Elements of Mathematics - could this replace AoPS?

[happyhome]

 

There are no online instructors and no instructor support. There is a help forum where students can post/answer questions, but that is it. Students are expected to be able to complete the courses on their own; no teachers involved (except parents).

 

 

 

 

I was told this morning that the forum is not students only.  There are supposedly TAs that chime in and point kids in the right direction.  I understood that the animations do the teaching but if a child gets stuck, the forums are somewhat supportive in nature.  AoPS forums are similar.  The TAs and writers are on there often, helping out.  Is your dc actually doing the class?  This would be a deal breaker for me to use it as a whole curriculum.  If this is true, it goes to supplemental status.

[Clear Creek]

 

I was told this morning that the forum is not students only.  There are supposedly TAs that chime in and point kids in the right direction.  I understood that the animations do the teaching but if a child gets stuck, the forums are somewhat supportive in nature.  AoPS forums are similar.  The TAs and writers are on there often, helping out.  Is your dc actually doing the class?  This would be a deal breaker for me to use it as a whole curriculum.  If this is true, it goes to supplemental status.

 

 

Ah, I see. It was not that way when my daughter took the first class, it was just other students on the forum. That's why I never considered it as more than supplemental...I struggled helping her with the operational systems class (never before in my life did math in other bases!!), so I imagined I would not be able to help her much in future classes. The FAQ's seemed to say that it was still that way, so I didn't bother checking with them to see if there was any additional help available now for the students.

 

That, and the prices...for  the price of the first class I got the AOPS prealgebra textbook, and for the price of the second class (which is still prealgebra) I can get the AOPS Intro to Algebra textbook, and so on. But if money were no object for me, I would continue using the classes as a supplement because they contribute highly to mathematical thinking.

[Dana]

 

If anyone has comments on how long these courses might take for 11 year olds who have been through AoPS Prealgebra and part of Intro to Algebra, I'd love to hear..

 

I think it would likely take as long for someone who hasn't taken those courses. EM material really does go through things with a formal mathematical approach. I think looking at the MEGSSS link gives a good idea of "expected" ability during a year.

 

Can we talk some more?  I'm very excited about this for my ds (trying to light a fire over here and this puzzle-solving, on-line format seems a bit more up his alley than AoPS has been), but I'm trying to find more information on the content of the courses.  Are the courses all available and ready - are some of them just not click-able because the student has to earn their way through first?  I can't see all the course descriptions.  While I realize these courses do not align with a standard sequence, it would be nice to see when various standard algebra 1 and 2 concepts are taught, for example.  My boys are in a relativley flexible school at the moment, but by 9th grade they need to fit into one of the boxes in the standard sequence.  They are rising sixth graders, so if it's true that they could start calc after three years of EM, that would ultimately line up just fine.  There is plenty of math to be had at the high school, including a full year each for AB, BC, and calc 3, as well as an option for college classes if necessary.  But where's the trig and precalc, for example, hiding in there someplace?  (They could also start high school in precalc if it's not included in EM, though I'd prefer that if they take alg 2, that they have trig also, for the purpose of not being in-between courses)  I'm guessing that I'm misreading the website.  Have I missed some link?

 

How can this teach proofs if it's all graded by a computer?

 

I found this list http://megsss.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=31&Itemid=98 - can anyone translate the book and chapters in this list to the course list on the EM page?  Is the EM list of courses 1-15 all "book 0" from this MEGSSS document?

 

Forgive me for so much thinking out loud.  I'm just interested in learning more.  Off to search...

 

I'll try to post a bit more about the books shortly. Based on size, I also think they're going to hit a bottleneck around Ch 10...

But basically, yes, the EM courses match up very closely with the textbooks (with the price list Moira mentioned in the other link... although that was a few years ago - and before they were doing the courses, so I'm not sure if they'll still sell the books separately - and without any of the extras, it is a lot of work to write up solutions - and you have to do that to be able to check work from the books.

 

Thanks Dana!  It looks like EM courses 1-7 and 9 (as well as three logic chapters from book 1, which isn't available??) would then be covered in one calendar year, which makes sense as the topics seem prealgebra-ish, though then I wonder how long each course will take.  I also wonder whether books 1, 2 and 3 would be on-line in time - I have doubts.  However, I may introduce our principal to this resource - *sigh* maybe I need to get the books, though I can't seem to find them...

 

 

Book 1 is Logic which is available through eIMACS online.

 

Eta, I just came across a very old Moira post with a list of book prices.  A bit of googling turned up what appears to be Book 0, or maybe just the first chapter of Book 0, though I cannot find the other books

 

That's the first chapter of Book 0 and corresponds to the first EM course. I had my son do the book work, then the online work. The book has more examples than online - and p59-74 in the book (Time, Airplanes, and clock 24 addition) isn't in the online course at all.

The online course does have answers and a neat test (I wish I could have access to those).

 

I was trying to tag those posts at the time... following the imacs tag only brings up one other thread.... http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/134733-imacs-elements-of-mathematics/ 

But... I apparently ran across Ch 2 online and linked it. :)

Those are the only books I ever found online.

 

If I didn't have the books, I'd definitely be having ds take the online courses and working alongside him.

You really do have to go in order and can't skip around.

I don't know if they'll still sell the books now that they have the online courses. If you're looking for the books, I'd contact the people at EM and see if they have any info.

 

When I took the MEGSSS classes, our books were bound paperbacks. What I got when I bought them is comb bound xeroxes. Sometimes a bit difficult to read. My sister still had some of her texts, and she's letting me borrow hers. It's been interesting to see the doodles in the books and where there are correct answers and where there are incorrect answers :)  She also still had one or two tests hanging around with the books. They are really good. Wish I could get them!

[Dana]

From earlier post, yes, the EM courses should match the Chapters of Book 0.

Book 1 and 2 (logic) would be the logic courses from IMACS (and boy, are they pricey... we wouldn't have managed them)

For people who live in FLA, NC, and St Louis, they may be able to do some of the classes at actual locations (FLA & NC via IMACS, St Louis via Project MEGSSS). 

 

If your kids took Ch 1: operational systems, the book is linked above (although it's tough to follow how it's posted). 

The sections in the text but not online are: 

Time, Airplanes, and CLock 24 Addition, and

the Appendix of Operational System Games (p127-150)

 

From the book...much of the text is in the online course.

Here are some of the differences that I noted in my text as we went through the course....

 

p2 - the books aren't listed online

p4 not online (so lose Ex 2-4)

p6 example is online as an exercise

p7 coding diagram is online in an animated form (neat!)

p9: Ex 5 not online; Ex 6 b-d not online; Ex 7 not online

p10 Ex 10 not online

p11 Ex 11 not online

p13 only Ex 13a online

 

gives an idea....

In the problem sets, typically only about half of the questions from the text are online - and they do very few computation problems while I'm insistent that ds do lots of computation practice - mainly because it was a weakness of mine!

 

 

[wapiti]

Thanks for all this info, Dana!  Very helpful.

 

From earlier post, yes, the EM courses should match the Chapters of Book 0.

Book 1 and 2 (logic) would be the logic courses from IMACS (and boy, are they pricey... we wouldn't have managed them)

 

A scope and sequence question, if you or anyone happen to know - this bit about covering math prior to calc - would that necessarily require Books 1 and 2, or are they separate?  That is, are Books 1 and 2 part of "Foundations"?

 

Elements of Mathematics: Foundations is a self-contained, self-study program that allows the talented student to complete all of middle and high school mathematics up to calculus before leaving middle school.

 

 

[kiana]

A scope and sequence question, if you or anyone happen to know - this bit about covering math prior to calc - would that necessarily require Books 1 and 2, or are they separate?  That is, are Books 1 and 2 part of "Foundations"?

 

No, 1 is logic and 2 is set theory. Both good things to know but not an essential for calculus unless you're planning on taking harvard's math 55 or something :D

[Dana]

Thanks for all this info, Dana! Very helpful.

 

 

A scope and sequence question, if you or anyone happen to know - this bit about covering math prior to calc - would that necessarily require Books 1 and 2, or are they separate? That is, are Books 1 and 2 part of "Foundations"?

Books 1 and 2 are separate, but that's where you get to formal proofs.

 

When I took the classes, it was just in 7th and 8th grade. We did probably what's listed on the project MEGSSS pages. We did not do any formal geometry or trig. I'll need to take a look at the books again and see where that is introduced. I felt that Bk 1 and 2 (logic) was very helpful when I took geometry in high school. Unfortunately, at that point we had a different teacher and weren't using the EM books any more.

 

At the local school that still teaches MEGSSS here, they go through much of Book 0, but they still do a separate geometry course, so it seems like they think something is missing in the books for geometry or they just want a more "typical" course for students.

 

The first 7 or so books (chapters of book 0... what is done in EM courses) are all pretty short. Ch 1 is the longest. The others are only about 100 pages. I don't know if they'll include all examples and problems as a result.

 

Ch 10, Algebra in Operatinal Systems, is about 250 pages.

It's chapters are groups, rings, relations, fields, mappings and equations over fields, relational systems, and ordered groups, rings, and fields.

I next saw that in my abstract algebra course in my 3rd year of my undergrad math degree.

I can't see how that course can cost the same as the earlier ones.... I'm curious how they'll handle it.

 

Ch 11 is where the quadratic formula is derived. By that time, I had a very solid understanding of the math before it (and a good foundation in set theory). That's another thick book that I'm not sure how it'll translate.

 

If I didn't have the books, I'd be really pushing my son to take the online courses...but I also would be able to help him pretty easily.

 

As it is, I'm not sure about trig and geometry, but that's because I didn't do those using the EM books.

 

(Wonder if I should see if they want tutors.... ;). )

[Julie of KY]

Can you buy just the books and where?

[kiana]

(Wonder if I should see if they want tutors.... ;). )

 

Man, I'd love to tutor something like that.

 

I really like my (offline) students but it'd be fun to have some real high-flyers as a change.

 

 

[wapiti]

Books 1 and 2 are separate, but that's where you get to formal proofs.

 

When I took the classes, it was just in 7th and 8th grade. We did probably what's listed on the project MEGSSS pages. We did not do any formal geometry or trig. I'll need to take a look at the books again and see where that is introduced. I felt that Bk 1 and 2 (logic) was very helpful when I took geometry in high school. Unfortunately, at that point we had a different teacher and weren't using the EM books any more.

 

At the local school that still teaches MEGSSS here, they go through much of Book 0, but they still do a separate geometry course, so it seems like they think something is missing in the books for geometry or they just want a more "typical" course for students.

 

The first 7 or so books (chapters of book 0... what is done in EM courses) are all pretty short. Ch 1 is the longest. The others are only about 100 pages. I don't know if they'll include all examples and problems as a result.

 

Ch 10, Algebra in Operatinal Systems, is about 250 pages.

It's chapters are groups, rings, relations, fields, mappings and equations over fields, relational systems, and ordered groups, rings, and fields.

I next saw that in my abstract algebra course in my 3rd year of my undergrad math degree.

I can't see how that course can cost the same as the earlier ones.... I'm curious how they'll handle it.

 

Ch 11 is where the quadratic formula is derived. By that time, I had a very solid understanding of the math before it (and a good foundation in set theory). That's another thick book that I'm not sure how it'll translate.

 

This is all super helpful!  Thanks!  I'm beginning to get a better idea of how I might make the most of this resource for one of my boys.

[happyhome]

I used most of what is on the EM site now and the IMACS logic course in 7th and 8th grade with an amazing teacher, Ms. Turk. Every time I teach the quadratic formula, I see her in my mind chanting it with us and moving around the room :). She did add in extra worksheets when we were factoring. Looking at the books now, I definitely think more practice on factoring was needed. I had an amazingly solid understanding of lines and graphing.

 

Again, I worked the first EM course with ds last year and followed along with the text as well.

They did have some software glitches on occasion at the time that they did respond to and fix or explain when I emailed them. I do think that They are implementing the courses and you're following along. In most cases, the online explanation, written, is going to be enough.

 

I asked my son his thoughts...he says the online course was neat with the digital representation. The book had more examples and practice (and I do agree that there may be some topics, see factoring, where you may need to supplement with some extra drill). He didn't like that you only got one attempt at a problem before it affected your score (and if they haven't fixed that, you may not want to use the score as a grade...or just use the score at the end test for a grade).

 

The tests are really cool. They take what has been learned so far and extend it. So tests are a question of applying what you learned and not just regurgitating. I did briefly debate paying for the courses just to have access to the tests, but I can't justify the expense when I own the books.

 

What I did in Book 0 (which is most of what is planned on the EM site) served me well in my undergrad math degree. We did basic group and ring theory. I don't know if it was just that I had an excellent instructor or if it was the approach as well that was so good. I don't think we got to the last few books...those would have been for the next years but unfortunately we had a different instructor in high school who wasn't good and we didn't use the texts.

 

I don't see how they will be able to offer the later courses for the same price though. That's one concern I have with the size of the texts around ch 10.

 

I did find the texts worthwhile enough to hunt them down when I started homeschooling and bought them all in case I couldn't later when ds was only in 2nd grade.

I am still torn between AoPS books and EM books. Both are excellent. I think if I were having ds do the work alone online, I'd choose EM because of the pacing of AoPS (I think their online courses go too fast for him).

 

HTH some....

It does, thank you. I'm debating getting the first course and seeing if she likes it. She's already through the first half of Alg 1 with AoPS so it would probably be review. I guess I'm struggling with whether it would add significantly to what she's already done in the AoPS courses she's completed. I'm second guessing things because I hear the pace of AoPS is a killer as you move forward. It hasn't been a problem yet because we do the books only since she's still in Alg 1. She'll do her first class in the fall.

 

I keep waiting for someone to offer a normally paced online course for the upper level AoPS books. The AoPS folks probably won't, but maybe one of you math major moms on here could moonlight a bit and come up with an online class for all the mere mortals who need more than 6 minutes to digest algebra :)

[Matryoshka]

I keep waiting for someone to offer a normally paced online course for the upper level AoPS books. The AoPS folks probably won't, but maybe one of you math major moms on here could moonlight a bit and come up with an online class for all the mere mortals who need more than 6 minutes to digest algebra :)

 

I hear you.  I really, really hate that they don't have a normally paced Alg course!  I mean, my kid's already tackling this tough material at a younger than average age - must she also do it at double speed?  What is the rush???

 

I know that the truly gifted kids may need that pace, and I think that's who they really want to serve.  But what about the kids who are ready, even eager, to tackle it, but are just really bright and like math, not super-duper gifted?  Is it regular boring math or nothing?  Yes, we can do the books alone, but it is tough material, and it is helpful to have other kids to problem-solve with, and mentors to guide you through the tricky bits...

 

[kiana]

I hear you.  I really, really hate that they don't have a normally paced Alg course!  I mean, my kid's already tackling this tough material at a younger than average age - must she also do it at double speed?  What is the rush???

 

I know that the truly gifted kids may need that pace, and I think that's who they really want to serve.  But what about the kids who are ready, even eager, to tackle it, but are just really bright and like math, not super-duper gifted?  Is it regular boring math or nothing?  Yes, we can do the books alone, but it is tough material, and it is helpful to have other kids to problem-solve with, and mentors to guide you through the tricky bits...

 

I wonder if you could convince them to do a commitment study for a half-pace algebra class -- where if they can get at least 'n' people to pre-register, they will hire someone to do it. It'd probably cost more than what they have now, because they'd need the teacher for twice as many weeks, but maybe ...

[happyhome]

One other question Dana.....when they say that a student will be ready for an AP Calc class after completing the courses, what are they including.....Book 0? 0 and 1-3 that Megsss does?

 

ETA: Found this answer elsewhere....sorry.

[Dana]

It does, thank you. I'm debating getting the first course and seeing if she likes it. She's already through the first half of Alg 1 with AoPS so it would probably be review. I guess I'm struggling with whether it would add significantly to what she's already done in the AoPS courses she's completed. I'm second guessing things because I hear the pace of AoPS is a killer as you move forward. It hasn't been a problem yet because we do the books only since she's still in Alg 1. She'll do her first class in the fall.

)

Seriously...it won't be review.

In some of the next chapters, there's review (integers...but it's handled in a more formal mathematical way). But ch 1 (their first course...operational systems) is going to be like almost nothing she's seen before.

It is cool.

[happyhome]

I hear you. I really, really hate that they don't have a normally paced Alg course! I mean, my kid's already tackling this tough material at a younger than average age - must she also do it at double speed? What is the rush???

 

I know that the truly gifted kids may need that pace, and I think that's who they really want to serve. But what about the kids who are ready, even eager, to tackle it, but are just really bright and like math, not super-duper gifted? Is it regular boring math or nothing? Yes, we can do the books alone, but it is tough material, and it is helpful to have other kids to problem-solve with, and mentors to guide you through the tricky bits...

Yes! It's so frustrating. This kid loves AoPS like she has loved no other academic pursuit in her life!! Who knows, maybe she can keep pace and all of my worry will have been for nothing. We'll see in the fall. But if she can't, I'll be wiping a lot of tears and I think that stinks. I'll still find a way to keep her in the books, but the "experience" of AoPS is so much a part of what she loves!

[Dana]

One other question Dana.....when they say that a student will be ready for an AP Calc class after completing the courses, what are they including.....Book 0? 0 and 1-3 that Megsss does?

Based on their site, I'm assuming book 0....just the 15 chapters (courses) online.

Again, I'm not sure how they'll handle the geometry and trig, and the logic was helpful to me with an understanding of formal proofs, but when I moved to a different school, there was nothing I learned in the year and a half before taking AB calc that I didn't already know.

 

When I was in the MEGSSS classes, there were a couple of times where I needed some extra help and had some misunderstandings...solving equations was actually a bit tough for me initially since I didn't clearly understand like terms. My mom helped me with those, so there may be some places where kids need extra support or some extra practice. We also did a lot of extra factoring in class. However, I see that as an issue with most math programs and I often get extra books or worksheets so ds can have more practice with drill. (I don't think understanding is good enough. I want over learning for mastery and automatic recall, although I do want understanding first.)

[happyhome]

Seriously...it won't be review.

In some of the next chapters, there's review (integers...but it's handled in a more formal mathematical way). But ch 1 (their first course...operational systems) is going to be like almost nothing she's seen before.

It is cool.

Huh! I just printed it out (chapter 2 too!). I'm going to give it to her today and see what she thinks. Any chance you have the solutions worked out for that chapter :)?

[Dana]

One other question Dana.....when they say that a student will be ready for an AP Calc class after completing the courses, what are they including.....Book 0? 0 and 1-3 that Megsss does?

 

ETA: Found this answer elsewhere....sorry.

Oh sure, edit while I'm posting.... :D

 

Off to teach boy....will check in later!

[Dana]

Huh! I just printed it out (chapter 2 too!). I'm going to give it to her today and see what she thinks. Any chance you have the solutions worked out for that chapter :)?

It'll take some time to scan, but I'll have some time next week...send me a pm with your email. May still be some errors but think I've got them all.

[happyhome]

I wonder if you could convince them to do a commitment study for a half-pace algebra class -- where if they can get at least 'n' people to pre-register, they will hire someone to do it. It'd probably cost more than what they have now, because they'd need the teacher for twice as many weeks, but maybe ...

Asking that question is on my to do list. Historically, they've said no. But it's always worth a try. I might even link the hundreds of threads here that contain this same lament.

[snowbeltmom]

I hear you.  I really, really hate that they don't have a normally paced Alg course!  I mean, my kid's already tackling this tough material at a younger than average age - must she also do it at double speed?  What is the rush???

 

I know that the truly gifted kids may need that pace, and I think that's who they really want to serve.  But what about the kids who are ready, even eager, to tackle it, but are just really bright and like math, not super-duper gifted?  Is it regular boring math or nothing?  Yes, we can do the books alone, but it is tough material, and it is helpful to have other kids to problem-solve with, and mentors to guide you through the tricky bits...

 

:iagree: 

I wish they would offer a class that goes at 1/2 the speed.  The class could meet every other week, so they wouldn't even have to devote more teaching hours to the class.  I would definitely pay more for a 1/2 speed class.

 

I also think that the vast majority of kids who take AoPS classes are in traditional school and have been exposed to the material before they take the class.  In that case, it is easier to go at a faster pace.

 

[wapiti]

. 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[daijobu]

I hear you.  I really, really hate that they don't have a normally paced Alg course!  I mean, my kid's already tackling this tough material at a younger than average age - must she also do it at double speed?  What is the rush???

 

I know that the truly gifted kids may need that pace, and I think that's who they really want to serve.  But what about the kids who are ready, even eager, to tackle it, but are just really bright and like math, not super-duper gifted?  Is it regular boring math or nothing?  Yes, we can do the books alone, but it is tough material, and it is helpful to have other kids to problem-solve with, and mentors to guide you through the tricky bits...

 

Add to that the fact that a lot of students taking the AoPS online course have already taken the same course at their regular school.  So they are having a second go at it, but at a higher level.  It's tougher to keep the pace if you are learning it for the first time.  

[happyhome]

FWIW, my ds11 is about that far in Intro to Alg also. He's been hating math lately no matter what alg text we use, so my main goal is to get him enjoying it again. He started the first EM course yesterday and seems to like it. I haven't seen much of it yet, but just clicking on a few different pages in the contents, it does look very different.

 

I'm hoping that, at least for the summer, this is just what he needs. I don't think that the sequence will be done in time, in the long run, and I think the school is tentatively planning for ds to do geometry and alg 2/trig in 7th/8th. I sort of have 6th grade to play with - maybe a combination of whatever is available of these courses for the fun and finishing up/reviewing alg 1 using AoPS and some other stuff. I'd like to have him go through alg 1 topics with EM, though I doubt they'll be available in time - maybe he'll just use it afterward, more summer math.

 

If ds11 really put some effort in daily/weekdays (e.g., the amount of time and effort he ought to put into AoPS daily but hasn't been), I expect that he might finish the first course in a short amount of time (maybe a month or less), so overall it's expensive even with the discount. I think it would make more sense to charge less for the short courses and more for the long courses that come later - maybe they will. But, if the first year is around 9 short courses, that's too expensive at 60 per course, IMO.

 

Now how to rope my other ds11 into the EM courses <insert evil laugh>. He has no patience for anything whatsoever. He blew through the traffic quiz without really trying, in about 10 minutes, and then lamented that he didn't get enough correct. I think he'd be really good at it if I can convince him to give it a try. My offer will be that he can choose either AoPS or EM for summer math. Honestly, for my kids, EM is perfect for summer math. I just hope that over the summer, they don't forget the regular stuff they already learned - I might need to add in some review before school starts (the school bases a lot of decisions on the MAP test that they'll have in late August).

I've been using the Zacarro algebra book and Hands on Equations for review. It's been working nicely. You could also try Patty Paper Geometry for a fun summer preview.

 

I agree with you on the price of EM too. But for us, either program will cost about the same simply because we will be using the AoPS classes after algebra 1. Ugh, the price I pay for being a Lit major!!!

[Dana]

I agree with you on the price of EM too. But for us, either program will cost about the same simply because we will be using the AoPS classes after algebra 1. Ugh, the price I pay for being a Lit major!!!

FWIW, in the Intro Algebra AoPS book, every time I pause and comment to my son with a warning or suggestion to watch out for, the book says it shortly after, so you may be okay with just the texts...

[happyhome]

It'll take some time to scan, but I'll have some time next week...send me a pm with your email. May still be some errors but think I've got them all.

 

Thank you Dana.

[happyhome]

FWIW, in the Intro Algebra AoPS book, every time I pause and comment to my son with a warning or suggestion to watch out for, the book says it shortly after, so you may be okay with just the texts...

 

 

I'd like to believe that.  But the thought of those upper level challenge problems keeps me up at night. :crying:   Ironcially, my much less math-phobic daughter tells me not to worry, she's got this.  Maybe I should listen to her.

[Tammi K]

Helpful Hint: If you decide to do the imacs program and, in lesson 2, your child decided to send the spy back to spy school 'because everyone deserves a second chance', even though the program tells you it will be a waste of money, the program will not see your child's altruism  and instead will deduct a point from his score.  So, be forewarned.

 

Note: We've on day two and it is challenging but ds is enjoying it - although he says he thinks his head might explode.

[Alessandra]

Thanks for sharing!

[Matryoshka]

Anyone know how I should pace dd through the program?  She's doing what I'm calling "Lesson 3" because it's the third group of things to come up, but they don't appear to be labeled by lesson.  There does seem to be a total number of pages (87?), but I'm not seeing how it's broken up into "lessons"?  Right now I'm having her do one "group" of pages a day...

[wapiti]

.

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[Matryoshka]

I thought I counted 83. I told ds11 he had to do 4 pages per day. That doesn't seem like too much to ask even in summer. I think if he put his mind to it, he could go twice as fast as that. He has been distracting himself by goofing around in the javascript for the news of kids getting to higher levels (e.g. ds has reached king level2!! Etc LOL). It's early bit so far it is hard tom compare difficulty because it is so idfferent from aops. I would say that it is easier but then every now and then I look at it and think, wait, what??

 

Dd13's only up to Clock Arithmetic and Novice Level 3.  So far it reminds me of some of the Critical Thinking workbooks we've used in the past - don't know what's coming up next, though!

 

We're taking a break from AoPS to have her review Algebra with Khan and do this on the side...

[Dana]

I tend to go by time spent on math. Sometimes you'll move quickly and other times go really slowly.

[Clear Creek]

Anyone know how I should pace dd through the program?  She's doing what I'm calling "Lesson 3" because it's the third group of things to come up, but they don't appear to be labeled by lesson.  There does seem to be a total number of pages (87?), but I'm not seeing how it's broken up into "lessons"?  Right now I'm having her do one "group" of pages a day...

 

I just had my daughter work on it for a set amount of time each day...I don't remember if it was half an hour or forty-five minutes.

[wapiti]

FYI, the course descriptions now have a list of chapters attached to them.

 

Course outlines for all 15 EMF courses are now available online at www.elementsofmathematics.com under the "Courses | Course Descriptions". For courses not yet released, this information is subject to change. Our development team is also working on a way to describe where topics found in a typical math course (e.g., Prealgebra, Algebra I, Geometry, etc.) are dealt with in EMF. While this won't be a direct mapping, per se, it should give parents a sense of EMF's scope. The plan is to publish that information by the end of summer, if not sooner. 

 

Does anyone have any updates?  We fell off the wagon over vacation but I'm hoping to get the boys back on today.

[MamaSprout]

Following with interest. Dd just place into "likely to succeed" and wants to know why I've been keeping this a secret from her? Of course I ordered DM for her just yesterday. Eta- what happens if/ when we finish the available courses? Even after reading this thread, I'm a little unclear what we would be signing on for if we went this route. What class would we need next?

[wapiti]

More samples are now available.  Under Sample Content, there is a tab with actual Lesson samples.

[MamaSprout]

More samples are now available.  Under Sample Content, there is a tab with actual Lesson samples.

 

Dd thinks the samples are fun, fun, fun.

 

Would it be mostly complete as a math program for homeschool?

 

Those of you who have the books they are based on, do you know what traditional class we would need after what is finished? Do we need to do separate geometry?

 

Besides factoring, what else would we need a little extra drill for?

 

Thanks!

 

[Dana]

Dd thinks the samples are fun, fun, fun.

 

Would it be mostly complete as a math program for homeschool?

 

Those of you who have the books they are based on, do you know what traditional class we would need after what is finished? Do we need to do separate geometry?

 

Besides factoring, what else would we need a little extra drill for?

 

Thanks!

 

Extra drill anywhere there's a problem.

I had difficulty with solving linear equations, I did too many steps in my head.

That is where I remember my mother working with me at home.

I also remember having difficulty with seeing that x and x^2 were different terms.

 

Where those problems are may vary from child to child.

 

I don't know if / where traditional geometry comes in, but if they're saying you'd be ready for calculus after finishing the sequence, that's probably accurate.

I'm curious to see when they add in how it matches to traditional courses.

[MamaSprout]

Based on their site, I'm assuming book 0....just the 15 chapters (courses) online.

Again, I'm not sure how they'll handle the geometry and trig, and the logic was helpful to me with an understanding of formal proofs, but when I moved to a different school, there was nothing I learned in the year and a half before taking AB calc that I didn't already know.

 

When I was in the MEGSSS classes, there were a couple of times where I needed some extra help and had some misunderstandings...solving equations was actually a bit tough for me initially since I didn't clearly understand like terms. My mom helped me with those, so there may be some places where kids need extra support or some extra practice. We also did a lot of extra factoring in class. However, I see that as an issue with most math programs and I often get extra books or worksheets so ds can have more practice with drill. (I don't think understanding is good enough. I want over learning for mastery and automatic recall, although I do want understanding first.)

 

Would Singapore DM be overkill with EM? (Trying not to think about cost here la la la la). Dd originally chose DM for PreA and I ordered the textbook last week. It arrived today, and I like it.

[Dana]

Would Singapore DM be overkill with EM? (Trying not to think about cost here la la la la). Dd originally chose DM for PreA and I ordered the textbook last week. It arrived today, and I like it.

Probably, but I tend to go for overkill in math :)

I haven't looked at DM. I expect having the material for extra practice could be great. Pick one program as spine and one as supplemental. I'm kind of doing that with AoPS as spine and the EM books as supplemental. We've done ch 1 and 2 with 1 online and with the text.

[Targhee]

This may be tangential and perhaps I should take it to another thread, but how do you document/transcript an integrated class like this for graduation AND/OR college entrance requirements?  Especially since it can be completed so quickly (and before high school officially begins).

[MamaSprout]

This may be tangential and perhaps I should take it to another thread, but how do you document/transcript an integrated class like this for graduation AND/OR college entrance requirements?  Especially since it can be completed so quickly (and before high school officially begins).

 

I think it varies from school to school, but in most cases, if you begin high school in PreCalc or Calc, the prerequisites will be assumed.

 

 

Probably, but I tend to go for overkill in math :)

I haven't looked at DM. I expect having the material for extra practice could be great. Pick one program as spine and one as supplemental. I'm kind of doing that with AoPS as spine and the EM books as supplemental. We've done ch 1 and 2 with 1 online and with the text.

 

I already have Dolciani PreA and Algebra, as well as Foerster Algebra. I like Dolciani a lot better as a supplement than as a stand alone. I think I'll make dd pick; Dolciani and EM or Singapore DM and Alcumus.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Are the EMF courses fully online or do you need a textbook too? How much time would be spent on these courses in one week I typically? Is it feasible for afterschoolers? My ds just finished up Saxon Algebra 2. Lastly, how engaging and fun are these courses?

[Clear Creek]

This may be tangential and perhaps I should take it to another thread, but how do you document/transcript an integrated class like this for graduation AND/OR college entrance requirements?  Especially since it can be completed so quickly (and before high school officially begins).

 

At the end of each course they also send you a transcript with the student's grade (along with the grading scale) and a very good course description. Even if you can't use the classes for high school credit, you can note these as classes completed before high school.

[Clear Creek]

Are the EMF courses fully online or do you need a textbook too? How much time would be spent on these courses in one week I typically? Is it feasible for afterschoolers? My ds just finished up Saxon Algebra 2. Lastly, how engaging and fun are these courses?

 

The classes are fully online, no textbook needed. My daughter spent 30-45 minutes per day on the first course and easily finished it during the permitted time frame...she was young when she took the first course, so a slightly older student may be able to work quicker. The courses are fun, creative, and *very* engaging.

[stripe]

Eta, I just came across a very old Moira post with a list of book prices.  A bit of googling turned up what appears to be Book 0, or maybe just the first chapter of Book 0, though I cannot find the other books.

 

I have also found book 2.

http://math.buffalostate.edu/~MED600/signednumbrs/EMCSMP.pdf

 

http://math.buffalostate.edu/~MED600/ has links to the "new math" archive site that seemed to have disappeared

 

I did find citations on ERIC to all the books; I had more success when I searched for Robert Exner as author than by title.

http://eric.ed.gov/?q=author%3AExner%2C+robert

But alas, no full text.

 

I am really, really missing Moira. Although I knew she was ill, I missed the news of her death, until a couple weeks ago.

[avilma]

I think a reasonable alternative to "Elements of Mathematics" is "Unified Modern Mathematics". It seems that the same topics are treated in both courses and while Elements seems to have gone through several editions and so presumably it has been improved upon, my personal observation is that the quality of the original Unified edition is pretty high too in terms of math. There are some typos but it is not that bad. The teachers commentary has some errata.. Moreover the Unified books are free online and the teachers commentary have the answers to exercises.

Check them out at ERIC:

http://eric.ed.gov/?q=unified+modern+mathematics&ft=on

 

[kiana]

I think a reasonable alternative to "Elements of Mathematics" is "Unified Modern Mathematics". It seems that the same topics are treated in both courses and while Elements seems to have gone through several editions and so presumably it has been improved upon, my personal observation is that the quality of the original Unified edition is pretty high too in terms of math. There are some typos but it is not that bad. The teachers commentary has some errata.. Moreover the Unified books are free online and the teachers commentary have the answers to exercises.

Check them out at ERIC:

http://eric.ed.gov/?q=unified+modern+mathematics&ft=on

 

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