topic with any serious person who is considering this option for their kids. If all you want to do is prove that what you are doing is better than early college, I am truly not interested and will not respond.

[Dmmetler]

I'd be very wary of sending DD to college before I know she can get an A in the classes she's taking.  TN currently funds DE pretty well for juniors and seniors (and, as a homeschooler, I have a lot of control over what her records state). But if you drop below a 3.0 in your first year, or a 3.25 after that, it's gone. A single course with a C grade kills that funding from then on out. Which means that sending her to the local CC for a easy, fun course and getting a C would potentially cost thousands of dollars in funding even just during DE.  If she wants to take photography, I'd rather send her to a continuing ed course at the local Art college and count it as a high school elective rather than risk her GPA.

 

I've looked into schools here, and in general, any support given to students before high school graduation comes in form of "We accept the TN HOPE scholarship".  There is free tuition at community colleges under the PROMISE program, but only for high school graduates, not for non-matriculated students. 

 

And I do think that part of college is finding intellectual peers. I'm thinking that going too young might make that hard. DD could, quite easily, graduate high school by age 12 if she so desired and we started just checking boxes, but I suspect that unless she goes to a dedicated early entry program, she'd have the same situation that she has with her research teams now, where she's considered more a mascot than a peer. At age 8-9, it doesn't bother her much, but I can see where it might make college a lonely place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

Sorry, but I disagree that it would have no effect. Of course, someone applying to Stanford must have a strong resume in any case. That goes without saying.

 

Legacy status is definitely a plus, but it's not going to get an unqualified candidate into a highly competitive school unless the parent donates big bucks (as in six or seven figures big).

 

In my time at Stanford, I met two students whom I felt were totally unqualified to be at the school. One was a varsity running back who wound up playing for the NFL. He was an amazing athlete but dumb as a rock. The second was son of one of the university trustees. He was also dumb as a rock but his daddy had donated millions so there he was.

[Laura Corin]

 I am truly an expert on early college. Like it or not, I seem to be the only one here who has actually done it, both myself and with my kids. 

 

Hi, Veg.  I'm really glad that very early college has worked for you.  Personally, I would hesitate to call myself an expert on.... well anything educational.  I'm dealing with a small sample size, even if I look around at other people who have taken my advice on issues.  

 

Am I an expert in gaining early entrance to Oxford University for a young student with an unconventional educational background?  No.  I did it with my son, but I'm not an expert.

 

L

[quark]

Our current situation is not so much early college as a step taken to continue to challenge my son the best way we think is available to us. I don't consider early community college as early college; more of a chance to taste something different from the more sheltered homeschooling life we had previously followed. The goals of the CC are different from mine and my son's.

 

If this step means that he won't get an A for a class then so be it. I don't expect the community college to show him any favors. We are taking it as a learning experience and as a way for him to rise above himself, to open his eyes to what is out there and to also make some friends along the way if it is possible. And more than anything, to keep boredom at bay and to give him a chance to dabble in a bunch of other things without us being too worried about finances. We are the point where this seems like the ideal step available to him now. It might change next semester. But we are willing to work with the changes and find a fit every single time.

 

As an only child from an introverted/ reserved family with only a small group of close friends, this is giving him a chance to meet more people and practice those err, social skills and is really polishing up his executive function skills. I still see this as part of our homeschooling. And his schedule has enough lee way in it that he can still take AoPS classes if he wants. In fact, he is considering signing up for precalculus with AoPS in Nov. He was supposed to in summer but life took a turn and we decided to delay it. Although he is taking calc 1 at the CC (and it's no way on par with any of the AoPS courses he has taken) I still feel that AoPS precalc will be a better fit for him challenge wise and because we have the flexibility of homeschooling, we can arrange our schedule in such a way that he can fit both his CC math (and fulfill his need of an IRL prof) and AoPS (to fulfill his need for more challenge/ proofs/ diversity of math) when needed.

 

I guess my point is why can't this still be a part of homeschooling? Why does early college or early community college have to be strictly something other than homeschooling? Is this unique to CA? Do other states provide the option for early high school grads to still be under the umbrella of their private homeschools?

[Dmmetler]

In TN, once you graduate, that's it. You're not a K-12 student in any school, private, public or home. You can do Dual Enrollment without graduating, but the state grants only pay for a small number of DE credits and restrict what you can do. (If you want to pay out of pocket, then you can do whatever the university/college you're getting credits from allows). Graduation is based on checking boxes. I can't speak for other states.

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

 

Maybe you'd like to describe how various factors happened to balance out in favor of early college. Less expensive cost, if that's the case, is one good reason for a family who would otherwise not receive sufficient aid from the other schools that might have been within reach had the student applied closer to the traditional age and with an application that would be naturally stronger due to that extra time.

 

Finances is probably the biggest factor in why we are considering early college for my oldest. She wants to go into a field that will require at least a master's (speech & langauge pathology) and 4 or 5 years at the Cal State LA early entrance program would be cheaper than a single undergraduate year at a school like Northwestern (the most prestigious college that offers a Communicative Disorders major). Doing the Speech & Language Pathology Assistant associate's at one of the community colleges in our area and then transferring to our local Cal State as a junior would be even cheaper but wouldn't provide a same-age peer group that EEP would. However, the CC & transfer option would qualify her to work as a SLPA while finishing up her bachelor's (whether she'd actually be successful in landing a paid SLPA job in her late teens is the big question). The less money we have to spend helping her with her undergraduate degree, the better position we'd be in to help her with grad school.

 

That said, we are also applying for prep school scholarships and a special charter school for the gifted. Either of those options would provide the positive peer group and the intellectual stimulation that we'd want out of early college.

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Finances is probably the biggest factor in why we are considering early college for my oldest. She wants to go into a field that will require at least a master's (speech & langauge pathology) and 4 or 5 years at the Cal State LA early entrance program would be cheaper than a single undergraduate year at a school like Northwestern (the most prestigious college that offers a Communicative Disorders major). Doing the Speech & Language Pathology Assistant associate's at one of the community colleges in our area and then transferring to our local Cal State as a junior would be even cheaper but wouldn't provide a same-age peer group that EEP would. However, the CC & transfer option would qualify her to work as a SLPA while finishing up her bachelor's (whether she'd actually be successful in landing a paid SLPA job in her late teens is the big question). The less money we have to spend helping her with her undergraduate degree, the better position we'd be in to help her with grad school.

 

That said, we are also applying for prep school scholarships and a special charter school for the gifted. Either of those options would provide the positive peer group and the intellectual stimulation that we'd want out of early college.

 

 

I find details like these quite helpful! It helps me to filter the information, sifting it through my reality.

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

In TN, once you graduate, that's it. You're not a K-12 student in any school, private, public or home. You can do Dual Enrollment without graduating, but the state grants only pay for a small number of DE credits and restrict what you can do. (If you want to pay out of pocket, then you can do whatever the university/college you're getting credits from allows). Graduation is based on checking boxes. I can't speak for other states.

 

This is an valid point. In addition to what you've mentioned, there are some valuable opportunities for gifted teens that end at high school graduation. Sometime scholarship opportunities end as well. There are so many details to consider - being well informed of all the options and consequences is vital.

 

[quark]

Finances is probably the biggest factor in why we are considering early college for my oldest. She wants to go into a field that will require at least a master's (speech & langauge pathology) and 4 or 5 years at the Cal State LA early entrance program would be cheaper than a single undergraduate year at a school like Northwestern (the most prestigious college that offers a Communicative Disorders major). Doing the Speech & Language Pathology Assistant associate's at one of the community colleges in our area and then transferring to our local Cal State as a junior would be even cheaper but wouldn't provide a same-age peer group that EEP would. However, the CC & transfer option would qualify her to work as a SLPA while finishing up her bachelor's (whether she'd actually be successful in landing a paid SLPA job in her late teens is the big question). The less money we have to spend helping her with her undergraduate degree, the better position we'd be in to help her with grad school.

 

That said, we are also applying for prep school scholarships and a special charter school for the gifted. Either of those options would provide the positive peer group and the intellectual stimulation that we'd want out of early college.

 

 

The bolded will probably be our direction as well. I think I am starting to realize that finding a same age peer group for intellectual stimulus is going to remain difficult for him. We might have to make do with what we have (a couple of super cool and smart friends from homeschool groups to discuss anything under the sun with, a couple of friends from math circle to discuss math with or be goofy with, and a couple of good friends from CC activities like sports and music to play sports or music with, but none from academic subject classes) till he hits his late teens or early 20s, when these things might not matter as much any more.

[Crimson Wife]

 I guess my point is why can't this still be a part of homeschooling? Why does early college or early community college have to be strictly something other than homeschooling? Is this unique to CA? Do other states provide the option for early high school grads to still be under the umbrella of their private homeschools?

 

If part of the goal of early college is to provide a peer group, then enrolling in a formal early entrance program would provide that in a way that HSing doesn't (particularly in areas where most HSers do not go through high school).

[kiana]

If part of the goal of early college is to provide a peer group, then enrolling in a formal early entrance program would provide that in a way that HSing doesn't (particularly in areas where most HSers do not go through high school).

 

Yep.

 

One of the really cool things about formal early entrance programs is the way they get to meet other young, bright, and eager students. 

[quark]

Formal programs are beyond our budget for now. Even super cool summer programs are too expensive. Or perhaps we would afford one and not be able to continue subsequent years :001_unsure:. We are in that frustrating middle where we also won't qualify for aid. One good thing about his CC music program at least is that the kids really want to be there and their enthusiasm is so infectious.

[kiana]

Formal programs are beyond our budget for now. Even super cool summer programs are too expensive. Or perhaps we would afford one and not be able to continue subsequent years :001_unsure:. We are in that frustrating middle where we also won't qualify for aid. One good thing about his CC music program at least is that the kids really want to be there and their enthusiasm is so infectious.

 

That is frequently one really awesome thing about pure electives at a college. Nobody is taking the course because they need it for a general education requirement -- they are just taking it because they want to take it. 

[quark]

That is frequently one really awesome thing about pure electives at a college. Nobody is taking the course because they need it for a general education requirement -- they are just taking it because they want to take it. 

 

The CC is a godsend in this respect for us. :) Most of these courses are just a unit each (although kiddo spends 10+ hours per week practicing on the piano). We are thinking of gradually going into the uni DE route for the academic subjects and taking the other stuff at the CC. Strange (to me) how I had hoped he would make friends and have cool discussions in math and science, but how he is doing that in the electives classes instead so far. :)

 

Sorry to detract from the original thread.

 

ETA: PS (hope you won't mind an additional snippet from this proud mom)...he will be participating in a college concert today as one of the pianists! So excited for him.

 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Hi, Veg.  I'm really glad that very early college has worked for you.  Personally, I would hesitate to call myself an expert on.... well anything educational.  I'm dealing with a small sample size, even if I look around at other people who have taken my advice on issues.  

 

Am I an expert in gaining early entrance to Oxford University for a young student with an unconventional educational background?  No.  I did it with my son, but I'm not an expert.

 

L

 

If you did that, then you are far more of an expert than anyone who has not done that, which I believe would probably include myself and everyone else on this board. I would love to hear about that.

[Butler]

Our current situation is not so much early college as a step taken to continue to challenge my son the best way we think is available to us....

 

If this step means that he won't get an A for a class then so be it. I don't expect the community college to show him any favors. We are taking it as a learning experience and as a way for him to rise above himself, to open his eyes to what is out there and to also make some friends along the way

These are good reasons to take college classes but you do have to be aware of the potential consequences. An occasional lower than A grade might not hurt in the long run, but - in the long run - it will always be there. My college junior son has been filling out applications for internships and has to send college transcripts. Those college grades from classes he took when he was 12 are included in his apps. Fortunately he did well, but a few C grades on his transcript could definitely have an effect on acceptances, especially if they were in classes in his future major.

 

In our experience, colleges do not cut younger students any slack just for being younger.

[8filltheheart]

. Like it or not, I seem to be the only one here who has actually done it, both myself and with my kids. 

 

It is not that you are the only one who has done it. You are simply the only one who has chosen that route that happens to be posting in this thread. Jenny in Florida's dd graduated with her bachelor's at 16 and Butler's kids started early college at 12 and 14.

 

This not an unusual conversation on this board. We have it quite a bit.

 

  

Yep.

 

One of the really cool things about formal early entrance programs is the way they get to meet other young, bright, and eager students.

 

 

 

Our ds was actually in a strange situation here. The university allows for DE but the courses are restricted to a small list and they can only take 1 class. The university also has an early entrance program for accelerated learners, but no one is actually using the program. (It was the same way at in VA. No students were actually participating in the ECE (early college experience) program. ) Here he was considered a morph of the 2. He had the qualifications required for the criteria of an ECE student, but actually enrolled like a DE student (he was allowed to take as many classes as he wanted and they didn't have to be from the list, but he also was still considered a high school student.)

 

I think there needs to be a distinction between ECE programs in general where the students are just part of the student body or the programs are not really specially organized around the students and programs like Simon Rock.

 

 

Formal programs are beyond our budget for now. Even super cool summer programs are too expensive. Or perhaps we would afford one and not be able to continue subsequent years :001_unsure:. We are in that frustrating middle where we also won't qualify for aid. One good thing about his CC music program at least is that the kids really want to be there and their enthusiasm is so infectious.

One thing about these decisions is the impact on financial aid. You cannot qualify for aid until you graduate from high school. It can become a catch22. You can't qualify for the aid without graduating, but graduating early can knock you out of the running for major scholarships. We opted to pay out of pocket and aim for the scholarships. It ended up costing us less in the long run. But, it can make the decision making process difficult.

[8filltheheart]

These are good reasons to take college classes but you do have to be aware of the potential consequences. An occasional lower than A grade might not hurt in the long run, but - in the long run - it will always be there. My college junior son has been filling out applications for internships and has to send college transcripts. Those college grades from classes he took when he was 12 are included in his apps. Fortunately he did well, but a few C grades on his transcript could definitely have an effect on acceptances, especially if they were in classes in his future major.

 

In our experience, colleges do not cut younger students any slack just for being younger.

LOL!! You posted while I was posting. I had just searched for your posts b/c I couldn't remember your posting name and found it in the thread where Jenny was discussing early college! I should have just waited!

[kiana]

One thing about these decisions is the impact on financial aid. You cannot qualify for aid until you graduate from high school. It can become a catch22. You can't qualify for the aid without graduating, but graduating early can knock you out of the running for major scholarships. We opted to pay out of pocket and aim for the scholarships. It ended up costing us less in the long run. But, it can make the decision making process difficult.

 

Yes. Also if you are Pell eligible, graduating early and expecting to start out with 12 credits/semester to ease your way in can be very problematic. 

[quark]

These are good reasons to take college classes but you do have to be aware of the potential consequences. An occasional lower than A grade might not hurt in the long run, but - in the long run - it will always be there. My college junior son has been filling out applications for internships and has to send college transcripts. Those college grades from classes he took when he was 12 are included in his apps. Fortunately he did well, but a few C grades on his transcript could definitely have an effect on acceptances, especially if they were in classes in his future major.

 

In our experience, colleges do not cut younger students any slack just for being younger.

 

Thank you! I appreciate your comment Butler. Kiddo is on track for an A in each so far but things can change and one of the skills he is learning is to be aware of that. Bolded part...yes. I definitely wouldn't want a college to do that for kiddo. It would defeat our goals for taking this step.

[quark]

One thing about these decisions is the impact on financial aid. You cannot qualify for aid until you graduate from high school. It can become a catch22. You can't qualify for the aid without graduating, but graduating early can knock you out of the running for major scholarships. We opted to pay out of pocket and aim for the scholarships. It ended up costing us less in the long run. But, it can make the decision making process difficult.

 

Thank you 8. Still figuring out and researching these things. I am so thankful that we have the option to keep him enrolled in our homeschool and yet still take the CC classes as a high school graduate (only for the priority registration actually, which allows smoother access to better instructors). The flexibility is priceless for now at least.

 

 

[Butler]

LOL!! You posted while I was posting. I had just searched for your posts b/c I couldn't remember your posting name and found it in the thread where Jenny was discussing early college! I should have just waited!

I just saw this thread, usually the early college threads catch my eye but I missed this one somehow.

 

I am a big proponent of early college. I was an early college student and I have kids that are early college students, but I most certainly don't think it is the only or best path to choose for everyone. While I will gladly share our experiences and the benefits and pitfalls, I am not in anyway an expert!

[quark]

Not that it's really relevant to the conversation, but I went into the Army two days after HS graduation. I was 17. I spent 2 years on active duty, one at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey where I learned 4 years of college level Russian in one year. I began college at 19 and graduated in 3 years with a double major in Russian and PPE (Politics, Philosophy, and Economics) from Claremont McKenna. While at CMC, I was in Army ROTC and served in the Army Reserve for 4 years. I spent my summers interning in DC and deploying to various locations with the Army. I graduated from CMC at 22, spent a year on a Rotary Fellowship at Moscow State University Law School studying comparative constitutional law. I worked for Deloitte Consulting for 2 years as a Business Analyst in a pre-MBA feeder program. I turned down a free MBA at INSEAD in France to study at Stanford Law. Worst decision of my life.

 

UConn is a fine regional law school. I did not want to limit my marketability to a particular region or to a particular type of practice. This turned out to be a prudent decision on my part, as I have practiced all over the country and in a wide variety of industries. I was able to get a job with Lehman Brothers Investment Banking Division and with Top 10 law firms even at the bottom half of my Stanford class -- something which would have been impossible at a regional law school.

 

Might not be directly relevant SeaConquest but thank you for sharing. I found it inspiring to read the stepping stones you've taken to reach where you are today. This board is made up of such fascinating folk with so many varied experiences. I take every opportunity to explain to kiddo how to some people, starting CC might feel like a culmination of an educational path but how in actual fact, their lives are just starting and how important it is for him to seize opportunities because he will never know where they will lead. Interestingly, he turns to me sometimes and asks me to do the same. :)

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Might not be directly relevant SeaConquest but thank you for sharing. I found it inspiring to read the stepping stones you've taken to reach where you are today. This board is made up of such fascinating folk with so many varied experiences. I take every opportunity to explain to kiddo how to some people, starting CC might feel like a culmination of an educational path but how in actual fact, their lives are just starting and how important it is for him to seize opportunities because he will never know where they will lead. Interestingly, he turns to me sometimes and asks me to do the same. :)

 

 

:001_wub:

 

[DonHomeschool]

Vegesaurus Rex,

 

Thank you for sharing your experience with us.  I appreciate how you shared your original plans with your children’s education; how you had to reconcile what you wanted and what they accomplished. 

 

I know it must feel great to see how your son progressed to complete law school and in the process to taking the bar exam.  Finally, good luck to your daughter at UConn Law.

[SeaConquest]

Might not be directly relevant SeaConquest but thank you for sharing. I found it inspiring to read the stepping stones you've taken to reach where you are today. This board is made up of such fascinating folk with so many varied experiences. I take every opportunity to explain to kiddo how to some people, starting CC might feel like a culmination of an educational path but how in actual fact, their lives are just starting and how important it is for him to seize opportunities because he will never know where they will lead. Interestingly, he turns to me sometimes and asks me to do the same. :)

 

 

Aww, that is truly lovely of you to say, though much undeserved on my part. Your son has an amazing future ahead of him, Quark. I feel so grateful for this board and am excited to have a small window into the lives of such incredibly talented young people. :001_wub:  

[Crimson Wife]

 

One thing about these decisions is the impact on financial aid. You cannot qualify for aid until you graduate from high school. It can become a catch22. You can't qualify for the aid without graduating, but graduating early can knock you out of the running for major scholarships. We opted to pay out of pocket and aim for the scholarships. It ended up costing us less in the long run. But, it can make the decision making process difficult.

 

One thing we're doing for our DD is using applying for prep school scholarships as a "trial run" for seeing whether she'd be competitive for college merit scholarships. Granted, a lot can change between middle school and 11th & 12th grade, but it is a guage of her competitiveness nonetheless.

[8filltheheart]

One thing we're doing for our DD is using applying for prep school scholarships as a "trial run" for seeing whether she'd be competitive for college merit scholarships. Granted, a lot can change between middle school and 11th & 12th grade, but it is a guage of her competitiveness nonetheless.

 

I don't know that that approach would have worked with our family.   My kids don't really start "specializing" or having anything really "stand out" in their lives until they are in high school.   When ds was in 8th grade, the only thing unusual about his transcript would be that he had already completed math through AoPS alg3.   But fast forward to 12th grade,and his transcript bore little resemblance to any typical high school student.   

 

Also, every university is unique.   Where one might award them thousands of dollars with a huge financial portion still the family's responsibility, another school might offer them full-ride, while other schools offer zero merit $$ and everything is strictly financial aid.   The financial aspect of college applications can be a HUGE learning curve, even after you have been through it with other kids.   Our youngest ds's application process was nothing like our oldest's.

[Laura Corin]

If you did that, then you are far more of an expert than anyone who has not done that, which I believe would probably include myself and everyone else on this board. I would love to hear about that.

I'll give you the precis: like your experience, it's very specific to places, times and an individual child, so it's not something that could be replicated; I've been on these boards or ten years, so it's a fairly well-known story

 

- 'Calvin' born in London, moved to Hong Kong as a baby; precocious

- Tested gifted/learning disabled; tried a mainstream school for one year; Montessori for one year; Montessori part time for a year; OT for three years

- Moved to China; home educated for five years; moved to Scotland; home educated for two more years

- Started taking UK-system 'High School' level exams at 11.  

- Lacking peers and mentors, started 'high school' at a mildly-selective private school at 13.  Trod water in academics for a year or two but learned a lot socially and organisationally.  He decided he wanted to go to Oxford or Cambridge

- He researched and entered a national poetry competition; chosen as runner up.

- Studied for the IB.  One brilliant teacher but the school is generally clueless about the specific entry requirements for Oxford.  I found him extra mentors and did a lot of prep with him myself.

- He got into Oxford; started on Monday.

 

L

[EndOfOrdinary]

My son is on track to start DE at 14 with an AA and high school graduation at 16.  However, none of the schools he currently cares about count the DE as transfer credit.  In many ways that makes the Community College just more homeschool.  The 4 years that he wants to apply to really like the idea of seeing the DE (we have asked a couple), but they only count it as a small tick mark towards acceptance.  I think this happens in many places and is similar to what quark was talking about.  It is an extension, not really early college.  The level of instruction is not going to be incredible.  They offer some interesting things like Japanese, but not really anything that will knock his socks off like the top teir 4 years. 

 

Finances are the reason we have really hashed out this route, but also because of my son's non-profit.  He has major business obligations at this point (he has been personally asked for to speak to the Governor later this month) and cannot devote the time level to 4 year school even if it is reasonable to start at age 12.  With college as box checking (which is what it would be if we started really early) he would not be able to do his long distance backpacking, his activism, all three of his languages, and still skateboard like a 10 year old.  I would be sacrificing the whole person he could be for a status symbol.  His Ivy League goals require the whole person.  His fulfillment in life requires the whole person. 

 

There is an EEP program in our state, and perhaps when he is 14 we will enroll him in that program so his bachelors will be completed by 18.  The peer group would be very nice, we would get considerable aid, but at this point I cannot see my tyedye wearing, drum playing, silly kid as wanting to solely devote himself to school.  There is just too much more out there. 

[lewelma]

If you have serious questions, I will be happy to discuss them. .

 

I have very serious questions, and given that you have done this and know many who have, I would like your thoughts. I woke up this morning disappointed that you brushed my questions aside.   :sad:   The issues I brought up are not country specific, they are generic.  I want to do what is best for my ds, and I can get him into university in 12 months if I want -- we have an exam system, so he can just take the exams next November and get in at age 15 to a top 100 university in the world.  But what I want to know is how you make choices between the different options.  How do you decide that early university is the best option on a long term basis? 

 

These are my questions:

 

I've got a couple of questions.  First, I'm not clear on how doing fewer classes will help my son.  Looks like when he enters full time, one year early, he will slot into 300 level mathematics courses.  This means that his undergraduate will consist of 300 level and graduate level courses, rather than 100, 200, and 300. So he will have exposure to more types of mathematics from which to choose from for his grad work.  If he did early-entrance, he would have a much less developed understanding of field of mathematics and what part he was interested in.  Do you see this as only a mathematics issue? Perhaps mathematics is more differentiated than other subjects?  Perhaps it takes longer to gain skill? 

 

Also, for him the moment he enters full time, he cannot compete in the IMO (international math olympiad).  From what I can tell, attending the IMO is worth delaying full-time university entrance from the point of view of a resume.  So I guess I would like to know how you would weigh these types of options. {edited to add: this is an international competition, so Americans attend also}

 

Finally, the moment my ds enters full time, he will focus in math and math only.  No more violin or mandarin, both of which are passions of his but both of which always fall to the bottom of his priorities when there is math to do.  For him, delaying full time entrance allows him to be a fuller person.  Interested to hear your comments on this.

 

I would appreciate it if you took the time to respond.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Butler]

... First, I'm not clear on how doing fewer classes will help my son. Looks like when he enters full time, one year early, he will slot into 300 level mathematics courses. This means that his undergraduate will consist of 300 level and graduate level courses, rather than 100, 200, and 300. So he will have exposure to more types of mathematics from which to choose from for his grad work. If he did early-entrance, he would have a much less developed understanding of field of mathematics and what part he was interested in. Do you see this as only a mathematics issue? Perhaps mathematics is more differentiated than other subjects? Perhaps it takes longer to gain skill?

 

Also, for him the moment he enters full time, he cannot compete in the IMO (international math olympiad). From what I can tell, attending the IMO is worth delaying full-time university entrance from the point of view of a resume. So I guess I would like to know how you would weigh these types of options.

 

Finally, the moment my ds enters full time, he will focus in math and math only. No more violin or mandarin, both of which are passions of his but both of which always fall to the bottom of his priorities when there is math to do. For him, delaying full time entrance allows him to be a fuller person. Interested to hear your comments on this.

 

Ruth in NZ

Not Vegesaurus but I'll give you my take on this if you're interested. I agree that, at least for mathematics, entering as an undergrad at a high level (at whatever age that can be achieved) is much more preferable. All of the top math students that my son has come into contact with (through school, conferences, REUs) entered college extremely advanced. Competitive students (in the US at least) for top math graduate schools have usually taken numerous graduate level courses. That's difficult to accomplish if you enter college only at the calculus level. My son is starting his third year and has taken somewhere around 10 graduate classes. He attended a rather selective program this summer with students that he considers his future grad school "competitors" and he was not an outlier there. They all had taken many graduate classes.

 

Research is also important for grad schools and there is really very little research a math undergrad can do, at least in pure math, without a lot of advanced knowledge.

 

My son is not interested in competition math so I can't speak to that. There are some benefits for top IMO scorers when it comes to undergrad admissions. But more importantly, if these competitions are very important to your son, then that alone would be enough to delay college entrance in my opinion. Life is short. If math competitions are a passion then I would encourage my son to pursue that now when he can. Keep in mind though, math competitions don't end at undergrad college entrance. Undergrads can take the Putnam exam. Top scorers on that exam get benefits in grad school applications.

 

As far as wanting to focus on math to the exclusion of all else, that to me would be a very telling sign that early entrance was a good move for a student. My son lives and breathes math. It is not a sacrifice to him at all to be so involved in the subject. If your son would feel like he was being forced to give up other interests then he probably would be better served by delaying college entrance for awhile.

 

Hope that helps somewhat.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

 

I have very serious questions, and given that you have done this and know many who have, I would like your thoughts. I woke up this morning disappointed that you brushed my questions aside.   :sad:   The issues I brought up are not country specific, they are generic.  I want to do what is best for my ds, and I can get him into university in 12 months if I want -- we have an exam system, so he can just take the exams next November and get in at age 15 to a top 100 university in the world.  But what I want to know is how you make choices between the different options.  How do you decide that early university is the best option on a long term basis? 

 

These are my questions:

 

 

I would appreciate it if you took the time to respond.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Ruth, I didn't brush your issues aside, I just didn't feel competent to answer them. Much of any possible answer to your issues depends upon what is locally available, and what universities in New Zealand require. I don't know anything about that. 

 

I have been contacted for private discussion of issues that I do feel competent to answer, and I have answered them. At least to the best of my ability. But I really cannot address early admission to a University in New Zealand since I don't even know if that is possible in New Zealand. If your system is like the British, and you need A-Levels to get in, then there is not much flexibility there. Simply take the A-Levels and they will accept you or not. I am not sure there is a way around that, unless you are a foreign student. 

 

The reason I opted for early college was multifold:

 

1. IMO the public schools in our area sucked. This was my opinion despite the fact that they are ranked near the top of the list in Connecticut.  I had enough knowledge of the local schools to know that they were anti intellectual, teach to the middle schools run on the Prussian Model where obedience to rules and regurgitation of facts was the norm. Also, I met several of the teachers and was not at all impressed with their depth of knowledge. The administrators were like Nazi Obergruppenfuhrers.

 

2. I didn't mention this but we also tried a private school and that was just as bad.

 

3. I have long believed that if you didn't like how others were doing things, then do it yourself. After experience with the schools, I decided that I absolutely could not do worse than they were doing. I was right.

 

4. My wife could afford to quit her job and spend full time teaching. She had a Masters Degree.

 

5. So that got us into home schooling. When my kids reached the tween years, I started to realize that for example, I had a very strong math background, but that didn't mean I could teach it, so I needed to look for help. At first we started the Community College as an auxiliary to our home schooling, but soon it became obvious, that they had a wider variety of courses and better instructors than we could hope to be. So we gradually tapered off the home schooling and they gradually became legitimate college students.

 

6. Once into the Community College we realized that there was a special relationship between the Community Colleges and the state Universities.We realized that our kids could be finished with college by the time most kids were finished with high school. 

 

7. Economically, this made a lot of sense, since although we were not poor, I had no great desire to give away $200,000 for undergraduate educations for each of our kids, and another $200,000 for each of their graduate/professional schools. I should mention that my family did not qualify for financial aid. 

 

8.Because at the beginning I and my wife took some of the courses with our kids, I came to quickly realize that the level of teaching at Tunxis was equal or superior to what I remembered from Penn. The classes were smaller, no big lecture halls, and the teachers were generally better since their thing was teaching not research. Some of the teachers we had were amazing. As it turned out I continued taking courses, although not with my kids, and I truly enjoyed almost all of them.

 

9. Because of the special relationship between UConn and the community colleges, transferring was relatively easy. 100% of the courses transferred for credit. Some of the courses although not strictly identical to UConn courses were given credit as upper level courses to meet certain major requirements. The only requirements we had any trouble with were something called the CLAS requirements at UConn. My kids did have to take some duplicate courses because the CLAS administrators were somewhat unreasonable. I should also point out that UConn maintains a school by school database of courses at the community colleges and their UConn equivalents which is very helpful.

 

10. IMO colleges have become what High Schools used to be. A college degree today is the equivalent of what a high school diploma was 50 years ago. It can qualify you for a job at the rent a car place. The only college degrees that mean anything are those from the big name schools. Certainly a bachelor's from Wharton can start you at $160,000 per year, but a degree in art history from State U is lucky to get you $20,000 per year. What really counts is graduate/professional school. Further, for law schools if your goal is not to work in a major law firm or teach law then all degrees punch your ticket to the bar exam. Pass the bar exam and you can do your thing. Attorneys in Connecticut usually start around $80,000. The thought of my kids making $80,000 at age 22 is not unpleasant. Especially if they are doing what they want to do.

 

11. The kids are anxious to leave school behind them and start making a difference in the real world.  I am all for that. If after some years they want to try something different, they still have ample time to do that. Early college gives you lots of flexibility. If your goal is to be at the top of your class at Harvard Law, early college is probably not for you. If your goal is to get into a profession as soon as possible, allez-y!

[Vegesaurus Rex]

Not Vegesaurus but I'll give you my take on this if you're interested. I agree that, at least for mathematics, entering as an undergrad at a high level (at whatever age that can be achieved) is much more preferable. All of the top math students that my son has come into contact with (through school, conferences, REUs) entered college extremely advanced. Competitive students (in the US at least) for top math graduate schools have usually taken numerous graduate level courses. That's difficult to accomplish if you enter college only at the calculus level. My son is starting his third year and has taken somewhere around 10 graduate classes. He attended a rather selective program this summer with students that he considers his future grad school "competitors" and he was not an outlier there. They all had taken many graduate classes.

 

Research is also important for grad schools and there is really very little research a math undergrad can do, at least in pure math, without a lot of advanced knowledge.

 

My son is not interested in competition math so I can't speak to that. There are some benefits for top IMO scorers when it comes to undergrad admissions. But more importantly, if these competitions are very important to your son, then that alone would be enough to delay college entrance in my opinion. Life is short. If math competitions are a passion then I would encourage my son to pursue that now when he can. Keep in mind though, math competitions don't end at undergrad college entrance. Undergrads can take the Putnam exam. Top scorers on that exam get benefits in grad school applications.

 

As far as wanting to focus on math to the exclusion of all else, that to me would be a very telling sign that early entrance was a good move for a student. My son lives and breathes math. It is not a sacrifice to him at all to be so involved in the subject. If your son would feel like he was being forced to give up other interests then he probably would be better served by delaying college entrance for awhile.

 

Hope that helps somewhat.

 

Butler,

 

Very nice that you are here.  I was told that you also were a parent of an early college student, but were much less arrogant than I am. (I guess you can see what kind of time I have been having here.)

 

Several people have contacted me for private conversations, so I do feel glad I came here. My goal was to help other home schoolers with early college. In case you didn't know, I have two kids, one got a Bachelors at 18 the other at 19. Both were honors. One is now finishing up law school at age 22, and the other is now applying for law school at age 19.

 

As your son seems to be a math major, the two of us would seem to make an excellent resource for home schoolers who are interested in early college. My kids were Classics, English and Biology majors. I take it your kid wants to go to grad school in math. Is he interested in teaching?  Has he thought about career goals?

 

Very happy you are on this board.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I'll give you the precis: like your experience, it's very specific to places, times and an individual child, so it's not something that could be replicated; I've been on these boards or ten years, so it's a fairly well-known story

 

- 'Calvin' born in London, moved to Hong Kong as a baby; precocious

- Tested gifted/learning disabled; tried a mainstream school for one year; Montessori for one year; Montessori part time for a year; OT for three years

- Moved to China; home educated for five years; moved to Scotland; home educated for two more years

- Started taking UK-system 'High School' level exams at 11.  

- Lacking peers and mentors, started 'high school' at a mildly-selective private school at 13.  Trod water in academics for a year or two but learned a lot socially and organisationally.  He decided he wanted to go to Oxford or Cambridge

- He researched and entered a national poetry competition; chosen as runner up.

- Studied for the IB.  One brilliant teacher but the school is generally clueless about the specific entry requirements for Oxford.  I found him extra mentors and did a lot of prep with him myself.

- He got into Oxford; started on Monday.

 

L

 

Wonderful!  I agree, his resume is certainly unique. What is he majoring in? By "high school exams" do you mean O-Levels? Does Oxford require A-Levels? If so,which ones did your son sit for?

[Runningmom80]

This is probably a really stupid question, but why are the financials so much different for early entrance? Is it because of dual enrollment where the online high school pays? (Assuming an online umbrella school is being used as "homeschooling" is mentioned along with early enrollment.)

[Vegesaurus Rex]

This is probably a really stupid question, but why are the financials so much different for early entrance? Is it because of dual enrollment where the online high school pays? (Assuming an online umbrella school is being used as "homeschooling" is mentioned along with early enrollment.)

 

It is not a stupid question it is on the other hand something very important to consider.

 

I have always said that the most widely-believed, but false myth is that public high schools are free.

 

They are not.  For four years they keep your kids in a cage and generally stunt their interest in things that matter, such as real learning and understanding.

 

Four years is a long sentence to serve. Could you use that time more economically and more efficiently? 

 

Certainly. 

 

When we started Community College, courses cost about $300 each, and there were annual activity fees of a few hundred dollars. That has about doubled now, but even so, Community College courses are still much cheaper than most four year colleges.

 

To earn your Associate's Degree, you need to take 20 courses of three hours each. Let's say that costs $12,000 in tuition. ($600 X 20)  There are other costs such as transportation, gasoline, books etc. Let's say that adds up to another $8,000.  So you get two years of college for $20,000, hypothetically.  If you had gone to a state University for those two years, the cost of two years would be (Taking UConn in-state tuition as an example) Tuition: $20,000, university fees, $6,000, dorm and meals $24,000, books and misc $6,000 or about $56,000 for two years.  This is about half of what an Ivy school would cost. 

 

So you are comparing expenditures of $20,000 against $56,000 or $120,000.

 

But even more important is you are doing this when the kid would otherwise be wasting his time in high school. So instead of wasting 4 years, he is spending two to four years to shave at least $30,000 off of his tuition.  This is not trivial.

 

In addition, taking my kids for example, they expect to be out practicing law at age 22 earning about $80,000. They are actually getting several more years of earning power by early college (and early graduation.)

[Laura Corin]

Wonderful!  I agree, his resume is certainly unique. What is he majoring in? By "high school exams" do you mean O-Levels? Does Oxford require A-Levels? If so,which ones did your son sit for?

 

The high school exams that he started taking when he was eleven were GCSEs, which are usually taken at age 16.  O levels no longer exist in the UK, although they are still taken in Singapore, I believe, and perhaps in other former colonies.

 

Oxford/Cambridge require top scores in A levels or their equivalent.  US candidates can use APs, although there is some chat about APs being difficult to use to enter science degrees.  He used his IB score; he studied English, Latin and HIstory at higher level; maths, biology and French at standard level.  

 

Oxford also sets its own exams in the subjects applied for; these are higher level than A levels.  In addition you submit essays written at school.  Finally you have faculty interviews - Calvin had five separate interviews over five days in Oxford.  The interviews were with the individual tutors (professors in US terms)  with whom he will be studying one-on-one.  The application process was strictly academic, with no weight given to any extra-curricular activities, unless they were directly related to the course applied for - like his poetry.

 

He's studying English and Classics, which is an integrated course with a strong cultural comparative element.  I think that they very much liked his overseas upbringing, triple 'citizenship' (UK/US plus right to reside in Hong Kong), and his growing up in two languages.

 

L

[1053]

Undergrads can take the Putnam exam.

Putnam exam is only in USA and Canada.

 

[Vegesaurus Rex]

The high school exams that he started taking when he was eleven were GCSEs, which are usually taken at age 16.  O levels no longer exist in the UK, although they are still taken in Singapore, I believe, and perhaps in other former colonies.

 

Oxford/Cambridge require top scores in A levels or their equivalent.  US candidates can use APs, although there is some chat about APs being difficult to use to enter science degrees.  He used his IB score; he studied English, Latin and HIstory at higher level; maths, biology and French at standard level.  

 

Oxford also sets its own exams in the subjects applied for; these are higher level than A levels.  In addition you submit essays written at school.  Finally you have faculty interviews - Calvin had five separate interviews over five days in Oxford.  The interviews were with the individual tutors (professors in US terms)  with whom he will be studying one-on-one.  The application process was strictly academic, with no weight given to any extra-curricular activities, unless they were directly related to the course applied for - like his poetry.

 

He's studying English and Classics, which is an integrated course with a strong cultural comparative element.  I think that they very much liked his overseas upbringing, triple 'citizenship' (UK/US plus right to reside in Hong Kong), and his growing up in two languages.

 

L

 

Wow! That is such a wonderful educational trajectory. Thank you for the insight as to how Oxford works. It is somewhat similar to the Ivy League in the USA,  with a couple of important exceptions - as you hinted at, extracurricular activities tend to be looked at more seriously here. Also,  although I have been out of the alumni network for some years, generally only one interview was required. Any time you feel like giving updates on what he is studying, I for one would be delighted to hear them.

[regentrude]

 

10. IMO colleges have become what High Schools used to be. A college degree today is the equivalent of what a high school diploma was 50 years ago. It can qualify you for a job at the rent a car place. The only college degrees that mean anything are those from the big name schools. Certainly a bachelor's from Wharton can start you at $160,000 per year, but a degree in art history from State U is lucky to get you $20,000 per year.

 

I just want to comment on this not because I am picking on you, because the bolded is incorrect.

The graduates at the public four year university where I teach begin their careers with an average starting salary of $ 60,000.

 

It is not so much what school the student attends, but what kind of degree he is getting. I doubt an art history BA from Wharton Penn (sorry for mistyping) makes 160k either.

Saying that only degrees from big name schools mean anything is simply untrue, and propagating such misinformation does a disservice to most students who either would not qualify for big name schools, or whose families can not afford such institutions.

 

There are plenty of not-so-big-name schools where students can attain college degrees that gives them a comfortable starting salary in a job in their field. Most people who lead productive lives and have careers that can support their families do NOT have degrees from these schools.

[1053]

Terry Tao was at least at the 99.999999th percentile in math, and he patiently waited and finally started university at age 13.

 

Those of us with kids at (maybe) the 99.99th percentile in math should keep it in perspective that our kids are rather more common, and there is a lot of competition out there, and jumping in too early could be a mistake.

 

Our plan is to use all the AoPS books/courses, then take math courses at the local public uni (if they'll allow it), and then try for "elite" unis at around the normal age.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I just want to comment on this not because I am picking on you, because the bolded is incorrect.

The graduates at the public four year university where I teach begin their careers with an average starting salary of $ 60,000.

 

It is not so much what school the student attends, but what kind of degree he is getting. I doubt an art history BA from Wharton makes 160k either.

Saying that only degrees from big name schools mean anything is simply untrue, and propagating such misinformation does a disservice to most students who either would not qualify for big name schools, or whose families can not afford such institutions.

 

There are plenty of not-so-big-name schools where students can attain college degrees that gives them a comfortable starting salary in a job in their field. Most people who lead productive lives and have careers that can support their families do NOT have degrees from these schools.

 

I am not propagating misinformation.  It is you who do not know what you are talking about. 

 

First of all, there is no such thing as a "History BA from Wharton."  Such a creature does not exist, and never has.  I suggest you Google Wharton then come back and apologize for your misinformation. 

 

Second, I would be interested in seeing statistics from whatever four year university you are talking about showing that the AVERAGE  starting salary for all subjects at that University is $60,000.

 

This is exactly the kind of post that I would normally ignore. And I will in the future.

[8filltheheart]

This is probably a really stupid question, but why are the financials so much different for early entrance? Is it because of dual enrollment where the online high school pays? (Assuming an online umbrella school is being used as "homeschooling" is mentioned along with early enrollment.)

I'm not sure I understand your question as worded. Are you wondering about financial aid? Students are ineligible for financial aid until they are no longer high school students. DE being funded by the state is definitely state dependent. Not all states fund DE. If your state doesnt, DE has to be paid directly by the parents.

 

The scenario that VR is presenting is definitely a valid one, but it is only one.

 

There are alternative scenarios. For families that are in a lower income bracket, elite universities that offer huge financial aid packages can end up being significantly lower in cost than the in-state flagship. Those schools are also the same ones that won't accept transfer CC credit and students will need 4 yrs to graduate. But getting admitted is tough. Early graduation typically is not going to benefit your student in the admissions process b/c there are so many stellar students competing for such a few spots. Early graduates are rarely going to stand out bc they haven't had as many yrs to accomplish as much as the other applicants.

 

The scenario can also be very different for different majors. There are upsides to earning your AA and transferring, but there are also downsides. Students need to go in with their eyes wide open. Students who complete their AA in general engineering at a local CC might be guaranteed admission into the state flagship's engineering school, but they are not typically guaranteed admission into their chosen engineering field. Transfer students do not have priority registration. The university's students get to register before incoming students. Many engineering classes are only offered fall only/spring only and if sections are full, not getting into the sequence can throw off graduation for an entire yr.

 

And our own experience is in terms of scholarship $$ and acceptance into select honors programs. For example, our ds graduated with 51 hrs of college credit. We paid for those hrs directly. He is attending school now on full scholarship. He could easily complete his physics degree in 2 yrs, but he has made the decision to not finish his undergrad early. Why? His undergrad is fully paid. The honors program he is in is a research program. It takes all 4 yrs for students to complete the program and their undergrad research is funded through the program. He can focus lots of time on his research and take multiple grad level courses in physics. Undergrad research plays a huge factor in grad school admissions. Early graduation will not help him in any way. It would ultimately hurt his long-term goals, not help them.

 

You really need to assess the full picture and know exactly what the choices are impacting. There is no single right answer. Every scenario is unique. For example, the one I shared about financial aid and top rated schools does not help if families have a high expected family contribution and the families cannot afford to pay their EFC. Being admitted is only part of the scenario. Being able to pay is the other.

[Runningmom80]

My question stemmed from the implications that early enrollment would be cheaper.  I was under the assumption that the "early" part had something to do with it, but it seems it's because the student attends CC for 2 years instead of  4 years at a uni.  (I actually did the same, as someone who graduated at 18 with no parental support as far as continuing education, to save money.)

 

I do know that there are opportunities to dual enroll, and the school pays for the CC classes.

 

ETA: The online calculators for financial aid that I've been filling out for myself to return to school have not been kind.  I'm guessing when DS goes to college, they will be even less so.  I'm confident he will be able to receive some help in the form of scholarships, but nothing is guaranteed. I'm the lady always asking the money question in these college threads, because I'm starting to freak out about it! :laugh:

[8filltheheart]

I am not propagating misinformation. It is you who do not know what you are talking about.

 

First of all, there is no such thing as a "History BA from Wharton." Such a creature does not exist, and never has. I suggest you Google Wharton then come back and apologize for your misinformation.

 

Second, I would be interested in seeing statistics from whatever four year university you are talking about showing that the AVERAGE starting salary for all subjects at that University is $60,000.

 

This is exactly the kind of post that I would normally ignore. And I will in the future.

Regentrude is a physics professor at a technical university. It wouldn't surprise me if that is the avg starting salary for her university's grads. It is not unusual for new engineers graduating with their bachelors to make more than what you are stating your kids will be making when they graduate with their law degrees. That is our real life experience anyway.

 

ETA: I would estimate that the avg starting engineering salary across all engineering field is probably pretty close to around $60000. Different fields start at different ranges.

[regentrude]

I am not propagating misinformation.  It is you who do not know what you are talking about. 

 

First of all, there is no such thing as a "History BA from Wharton."  Such a creature does not exist, and never has.  I suggest you Google Wharton then come back and apologize for your misinformation. 

 

I am sorry for mistyping. I meant Penn. (Fond memories; I spent some time at Penn's Materials Research Lab.)

My point is that it is not useful to compare a business degree with an art history degree. The difference is not due to one being a big name school and the other being a state school, but solely to major. Apples and oranges.

 

Second, I would be interested in seeing statistics from whatever four year university you are talking about showing that the AVERAGE  starting salary for all subjects at that University is $60,000.

 

For privacy reasons, I will not publicly post the institution where I teach. If you look at the Payscale ratings, however, you can find several public institutions with starting salaries like this. Colorado School of Mines, for example, has an average starting salary of 67k.

http://careers.mines.edu/Files/2013-2014%20Annual%20Outcomes%20and%20Salary%20Survey.pdf

But of course, those would not be art history majors either.

 

[8filltheheart]

My question stemmed from the implications that early enrollment would be cheaper. I was under the assumption that the "early" part had something to do with it, but it seems it's because the student attends CC for 2 years instead of 4 years at a uni. (I actually did the same, as someone who graduated at 18 with no parental support as far as continuing education, to save money.)

 

I do know that there are opportunities to dual enroll, and the school pays for the CC classes.

That is such a great opportunity. To have DE funded is a huge blessing. BUT.....keep in mind that their is still a difference between DE and early college. I don't think ANYONE on this thread disagrees with DE as an option (where might be disagreed with and what subjects to take) but DE means that the student is still a high school student and not a graduate. DE and graduating with an AA is very common and not really that unusual at all.

[1053]

What is "DE"?