Early College

[regentrude]

What is "DE"?

 

Dual enrollment. In this context, it means taking college courses during high school.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

I am sorry for mistyping. I meant Penn. (Fond memories; I spent some time at Penn's Materials Research Lab.)

My point is that it is not useful to compare a business degree with an art history degree. The difference is not due to one being a big name school and the other being a state school, but solely to major. Apples and oranges.

 

 

For privacy reasons, I will not publicly post the institution where I teach. If you look at the Payscale ratings, however, you can find several public institutions with starting salaries like this. Colorado School of Mines, for example, has an average starting salary of 67k.

http://careers.mines.edu/Files/2013-2014%20Annual%20Outcomes%20and%20Salary%20Survey.pdf

But of course, those would not be art history majors either.

 

Colorado School of Mines is an ENGINEERING SCHOOL. And it is very specialized, just like Wharton.  Of course it is going to have higher salaries.  You said a a four year public university. Well since you seem to be in Colorado, lets look at the University of Colorado average starting salary:  $40,000.

 

http://www.colorado.edu/pba/aftergrad/

[Crimson Wife]

This is probably a really stupid question, but why are the financials so much different for early entrance? Is it because of dual enrollment where the online high school pays? (Assuming an online umbrella school is being used as "homeschooling" is mentioned along with early enrollment.)

 

The community college where I live is I believe $46/credit. A year at Cal State LA's early entrance program would be around $5k. Compare this to spending $30+k/year for private high school and $50+k/yr. for an elite college.

 

So yes, it really *IS* that big of a financial difference. Sure, we could always send DD to CSU when she's 17, but if we waited, I don't think the school would be a good "fit" for her.

[8filltheheart]

What is "DE"?

Dual enrollment. It means taking college classes while still in high school. Different states have different rules. Some allow students to take classes to count as both high school credit and college credit. Some will only allow students to take courses if they have finished the required high school requirements. Some CCs and universities only allow students to take classes from a specific pre-approved list. Others will let them take whatever they are qualified to take. Some universities will allow students to transfer in credit for DE courses taken during high school; some don't. It isn't something that has a single answer.

[regentrude]

Colorado School of Mines is an ENGINEERING SCHOOL. And it is very specialized, just like Wharton.  Of course it is going to have higher salaries.  You said a a four year public university. Well since you seem to be in Colorado, lets look at the University of Colorado average starting salary:  $40,000.

 

http://www.colorado.edu/pba/aftergrad/

 

There are public four year universities that have a focus on engineering (I am not sure what part of public + four year + university would exclude that the school has a specialization).

The above is actually precisely my point: the deciding factor is the major, not whether it's a big name.

[Kerileanne99]

I am sorry for mistyping. I meant Penn. (Fond memories; I spent some time at Penn's Materials Research Lab.)

My point is that it is not useful to compare a business degree with an art history degree. The difference is not due to one being a big name school and the other being a state school, but solely to major. Apples and oranges.

 

 

For privacy reasons, I will not publicly post the institution where I teach. If you look at the Payscale ratings, however, you can find several public institutions with starting salaries like this. Colorado School of Mines, for example, has an average starting salary of 67k.

http://careers.mines.edu/Files/2013-2014%20Annual%20Outcomes%20and%20Salary%20Survey.pdf

Regentrude,

Your graciousness in your response is just an example of why I *Love* this subforum.

 

Vegesaurus Rex,

I am truly glad that you have come to this forum to put yourself out there with your perspective and experience. It really is/will be valued. Of all the forums in the WTM, I really believe that the accelerated subforum has the best collection of intelligent, informed, and critical-thinking folks. No, not everyone agrees on any one method or path--and therein lies the value! Regardless of their experience, I can assure you that each is the result of endless researching and agonizing, soul-searching analysis of what is best their particular child.

 

I have a young child who is extremely accelerated across the boards...I have no idea what the future holds for her as I find it difficult to plan more than six weeks out at this point. However, some form of DE or early college may very well be necessary for her much sooner than I would like to think about. I hope that you will stick around to offer your valuable advice--but will help keep the tone of this forum respectful and kind, even in disagreement, as it is a safe place for many of us.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

There are public four year universities that have a focus on engineering (I am not sure what part of public + four year + university would exclude that the school has a specialization).

The above is actually precisely my point: the deciding factor is the major, not whether it's a big name.

 

 

What I said was that big name schools command more money. Wharton is a big name school.

 

MIT is a big name School

 

http://web.mit.edu/facts/alum.html

 

Harvard is a big name school

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-28/average-harvard-graduate-will-make-60000-their-first-job-and-other-crimson-trivia

 

Compare those to the University of Colorado which is not a big name school.

[Vegesaurus Rex]

nm

Edited October 11, 2014 by Susan Wise Bauer
Your tone is not in line with this board. Please consult Community Guidelines.

[regentrude]

What I said was that big name schools command more money. Wharton is a big name school.

 

I am not disputing that, in some disciplines, a degree from a big name school gets more money.

But what you said in the post to which I responded was

 

The only college degrees that mean anything are those from the big name schools.

(bolded emphasis mine)

 

This is insulting to many posters on this board who either earned degrees, work at, or have children who study at, or graduated from, other than big name schools.

 

[8filltheheart]

10. IMO colleges have become what High Schools used to be. A college degree today is the equivalent of what a high school diploma was 50 years ago. It can qualify you for a job at the rent a car place. The only college degrees that mean anything are those from the big name schools. Certainly a bachelor's from Wharton can start you at $160,000 per year, but a degree in art history from State U is lucky to get you $20,000 per year. What really counts is graduate/professional school.

 

This quote is why people are responding to your posts in a way which seems to be frustrating you. This is a generalization which is not completely accurate. The name of the university is not really important for an engineering degree. ABET certified is important. How industry views the schools graduates matters. Typically co-op experience and GPA matter. Graduate and professional school are not really that important for most engineering jobs. Grad school is going to matter only for specific career objectives--research, for example.

 

ETA: I also wanted to point out that it doesn't even take 4 yr degree to make a decent salary. Our dd is a COTA which is essentially a 2yr program and she earns a hefty income.

 

My question stemmed from the implications that early enrollment would be cheaper. I was under the assumption that the "early" part had something to do with it, but it seems it's because the student attends CC for 2 years instead of 4 years at a uni. (I actually did the same, as someone who graduated at 18 with no parental support as far as continuing education, to save money.)

 

I do know that there are opportunities to dual enroll, and the school pays for the CC classes.

 

ETA: The online calculators for financial aid that I've been filling out for myself to return to school have not been kind. I'm guessing when DS goes to college, they will be even less so. I'm confident he will be able to receive some help in the form of scholarships, but nothing is guaranteed. I'm the lady always asking the money question in these college threads, because I'm starting to freak out about it! :laugh:

Finances are a huge issue for us as well. We can't afford to pay our EFC. It is why aiming for scholarships is so important for our kids and why I have pointed out that early graduation can impact those opportunities.

[1053]

What is "DE"?

Dual enrollment. In this context, it means taking college courses during high school.

Dual enrollment. It means taking college classes while still in high school. Different states have different rules. Some allow students to take classes to count as both high school credit and college credit. Some will only allow students to take courses if they have finished the required high school requirements. Some CCs and universities only allow students to take classes from a specific pre-approved list. Others will let them take whatever they are qualified to take. Some universities will allow students to transfer in credit for DE courses taken during high school; some don't. It isn't something that has a single answer.

 

Thanks. I guess the term may not necessarily apply to a homeschooler who takes some individual college classes. When they later apply to some college as a full time student, the admitting univesity may or may not recognize their prior coursework for admittance purposes, and they may or may not recognize their prior coursework for course credit at the new uni.

 

[8filltheheart]

Thanks. I guess the term may not necessarily apply to a homeschooler who takes some individual college classes. When they later apply to some college as a full time student, the admitting univesity may or may not recognize their prior coursework for admittance purposes, and they may or may not recognize their prior coursework for course credit at the new uni.

 

It would be the term applied to a homeschooler taking individual college classes. Our kids have all DE at some point during high school. My kids have all attended universities that have accepted their prior coursework. But, yes, there are definitely universities that won't.

[1053]

Finances are a huge issue for us as well. We can't afford to pay our EFC. It is why aiming for scholarships is so important for our kids and why I have pointed out that early graduation can impact those opportunities.

 

Our income is modest and after looking into it we've realized that the elite unis are about the only ones we can afford! So it comes down to whether you can get accepted at all. This is very difficult at any age. Attempting to do so early is not plausible.

 

[8filltheheart]

Our income is modest and after looking into it we've realized that the elite unis are about the only ones we can afford! So it comes down to whether you can get accepted at all. This is very difficult at any age. Attempting to do so early is not plausible.

 

Yep. They can be a good deal for lower income families. Being competitive definitely increases w/o early graduation.

 

When your child is old enough to apply, make sure that you apply to safeties with excellent merit awards. That will ensure you are covered in both directions.

[1053]

Yep. They can be a good deal for lower income families. Being competitive definitely increases w/o early graduation.

 

When your child is old enough to apply, make sure that you apply to safeties with excellent merit awards. That will ensure you are covered in both directions.

 

Thanks. Our oldest is only 8 so this is many years off for us, but looking into all the issues now (admittance and pricing) has convinced me to aim for full time college, at the best possible uni, at about the normal age (18ish), but to build a strong case by taking individual courses at the local, decent not great, state uni (starting 13ish).

 

Yes, we should look at merit awards at out of state state unis, and of course that financial landscape could change over the years. The "net price calculators" were making these unis look very expensive.

 

[Butler]

Terry Tao was at least at the 99.999999th percentile in math, and he patiently waited and finally started university at age 13.

 

Those of us with kids at (maybe) the 99.99th percentile in math should keep it in perspective that our kids are rather more common, and there is a lot of competition out there, and jumping in too early could be a mistake.

 

Our plan is to use all the AoPS books/courses, then take math courses at the local public uni (if they'll allow it), and then try for "elite" unis at around the normal age.

But - and this has also been discussed may times on this forum - getting accepted to an elite university, at any age, does not matter at all unless you are poor enough or rich enough to attend. If the finances aren't there, and still won't be when a child is 18, then it would behoove the parents to have some other plans in place.

 

(though Tao didn't formally enroll as a university student until 13, he started taking university math classes at 9 as a dual enrollment student)

[Butler]

Putnam exam is only in USA and Canada.

 

Yes, but I thought Lewelma was open to her son possibly attending university in the US?

[wapiti]

10. IMO colleges have become what High Schools used to be. A college degree today is the equivalent of what a high school diploma was 50 years ago. It can qualify you for a job at the rent a car place. The only college degrees that mean anything are those from the big name schools. Certainly a bachelor's from Wharton can start you at $160,000 per year, but a degree in art history from State U is lucky to get you $20,000 per year. What really counts is graduate/professional school. Further, for law schools if your goal is not to work in a major law firm or teach law then all degrees punch your ticket to the bar exam. Pass the bar exam and you can do your thing. Attorneys in Connecticut usually start around $80,000. The thought of my kids making $80,000 at age 22 is not unpleasant. Especially if they are doing what they want to do.

FWIW, I agree with you that to some extent, a college liberal arts degree may be equivalent to a high school diploma from decades ago, but that's more a function of the employment market combined with the lame education offered at average public high schools across the country at present. I do not agree that there is a dichotomy between big name schools (what are we referring to, Ivy and Ivy-like institutions? Top 10 undergrad universities?) and all other schools and that all other schools are basically equal. IMO, there is a continuum from the top on down - there are many "better" colleges in this country besides the tippy-top schools, e.g. other highly selective schools, selective schools and as mentioned, there are all sorts of differences by program/major, where an otherwise not-very-selective school has well-respected programs in particular areas (I don't really know, but I wouldn't be surprised if such top programs were more selective than the school's published admissions numbers across the board might indicate; since y'all mentioned it, CO Mines is such an example.)

 

Eta, I do think there is such a dichotomy for law schools, but undergrads are far too varied and numerous.

 

11. The kids are anxious to leave school behind them and start making a difference in the real world. I am all for that. If after some years they want to try something different, they still have ample time to do that. Early college gives you lots of flexibility.

It's a trade-off, no? I see early college as incredibly limiting flexibility, because its usefulness depends entirely on knowing at an early age - with certainty and a reliable degree of accuracy - what field one wants to specialize in and whether and what sort of grad school one is considering. (...in my own case, law school wasn't even on my radar until I was about 25! My undergrad major was economics, which I chose because it sounded cool and because...it was my oldest brother's major. Not that I didn't appreciate econ, but it never occurred to me to major in anything else. For example, I had a sort of minor in CS, which I loved, but why didn't I double major or consider switching? I lacked perspective and had no guidance or wisdom or other career exposure coming from anywhere, so I naturally gravitated toward my older brother's footsteps at least during college)

 

There is also a trade-off with regard to the intellectual level of the peers one would have in an early college scenario compared to college at someplace more selective on the continuum, to which admission might be possible closer to the traditional time. On the one hand, the level of work done in early college would exceed that of a B&M high school, hopefully, though homeschoolers have so many more options (e.g. MOOCs, DE, AoPS, etc.).

 

On the other hand, however, I honestly do not believe that an undergrad degree earned at 18 will have yielded the same level of intellectual development as an undergrad degree earned at 22 not only for the reason of peer exposure but also the difference in the quality of work the student is able to complete during those different developmental stages. In other words, I think the student would get more out of normal college than early college. So paper-degree-box-checking is also at odds with intellectual development, and which is more in line with one's goals will weigh heavily.

 

BTW, don't think of this as arguing, just fleshing out the discussion. The balance may have weighed in one direction for your family, but will weigh in the other for many families reading this, families who also have very bright kids. If you want to share, discussing how the various factors weighed out could be helpful to some, including acknowledging all the advantages and disadvantages. (As for my kids, we are planning on a private high school with a DE option should that become necessary. Though I think my dh would be thrilled, for financial reasons, should any of our rather mathy kids choose CO Mines as we are local, I would not be surprised if they all end up out of state, at the traditional age.)

[1053]

But - and this has also been discussed may times on this forum - getting accepted to an elite university, at any age, does not matter at all unless you are poor enough or rich enough to attend. If the finances aren't there, and still won't be when a child is 18, then it would behoove the parents to have some other plans in place.

 

(though Tao didn't formally enroll as a university student until 13, he started taking university math classes at 9 as a dual enrollment student)

 

Absolutely, the finances are a major factor, which affects which unis you look at, and I suppose that in turn could affect the timing to. We happen to be "poor" enough to be able to afford the elite unis (unless we're "unlucky" and increase our income :).) But you and others are right to suggest we look into merit awards at the better state unis (not our local one).

 

My point about the Terry Tao case is that it's held up as a major success story in terms of getting the timing right for educational steps for an extremely precocious child. Whatever a child's ability level, you want to get the timing right.

[Dmmetler]

One thing that concerns me is how the college is viewed at the graduate level. When Azusa Pacific offered their DE program for GT kids last year, I discussed it with DD's bio mentor, and her suggestion was to not do it, because AP (and similarly conservative schools) tend to work against a student for grad school in biology. The assumption, whether or not it's warranted, is that such a student's religious beliefs will negatively impact their ability to truly work in the field. She felt that it would be too big of a risk for DD.

 

I'm expecting to use some DE to validate high school levels of achievement, and, for things like chemistry, to give DD access to lab coursework beyond that I feel I can easily do at home. But I do want to make sure it's seen as an advantage, not a detriment. I really would rather her not take DE credit or AP credit out of anything in her major that is part of a course sequence because often what's taught at what point in a sequence differs dramatically from school to school. Most of DD's schools on her list (she has a constantly changing list of schools she likes) are out of state, so that's a real concern.  Given that, DE ends up being a kind of expensive way to get high school credits if we have to do so out of pocket.

 

My plan for the next couple of years is...I don't know. It's a little scary to have to worry about this when your child is planning her 10th birthday party!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1053]

Yes, but I thought Lewelma was open to her son possibly attending university in the US?

 

Unfortunately, for undergraduate, I don't think nonUSers would get any discounts, so that would be prohibitively expensive, and therefore probably not a plausbile option.

[EndOfOrdinary]

This is probably a really stupid question, but why are the financials so much different for early entrance? Is it because of dual enrollment where the online high school pays? (Assuming an online umbrella school is being used as "homeschooling" is mentioned along with early enrollment.)

 

In our state, Washington, the state pays for the entire dual enrollment as long as the student has junior status.  There is no age attached, and there does not need to be an umbrella school.  I call my son a junior, he gets free college at the local community college (or at a few if you are lucky enough to be near them).  He can still be considered a homeschooler.  Some four years accept the money as well, but they are only when you live really close to the university.  We have to pay for books and supplies, but then the tuition is covered. 

 

The big decision comes with when you declare your child a junior.  It is one you cannot go back from and that is the kicker for us.  If I call my 12 year old a junior, enroll him in college, he gets two years paid regardless of how many credits he takes.  If it doesn't work out, the state still considers him a junior and that was our shot at DE through the state.  So if we accept any money Ds has to be ready to handle the load and we have to be ready to say that in two years he is graduating.

[Barbara H]

This is probably a really stupid question, but why are the financials so much different for early entrance? Is it because of dual enrollment where the online high school pays? (Assuming an online umbrella school is being used as "homeschooling" is mentioned along with early enrollment.)

 

That is not at all stupid - it is an excellent question with a pretty complex and varied answer.  As a consultant, I work with homeschoolers, including early entrants, from around the country and we always look at this question on a case by case basis. Some states have allow high school students to take college courses under dual enrollment programs. In states like Minnesota, California, Florida students can earn a significant amount of credit this way for little or no cost. Limitations vary from state to state, but it can be a system that works very well. When the student graduates high school they may use those credits to shorter their time in college.

 

In other states the funding for dual enrollment programs is much more limited or the programs may be entirely nonexistent. We had a child start dual enrollment quite young and there was no price break on that at all because our state did not offer any formal dual enrollment options. Part time students can't get federal financial aid and they aren't eligible for most scholarships.

 

There is also a real concern that when students enter full time college early it can be difficult for them to compete for merit scholarships and/or admissions to selective schools. Having a full four years in high school helps make students more competitive - in academics, testing, extracurriculars. That is true no matter what age a student is in high school. While in some circumstances the only/best option is to opt for sudden and unplanned grade skips or full time enrollment, it can significantly lower a student's competitiveness both for admissions and scholarships. It is not uncommon that parents of early college entrants will find their student's options are limited because it is simply hard to develop a competitive profile at a younger age no matter the student's level of talent. Also, geographic limitations may come in to play if there are not good local options.

 

Everyone's plan should be different based on their resources and options. Given the specific options we had available in our state we opted to take the following steps to make early college more affordable.

 

1. Extending a period of informal audit status - sitting in on classes keeping the brain alive, but not worrying about credit.  (Dmmetler - it sounds like this might be where you are right now).

 

2. Part time dual enrollment for a while  - paid for out of pocket so we kept that to part time.

 

3. Planning to maximizing scholarship eligibility at the time of full time enrollment. We did that by looking carefully at the timing of grade skips. Our goal was to time full time college entrance when the student would be competitive for merit scholarships. Fortunately, it worked out just as we'd planned.

 

I hope that wasn't too confusing and I'm glad to answer questions. The bottom line is that families are going the right thing by asking questions early and trying to sort through options. It varies a lot based on your student's interests, the dual enrollment options in your state, your local options for colleges, your finances, your student's testing ability, your student's personality, etc. etc. etc.  There are kids of absolutely equal smarts and academic ability, who will need different choices. It is great to learn about how other people navigated through these questions but always remember there are many different options even for different kids in the same family.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Finances are a huge issue for us as well. We can't afford to pay our EFC. It is why aiming for scholarships is so important for our kids and why I have pointed out that early graduation can impact those opportunities.

 

 

 

Our income is modest and after looking into it we've realized that the elite unis are about the only ones we can afford! So it comes down to whether you can get accepted at all. This is very difficult at any age. Attempting to do so early is not plausible.

 

 

Elite universities do indeed have very generous financial aid for low-to-moderate income families. If your family is in the <$75k range, absolutely consider applying to Ivy caliber schools.

 

Unfortunately, there are a lot of bright kids whose families make too high an income on paper to get need-based aid but not enough to actually afford tuition :-(

[SarahW]

Well, just add me to the list of negative naysayers.  ;)  But if you read the previous threads about DE/early college you probably already saw all my negativity there.

 

I got my BA a few months after I turned 20. Not sure if that's early enough to make me qualified enough to chime in here for you, nonetheless...

 

A BA at 20 DID NOT give me a head start. I'm in a liberal arts field which requires graduate degrees, and that early bachelors really worked against me. I floundered around for a few years picking up grad credits (and doing the research that would have much much cheaper to have done in undergrad) before finally getting my first MA at 25. After all the talk of "oh, you're so young! so advanced! etc." it was discouraging to struggle in grad studies because, yes, I did NOT have the experience and opportunities under my belt to move into an MA/PhD program.

 

I ended up starting DE at 15 simply because my mother didn't really know what to do with me, and CC is better than that dumb godless stupid sex-crazed public school, no? And homeschooled students are smarter savvier and better than all that, no? LOL. smh. Really, my public high school classes would have been better for me. In CC, let's see, my Comp 101 class read The Bluest Eye as the lit choice, and many of my classmates, despite taking that class for the 3rd or 4th time, really struggled to pass. The Soc 101 class was a joke. The prof talked about his grandkids the whole time, and when someone piped up to ask if that would be on the test, he told us to take out our textbooks and highlight certain sentences, because he just used the tests that came with the book, and those sentences were the answers.

 

My local high school, on the other hand, taught Latin, had good solid science and math classes, and the college-prep English classes read actual literature with much less graphic sexual content.

 

It's great if your local CC is a high quality one, and doesn't have worthless classes like the ones I experienced. And it's great if you help other homeschoolers in your area take advantage of that opportunity. But to say across the board that CC is best and high schools are worthless wastes of time is incredibly naive.

 

Furthermore, I am disturbed by the fact that you hand-waved away the possibility of young students getting low grades, and hence lower college (and high school) GPA's. When first applying to college (post high school graduation) the fact that my B's and C were earned when I was 15 or 16 were obvious. But when I applied to grad schools and have an application packet some 100 pages thick with multiple transcripts (I dumped that worthless CC and went further out of my way to a state Uni to finish up my DE, and then my private LAC I graduated from) that fact is quite a bit less obvious. And I believe many of my initial applications to MA/PhD programs were rejected because of it. And, like others said, even if they did put the pieces together (since I did try to point out that those classes were DE) admissions committees don't really care. They have way too many qualified applicants to take a chance on someone who couldn't hack a class, even if it was way outside the major, or was distance learning, or was nearly ten years prior, or whatever. They look for reasons to reject, and that gives them an easy reject. I had to take out lots of student loans to earn credentials that put a band-aid over those marks. Whatever money was "saved" by shaving two years off my BA was paid for many times over in the end.

 

If you can caution other homeschooling parents about this and other dangers of DE, please do! But so far I haven't seen you acknowledge any of these dangers, and that makes me very nervous. Maybe these things are just obvious to you, but they were not at all obvious to my parents, whose highest level of education was associates degrees earned at the CC with terrible classes.

 

Also, yes, college seems to be today's equivalent of high school, but not everywhere. There are a handful of fantastic high schools out there (most private, some public) that offer a superior education to some colleges. The "elite" (and other) colleges know this, and they select for those students. One of my great regrets is that, though I was fully capable, I was not offered the high school education I should have/could have had and really would have developed my abilities. My intention with my own children is to give them a rich and full education, and not short-change them by chasing down a piece of paper at the earliest possible moment.

 

Seriously, before you go around the internet saying that your way is the Best of All Possible Worlds I think you should wait until your kids are at least 30, and then ask them to give you a brutally honest assessment of their own education. 

 

 

[lewelma]

I'm back!  Did you miss  me? It is so hard to be 17 hours off, because I am sleeping when everyone else is talking!

 

Vegesauras, thanks so much for such a detailed response.  It really helped me see how your kids kind of slid into things - a few more classes each year adding up to an AA that then transferred to a 4 year.  You are absolutely right that that kind of detail in no way informs my son's entrance over here.  I actually will have no trouble getting him in, and like I said we can do it next year if need be.  So this conversation is very important to me as I have to decide by December if we will walk this path. We have an exam system here, so my son needs to do well in 5 12th-grade exams (which are somewhere between the SAT2 and AP level) and given his major he only has to *pass* the 11th grade (SAT2) english exam. We can do this next year when he is in 9th grade.  Then off he goes, and I wave good bye with a tear in my eye. 

 

So I don't need your help with getting him in -- I've got that covered.  What I need help with is the harder soul-searching question of 'should I?'  I know it is difficult on a public board to put out there all the options that you considered and their pros and cons, but I would really appreciate it if you would. 

 

Also because you are new to the board, let me give you a bit of background about me so that we can actually talk as I do think your experience would help me think through our options.  I am an American who emigrated *out* of America 19 years ago.  We did this for many reasons, but one of them was for lifestyle, as NZ is a less-competitive, less-economically-diversified, slower-moving society.  This has had its pros and cons, and the biggest con right now is the unexpected talent my ds has in maths.  NZ may just be too small for him, but that is another story. In the 1990s I attended an ivy league university in America and have a PhD in the sciences.  My family (including my parents, 3 sisters, and their spouses) have 7 PhDs, 2 MDs, 1 Dmin, and untold number of masters.  4 of my family members are currently professors in universities in America. My sister was the valedictorian of an ivy league at age 20 and finished her EE PhD at age 24 *with* a patent on the MRI. So although I live in NZ, I 'know' the American system, have seen early admission, and have considered my boy attending an American university.  This sounds like a big brag-athon, but it is not.  At some point it is just fact that my family is highly educated and thinks *hard* about the best way to help our children.  Clearly yours is the same.

 

I am sincere is wishing to hear about your struggles to decide the correct path for your children.  I know you came to the board offering help on how to get in at a young age, but what I think a lot of us need is help with the more nebulous and difficult question of whether we *should* pursue this path.  All of us here are trying to do what is best for our children, but defining 'best' is often very difficult. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[lewelma]

Not Vegesaurus but I'll give you my take on this if you're interested. I agree that, at least for mathematics, entering as an undergrad at a high level (at whatever age that can be achieved) is much more preferable. All of the top math students that my son has come into contact with (through school, conferences, REUs) entered college extremely advanced. Competitive students (in the US at least) for top math graduate schools have usually taken numerous graduate level courses. That's difficult to accomplish if you enter college only at the calculus level. My son is starting his third year and has taken somewhere around 10 graduate classes. He attended a rather selective program this summer with students that he considers his future grad school "competitors" and he was not an outlier there. They all had taken many graduate classes.

 

Research is also important for grad schools and there is really very little research a math undergrad can do, at least in pure math, without a lot of advanced knowledge.

 

 

Oh, Butler, thanks so much for your thoughts. :001_smile:   It seems that at least for math, taking grad classes as an undergrad helps with getting into grad school and helps with being able to do some research as an undergrad.  I only know of one math story in NZ and that is about the only kid to every get a gold at the IMO.  University of Auckland gave him a full scholarship; he published 3 papers as an undergrad, was accepted into all 10 graduate school to which he applied, and is currently at Princeton for his PhD.  So although NZ is small, they take care of their own.  Just yesterday my ds finished up his math portfolio and we sent it to the head of school.  Hopefully we will meet with him next week.

 

As far as wanting to focus on math to the exclusion of all else, that to me would be a very telling sign that early entrance was a good move for a student. My son lives and breathes math. It is not a sacrifice to him at all to be so involved in the subject. If your son would feel like he was being forced to give up other interests then he probably would be better served by delaying college entrance for awhile.

 

Thanks for this.  I've been torn about him specializing so early and ran a huge thread about whether I should encourage him to stay broad for a while or cave to his desire to specialize.  But just last month he finally 'cried uncle.'  He was taking 2 AoPS classes and then the IMO camp selection exam came out 2 weeks earlier than expected.  So he ramped it up to about 7 hours a days for 3 weeks.  Afterwards, he told me that he had missed doing his other subjects. :001_smile:   So right now he stays satisfied with 4 hours of math a day.  This really helped me to know that I was on the right track to keep him broad for at least a while longer.  Kids need guidance because they don't actually know themselves yet. The problem is that the moment you really understand them, they change!

 

He is enjoying the competitions for now, so sounds like I should encourage it until he grows weary of it.  Next one is the BMO.  He has to do better than last time, when he scored a 1!

 

Thanks again.

[lewelma]

Ok, one more from me.  Can I just say that I am so pleased that NZ universities are CHEAP.  Full tuition for a maths-major is NZ$5500 per year if you live at home!

[lewelma]

Unfortunately, for undergraduate, I don't think nonUSers would get any discounts, so that would be prohibitively expensive, and therefore probably not a plausbile option.

 

DS is an American citizen and a legacy to an Ivy (7 family members attended).  I checked out the price and I just about died. :svengo:  Put that in NZ dollars and I need to win the lottery!   The other problem is that it is virtually impossible to make him competitive in more than one country.  So we have to decide by December which country he will apply to.

[LMV]

Being a D1 athlete will get you accepted almost anywhere. However, I hardly think the Ivy League would be for such a person if being a professional athlete was their goal. If her sport was swimming maybe. Trust me if you are a legacy and you have given to your alma mater, it does make a difference. And IMO it should. Legacy families love and support their schools. Why shouldn't they be treated more favorably?

 

Ivy league schools calculate academic indexes for their recruited students based on gpa, SAT I and SAT II scores. [For a point of reference average AIs of accepted athletes are usually still made up of composites based on top 10% ranking, 4.0 gpa, SAT I &II all 700 or higher.] Our daughter came very close to maxing out the academic index because she had a high gpa, and did very well on her SAT I and SAT II tests.  In contrast, being a professional athlete in the sport she is currently participating in in college is quite far off our daughter's radar.  She will likely end up in either a MD or MD/PhD program in another three years. She selected her undergraduate university because she felt it was the best fit for her based on the academic and athletic opportunities.  It didn't end up being an Ivy [although many would consider it a better school than the the Ivy she was most interested in] but it was the place she felt was the best fit for her.  She had a great first year, made dean's list, got valuable varsity experience in her sport including NCAA tournament play, and already has gotten involved in research on campus. So far her sophomore year is going well both academically and athletically and she continues to believe she is where she belongs.  Because we are not paying for her undergraduate degree she will be able to use that money for medical school if she opts not to go the MD/PhD route so I hope that takes some of the financial pressure off her.

 

As far as the legacy issue, I think we will just have to agree to disagree.  

[Muttichen]

DS is an American citizen and a legacy to an Ivy (7 family members attended).  I checked out the price and I just about died. :svengo:  Put that in NZ dollars and I need to win the lottery!   The other problem is that it is virtually impossible to make him competitive in more than one country.  So we have to decide by December which country he will apply to.

 

The Ivies give need-based aid to people outside the US, at least Harvard does.  My dd's bf came as an international student and got very generous need-based aid.  And in his country, his family is not at all poor.

[LMV]

I agree that if you are  going for an academic position, there are only a handful of institutions that can advance that agenda significantly - the Ivies, Stanford, Cal Tech, MIT etc. If you are going for a professional position, and if getting a job is not an issue, then it makes little difference where you get your ticket punched.  My philosophy is to get through the process as soon as possible. My kids agree.  Early college is not for everyone, but consider that, if Stanford is your goal, and if you homeschool, how do you get there without early college? Serious question. Will your daughter get all 800s on her SATs? Even that isn't enough. For many years I was in the Penn Alumni network and I was part of the interviewing process. I saw plenty of 800 candidates get rejected. The ones who got accepted had something very special, even unique. If you are looking to get into a top school, you need to show something that few others have. I would say you need to have a plan starting very soon. 

 

I'm confused as to why getting a job would not be an issue. Even if the child comes from a very wealthy family, in my experience, most of those family patriarchs and matriarchs have enough of a work ethic that they feel subsidizing their unemployed grandchildren through their twenties and thirties would be doing them a large disservice.

 

I actually don't see how early college will pave the way into top US schools because usually these schools do not have transfer agreements and the community college often is not viewed as favorable.

 

To answer your question, our daughter did get 800 on the mathematics section of the SAT I and came close on the critical reading and writing portions.  She also achieved 800 scores on several of her SAT II subject tests.  

[LMV]

Vegesauras, welcome to the board. 

 

I've got a couple of questions.  First, I'm not clear on how doing fewer classes will help my son.  Looks like when he enters full time, one year early, he will slot into 300 level mathematics courses.  This means that his undergraduate will consist of 300 level and graduate level courses, rather than 100, 200, and 300. So he will have exposure to more types of mathematics from which to choose from for his grad work.  If he did early-entrance, he would have a much less developed understanding of field of mathematics and what part he was interested in.  Do you see this as only a mathematics issue? Perhaps mathematics is more differentiated than other subjects?  Perhaps it takes longer to gain skill? 

 

Also, for him the moment he enters full time, he cannot compete in the IMO (international math olympiad).  From what I can tell, attending the IMO is worth delaying full-time university entrance from the point of view of a resume.  So I guess I would like to know how you would weigh these types of options.

 

Finally, the moment my ds enters full time, he will focus in math and math only.  No more violin or mandarin, both of which are passions of his but both of which always fall to the bottom of his priorities when there is math to do.  For him, delaying full time entrance allows him to be a fuller person.  Interested to hear your comments on this.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Our daughter took mostly sophomore and a few typically junior level courses in math and science her first year of university because she was able to get credit for her AP coursework and some of her DE courses.  She was well prepared to start at the level and she did well with her courses.  She will now be in a position to take more advanced and graduate courses in molecular biology and biochemistry as an undergraduate and I think this will benefit her.  She is currently not sure if she wishes to pursue MD or MD/PhD so I think having more opportunity to really get into the field as an undergraduate will help her make a much more educated decision.  I would imagine that this would have a similar advantage for your son.

[Muttichen]

 Early college is not for everyone, but consider that, if Stanford is your goal, and if you homeschool, how do you get there without early college? Serious question. Will your daughter get all 800s on her SATs? Even that isn't enough. For many years I was in the Penn Alumni network and I was part of the interviewing process. I saw plenty of 800 candidates get rejected. The ones who got accepted had something very special, even unique. If you are looking to get into a top school, you need to show something that few others have. I would say you need to have a plan starting very soon. 

 

I can answer this.  So far I've had four homeschool graduates.  Two went to Harvard and two are currently at Princeton.

We did do DE starting in 9th grade, but I wouldn't call it "Early College."  We never intended for our children to finish their BAs until the normal age.  Although our kids were very advanced (some did AP Calc BC in 9th grade, for example), we used the whole four years of high school to let them grow up before heading off to college.  They were  able to complete an in-depth research project that they could enter in national competitions, they've had journal publications, they've interned in labs at NIH, they've done numerous AP tests, they've developed relationships with researchers who could write them great recommendations, and yes, they've gotten close to perfect scores on all their standardized tests.  Staying in high school those four years is what has given our kids that "something special" they need to get into top schools where they've had amazing experiences and have been able to interact with the best and brightest students from all over the world.  

 

Yeah, we could have rushed them through and transferred their credits to a mediocre state school and saved some money, but would that have been better for our kids?

[LMV]

I can answer this.  So far I've had four homeschool graduates.  Two went to Harvard and two are currently at Princeton.

We did do DE starting in 9th grade, but I wouldn't call it "Early College."  We never intended for our children to finish their BAs until the normal age.  Although our kids were very advanced (some did AP Calc BC in 9th grade, for example), we used the whole four years of high school to let them grow up before heading off to college.  They were  able to complete an in-depth research project that they could enter in national competitions, they've had journal publications, they've interned in labs at NIH, they've done numerous AP tests, they've developed relationships with researchers who could write them great recommendations, and yes, they've gotten close to perfect scores on all their standardized tests.  Staying in high school those four years is what has given our kids that "something special" they need to get into top schools where they've had amazing experiences and have been able to interact with the best and brightest students from all over the world.  

 

Yeah, we could have rushed them through and transferred their credits to a mediocre state school and saved some money, but would that have been better for our kids?

 

I like this! It sounds very similar to what we helped facilitate for our oldest daughter.  We're trying to provide similar [yet very different because she is a different child] opportunities for our fourteen year old now.  She is taking some courses at a local four year school and I suspect that she could handle enrolling for a full load but I don't think she would get as much out of that now as she will in another three years.  

[Butler]

Ok, one more from me. Can I just say that I am so pleased that NZ universities are CHEAP. Full tuition for a maths-major is NZ$5500 per year if you live at home!

Many states in the US have relatively cheap university tuition per year (Alaska $5900, Florida $6300, Wyoming $4400, North Carolina $6500, for a few examples). It's the privates that cost an arm and a leg.

 

Maybe your son can benefit from being a big fish in a small pond in New Zealand? There are some benefits to that.

[Dmmetler]

I can answer this.  So far I've had four homeschool graduates.  Two went to Harvard and two are currently at Princeton.

We did do DE starting in 9th grade, but I wouldn't call it "Early College."  We never intended for our children to finish their BAs until the normal age.  Although our kids were very advanced (some did AP Calc BC in 9th grade, for example), we used the whole four years of high school to let them grow up before heading off to college.  They were  able to complete an in-depth research project that they could enter in national competitions, they've had journal publications, they've interned in labs at NIH, they've done numerous AP tests, they've developed relationships with researchers who could write them great recommendations, and yes, they've gotten close to perfect scores on all their standardized tests.  Staying in high school those four years is what has given our kids that "something special" they need to get into top schools where they've had amazing experiences and have been able to interact with the best and brightest students from all over the world.  

 

Yeah, we could have rushed them through and transferred their credits to a mediocre state school and saved some money, but would that have been better for our kids?

 

This is very reassuring to me. This is the kind of plan that DD's mentor encourages for her-especially focused on research leading to publication and presentation before graduating high school, with the goal of being able to do research as an undergraduate. My biggest concern is meeting her academic needs otherwise while doing so.

 

 

DD is developing a long list of schools. Right now, I think it's about a dozen or so, ranging from Ivy and very prestigious private schools, to state flagships, to LACs, to mediocre in-state schools, to a couple outside the USA. The only thing they have in common is active research in herpetology focused on conservation and friendly people who are willing to talk to a 9 yr old about the work they're doing. I figure she has time to narrow down a bit.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

This is very reassuring to me. This is the kind of plan that DD's mentor encourages for her-especially focused on research leading to publication and presentation before graduating high school, with the goal of being able to do research as an undergraduate. My biggest concern is meeting her academic needs otherwise while doing so.

 

 

DD is developing a long list of schools. Right now, I think it's about a dozen or so, ranging from Ivy and very prestigious private schools, to state flagships, to LACs, to mediocre in-state schools, to a couple outside the USA. The only thing they have in common is active research in herpetology focused on conservation and friendly people who are willing to talk to a 9 yr old about the work they're doing. I figure she has time to narrow down a bit.

 

This sounds similar to what we're doing. We're making a list of fantastic options in all the tiers with various time tables. It makes the whole process seem less dire.  ;)

[lewelma]

Maybe your son can benefit from being a big fish in a small pond in New Zealand? There are some benefits to that.

 

I think you are right, Butler. Given the lack of math focus in NZ highschools, he is definitely an outlier, and my guess is that the math departments will tailor a program for him and get him research experience as soon as he is able.  I think it is a good sign that the head of school is willing to talk options with a 14 year old.  

 

Plus the big determining factor is that ds does not want to go overseas for undergrad.  I am aware, however, that he is only 14 so I don't want to completely close doors now in case he changes his mind as he gets older.  But also if he goes a year early to studies overseas, he will be underage, which I'm guessing has some implications. 

 

[Barb_]

Interesting.  I do believe my experience, while not exactly unique, is nonetheless extremely rare.

 

How many others on this board have had their kids do early college?

 

How many posters have done it for more than one kid?

 

How many posters on this board have kids who do early college then get accepted to law school?

 

Certainly, when I was homeschooling and finding my way among the various options,  I would have LOVED to have someone like myself give me advice.

 

I've had 4 attend college early.  My HS Senior is currently taking 21 credits.  My College girl is being recruited by a prestigious California school for an MD/PhD program when she graduates.  We didn't graduate them until the traditional age because all so far have attended (or will attend) University for free thanks to National Merit scholarships that they probably wouldn't have been ready to earn had we graduated them at 14, 15 or 16. Instead, they've had time to take grad courses and law courses during undergrad, or to dual major in demanding degree programs. I'm happy to answer any questions I run across that are within my area of experience, but I would never presume to call myself an expert.  I only know my kids and my area. As a family we've moved around enough to know that we are so fortunate to have full access to our high quality Community College. 

 

There are many posters on here who have early college students.  Stick around and we'll come out of the woodwork.

[EKS]

My 18yo started dual enrollment classes at 16, which I don't consider "early college."  However, my 12yo is a different ball of wax.  We are considering several options for him, including the Early Entrance Program at the University of Washington as well as dual enrollment at the local CC at 14yo.

 

What really bugs me about this whole thing is that there doesn't seem to be any room for a student to attempt to challenge himself (through college coursework) and fail (or get a C).  It's like that is a career ending move.  Really?  College/grad school admissions folks can't see that a single C on a dual enrolled (or early entrance or even regular entrance) kid's transcript isn't the end of the world?  That it might, in fact, have been a learning experience?

 

My 18yo has a C in calculus on his CC transcript.  He screwed up and didn't study enough.  He is applying to small- to medium sized selective engineering schools that he'd be perfect for.  He has mostly As and a smattering of Bs otherwise, and his ACT score was a 32.  He's a good student who made a mistake.  

 

I also have a hard time believing that only people who go to the top ten (or whatever) colleges are going to get jobs in their field.  Really?

 

 

[SeaConquest]

Re transcripts following you around forever... I have a friend who has been a legal recruiter for the tippy top law firms for a couple of decades (he's a former Biglaw partner that opened up his own shop). He once told me the story of a former *U.S. Senator* who he placed with a prestigious D.C. firm. The law firm asked the Senator for his law school and undergraduate transcripts. For realz.

[Crimson Wife]

Yeah, we could have rushed them through and transferred their credits to a mediocre state school and saved some money, but would that have been better for our kids?

 

Some of us are in a financial position where we have to settle for the least worst option. What may be optimal for the child in an ideal world may be out of reach financially. Thank your good fortune that you were not in that position and stop judging those of us who find ourselves there.

[1053]

The Ivies give need-based aid to people outside the US, at least Harvard does.  My dd's bf came as an international student and got very generous need-based aid.  And in his country, his family is not at all poor.

 

If this is the case, then I stand corrected. Was this undergrad?

 

In any case, it is even more difficult for overseas students to get accepted at these elite unis, than it is for US-based students. I read about a South Korean IMO gold medallist who was rejected from MIT or Harvard (can't recall which it was).

[lewelma]

If this is the case, then I stand corrected. Was this undergrad?

 

In any case, it is even more difficult for overseas students to get accepted at these elite unis, than it is for US-based students. I read about a South Korean IMO gold medallist who was rejected from MIT or Harvard (can't recall which it was).

 

When you say overseas, are you talking non-US citizens living overseas or ALL kids living overseas?  I assumed that given my ds is an American citizen but living overseas, that he would be treated as an out-of-state applicant.  Am I mistaken? 

[Barbara H]

It is really only a tiny handful of US colleges that are "need blind" and "fully meet financial need" of international students. Last time I checked that list was: Amherst, Dartmouth, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Yale... and of course very low acceptance rates at all of those schools. Many of the most selective schools that do a great job meeting financial need for US students are "need aware" for international students. In other words, they consider whether or not the international student can pay when they make admissions decisions and they don't promise to meet the student's financial need.

[maize]

When you say overseas, are you talking non-US citizens living overseas or ALL kids living overseas? I assumed that given my ds is an American citizen but living overseas, that he would be treated as an out-of-state applicant. Am I mistaken?

You are correct. American citizens living overseas are not considered international students.

[lewelma]

Got it. That makes sense to me.

 

[Muttichen]

Some of us are in a financial position where we have to settle for the least worst option. What may be optimal for the child in an ideal world may be out of reach financially. Thank your good fortune that you were not in that position and stop judging those of us who find ourselves there.

I'm not judging you and I'm sorry it came across that way.  I was responding to a poster who pretty arrogantly stated that early college was the best way. 

[lewelma]

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