Shortage of qualified workers vs. not paying enough to attract workers

[LostSurprise]

I was reading this article about the shortage of truckers last night, and I thought it was an interesting so I asked dh this question: in a situation where there are not enough workers to fill necessary positions is it a case of 'a shortage of qualified workers' or the case that employers are not paying enough to attract workers?

 

It lead to an interesting discussion of economics. 

 

And flipping to the white collar side of the issue we talked about the proposed increase of H1B visas for high-skilled workers, especially in software/computer science. DH is in software so we've had several discussions lately about software culture, ageism, and how management influences the culture. 

 

I have other experiences that come to bear, but I'm curious how others see this issue. 

 

 

[Slartibartfast]

I do think there is an issue that truck driving is not paying well enough. It is a hard job. I know many people think they are just sitting around all day but there is a lot of isolation, they are away from their families a lot, and the hours are difficult. I think if they are not willing to pay the workers well enough then that will only attract unsavory elements to the business because normal blue collar workers won't work for nothing. People cannot raise  a family on those wages.

 

I have worked in an industry where I was around truck drivers, companies that pay well and treat employees well always have the best people. There is a reason for that.

 

I am dubious that we lack trained IT professionals.

[shawthorne44]

Not paying enough.  I remember when there was a glut of drivers.  But, the pay was better then.  

 

Same with H1B.  Supposedly the company has to try to find a U.S. employee first.  What they do (or at least what my former company did) is to find the person they wanted to hire.  Get their resume.  Then write an extremely detailed job requirements so that only one person in the world is likely to match it.  Post the job.  Throw out all applications received, and then hire the H1B person.  

 

[Plateau Mama]

.

 

I am dubious that we lack trained IT professionals.

It's not that we lack trained IT professionals. We lack trained IT professionals who are willing to work as hard as needed to earn that nice paycheck. I could tell you what some of these kids expect or do. Their sense of entitlement never ceases to amaze me.

[Slartibartfast]

It's not that we lack trained IT professionals. We lack trained IT professionals who are willing to work as hard as needed to earn that nice paycheck. I could tell you what some of these kids expect or do. Their sense of entitlement never ceases to amaze me.

 

Microsoft just laid off 18,000 people, not including contract workers. There are plenty of trained adults who could use nice paychecks, not all of them are kids.

[JumpyTheFrog]

If they want more truckers they need to either pay them more, offer better benefits, or make it possible to be home more. I bet some truckers want more control over their schedule more than they want a bigger paycheck.

 

As far as a shortage of white collar workers and engineers, I don't believe it (except maybe in very specialized industries). From what I remember of the late 90s, when I was in high school, there was a true IT shortage and salaries were high and signing bonuses were common. My impression is that supply has increased greatly since then and now IT workers no longer need to be courted like they did then.

[dirty ethel rackham]

It's not that we lack trained IT professionals. We lack trained IT professionals who are willing to work as hard as needed to earn that nice paycheck. I could tell you what some of these kids expect or do. Their sense of entitlement never ceases to amaze me.

But there is not shortage of experienced hard-working IT personnel who have been laid off.  I haven't worked in the biz for nearly 20 years, but many of my peers were laid off so that their companies could transfer the work to India for about 1/4 of the salary cost.  Quality went down as I predicted.  Most of these people who were laid off were very good at their jobs, eager to train in the latest technology and ideas.  Most of those people had to find other careers because IT managers typically don't want to hire anyone over 50. 

[Arcadia]

Microsoft just laid off 18,000 people, not including contract workers. There are plenty of trained adults who could use nice paychecks, not all of them are kids.

Microsoft lay off the Nokia people. How many cellphone makers need to hire at this point in time?

Also 4,700 of the layoffs are from Beijing. Not sure what the layoffs numbers are for Taiwan and Japan's Nokia employees.

 

"Microsoft planned to cut most of the 5,000 employees at Nokia's handset factory and R&D center in Beijing, leaving a staff of only about 300," from WSJ

[JumpyTheFrog]

Whenever I read of the "shortage of workers," I translate it to what is probably closer to the truth: "There is a shortage of workers willing to work 50-70 hours per week, year after year, for $50,000, no 401k match, and in an environment where they are always worried about being laid off. What we really want are visa workers who are too afraid of losing their visa to complain about working conditions."

[JumpyTheFrog]

I'm hoping that at some point more of the companies that have outsourced work to India will be fed up with low quality work and/or communication barriers. DH is a programmer and the people providing his current project used to use one guy from China and one from Russia or Ukraine. Their work was garbage. Sure, they only charged about $10 per hour, but DH had to redo most of their work, so they just wasted their money. Now everyone is in the US except one Filipino guy who does decent work.

 

I've read in the past about a few companies who have brought jobs back from India to "insource" them to low cost of living states. I like that idea much better.

[Arcadia]

...What we really want are visa workers who are too afraid of losing their visa to complain about working conditions."

It depends on the company culture. Hubby's company applied and paid for our green cards application. We got our green cards within two years from coming to the states.

 

His company paid close to $8k to get us the H1B and H4 under expedited processing. Then we had generous relocation benefits and sign on bonus. The company paid everything for our green cards and did all the paperwork.

 

Where I stay, a family of 4 with an annual income of $56k can qualify for subsidized rental. H1b pays more than that because there is a clause to say the pay must be too high to qualify for welfare of any kind.

 

Cisco, Google, eBay and Intel are good to their H1b families too.

 

From Dept of Labor

"H-1B and H-1B1 Specialty (Professional) Workers must be paid the higher of the prevailing wage (average wage paid to similarly employed workers in the occupation in the area of employment) or the actual wage paid by the firm to workers with similar skills and qualifications."

[Slartibartfast]

Microsoft lay off the Nokia people. How many cellphone makers need to hire at this point in time?

Also 4,700 of the layoffs are from Beijing. Not sure what the layoffs numbers are for Taiwan and Japan's Nokia employees.

 

"Microsoft planned to cut most of the 5,000 employees at Nokia's handset factory and R&D center in Beijing, leaving a staff of only about 300," from WSJ

 

Those layoffs included IT jobs and those numbers do not include thousands of contract workers who were also laid off.

[Plateau Mama]

Those layoffs included IT jobs and those numbers do not include thousands of contract workers who were also laid off.

Those numbers also included factory/assembly workers that came with the acquisition of Nokia. That number is also worldwide. Less than 10% of those were in the Seattle area. So it's not like there is a glut of 18,000 experienced, qualified professionals now looking for work on the West Coast.

[SKL]

It isn't always one and it isn't always the other.  The decision to hire a new person is extremely complex, between the economic analyses and the labor and employment laws and trying to do the right thing.  (Yes, most managers do actually try to do the right thing.  But the prospective employee isn't the only person whose interests deserve to be considered.)

[SKL]

I find it informative that in a mass layoff situation, the people on H1B invariably keep their positions while the citizens are thrown out the door. It isn't a case of qualifications. Were I in the position of picking up talent, I'd be grabbing from the castoffs.

 

Maybe its not that way elsewhere, but it is what happened here. .

 

It could be because those on H1B visas will have to leave the country if they get laid off.  They can't just go get another job.

[FaithManor]

Dh is now working for a big company that brought it's comouter services back internal. Outsourcing turned out to be a bad deal due to poorly written code, terrible delays, the difficulty of arranging meetings between end users with the development team with an 11 hr. time change, deadlines being mere suggestions in some cultures, lack of understanding of US and Western European business practices. Some of the gys they brought over REALLY applied themselves and became valuable workers, and they were offered positions stateside. But the vast majority of the IT force for them now are middle aged guys like my dh, and managers were brought out of retirement to clean up the mess. Dh is very pleased with how he is being treated now. HP, on the other hand, was a nightmare!

 

Ultimately, places like HP do want workers who will put in 90 hrs. a week for peanuts and no benefits. Managers used to hail the overseas workers who slept at work and didn't go home for days at a time. Corporate lords oppressing corporate serfs...be thankful you have a job at all, be thankful we are benevolent enough to offer you a meager existence.

 

The big problem at work now is a desperate need for Oracle dba's and Java programmers with a good working knowledge of US business. The laid off workforce retrained for something else and are employed elsewhere, colleges stopped recommending comp sci as a major and some schools had a literal atrophy of their departments except for niches like hardware engineering and tech services or robotics programming. So there is a big gap and students are just now considering software engineering and professional certifications again. Companies looking for quality work or DoD contracts which means no offshore work are looking for help. Top notch schools have high placement rates. Michigan tech has 96% of their comp sci majors placed in jobs starting at 60,000 average with health and 401k before they graduate. But, the rates are much lower coming out of cc's, and non engineering/science heavy schools. Not all comp sci departments are created equal and some employers definitely have preferences.

[Arcadia]

I find it informative that in a mass layoff situation, the people on H1B invariably keep their positions while the citizens are thrown out the door.

When my hubby's former company (HQ near you) relocate his entire department, the locals choose to take the retrenchment benefits while the people on H1B opt to be relocated. To the outside world, it would look like only H1B were retained.

 

Hubby found a job before his last day there. His retrenchment benefits would not be worth waiting for because there was a competition clause.

[Slartibartfast]

Those numbers also included factory/assembly workers that came with the acquisition of Nokia. That number is also worldwide. Less than 10% of those were in the Seattle area. So it's not like there is a glut of 18,000 experienced, qualified professionals now looking for work on the West Coast.

 

That number doesn't include contract employees. There are many contract employees who work in IT. 

 

It doesn't say exactly how many Americans lost their jobs. 

 

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9249837/U.S._Senator_blasts_Microsoft_s_H_1B_push_as_it_lays_off_18_000_workers

[Kim in Appalachia]

From what I've seen in both the medical world and the tech world, it isn't really about not having enough qualified workers, it is about not having enough workers willing to work for less and/or in poor condition (meaning long hours, no job security, no benefits, etc.).

[AimeeM]

 

I am dubious that we lack trained IT professionals.

 

Same. My husband is an engineer. He works in an IT research field. There is NO shortage of applicants ANY time a position opens in the company. Any time he went on an interview before he worked with this company, he was one of many, many applicants - all qualified.

[Lanny]

Early in 2008, because of severely reduced income and the very weak U.S. Dollar, to my astonishment, I wrote a resume from memory and made it available to Job Shop Recruiters, looking for a temporary contract assignment. My skills were dated, but are very low level skills and extremely hard for someone to learn from scratch.

 

I remember so well, one customer in CA was looking for Contract Software Engineers to join their team. However, their project had a bad reputation, because they had a lot of people from India working on the project. I told the Job Shop Recruiters not to submit me to that client.

 

Eventually, the company building that Civil Turbojet Aircraft experienced very long delays getting the aircraft certified by the F.A.A. Probably part of that was because of the poor quality of the Avionics Software that had been produced by those Indians on H1-B visas. They had to redo much of that work.

 

Over the years, I worked with a bunch of excellent Engineers from China. I also worked with one man from Asia (I forget which country he was from, possibly China) who was highly intelligent, but none of us in the group understood why he wanted to do things on our project his way...

 

One problem with many people from India is that although they can “speak†English, the English they speak cannot be understood by most people who were born in the USA and that does create communications barriers.

 

One of the reasons that I began working on temporary contract assignments was that so many employers expect their Engineers to work a lot of unpaid overtime. As a contractor, I was paid for every hour that I worked. Sometimes, I was paid 1.5X my regular hourly rate, for overtime. Other times, I was paid my regular hourly rate for overtime.  

[QueenCat]

It could be because those on H1B visas will have to leave the country if they get laid off.  They can't just go get another job.

 

My dad used to work for the dept that oversaw H1B visas. These workers were NEVER supposed to be able to stay here forever. They were supposed to be viewed as temporary until an American citizen could fill the position(s). There are so many issues with the program, beginning with what companies are allowed to do to get less experienced, foreign workers under the guise of "no Americans qualify". Makes my dad's blood boil at the abuses of the program. He is so glad he is retired.

[JumpyTheFrog]

In my current state, there is a teacher shortage. Teachers are leaving in droves for states that pay more. Starting pay in my district is $35,000 with no raises for seven years. Pay is capped at $50,000 after thirty years. In contrast, in my home state, DH's aunt and cousin are looking for teaching jobs. There are 400 applicants per spot. I don't know what the pay is there, but where I grew up, one of my gym teachers is making $90,000. A classmate with seven years experience is making $62,000 as a high school math teacher. The COL is higher there, mostly because of high property taxes, but I'd say not more than 25-40% higher. Teachers are paid well (maybe too well) and as a result, there is no shortage.

[LostSurprise]

DH and I found it an interesting discussion because his father is skilled blue collar labor so the back and forth is familiar, and the themes of the supply & demand of the trucking industry make an interesting counterpoint to the culture of the tech industry. 

 

In software there is a definite problem with ageism. Companies want to pay college students already trained in up-to-the-minute technology. Its cheaper to hire contractors (nearly 50% of H1Bs do contract work in the US so it is easily outsourced when they return to their home country) than to train your own staff in new technologies every year or two. Younger workers (usually unmarried or without children) are also willing to work 80+ hrs/week for lower pay...with the idea that it will help them up the ladder. Meanwhile the positions they want are occupied unless the company can find a way to unload older workers. Unless they have a niche, many of them find themselves out. 

 

On another front, companies are coming to community colleges claiming a lack of skilled labor but when recruiters recruit students they find the positions are low paying...even once you've paid off your education. Government programs will often step in to help pay for the "lack of unskilled workers" but the skills do not lead to better paying jobs. DH has friends on both the education side (they want to help unemployed workers, they want to create skilled workers) and the student side (the 'help' isn't worthwhile because the skill doesn't lead to a career with growth). Frustrating. 

[LostSurprise]

It's not that we lack trained IT professionals. We lack trained IT professionals who are willing to work as hard as needed to earn that nice paycheck. I could tell you what some of these kids expect or do. Their sense of entitlement never ceases to amaze me.

 

This is not our experience, although I do not know what your definitions of "IT professional," "work as hard as needed," or "entitlement" are. 

[Arcadia]

DH has friends on both the education side (they want to help unemployed workers, they want to create skilled workers) and the student side (the 'help' isn't worthwhile because the skill doesn't lead to a career with growth). Frustrating.

I read an article "Summer school? Teens trade classes for factory jobs" a few days before on WSJ. Wonder whether this kind of program is possible nationwide

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/summer-school-teens-trade-classes-for-factory-jobs-1407435440?mobile=y

 

Are there internship or co-op programs in the community college your hubby's friends work in? Interns do tend to land a job.

[JumpyTheFrog]

48 part interview? What on earth did it involve?

[Arcadia]

The hard thing is those people often want to stay. We've know a few personally who just found other sponsors.

It is not true though that H1B workers are meant to be only temp. The PERM process is there for employers to help their H1B workers get permanent residency for their immediate family.

 

" How long do you have to be on the H1B visa in order to begin the PERM process?

Merely one day; since H1B has dual immigrant intent" from Rice U faq.

 

There are employers who didn't begin the PERM process for their employees though. PERM is not cheap and the employer pays.

 

Hubby's former company started the PERM process within six months of my hubby working in the states. We got our green cards fast.

 

ETA:

From Dartmouth

"The H-1B visa is considered a "dual intent" visa, and allows the applicant to intend to remain in the United States and pursue US permanent residency."

[shawthorne44]

I'm exaggerating.  But yeah they often have very lengthy and multiple interviews.

 

DH said that on a regular basis they wait so long to make an offer where he works that people have found something somewhere else already.

 

I had that happen to me.  I'd already found my dream job.  

The interview was ridiculous.  She kept asking me to describe when certain things happened, and then kept asking me how I had felt at many points in the scenario.  At first I just guessed what I was feeling.  Then I stopped and told her I was just guessing because remembering what I was feeling just wasn't something I did.  This was a data mining job.  Just me asking questions of the database.  One of those jobs where being in touch with your feelings isn't important.  

[regentrude]

It is not true though that H1B workers are meant to be only temp. The PERM process is there for employers to help their H1B workers get permanent residency for their immediate family.

 

" How long do you have to be on the H1B visa in order to begin the PERM process?

Merely one day; since H1B has dual immigrant intent" from Rice U faq.

 

There are employers who didn't begin the PERM process for their employees though. PERM is not cheap and the employer pays.

Hubby's former company started the PERM process within six months of my hubby working in the states. We got our green cards fast.

ETA:

From Dartmouth

"The H-1B visa is considered a "dual intent" visa, and allows the applicant to intend to remain in the United States and pursue US permanent residency."

 

All the faculty members hired in our department over the last 15 years started with H1-B on tenure track positions which are meant to lead to permanent employment; the H1-B is the tool to bridge the gap between the beginning of employment and the granting of permanent leagal resident status (Green card).

Our employer does not pay for the GC process; it is rather expensive for a family. ours cost altogether 10k and the process dragged out for four years.

 

[Slartibartfast]

DH and I found it an interesting discussion because his father is skilled blue collar labor so the back and forth is familiar, and the themes of the supply & demand of the trucking industry make an interesting counterpoint to the culture of the tech industry. 

 

In software there is a definite problem with ageism. Companies want to pay college students already trained in up-to-the-minute technology. Its cheaper to hire contractors (nearly 50% of H1Bs do contract work in the US so it is easily outsourced when they return to their home country) than to train your own staff in new technologies every year or two. Younger workers (usually unmarried or without children) are also willing to work 80+ hrs/week for lower pay...with the idea that it will help them up the ladder. Meanwhile the positions they want are occupied unless the company can find a way to unload older workers. Unless they have a niche, many of them find themselves out. 

 

On another front, companies are coming to community colleges claiming a lack of skilled labor but when recruiters recruit students they find the positions are low paying...even once you've paid off your education. Government programs will often step in to help pay for the "lack of unskilled workers" but the skills do not lead to better paying jobs. DH has friends on both the education side (they want to help unemployed workers, they want to create skilled workers) and the student side (the 'help' isn't worthwhile because the skill doesn't lead to a career with growth). Frustrating. 

 

Exactly. I could not agree more.

[QueenCat]

It is not true though that H1B workers are meant to be only temp. The PERM process is there for employers to help their H1B workers get permanent residency for their immediate family.

 

" How long do you have to be on the H1B visa in order to begin the PERM process?

Merely one day; since H1B has dual immigrant intent" from Rice U faq.

 

There are employers who didn't begin the PERM process for their employees though. PERM is not cheap and the employer pays.

 

Hubby's former company started the PERM process within six months of my hubby working in the states. We got our green cards fast.

 

ETA:

From Dartmouth

"The H-1B visa is considered a "dual intent" visa, and allows the applicant to intend to remain in the United States and pursue US permanent residency."

 

It may be now but that was NOT the original intent. Since my dad worked in that dept, we have had lengthy discussions on the matter. He knows what he is talking about. Even though he has been retired for about ten years now, he still gets disgusted when he thinks about how poorly the program is currently managed, and how much it changed from it's original intent.

 

[regentrude]

My dad used to work for the dept that oversaw H1B visas. These workers were NEVER supposed to be able to stay here forever. They were supposed to be viewed as temporary until an American citizen could fill the position(s). There are so many issues with the program, beginning with what companies are allowed to do to get less experienced, foreign workers under the guise of "no Americans qualify".

 

There are, however, job searches where really no American candidate qualifies. For the last 15 years, every single search in our department has ended with the hire of a foreigner. I recall that during the last few, even the short lists of 5-6 top candidates did not include any Americans. The criteria for selection are very objective, mainly number of scientific publications in top journals. And no, colleges are not allowed to offer foreigners lower salaries; salaries have to be comparable.

 

The H1B process is the only way for a university to hire a foreigner for a tenure track position, i.e. a position that is intended to lead to permanent employment. (But going through the process is  a lot more headache and paperwork for the hiring chair than simply hiring an American.)

 

BTW, it is not surprising that there are no qualified Americans for a faculty position, since we struggle to even recruit American graduate students. Most grad students are from abroad. Trust me, this is not by preference - it would be nice to have grad students who are fluent in English.

 

[regentrude]

It may be now but that was NOT the original intent. Since my dad worked in that dept, we have had lengthy discussions on the matter. He knows what he is talking about. Even though he has been retired for about ten years now, he still gets disgusted when he thinks about how poorly the program is currently managed, and how much it changed from it's original intent.

 

So what, in your opinion, WOULD be the intended way to hire a foreigner permanently? GC is too slow and not really feasible.

[QueenCat]

So what, in your opinion, WOULD be the intended way to hire a foreigner permanently? GC is too slow and not really feasible.

 

Long term, I'd like to see our educational system improve so that it is NOT necessary to look outside of the United States. I'm am the daughter of an immigrant, so I am certainly not against immigration but I am for a better educated society. I also know, in reference to your other post, that there absolutely are companies that write up the job descriptions in such a way that only specific foreign candidates will qualify. That may not be the case where you work but it certainly happens

[Slartibartfast]

There are, however, job searches where really no American candidate qualifies. For the last 15 years, every single search in our department has ended with the hire of a foreigner. I recall that during the last few, even the short lists of 5-6 top candidates did not include any Americans. The criteria for selection are very objective, mainly number of scientific publications in top journals. And no, colleges are not allowed to offer foreigners lower salaries; salaries have to be comparable.

 

The H1B process is the only way for a university to hire a foreigner for a tenure track position, i.e. a position that is intended to lead to permanent employment. (But going through the process is  a lot more headache and paperwork for the hiring chair than simply hiring an American.)

 

BTW, it is not surprising that there are no qualified Americans for a faculty position, since we struggle to even recruit American graduate students. Most grad students are from abroad. Trust me, this is not by preference - it would be nice to have grad students who are fluent in English.

 

 

In light of all the issues that have been going on with tenure and post-graduate  in this country I find this hard to believe. Is this position being advertised in such a way that American grad students aren't aware of it? What qualifications are involved that no American qualifies?

[regentrude]

In light of all the issues that have been going on with tenure and post-graduate  in this country I find this hard to believe. Is this position being advertised in such a way that American grad students aren't aware of it? What qualifications are involved that no American qualifies?

 

Of course. Faculty positions are advertised both online and in the journals read by  the community. This is required. Everybody looking for a job knows where to look. The 60-100 people who apply for each position obviously found out. Only a small minority of the applicants are Americans. Btw, a grad student would not be looking for a faculty position at a research university; to be qualified would require at least 2-4 years of postdoctoral research experience.

The first criterion is the number of publications in well respected journals. Your research interests and expertise must fit the field for which the position is intended (in other words, if it's a job as a condensed matter experimentalist, an atomic theorist will not be considered - no matter how well published). Where you received your graduate degree matters a little, and at what institution you are currently working matters as well.

Each of the top 5-6 candidates is invited for a two day interview during which they give two presentations and talk to a dozen people.

After that, the offer goes to the one the search committee considered best. There is absolutely no incentive to specifically pick foreigners - they pick the best, because nothing else would be in the department's interest. The people who make the decision are the people who will be working with the new person for the next few decades.

(Btw, the search committee is actually required by HR to list for each applicant the reason he/she was not chosen.)

 

Or are you referring to graduate school admission? There, the most important feature is a good GRE score in the subject GRE, plus undergraduate research experience if possible, and then of course, grades.

[regentrude]

What are the reasons so few go this route in the US?  Is it expense of education?  Is it lack of interest?  Are Americans too stupid?

 

My guess would be lack of interest, aggravated by the abysmal state of math and science education in school.

I don't think expense of education is a factor - students spend the money to major in all kinds of subjects (even ones with dismal employment prospects). Many consider physics too hard.

Continuing the education in grad school would be free; all physics grad students are supported by their departments, either through TA or RA that cover tuition and a stipend for living expenses.

 

ETA: the anti-science atmosphere in this country certainly does not help matters.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

I would suspect that the amount of research being done in the U.S., sponsored by the federal gov't,  has decreased greatly compared to 30 years ago, so there are fewer opportunties for American physicists to do research and build their careers.

 

Does the university provide opportunities for people to do post-grad research that would qualify them for this position? Seems to me this would be part of a research university's mission.  If they don't, they really can't complain that few Americans apply.  If they do, why don't they groom their own researchers for the positions?

 

It sounds like they (the uni) are expecting them (the postdocs) to be trained/supported on someone else's dime, then hire the finished product.  

 

SImply doesn't work when everyone is doing the same thing.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I thought there was a huge oversupply of people with doctorates looking to be professors in most fields, especially science. Is it possible that your university can't find Americans that have published enough because most of the recent PhDs are stuck being adjuncts at multiple colleges for low pay, which leaves them little time to do research? I keep reading about people getting stuck working as adjuncts for $10 per hour.

[JumpyTheFrog]

If they do, why don't they groom their own researchers for the positions?

 

It sounds like they (the uni) are expecting them (the postdocs) to be trained/supported on someone else's dime, then hire the finished product.  

 

Yeah, unless all the doctoral candidates at Regentrude's university are foreign, I'd think they'd have a few Americans each year that would love to be groomed to be future professors there. If they are ignoring these students, who presumably were promising enough to let into the program, then it sounds like they might be trying to hire "purple squirrels." (For those who haven't heard this term before, it refers to employers who claim they can't find anyone qualified, when in reality they only want to hire someone who is an expert in multiple fields that no one person ever masters, and even if they did, they wouldn't work at that salary. For example, they might want an expert programmer who is also good at public relations and graphic design. Then they complain they can't find anyone qualified because their expectations were ridiculous.)

[regentrude]

Does the university provide opportunities for people to do post-grad research that would qualify them for this position? Seems to me this would be part of a research university's mission.  If they don't, they really can't complain that few Americans apply.  If they do, why don't they groom their own researchers for the positions?

It sounds like they (the uni) are expecting them (the postdocs) to be trained/supported on someone else's dime, then hire the finished product. 

 

What is "the university"? The university itself has income from tuition and (limited) tax funding and is barely managing to educate undergrads. The university does not have any funds for research. If you are a professor, the university won't give you funds to attend conferences, present your work, purchase experimental equipment or computers beyond your startup package you receive when you are hired. If the prof does not acquire outside grants, he can't fund his research. Colleagues who lost their NSF funding have given up their research because they are unable to fund the operating expenses of their lab - universities do not have sources of money that can pay for that.

 

If a professor has an outside grant and enough money coming from that, he can hire a postdoc to do research. Since the funding options have declined and competition is fierce, many professors do not have the resources to hire a postdoc.

 

But the issue is not a lack of postdoc opportunities - many of the foreigners who apply have been doing postdoc positions in the US.

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/01/dont-hire-the-perfect-candidat/

 

Here's an excerpt from the above site.

 

 

 

At the crux of this problem is the “purple squirrel,†a term recruiters and hiring managers use to define the rarest of candidates, almost mythical in nature. These candidates are near-impossible to find in an ultra-competitive industry and possess the perfect mix of skills, education and experience. A good purple squirrel will work for peanuts (also known as the pay and benefits you’re willing to offer) and just happens to live in the same town as your company.

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Ok, so your graduates need to go somewhere else to do their postdocs. Do any of them ever come back to try to get a job there after?

[regentrude]

Yeah, unless all the doctoral candidates at Regentrude's university are foreign, I'd think they'd have a few Americans each year that would love to be groomed to be future professors there. If they are ignoring these students, who presumably were promising enough to let into the program, then it sounds like they might be trying to hire "purple squirrels."

 

Are you familiar with the educational process that is needed to become a professor at a research university?

First of all, not every graduate student has what it takes to be a professor at a research university. Only the very best are cut out for that. Just because somebody manages to get a PhD does not mean he is the kind of creative researcher that is needed. Most are better served with jobs in industry. Most of our foreign grad students return to their home countries and may get faculty positions there.

 

Second, it is part of the training that a PhD goes to a different institution for a post doc, and that a post doc will be appointed as faculty at yet another institution. Keeping a grad student on as a postdoc with the intent to hire him later as faculty creates an inferior system with all kinds of issues. Working at different institutions, with different advisors, and possibly in different countries, is absolutely essential for broadening the horizon and developing skills of the young researcher and an integral part of the training. You don't want somebody who spent all his life in the same place.

[regentrude]

I thought there was a huge oversupply of people with doctorates looking to be professors in most fields, especially science. Is it possible that your university can't find Americans that have published enough because most of the recent PhDs are stuck being adjuncts at multiple colleges for low pay, which leaves them little time to do research? I keep reading about people getting stuck working as adjuncts for $10 per hour.

 

Not physicists.

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

The university does not have any funds for research. If you are a professor, the university won't give you funds to attend conferences, present your work, purchase experimental equipment or computers beyond your startup package you receive when you are hired. 

 

Is this situation common in your field at other universities? If most other universities offer more financial support to professors who want to do research, then I can see why few Americans would apply. They might see it as an impediment to career advancement, unless they are skilled in getting grants. On the other hand, professors that prefer teaching might like it better.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Are you familiar with the educational process that is needed to become a professor at a research university?

 No, I wasn't familiar. Thanks for the explanation. I can understand wanting to avoid "inbreeding."

 

So is the huge oversupply is more in biology and chemistry then?

[regentrude]

Ok, so your graduates need to go somewhere else to do their postdocs. Do any of them ever come back to try to get a job there after?

 

A postdoc is qualified in a certain field.

He will apply in specifically one year, when his postdoc is about to run out.

In a given year, the number of open faculty positions in his field will be about 15 in the entire country.

Positions are re-filled when a professor retires (if they are not cancelled or frozen because there is no money, as has happened repeatedly in the past)

 

The probability that just in the particular year the young scientist is searching for a job a professor at his old institution in that particular field has just retired and the position is open for hire is practically zero.

 

If you want a life in academia, you have to be prepared to move.

[regentrude]

Is this situation common in your field at other universities? If most other universities offer more financial support to professors who want to do research, then I can see why few Americans would apply. They might see it as an impediment to career advancement, unless they are skilled in getting grants. On the other hand, professors that prefer teaching might like it better.

 

Yes, that is standard.

In fact, even graduate students who work as RAs have to be paid from grant money their advisor has obtained; the university has only money to pay them as TAs for labs or recitations. Very rich schools may have some money to pay graduate RAs. Post doc funding is not provided by any university.