College Exam Grades

[Bootsie]

What do you think is a reasonable average grade for an exam in a college class?  I know that it is all relative and depends on whether there is a curve or not.  But, I am curious about what people's expectations are.  

 

After the recent discussion of student evaluations, I went back and looked at mine from last semester again.  I am noticing that over the past few years my expectations versus my students' expectations have begun to diverge more and more.  

 

Here is an example of a comment:

 

"She doesn't know how to teach.  Most people in the class failed the first exam.  The second exam was even worse--the average was only 73.  She didn't care; she said that we needed to work harder."

 

This was in an introductory finance course (and many students have difficulty with the basic math in the class).  I went back and the mean on the first exam was a 78; the median was an 81.  So, no, most of the people in the class did not fail the first exam.  The material on the second exam is the hardest material of the semester.  I warn them about this beforehand. I pointed out after the exam that 75% of the class had not completed the homework over the material the exam covered; and that it is important to DO finance to learn finance.  I showed them the correlation between those who had done their homework and their grades, so they could see that on average students who did their homework made A's and B's and those who did not made D's and F's.  

[EKS]

Well, I had some exams in college where the average was in the 20s, so anything in the 70s sounds pretty good to me. As for the person's comment about most people failing, my son would come home telling me similar things and when questioned further, I would find out that what he really meant was that he had seen his friend's exam and had no further information.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I don't really know what people expect.  On one hand, there seems to be an idea in some students' heads that they should get As or Bs just for showing up.  On the other hand, I was looking at a college math sequence and saw that the pre-requisite for taking 2nd semester calculus was a D- or better in calc 1.  Now I happen to have struggled in Calc 1 in college.  I was dropped down a level of difficulty (Math 112 instead of Math 122), but would have been much better served in the long run to have retaken Calc 1 so that I actually understood what I was doing.

 

I like your demonstration of the link between homework and exam scores.  I would have been more troubled if students who had good scores on the homework then couldn't do the material on the quizzes and tests.

[kiana]

"most people failed" = my friend and I who pretended to study together both failed and I didn't look at anyone else's. 

 

I don't usually tell them that most of the class didn't do the hw even if it's true. Rather, I say something like "I was very pleased with how well those of you who did the homework are doing on the test! Unfortunately, a few didn't do that ... blah blah blah" -- in other words, make them feel like they're in the minority. 

[Teachin'Mine]

Those are generous average scores.  The problem is not the college course averages, it's what the students experienced in high school with grade inflation which is at fault.   A grade of C is average.  Students who don't do the work and don't understand the material should expect nothing more than a less than average or failing grade.

[regentrude]

In our department and intro level courses, over the past decade typical test average are in the low 70s.

Below 65% is considered too low, above 80% too high.

 

I hear you on the correlation between homework completion and test scores.

[bugs]

I do not teach college, but I feel for y'all who teach and have high (probably reasonable) standards; too many students want it easy.

[Gwen in VA]

My kids get a HUGE kick out of the fact that way back when the valedictorian of my high school class had a GPA of something around 3.4. Yup. A 3.4. And he was (obviously) the top student in the class. The GPA's went down from there.

 

The amazing thing is that this was a very strong high school in MA, one where one year three out of ~140 students were accepted to Harvard. Another year three out of ~130 headed off to MIT while others in the same class (out of ~130!) headed off to Dartmouth, Brown, Smith, and the Naval Academy.

 

The students in my high school were not poor students, as evidenced by the amazing acceptances. The grades truly were centered around a C+. My kids still have problems believing that way back in the day you could get accepted to tippy-top schools with a GPA in the low 3's!

 

Times have changed, and now everyone expects an A! Period! :confused1:

[Kathy in Richmond]

My kids get a HUGE kick out of the fact that way back when the valedictorian of my high school class had a GPA of something around 3.4. Yup. A 3.4. And he was (obviously) the top student in the class. The GPA's went down from there.

 

The amazing thing is that this was a very strong high school in MA, one where one year three out of ~140 students were accepted to Harvard. Another year three out of ~130 headed off to MIT while others in the same class (out of ~130!) headed off to Dartmouth, Brown, Smith, and the Naval Academy.

 

The students in my high school were not poor students, as evidenced by the amazing acceptances. The grades truly were centered around a C+. My kids still have problems believing that way back in the day you could get accepted to tippy-top schools with a GPA in the low 3's!

 

Times have changed, and now everyone expects an A! Period! :confused1:

 

Love this!

 

I was the unofficial valedictorian of my high school class of 500 (in the early 70's it wasn't cool to announce ranks, but my guidance counselor told me privately). I can't remember my exact GPA, but it surely wasn't a 4.0. Back then, A's were definitely hard to come by!

 

Recently I attended the graduation ceremony of the local high school where I now live, which contains my county's math-sci magnet school. The announcer at the ceremony asked all students with a "4.0 or better" to stand up. Over half of the graduating class rose! What does a 4.0 mean any more if so many get one?

 

When I was a new assistant prof on the math faculty at GA Tech in the 1980s, my department chair checked over my grade rosters before they were released. It was expected that I would give an average grade of C+ or so in the introductory freshman and sophomore math classes. A's were special & shouldn't appear with large frequency. There were lots of B's and C's and a good number of D's. About the same # of F's as A's.

 

Times certainly have changed!

[Bootsie]

Love this!

 

I was the unofficial valedictorian of my high school class of 500 (in the early 70's it wasn't cool to announce ranks, but my guidance counselor told me privately). I can't remember my exact GPA, but it surely wasn't a 4.0. Back then, A's were definitely hard to come by!

 

Recently I attended the graduation ceremony of the local high school where I now live, which contains my county's math-sci magnet school. The announcer at the ceremony asked all students with a "4.0 or better" to stand up. Over half of the graduating class rose! What does a 4.0 mean any more if so many get one?

 

When I was a new assistant prof on the math faculty at GA Tech in the 1980s, my department chair checked over my grade rosters before they were released. It was expected that I would give an average grade of C+ or so in the introductory freshman and sophomore math classes. A's were special & shouldn't appear with large frequency. There were lots of B's and C's and a good number of D's. About the same # of F's as A's.

 

Times certainly have changed!

 

4.0 or better! The president at DD's university said at parent orientation--"We don't want students who are perfect, we want students who are courageous"  It is surprising how many high schools now have so many students who are "better than perfect."

[DonHomeschool]

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[G5052]

I actually don't usually announce the class average on exams because of this type of thing.  Of course I look at it for myself and also at the distribution.  I particularly look at the scores of the students who did the homework, and I've sometimes calculated the average based on those and thrown out the scores of those who didn't.  And yes, I've shown them how those who do the homework did well.  But I haven't announced the class average in a long time.

 

I work at a community college, teaching a class that everyone takes in the first semester or so.  It isn't uncommon for 1/3 of the class to fail the first exam in the fall.  It's a hands-on exam, and I give them a list of skills that they must demonstrate that is posted on the course management system.  And they still fail.  Thankfully that's kind of the norm at this school, so I'm not pushed to do anything different.  And some semesters I only have 1-2 A's out of 15 or so students who are still with me by the end of the semester.  Typical of state community colleges with pretty much open admission, only 25% graduate within 5 years.

[maize]

How is an average grade in the C range failing?

 

These kids have become so accustomed to grade inflation in high school that they have no concept of C as an average grade and A standing for true excellence.

[Bootsie]

Besides the grade inflation, the professors prior to the turn of the century actually taught.  Now, professors “guide†their students.  I know it is not a fact and a matter of opinion, but in general, I think technology have made professors and students lazy.  Obviously, there are exceptions.

This is an interesting observation.  I have been teaching at the college level for over 25 years.  When I started I had some students who did not read the book but they came to class and a few who did not come to class but read the book.  Now, I have many students who do not read the book, do not come to class, do not do the homework, but expect a one hour review before the exam in which I "prepare" them for the exam.  I would really like a semester in which I could throw out the use of technology and return to teaching like I did two decades ago.  I know I am working much harder than I did in the past (and many of my colleagues feel the same way), but the time is spent on dealing with technology or other administrative issues rather than teaching.   I have had one student contact me this semester about the course material--but I am spending an incredible amount of time with students over technology issues.

[G5052]

Now, I have many students who do not read the book, do not come to class, do not do the homework, but expect a one hour review before the exam in which I "prepare" them for the exam.  

 

I know I am working much harder than I did in the past (and many of my colleagues feel the same way), but the time is spent on dealing with technology or other administrative issues rather than teaching.  

 

This is my world.  

 

When they ask for help, and I ask them if they've looked in the book.  They just want help.  Some get irritated with me for telling them to look in the book and then ask for help, but I'm not spoon-feeding.  They need to learn to do some of their own troubleshooting, especially because I teach IT/CSC.  I tell them that what I teach is going to go away in 3-5 years, and they need to learn where to find help. The work I assign isn't that hard either.  You do have to put in some effort though.

 

The tech issues with teaching IT are maddening.  Every fall the online portion of the course that the textbook publisher provides is late and is full of bugs.  So every September I'm going crazy trying to get things set up and the kinks worked out.  This September was horrible because they did away with the professor help line and live chat, so I had to submit problem reports and wait.  And wait.

 

And the databases I have to update and reports I have to file are maddening.  There's an electronic form for missing three classes in a row.  A form for falling behind with homework.  And on and on.  Sometimes I don't do them all to the level they want.  I figure that the students should be together enough to know these things, so why do I have to report it so that the school can message and email them with information they already should know?

 

Not much time for improving my teaching. 

[Only me]

A problem is that even though a C grade is considered average a much higher grade is expected for classes within the major. My oldest "struggled" a bit her first year and got a few c's. Since then she has mostly received A's and B's but is still playing catchup on her GPA as well as class standing for her major. Part of her problem too is that she went to cc the first year and got straight A's but those classes don't figure into her GPA. A lot of them were easier freshman classes (freshman English etc). If she had taken those at the 4 year school instead and received an A her GPA would be much higher.

 

I'm also not sure I understand why it would be ok for so many of rhe students to receive D's or fail on a test. Of course I'm sure a lot has to do with lack of studying, reading text etc but both of my daughters are good students and have had a test where only a few people in the whole class got a good grade and most got Ds or lower. I would think that it would be expected for students to get more than 60 or 70% right on the test to show mastery of material. They have taken tests where the teacher told them ahead of time most would fail. Doesn't that show at least some of the burden on the teacher to do a better job teaching. This was a test where dd and her friends even utilized study groups etc.

[DonHomeschool]

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[kiana]

I'm also not sure I understand why it would be ok for so many of rhe students to receive D's or fail on a test. Of course I'm sure a lot has to do with lack of studying, reading text etc but both of my daughters are good students and have had a test where only a few people in the whole class got a good grade and most got Ds or lower. I would think that it would be expected for students to get more than 60 or 70% right on the test to show mastery of material. They have taken tests where the teacher told them ahead of time most would fail. Doesn't that show at least some of the burden on the teacher to do a better job teaching. This was a test where dd and her friends even utilized study groups etc.

 

Sometimes even good students get less than optimal grades on a test simply because the material was harder than they thought it was, or they studied hard but they didn't study hard enough, or they studied in the wrong way (i.e. drilling each other with flash cards when the test emphasized application of basic principles).

 

This shows up especially in math classes, where many students study by reading the book and re-reading old homework problems rather than working problems with the book closed and then checking their work in the book. This results in students for whom the math problems look hauntingly familiar, but who cannot even attempt them because they can't remember where to start. We frequently have high failure rates in the early examinations simply because the students are working hard, but not in the right way.

[regentrude]

Sometimes even good students get less than optimal grades on a test simply because the material was harder than they thought it was, or they studied hard but they didn't study hard enough, or they studied in the wrong way (i.e. drilling each other with flash cards when the test emphasized application of basic principles).

 

This shows up especially in math classes, where many students study by reading the book and re-reading old homework problems rather than working problems with the book closed and then checking their work in the book. This results in students for whom the math problems look hauntingly familiar, but who cannot even attempt them because they can't remember where to start. We frequently have high failure rates in the early examinations simply because the students are working hard, but not in the right way.

 

I had this experience as well.

The majority of the students who fail a test in my course simply underestimate the time they need to spend on the class and do not put in a minimum of 8 hours outside of class every week (not just during the week preceding the exam) for this 4 hour course. Many students have unrealistic expectations about the time they need to put into a college course (and this is what I hear from colleagues across the disciplines).

A small fraction of students fails despite putting in enough time on task, and these usually study the wrong way. As kiana mentioned, they may try to study by pattern matching. I just had a conversation with a student yesterday who explained that she always needed a long time and many repetitions to memorize her spelling words and that she would want to start working on "studying" problems now for the next exam. I had to explain to her that memorizing as many physics problems as possible is not what she should be doing - instead, she should try to thoroughly understand the reason behind each.and.every. step in a few problems.

 

I tell all students that, if they are unhappy with their exam grades, they should first critically examine whether they spend enough time on task. That should include assigned reading before attending class, going over lecture notes and reading after class, doing homework. In addition, they should utilize the opportunities for learning assistance we offer in the form of learning centers and tutoring. Any student who thinks she is already doing all those things and is still not successful is encouraged to come to see me, because, in that case, it is not a question of spending more time, but of doing things differently, and we need to figure this out together.

The first thing I recommend to such students when they come to see me is to work regularly with a group (we facilitate working in peer groups in our learning centers) and to use the group work most efficiently by not being tempted to follow the smartest student in the group, but by picking up the chalk and struggling through the problem on the board with the help of the other group members.

 

I can very much relate to those students, because I myself failed my first physics test as an undergraduate - despite putting in insane amounts of time. It was only after I had figured out how to study and how to use a study group that it was as if a switch had been flipped, and I made straight As from that point on. It took me an entire semester to get to this point.

[EKS]

How is an average grade in the C range failing?

 

At my son's CC, you have to receive a 2.0 or higher to fulfill prerequisite requirements.  And a C, according to them, is 1.9-2.1.  A C- is 1.5-1.8. All the instructors he had did not grade on a curve, and 2.0 corresponded to exactly 75%.     

[kiana]

I can very much relate to those students, because I myself failed my first physics test as an undergraduate - despite putting in insane amounts of time. It was only after I had figured out how to study and how to use a study group that it was as if a switch had been flipped, and I made straight As from that point on. It took me an entire semester to get to this point.

 

Yes. I nearly failed my first graduate class in group theory, despite putting in nearly 30 hours a week studying for a 3-credit class. I did not know *how* to study something that was difficult for me! Mathematics had always made such intuitive sense that when I reached a topic that did *not* make intuitive sense, I was completely at sea.

 

After that semester, I did well ... but it took me most of the semester to figure out how to study. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I deal with this issue every semester.  I teach Dual Credit classes at two area high schools. The problems typically arise after the first exam, when half the class receives Bs, Cs or Ds.  I have had students complain to their high school counselors and parents call and complain to my dean.  I have been followed in Walmart by an irate parent who chose that moment to give me a piece of her mind about how inept I am as an instructor.  Luckily, FERPA regulations tied my tongue and I simply left my cart and walked away.

 

My classroom problems arise due to the way the high schools select the students for DC enrollment.  The students are usually the top 10-15% of the senior class and all have 4.0s. Not all of them, however, are performing at the collegiate level; some have never taken advanced or honors courses. These high achievers tend to panic when they receive the 'first' low grade.  It's a wake up call for those individuals who have never had to read a textbook, study outside of class or take responsibility for their work.  I spend each semester guiding them through the how's, why's and tears usually reserved for freshman year.  The majority are taking 5-6 high school courses along with 1 or 2 DC classes.  Many are also in extracurriculars and have jobs.   They don't have the skills for time management or prioritizing activities. I have been asked to refrain from scheduling quizzes, tests or 'serious' homework assignments during homecoming week or right before prom because the students are distracted and are focused more on school spirit than work. 

 

My biggest surprise came when I was asked to lower my standards so that more of my class would earn A's. I refuse to compromise my integrity so that Mary Sue can maintain her 4.0.  If Mary Sue earns her A, great.  I am not giving it to her by making my class easier.

 

I have been teaching for five years and my grades tend to follow the normal distribution, few A's, few F's and a bunch in between.  I make no excuses and I keep doing what I do.  I pass my annual review and the college has never asked me to alter my grading system or homework load.

 

I realized I was doing all right when a friend who teaches for the local LAC, and who has had many of my students in her upper level courses, told me that my students come to her prepared.  She knows that when their transcript shows my name alongside that A the student will know the material.  That is perhaps the best compliment I have ever received.

[hornblower]

At my son's CC, you have to receive a 2.0 or higher to fulfill prerequisite requirements.  And a C, according to them, is 1.9-2.1.  A C- is 1.5-1.8. All the instructors he had did not grade on a curve, and 2.0 corresponded to exactly 75%.     

 

wow, that's a high % for a C

 

At UBC a C is 60-63%; 72-75 is a B.

 

 

[kiana]

In further response to the OP:

 

A reasonable average distribution of grades (which is NOT necessarily the same as a reasonable exam average) is going to vary depending on the level of class and the population enrolled. For example, it would be entirely reasonable for a upper-division course taken mostly by graduate-school-bound majors to have a grade average of 3.5 or even higher. This is because most of the people who are average or lower in that subject will have moved to another major where they have a higher ability by then.

 

Even at the freshman level, electives still tend to have a much higher grade distribution than required courses. Many students in required courses do not understand why they are required and do not take them seriously. If it is an elective, they usually have at least a vague interest in the subject, even if it is "well I had to take psychology, history, or economics, and I thought psychology was the least boring".

 

The absolute lowest grades tend to be in developmental courses and in courses which are prerequisites for a specific major that pays well. For example, Anatomy and Physiology has astronomical failure rates at many universities, simply because many students sign up for it planning on going to nursing school, but are not sufficiently serious about it. Similarly, principles of accounting I has a terribly high failure rate because many students sign up for it knowing nothing more than that accounting pays well. Developmental courses are similar, because there are years of educational neglect which the university is attempting to remediate in just a couple of semesters.

 

Exam grade averages tend to be higher at more selective schools as well.

 

tl;dr it varies too much to say. But I would sure love to have your exam averages in my lower-division courses.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

wow, that's a high % for a C

 

At UBC a C is 60-63%; 72-75 is a B.

 

 

 

What is an A then?  Or am I misunderstanding the percentages?

[regentrude]

wow, that's a high % for a C

 

At UBC a C is 60-63%; 72-75 is a B.

 

 

So they get an A for 76%????

 

In our department (and most other departments at our institution), grades follow the 90-80-70-60 scheme. Actually, in the large intro courses, we give them an extra 0.5%, so the grade cut for an A is 89.5%.

 

The courses are designed so that getting 90% of the points reflects the degree of mastery that we consider necessary to deserve a grade of A. A student who earns 75% of the possible points has shown a degree of mastery that deserves a solid C.

 

As with any grading scale, I can easily construct assignments where a student who achieves a 50% demonstrates the degree of mastery that is deserving of an A+. So, without knowing the assignments and corresponding expectations, comparing grading scales is not meaningful.

 

 

 

 

[hornblower]

90–100 A+ 85–89 A 80–84 A- 76–79 B+ 72–75 B 68–71 B- 64–67 C+ 60–63 C 55–59 C- 50–54 D 0–49 F (fail)¹¹ The School of Nursing defines Fail (F) as below 60%.

 

sorry, lost table layout but you get the idea ....