Ginevra Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I debated on whether this goes in Chat or College here, but I chose College because it seems more likely that posters here know about this case. I just finished reading the book Conning Harvard. It is the true story of how Adan Wheeler plagiarized and faked his way through admission to Bowdoin, classes at Bowdoin, then transfer admission to Harvard, winning prestigious prizes until his senior year. He was found out when he was trying to obtain Fulbright and Rhodes. What strikes me about his story is the question of his parents' role/awareness as to what Adam was doing. His father was also a high school teacher - shouldn't he have been a bit surprised that his son, who was a "good, but unremarkable" student, gained acceptance at Harvard? Also, by the time he was at Harvard, his web of lies was so significant and thorough, it seems to me that he would not want his parents to EVER be around. He could have been discovered so easily if his parents had remarked about his high school, his past grades, even his age! also, he was suspended from Bowdoin for plagiarism before he gained his Harvard transfer. Did he lie to his folks about why he was leaving Bowdoin? If they knew about his suspension, why didn't they get curious about anything else? If any of my kids go to Harvard, I promise you, I'll be on campus at least once in a while! He won prestigious prizes - weren't they curious about this? Their role seems so fishy to me. The book said almost nothing about his parents except at the very end, when he had been caught. Does anyone know more about this, or have any thoughts in general about a young adult's behavior in college and the parental role? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 My parents were pretty hands off with my college applications and certainly my life as a young adult, I called home about once a month but rarely discussed specifics. There's no reason they would have known if I was faking things. They certainly didn't hang out on my college campus or talk to my friends or teachers. They wouldn't have known anything about my life except what I told them. I don't think parents are or should be accountable for the actions of their adult kids, especially once those kids no longer live under their roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in NY Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Do I have thoughts about a young adult's behavior in college and the parental role? Yes, many. Before my daughter left for school, we really, really thought things would be a certain way. We had talked to her and all of our kids a million times about family... how we are all going to work as a team to get everyone through school... about how (financially and otherwise) it was really important to keep the lines of communication open... how much we loved them and want to support them emotionally if they need it... etc, etc. My heart has been broken in a number of ways, lately,.. but the biggest is just how dd went off to college and didn't want to rely on us or discuss almost anything at all with us. She gets almost all advice from her friends (that we don't know at all.... but I assume that they are about her age.... ). She gives us very little information and gets annoyed when we ask. Believe me when I tell you that we are not overbearing people. We are not angry parents. We are very low key, compared to so many other families we know and our FOO. So.... suffice it to say I am very surprised at this point in my mothering to know that I know nothing about what my daughter is doing... the company she keeps... the way she spends her money... or her plans for the future. Wow. Writing it out like that sounds and feels very stark, but this is the reality I have to accept at this point. We went from being a very happy, close knit family to virtually no meaningful contact. I try to be light and airy and keep in touch but it goes ignored most of the time. This of course might all backfire on her if we can't end up working together to figure out how things will get paid for etc. I am getting ready to launch dd#2 and we will have the same discussions ... hopefully with a better result. Some kids just want to cut ties and believe me, there's not a lot that can be done in some circumstances. There's no getting info out of someone that doesn't want to share it. So would it surprise me to know that the parent's didn't know? Not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellifera33 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I went to college far from home. My mom came out once during my sophomore year when I was very ill and hospitalized for a few days, and then for my graduation. Graduation was the only time my Dad stepped foot on campus. They only knew what I told them. My brother went to school more locally, and my parents watched his sports events, but in general, he shared even less information with them than I did. I can see parents really not knowing much about what is going on, or just feeling elated that their student has finally blossomed in college, and wanting to avoid bothering them so they can study and continue to win awards and accolades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Do I have thoughts about a young adult's behavior in college and the parental role? Yes, many. Before my daughter left for school, we really, really thought things would be a certain way. We had talked to her and all of our kids a million times about family... how we are all going to work as a team to get everyone through school... about how (financially and otherwise) it was really important to keep the lines of communication open... how much we loved them and want to support them emotionally if they need it... etc, etc. My heart has been broken in a number of ways, lately,.. but the biggest is just how dd went off to college and didn't want to rely on us or discuss almost anything at all with us. She gets almost all advice from her friends (that we don't know at all.... but I assume that they are about her age.... ). She gives us very little information and gets annoyed when we ask. Believe me when I tell you that we are not overbearing people. We are not angry parents. We are very low key, compared to so many other families we know and our FOO. So.... suffice it to say I am very surprised at this point in my mothering to know that I know nothing about what my daughter is doing... the company she keeps... the way she spends her money... or her plans for the future. Wow. Writing it out like that sounds and feels very stark, but this is the reality I have to accept at this point. We went from being a very happy, close knit family to virtually no meaningful contact. I try to be light and airy and keep in touch but it goes ignored most of the time. This of course might all backfire on her if we can't end up working together to figure out how things will get paid for etc. I am getting ready to launch dd#2 and we will have the same discussions ... hopefully with a better result. Some kids just want to cut ties and believe me, there's not a lot that can be done in some circumstances. There's no getting info out of someone that doesn't want to share it. So would it surprise me to know that the parent's didn't know? Not really. I'm sorry, Jen. That sounds painful. I would find myself shocked if my kids moved in a direction such as you describe, but For all I know, it might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I'm not familiar with this story, but I'm not at all surprised at the idea of parents being quite separate from a college student's life. My parents each came to campus once or twice and they had no contact with any of my professors or advisers. I don't think they ever even saw my grades. That seems quite normal to me, though more involvement would be normal as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteryJen Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I lived at home during college and my parents didn't know what classes I was taking, or my plans for grad school. They only came to campus for the holiday choir concert. I really lived a very separate life and we were under the same roof. I think that it is mostly normal for young adults to pull away and try to make their way on their own. My ds1 is going about living his life, we hear from him maybe once a week, if we are lucky. I only learned the name of his roommate last week. He has been gone for a month. I don't know the names of his professor, friends or even swim coach. But, all kids are different. We were pretty sure that ds1 would be really independent. I don't know about my others, except for ds3. He is a momma's boy, and talks and confides in a way that ds1 never did. I would be surprised if he pulled away entirely, but he might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 When I went to college, my father tried to know everything and control as much as he could (yes, I have issues still today). While there's a lot my father did not know, there is no way I could have come up with and maintained such elaborate lies. On the other hand I had plenty of friends whose parents knew absolutely nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I debated on whether this goes in Chat or College here, but I chose College because it seems more likely that posters here know about this case. I just finished reading the book Conning Harvard. It is the true story of how Adan Wheeler plagiarized and faked his way through admission to Bowdoin, classes at Bowdoin, then transfer admission to Harvard, winning prestigious prizes until his senior year. He was found out when he was trying to obtain Fulbright and Rhodes. What strikes me about his story is the question of his parents' role/awareness as to what Adam was doing. His father was also a high school teacher - shouldn't he have been a bit surprised that his son, who was a "good, but unremarkable" student, gained acceptance at Harvard? Also, by the time he was at Harvard, his web of lies was so significant and thorough, it seems to me that he would not want his parents to EVER be around. He could have been discovered so easily if his parents had remarked about his high school, his past grades, even his age! also, he was suspended from Bowdoin for plagiarism before he gained his Harvard transfer. Did he lie to his folks about why he was leaving Bowdoin? If they knew about his suspension, why didn't they get curious about anything else? If any of my kids go to Harvard, I promise you, I'll be on campus at least once in a while! He won prestigious prizes - weren't they curious about this? Their role seems so fishy to me. The book said almost nothing about his parents except at the very end, when he had been caught. Does anyone know more about this, or have any thoughts in general about a young adult's behavior in college and the parental role? One thing I have learned about other parents now that I have teens is that they are SO oblivious. I thought mine were oblivious. Kids are doing unbelievable stuff and their parents are completely unaware. This isn't really new. The Columbine shooters were amassing huge quantities of weapons and bombs in their bedrooms...how could Mom or Dad not notice any of that?? The other problem is pride. ANY parent will believe that their kid is special enough to get into Harvard. However, if evidence contradicts this position, and the documentation isn't there, it is incumbent upon an aware parent to check everything out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Do I have thoughts about a young adult's behavior in college and the parental role? Yes, many. Before my daughter left for school, we really, really thought things would be a certain way. We had talked to her and all of our kids a million times about family... how we are all going to work as a team to get everyone through school... about how (financially and otherwise) it was really important to keep the lines of communication open... how much we loved them and want to support them emotionally if they need it... etc, etc. My heart has been broken in a number of ways, lately,.. but the biggest is just how dd went off to college and didn't want to rely on us or discuss almost anything at all with us. She gets almost all advice from her friends (that we don't know at all.... but I assume that they are about her age.... ). She gives us very little information and gets annoyed when we ask. Believe me when I tell you that we are not overbearing people. We are not angry parents. We are very low key, compared to so many other families we know and our FOO. So.... suffice it to say I am very surprised at this point in my mothering to know that I know nothing about what my daughter is doing... the company she keeps... the way she spends her money... or her plans for the future. Wow. Writing it out like that sounds and feels very stark, but this is the reality I have to accept at this point. We went from being a very happy, close knit family to virtually no meaningful contact. I try to be light and airy and keep in touch but it goes ignored most of the time. This of course might all backfire on her if we can't end up working together to figure out how things will get paid for etc. I am getting ready to launch dd#2 and we will have the same discussions ... hopefully with a better result. Some kids just want to cut ties and believe me, there's not a lot that can be done in some circumstances. There's no getting info out of someone that doesn't want to share it. So would it surprise me to know that the parent's didn't know? Not really. I'm sorry. There are kids who are just more secretive. I have one myself. It's hard. Hopefully, your daughter will become appreciative and more outspoken about it soon. I hear they become nice again around 30. ;) Such elaborate lies that required such elaborate documentation as in the story the OP posted would seem to be harder to hide though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 One thing I have learned about other parents now that I have teens is that they are SO oblivious. I thought mine were oblivious. Kids are doing unbelievable stuff and their parents are completely unaware. This isn't really new. The Columbine shooters were amassing huge quantities of weapons and bombs in their bedrooms...how could Mom or Dad not notice any of that?? The other problem is pride. ANY parent will believe that their kid is special enough to get into Harvard. However, if evidence contradicts this position, and the documentation isn't there, it is incumbent upon an aware parent to check everything out. I think it's one thing to expect parents to have some awareness of what is going on in the lives of their teenagers living at home, but young adults who have moved out? How and why would parents know more than the adult child chooses to share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I think it's one thing to expect parents to have some awareness of what is going on in the lives of their teenagers living at home, but young adults who have moved out? How and why would parents know more than the adult child chooses to share? You are right. I should have made that distinction clear. I'm really talking about those who have the teens in the home and still have no idea what they are doing, which seems odd to me. I'm really observant. However, you are right. Once they are out, you can't see what they are doing and they might not let you in. Someone on College Confidential says to send a text asking, "Did you get the money I sent you?" because it always brings a response. ;) I was thinking we were also including college kids and there are still definite ties there, financially, at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 It is a fascinating story. I'm thinking that a lot of people put faith in the goodness of their children and in the judgement of institutions. It simply wouldn't occur to them that Harvard would make a mistake. For parents actively involved in homeschooling it may come as a surprise, but I bet that if we could randomly place pretty average B- students into schools like Harvard or Stanford most of their parents wouldn't question it. They'd feel validation. They'd feel pride. They'd assume Harvard and Stanford knew what they were doing to recognize the promise in their children. One thing this story made me think of was the SAT cheating scandal as covered by 60 minutes a few years ago. As a parent my first thought was to wonder where the parents were... but then that was quickly followed up by the realization that in most situations the parents not only knew about it but were paying for it. It is hard to process but some people really don't care at all about ethics. They just want their kids to get ahead at any cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 … Before my daughter left for school, we really, really thought things would be a certain way... … My heart has been broken in a number of ways, lately,.. but the biggest is just how dd went off to college and didn't want to rely on us or discuss almost anything at all with us. She gets almost all advice from her friends (that we don't know at all.... but I assume that they are about her age.... ). She gives us very little information and gets annoyed when we ask…. I know nothing about what my daughter is doing... the company she keeps... the way she spends her money... or her plans for the future... … We went from being a very happy, close knit family to virtually no meaningful contact. I try to be light and airy and keep in touch but it goes ignored most of the time. :grouphug: :grouphug: Oh, Jen. :crying: :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 My parents were pretty hands off with my college applications and certainly my life as a young adult, I called home about once a month but rarely discussed specifics. There's no reason they would have known if I was faking things. They certainly didn't hang out on my college campus or talk to my friends or teachers. They wouldn't have known anything about my life except what I told them. . This was me. I had/have a great family. I'm just very introverted (with some aspie characteristics) and unless a person is standing right in front of me, it doesn't occur to me to communicate with them. It's not rejection at all. I have to work very, very hard to keep in some form of communication with people outside my immediate surroundings, and it's mentally exhausting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I'm sorry, Jen. That sounds painful. I would find myself shocked if my kids moved in a direction such as you describe, but For all I know, it might. Jen, :grouphug: . Being the parent of adult children is so much harder than I ever thought it would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in WI Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 My heart has been broken in a number of ways, lately,.. but the biggest is just how dd went off to college and didn't want to rely on us or discuss almost anything at all with us. She gets almost all advice from her friends (that we don't know at all.... but I assume that they are about her age.... ). She gives us very little information and gets annoyed when we ask. Believe me when I tell you that we are not overbearing people. We are not angry parents. We are very low key, compared to so many other families we know and our FOO. So.... suffice it to say I am very surprised at this point in my mothering to know that I know nothing about what my daughter is doing... the company she keeps... the way she spends her money... or her plans for the future. Wow. Writing it out like that sounds and feels very stark, but this is the reality I have to accept at this point. We went from being a very happy, close knit family to virtually no meaningful contact. :crying: I don't know you, but this really touched me. I'm sorry for your pain. My boys are still young, but this would break my heart, too. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in WI Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I just finished reading the book Conning Harvard. It is the true story of how Adan Wheeler plagiarized and faked his way through admission to Bowdoin, classes at Bowdoin, then transfer admission to Harvard, winning prestigious prizes until his senior year. He was found out when he was trying to obtain Fulbright and Rhodes. What strikes me about his story is the question of his parents' role/awareness as to what Adam was doing. His father was also a high school teacher - shouldn't he have been a bit surprised that his son, who was a "good, but unremarkable" student, gained acceptance at Harvard? Also, by the time he was at Harvard, his web of lies was so significant and thorough, it seems to me that he would not want his parents to EVER be around. He could have been discovered so easily if his parents had remarked about his high school, his past grades, even his age! also, he was suspended from Bowdoin for plagiarism before he gained his Harvard transfer. Did he lie to his folks about why he was leaving Bowdoin? If they knew about his suspension, why didn't they get curious about anything else? This sounds interesting. I requested it from the library. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Does financial independence accompany the social and other independence? While it would break my heart to have my dd separate from me so completely, if I were the one holding the purse strings, I would insist on periodic check ins and knowing about grades, classes, living arrangements, etc. Because, to be honest, independence that does not include the financial aspect is merely the semblance of independence, not the real thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in NY Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Yeah... to be frank, Up to this point she has (mostly) paid for her college education herself. That will probably have to change next year... (that was the plan all along...) but yeah... she worked multiple jobs for many years in high school and hard over the summers to save up. And it worked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Do I have thoughts about a young adult's behavior in college and the parental role? Yes, many. Before my daughter left for school, we really, really thought things would be a certain way. We had talked to her and all of our kids a million times about family... how we are all going to work as a team to get everyone through school... about how (financially and otherwise) it was really important to keep the lines of communication open... how much we loved them and want to support them emotionally if they need it... etc, etc. My heart has been broken in a number of ways, lately,.. but the biggest is just how dd went off to college and didn't want to rely on us or discuss almost anything at all with us. She gets almost all advice from her friends (that we don't know at all.... but I assume that they are about her age.... ). She gives us very little information and gets annoyed when we ask. Believe me when I tell you that we are not overbearing people. We are not angry parents. We are very low key, compared to so many other families we know and our FOO. So.... suffice it to say I am very surprised at this point in my mothering to know that I know nothing about what my daughter is doing... the company she keeps... the way she spends her money... or her plans for the future. Wow. Writing it out like that sounds and feels very stark, but this is the reality I have to accept at this point. We went from being a very happy, close knit family to virtually no meaningful contact. I try to be light and airy and keep in touch but it goes ignored most of the time. This of course might all backfire on her if we can't end up working together to figure out how things will get paid for etc. I am getting ready to launch dd#2 and we will have the same discussions ... hopefully with a better result. Some kids just want to cut ties and believe me, there's not a lot that can be done in some circumstances. There's no getting info out of someone that doesn't want to share it. So would it surprise me to know that the parent's didn't know? Not really. Jen, I wanted to say I'm sorry for this. But also, I wanted to say that maybe it's not as bleak as it seems... I am from a very close family. My parents meant the world to me, but when I went off to college, it didn't even occur to me to keep in touch regularly. I probably called home twice/month on the college's watts line, and that was about it. I'm sure they longed to know everything, but it didn't even occur to me to tell them, living in my lovely college bubble. I was learning about independence and being on my own and it was quite the adventure. I don't know why it didn't occur to me to share it with my parents. I was a kind, sensitive young woman for the most part! I don't ever remember discussing classes, activities, friends, boyfriends... In my mind though, my parents and I were just as close as ever! How they had the self-control to respect my new-found boundaries, I'll never know. (I'm not quite as respectful of my own children -- ha!) A couple of my kids lean that way -- more private, while others are very out there with their feelings and emotions and wanting to call and tell me everything. But, I think it's quite natural for young adults that age to appear aloof for awhile as they learn about living independently. I think it's natural --and healthy -- for them to want to figure things out on their own. It isn't necessarily a reflection of their feelings about family. I also wonder if our new technology and ability to keep in touch so easily has changed parents' expectations. Anyway, just some thoughts. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 I'm currently convinced my kids will never leave my house & will just live in my basement for.ever. but just in case, I make them watch this regularly. A mother WORRIES.http://youtu.be/N5pXggZIr6I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Without reading all of the responses, I'm agreeing and identifying 100% with what Jen has said...the difference being that my ds never had a warm and fuzzy relationship with us when he was at home. He was a quite challenging kid to raise and even given the current situation, he is closer to us emotionally than he ever was before. We keep in touch because we call him, on a schedule. I arranged this when he left for college because I knew we'd rarely hear form him otherwise...and that would just be too heartbreaking for me. He's not a bad kid, at least, given what I know I don't think he is. But yes, there is so very much I do not know. For us, the GF is a far bigger influence than friends at this point, and even though I like her, I can't say I feel like I know her very well. Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Does financial independence accompany the social and other independence? While it would break my heart to have my dd separate from me so completely, if I were the one holding the purse strings, I would insist on periodic check ins and knowing about grades, classes, living arrangements, etc. Because, to be honest, independence that does not include the financial aspect is merely the semblance of independence, not the real thing. Our attitude is different. We have saved a pot of money for the boys' university educations. We will advise them, but the choices are for them to make. I am always happy to hear and suggest, but I don't expect Calvin to talk to me about grades, classes, etc. Yes, he will be financially reliant on me, but no, I don't need to take control in proportion to the money I give him. As far as the original post: I didn't see Calvin's university application. He did show me his essay, and I made suggestions on that, but if he had lied about everything else, I would not have known. FWIW, however, UK university application is based on public exams, the results from which are passed directly to the UK UCAS common entrance system. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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