JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Why I came across this article I will never know but it is a good reminder for applicants about finding the line between using an application essay to share about your self, your life, your passions, and your struggles and when it all just becomes TMI. Based on some of the comments in the article this could easily result in a homeschooling article titled "How CPS ended up on my doorstep thanks to a concerned college admissions officer." From the NYT--Naked Confessions of the College Bound: Oversharing in Admissions Essays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Wow. Just wow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 This is what jumped out at me, even more than the students' TMI: Michele Hernandez, another prominent admissions counselor, runs one or more sessions of anApplication Boot Camp every summer in which roughly 25 to 30 kids will be tucked away for four days in a hotel to work with a team of about eight editors on what she told me were as many as 10 drafts of each of three to five different essays. The camp costs $14,000 per student. That doesn’t include travel to it, the hotel bill, breakfast or dinners, but it does include lunch and a range of guidance, both before and during the four days, on how students should fill out college applications and best showcase themselves. $14,000, plus travel and hotel expenses, for 4 days of help with an application essay?! :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 The New York Times always manages to find the most extreme affluenza take on any aspect of college admissions! It is perhaps fun to read but not particularly relevant to the majority of kids applying. While I agree that teens are often not that good at realizing what impression they are making, most don't go to the TMI style. As an independent college counselor one of the things I do is coach students on essays. I read quite a wide range of essays from different students and see a broad range of first drafts. There are other problems I see much more often than TMI. One common situation are kids who have an idea of what they believe a college essay should be like. Maybe they've looked at samples online or read "best essay" books. These suggest the essay should be dramatic like a Hallmark movie of the week with lots of flowery descriptive language and SAT words. This leads students to write fake essays that are difficult to read and won't make a good impression. Another common problem is sort of the opposite of TMI... I call it "just the facts ma'am." These are students, many of them our future STEM majors, who have as their natural tendency to reveal no specific information. They sometimes write first drafts like they are in the witness protection program and can't reveal any details, and then they refuse to let their parents read them. ;-) Often these students just feel really uncomfortable with personal writing of any kind which is totally reasonable because they often don't have an idea how they can write something personal that isn't TMI or fake flowery. They need a gentle encouragement to reflect a bit and realize their thoughts and experiences have value. I really enjoy this group of teens and it is rewarding see them go from a tortured first draft to a genuine essay they are really proud of. I see a value in this process that goes beyond the essays themselves. When it is done right, essay writing can help students bring a better sense of themselves into college admissions and the transition to college. For anyone getting started on essays, here are a few articles from my website that I hope you find to be helpful: Common Application Essays Admissions Essays, Think about your Audience Common Essay Traps to Avoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 $14,000, plus travel and hotel expenses, for 4 days of help with an application essay?! :eek: And every year people here wonder if it's OK for Mom to edit!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 And every year people here wonder if it's OK for Mom to edit!! Oh my word, you are not kidding! Ds wrote an essay that included aspects of his backpacking trip through the Grand Canyon that included a mention of a very mildly scatalogical incident. I strongly suggested that ds edit that part out. Sometimes you just have to wonder what on earth they are thinking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura in CA Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Another common problem is sort of the opposite of TMI... I call it "just the facts ma'am." These are students, many of them our future STEM majors, who have as their natural tendency to reveal no specific information. They sometimes write first drafts like they are in the witness protection program and can't reveal any details, and then they refuse to let their parents read them. ;-) Often these students just feel really uncomfortable with personal writing of any kind which is totally reasonable because they often don't have an idea how they can write something personal that isn't TMI or fake flowery. They need a gentle encouragement to reflect a bit and realize their thoughts and experiences have value. I really enjoy this group of teens and it is rewarding see them go from a tortured first draft to a genuine essay they are really proud of. I see a value in this process that goes beyond the essays themselves. When it is done right, essay writing can help students bring a better sense of themselves into college admissions and the transition to college. I have one (or two) of these kinds of kids. I like your description! Witness protection program LOL. And yes, an outside adult giving gentle encouragement can be very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 This is what jumped out at me, even more than the students' TMI: $14,000, plus travel and hotel expenses, for 4 days of help with an application essay?! :eek: :svengo: That $14,00 alone would pay for BOTH of Diamond's Associate's degrees, all of her books NEW, AND allow her to take all of the dance classes and dance teacher training courses that she can't afford right now. The travel, hotel, & meals expenses would buy her a nice used car. :glare: Dangit I really wish I had an unlimited budget. :cursing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 They sometimes write first drafts like they are in the witness protection program and can't reveal any details, and then they refuse to let their parents read them. ;-) :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Corraleno, on 15 Jun 2014 - 10:22 AM, said: This is what jumped out at me, even more than the students' TMI: $14,000, plus travel and hotel expenses, for 4 days of help with an application essay?! :eek: :svengo: That $14,00 alone would pay for BOTH of Diamond's Associate's degrees, all of her books NEW, AND allow her to take all of the dance classes and dance teacher training courses that she can't afford right now. The travel, hotel, & meals expenses would buy her a nice used car. :glare: Dangit I really wish I had an unlimited budget. :cursing: Just finishing my thoughts... even though Community College is Diamond's first choice school, it always astounds me how much money people spend on things like this. If they spend $14K on a single focused essay-writing class, how much do they spend on everything else? I can't even begin to imagine where or if it ends. :willy_nilly: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Corraleno, on 15 Jun 2014 - 10:22 AM, said: Just finishing my thoughts... even though Community College is Diamond's first choice school, it always astounds me how much money people spend on things like this. If they spend $14K on a single focused essay-writing class, how much do they spend on everything else? I can't even begin to imagine where or if it ends. :willy_nilly: And if you have that much money to spend on it, why not just get a private tutor or coach or something? Unless it's in a cool location and you can combine it with a family vacation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 It wasn't so much the money for application camps--I know there are private admissions counselors out there and some charge a fortune. I know that in some social circles and geographic areas this is what parents do to help their kids. Yes, the money is outrageous. I was far more concerned about what the kids thought was acceptable to include in their essays. Some of it was so dramatic and worrying that college admissions officers called high school guidance counselors to be sure the kids were ok and receiving guidance on what to put in an essay. In posting the article I wasn't trying to express my outrage with the cost that private advisers charge. I was hoping to point out what a growing trend in essays appears to be and how succumbing to it might actually be detrimental to a successful application. There is a line between letting the admissions department get to know you and over-sharing and (possibly) outright lies for dramatic effect/sympathy. They sometimes write first drafts like they are in the witness protection program and can't reveal any details, and then they refuse to let their parents read them. ;-) Barbara H-that was a classic! Is anyone here keeping a list of memorable WTM post quotes because this needs to be among them :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I have far better things to do with $14,000.00. Having been on the receiving end of judging essays for students competing for our county's 4-H scholarship I can honestly say that MOST of the time we never see TMI. We see a lot of kids who cannot create a coherent sentence much less a paragraph nor have the slightest idea what an essay actually is. We have kids who produce so little content that the essay is little more than blather and drivel. We have kids who think it's an opportunity to practically write free form poetry. But only one or two in the pack who can actually write an essay and have that essay say anything meaningful about them. So, if their 4-H accomplishments are in line with the requirements and they produce a real honest to goodness essay, they win. Given that I go through this annually for just a county $2500.00 award, I have to say that I would NOT want to do this for a living as a college admission's representative. No thanks. I'd much rather be somewhere teaching algebra or chemistry and oblivious to the profound writing defects of the average graduating class! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredHSmom Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I was far more concerned about what the kids thought was acceptable to include in their essays. Some of it was so dramatic and worrying that college admissions officers called high school guidance counselors to be sure the kids were ok and receiving guidance on what to put in an essay. In posting the article I wasn't trying to express my outrage with the cost that private advisers charge. I was hoping to point out what a growing trend in essays appears to be and how succumbing to it might actually be detrimental to a successful application. There is a line between letting the admissions department get to know you and over-sharing and (possibly) outright lies for dramatic effect/sympathy. I was surprised by some of the TMI mentions also. I cannot imagine how urinating on yourself could ever be construed as a strength. However, I was also saddened to see some of the other things that are "no-nos" to mention. I may be way too close to the problem right now due to life experiences but my daughter just completed her junior year of college with the highest GPA in her graduating class, research experience, a highly coveted internship acceptance and a Student Government executive council position. She also left with a severe eating disorder. She has spent the last four weeks in hospitalized treatment and will be in treatment all summer. She just resigned from her college, is taking the fall off and is transferring for the spring semester. Of course the new college wants to know why she is transferring and the essay question is about the greatest challenge in your life. It goes without saying that the greatest challenge in her life has been accepting that she had an issue, seeking treatment, turning down a lucrative, highly desired internship to receive that treatment and then knowing that she need a new atmosphere to be successful. Her experiences have made her a better person, a better student and way more mature than her years. She will not be at school to party or take the easy way out. She knows the value of hard work. All of these make her a great student to accept but unfortunately she can't share that in her essay. So she is transferring from a very small school to a very large school "to take advantage of the greater opportunities available" at the larger school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 It goes without saying that the greatest challenge in her life has been accepting that she had an issue, seeking treatment, turning down a lucrative, highly desired internship to receive that treatment and then knowing that she need a new atmosphere to be successful. Her experiences have made her a better person, a better student and way more mature than her years. I wish her every success as she goes through treatment and moves on to her new college. Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okra Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 It goes without saying that the greatest challenge in her life has been accepting that she had an issue, seeking treatment, turning down a lucrative, highly desired internship to receive that treatment and then knowing that she need a new atmosphere to be successful. Her experiences have made her a better person, a better student and way more mature than her years. She will not be at school to party or take the easy way out. She knows the value of hard work. All of these make her a great student to accept but unfortunately she can't share that in her essay. So she is transferring from a very small school to a very large school "to take advantage of the greater opportunities available" at the larger school. To me, this isn't TMI, this is, "I've met with some of the hard realities of life and I've grown from it." Life isn't always nice and pretty. It seems that colleges would want to have students with life experiences that have made them more mature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawthorne44 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Like a PP, I've read many scholarship essays. I am part of the early screening process, final decision is left to others. To get past the first screening requires near-perfect grammar. If we laugh AT you, you are eliminated. Really, that is all. A shocking number are eliminated just on those two things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 It goes without saying that the greatest challenge in her life has been accepting that she had an issue, seeking treatment, turning down a lucrative, highly desired internship to receive that treatment and then knowing that she need a new atmosphere to be successful. Her experiences have made her a better person, a better student and way more mature than her years. She will not be at school to party or take the easy way out. She knows the value of hard work. All of these make her a great student to accept but unfortunately she can't share that in her essay. So she is transferring from a very small school to a very large school "to take advantage of the greater opportunities available" at the larger school. I hope nobody gets the take away message from that article that students should not reveal anything personal. People who work in admissions are real people who want information to view student in the best light possible. There are absolutely situations in which it makes sense for students to share difficult experiences or hardships and particularly when it comes to blemishes on the academic record that really need to be explained. If a student failed some classes because they were in the hospital or their parent died, admissions needs to know that so they aren't left to assume the kid was just lazy or partying. If the student has a strong academic record there is more flexibility and choice in whether they decide to reveal. I do not think this is a clear cut right or wrong one size fits all policy. Some students prefer to be more private and others feel the difference/hardship/challenge is a fundamental part of who they are and they want to share it. The decision to reveal or not is an individual one that needs to be based on a full examination of the circumstances. For students who reveal it generally works best to share it from a positive perspective with some degree of resolution - so "there was a hard situation, here's what I did to fix it, here's what I need to keep doing and why I'm hopeful for the future." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredHSmom Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I hope nobody gets the take away message from that article that students should not reveal anything personal. People who work in admissions are real people who want information to view student in the best light possible. There are absolutely situations in which it makes sense for students to share difficult experiences or hardships and particularly when it comes to blemishes on the academic record that really need to be explained. If a student failed some classes because they were in the hospital or their parent died, admissions needs to know that so they aren't left to assume the kid was just lazy or partying. If the student has a strong academic record there is more flexibility and choice in whether they decide to reveal. I do not think this is a clear cut right or wrong one size fits all policy. Some students prefer to be more private and others feel the difference/hardship/challenge is a fundamental part of who they are and they want to share it. The decision to reveal or not is an individual one that needs to be based on a full examination of the circumstances. For students who reveal it generally works best to share it from a positive perspective with some degree of resolution - so "there was a hard situation, here's what I did to fix it, here's what I need to keep doing and why I'm hopeful for the future." Barbara, as I said in my first post, I am probably oversensitive as this whole topic is very current in our lives. The NY Times article specifically mentioned leaving out ED references and I am on a message board for parents of ED patients and it has been mentioned there too that it is best to leave it out. Unfortunately, there are too many misconceptions about ED and many people do not understand that it is actually an illness caused by brain chemicals but think that it is just stuck up girls being oversensitive to messages from the media. Fortunately my daughter's academic record is so strong (she has a 3.95 GPA) that she doesn't really need to explain any weakness. It just stinks that while this has been her biggest challenge she should probably not acknowledge that part of the experiences that have made her the strong young woman she is. Frankly I am tired of the whole high-pressure atmosphere that has sprung up around college admissions. I think that I am pulling my son off the merry-go-round and he is going to enjoy his high school years and college years and attend a state school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Instead of mentioning ED, can she just say it was a mental health issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Another common problem is sort of the opposite of TMI... I call it "just the facts ma'am." These are students, many of them our future STEM majors, who have as their natural tendency to reveal no specific information. They sometimes write first drafts like they are in the witness protection program and can't reveal any details, and then they refuse to let their parents read them. ;-) Often these students just feel really uncomfortable with personal writing of any kind which is totally reasonable because they often don't have an idea how they can write something personal that isn't TMI or fake flowery. They need a gentle encouragement to reflect a bit and realize their thoughts and experiences have value. I really enjoy this group of teens and it is rewarding see them go from a tortured first draft to a genuine essay they are really proud of. I see a value in this process that goes beyond the essays themselves. When it is done right, essay writing can help students bring a better sense of themselves into college admissions and the transition to college. You just described both of my boys to a tee. My oldest did let me read his and I had to ask him lots of leading questions in order to get anything out of him. My second child would not let me read anything beyond a first draft. I had to encourage them to enlist the aid of a family friend who knows them well to work on editing. I never did read the final draft of my second son's essay. All I know is that one college that accepted him loved his description of himself as the "anti-Duggar" (as they mentioned on his acceptance letter.) Said kid loves metal music, has long curly hair down to his mid-back, and is pretty non-conformist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Fortunately my daughter's academic record is so strong (she has a 3.95 GPA) that she doesn't really need to explain any weakness. I agree. It is a very individual case by case decision with all challenges and disabilities. There are situations where it makes sense to disclose because it really has to be and there are situations where it is best not disclose. I hope your daughter can find good resources and support at her new school. Wishing you both strength through treatment and the next steps of her college journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Tania maybe your daughter could talk about the greatest challenge being leaving a college, where she's clearly excelling, for the greater challenges and opportunities at the larger university. They don't need TMI and this would show that she seeks challenges and new experiences to help her grow academically and as a person. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 First of all, I wish Tania's daughter all the best as she recovers and moves on her to her next big adventure. Secondly, I think, as I have said before, there is a fine line between sharing difficult moments in your life an TMI; especially at such a young age. Putting a difficult experience on paper may seem useful and relevant in the moment but I think it always pays to keep a long term viewpoint; 20 or 30 years later will you want that information on paper that is out of your reach and control? I'm not advocating the "witness protection program" essay but rather being selective about what, when, where and how you reveal information about yourself. Certainly some of the examples in the article are pieces of information that do not reflect positively on the applicant and were unnecessary. As a PP said-life experiences can be insightful, especially if they are carefully selected and presented in a positive light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredHSmom Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Tania maybe your daughter could talk about the greatest challenge being leaving a college, where she's clearly excelling, for the greater challenges and opportunities at the larger university. They don't need TMI and this would show that she seeks challenges and new experiences to help her grow academically and as a person. Just a thought. Thank You!! I have been trying to figure out how to make the "greater opportunities" angle sound a little better and more convincing. I think you solved the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momacacia Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 This doesn't greatly surprise me. What with the social media and FB generation, overshading can be everywhere, but it's also a greater general loss of etiquette and good manners. I'm not speaking of true life issues, I mean the anatomical oversharing or weeing on oneself or declaring oneself a Casanova. Poor manners, lack of tact and discretion, complete failure to understand how pride impacts one's image, and how a little class and good manners can go a looooong way. Maybe this is one reason educating "the whole soul" and all that classical ed philosophy stuff really is important. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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