Help! Force my rude child to do group activities?

[lacell]

But how are they to discern what is evil, foolish or harmful if they are trained for first time obedience? How can they practice to critically examine commands if they are not permitted to challenge orders in the safest possible environment, their own family?

 

My son has called me out on unjust things at times. Also, he is still quite young. As gets older, particularly at abstract reasoning time, there can be more time for discussion.

[lacell]

Most of this, I hate to say, is on you. Your best chance for growing up on the same team is for you to look at why certain choices make you uneasy. Why is controlling his behavior such a strong need? Whose needs are you looking out for - his or yours? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is where I understood you to be implying selfishness on my part. If it is seventh grade behavior for me to object to that, so be it. But perhaps you were simply asking and not presuming the answer.

[lacell]

We're not talking about selfishness here, so I'm not seeing the connection. I think your motives are simply to figure out how to get your child to comply with your instructions, and I haven't said anything to the contrary. Accusing me of being judgmental for something I didn't do is awkward. I don't know how to respond in a way that doesn't sound like we're reverting to seventh grade. 

 

 In my opinion, theological assumptions and beliefs are at most the convenient vocabulary used as a verner for the many practical ideas that are discovered outside biblical texts. For example, the bible talks about disciplining a child with physical force in order to purge evil. Proverbs says, "Blows and wounds scrub away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being." (Proverbs 20:30) The bible says "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far away." (Proverbs 22:15) These aren't random quotes here and there. This is two examples of a greater sentiment found in the Christian bible. You said something upthread about your son learning to "die to self," which is a self-imposed purgation of "evil." But you don't seem to be asking how much you should physically purge evil from your child. Instead, you're asking how to get compliance. Compliance isn't a biblical issue, it's a human one.

 

 I simply don't agree that children are naturally bad or evil, or that this evil can be purged like the bible claims. Instead, I think children are born naturally ignorant but curious, naturally emotionally attached to their caregivers, natural scientists (they observe, hypothesise, experiment, repeat), and natural mimics. In short, they learn. They can learn effective skills that promote cooperation, respect, courteousness, or they can learn effective skills that promote gaining and maintaining control without consideration of the emotional or physical well-beings of others. In either case, I don't think it's a matter of evil, but a matter of learning. If you're asking how you can help your child learn the skills of cooperation (cooperating with you specifically), I see no reason not to discuss this in practical terms. If you're asking how compliance and obedience affects salvation, you'll find a variety of answers, many of which will oppose your beliefs, all of which will undoubtedly find support in the Christian bible. 

 

Actually, I do believe that discipline can change the heart, just not directly and without God's grace. I mentioned earlier how that happened with the prodigal son. I have seen it happen. Yes, I do believe that children, like a adults, are evil post-fall. But I also believe that are made in God's image and reflect that in what you mentioned above (curiosity, attachment, etc.).

 

 

[lacell]

You know, if you are really intent on having this boy do martial arts, tell him you want to go and see the high ranking people's classes. But don't spoil it by any "See? They take instruction and they are bigger than you!" lectures. :p

 

Interesting idea. Thanks. Did you see my update?

 

[lacell]

 

I do want to raise them as thinking beings and I'm not always right.  Sometimes the answer is: 'That's the way that it's easiest for the house to run - there might be other ways of doing it in other families, but there's a limit to the number of areas of flexibility that I can cope with.'  That's fine - it acknowledges my position as household manager, and also the reality that I am a human with limitations.  But there are other times when I say, 'You're right. That's just a habit we've developed.  How do you think it could be managed better?'

 

L

 

I love how you put this! That is my position as well. Even my 5 year old son understands it and waits to talk to me about things. Sometimes he doesn't wait because something I'm saying really is ignorant of his needs at the moment, and he calls me out on it before he starts doing something I should not have asked him to do.  I am fine with that when he does it respectfully (polite tone, after saying "Yes, Mommy")

 

[JuanitaL]

I do think that children understand a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for.  With the teeth brushing example: I explained to my toddlers why we had to brush.  I also made sure that they did it whilst reminding them of why.  So the habit of doing it and the reason for doing it went hand in hand.

 

I have two teenagers in the house.  I am really glad when one of them asks me why they have to do something - it means that they are maturing and will be ready to live independently.  It brings me up short, and often it's irritating.  But I'm very happy replying, 'Listen, I want to talk that over with you, but just for now could you do what I say?'  With the acknowledgement of their objection, they do comply.  

 

I do want to raise them as thinking beings and I'm not always right.  Sometimes the answer is: 'That's the way that it's easiest for the house to run - there might be other ways of doing it in other families, but there's a limit to the number of areas of flexibility that I can cope with.'  That's fine - it acknowledges my position as household manager, and also the reality that I am a human with limitations.  But there are other times when I say, 'You're right. That's just a habit we've developed.  How do you think it could be managed better?'

 

I think that people often get very all-or-nothing on these topics.  There is a middle way.

 

L

 

I love this post so much!

I'm also (usually) happy when my kids ask me how, why, etc. - they're developing higher order thinking skills.

[regentrude]

, it wasn't giving them practice in obedience per se.   .   

 

I guess the fundamental difference between us is that I see no value in "obedience per se" and thus would not see any value in practicing it either.

[albeto.]

This is where I understood you to be implying selfishness on my part. If it is seventh grade behavior for me to object to that, so be it. But perhaps you were simply asking and not presuming the answer.

 

They were just questions. I wasn't trying to bait you, but only share the questions that popped into my head. These are the questions I've learned to ask myself. 

 

Actually, I do believe that discipline can change the heart, just not directly and without God's grace. I mentioned earlier how that happened with the prodigal son. I have seen it happen. Yes, I do believe that children, like a adults, are evil post-fall. But I also believe that are made in God's image and reflect that in what you mentioned above (curiosity, attachment, etc.).

 

The idea that discipline can change one's attitude ("the heart") isn't a biblical idea. It precedes the writings of the bible and has existed in cultures long before they ever heard of the Christian bible. I understand you read the bible that way, but the idea isn't a biblical one. In addition, there are biblical ideas that you are ignoring (such as beating your child physically until he chooses to comply, ultimately stoning him at the city gate if he refuses). That's all I'm saying. 

 

The idea that people are evil is unfounded, unreliable, unpredictable, and frankly, quite outdated with respect to human behavior in a professional setting. Does this inspire your work as a case worker/therapist with children on the autistic spectrum? Are you addressing the evil in their souls in order to help them conform to societal expectations? Is that what you think autism is? Unpurged evil?

 

Earlier you said you felt bullied by people who would act as your child's advocate against any emotional abuse you might wager against him, and yet your words here reflect a concerning attitude. If you can't purge "evil" from your son by simple rewards and punishments, what will you do? How far will you go? If you feel your actions are sanctioned by your god, what would prevent you from causing irreparable harm? Does it make sense to you why some of us would be concerned? 

 

This hypothesis of yours has some terribly dangerous consequences when kids don't naturally fall into line. Yours might, in which case disaster might be diverted. But he might not, and that's what concerns me. It's a predictable path and I'm quite surprised you don't see it. You say you're a therapist, but your comments don't seem to me to reflect much understanding of child development or human behavior. Instead you seem to rely on old fashioned religious ideas of invisible forces of good and evil. There's a reason most behaviorists and medical practitioners don't rely on the bible for understanding and treating physiological ailments (and behavior is rooted in the physiological - it's rooted in the brain) - it's got a terrible track record of offering explanations and making reliable predictions. If you're convinced it's going to work, nothing we say here will make any difference because it goes against your belief that forces of good and evil are affecting your child to make him rude. It seems to me the logical next step would be to stop asking people for advice and pray instead. Then just wait for your god to change things. 

[swellmomma]

albeto you are on fire today lol The point you brought up about the OPs career is a great one.  Like you I am seeing very little knowledge of child development, or perhaps the knowledge is there but is being overruled by this belief that children are inherently evil.  I am a Christian, I believe in disciplining and obedience (though not first time, but for heaven's sake don't argue with me about it), but like you feel this line of belief by the op is a recipe for disaster. And I have to say as a parent that has kids going to therapy and getting help for behaviour I would be running as fast as possible from a therapist if I learned this was their mindset.  My kids aren't evil, he/she is immature, is ignorant, is a million other things, but evil isn't one of them.  I think this is another case of needing to learn to reframe and relabel.  When we affix a negative label to someone or something, even if we don't ever call that person such, our attitudes and actions reflect that label unconsciously, and sadly that person picks up those negative feelings without you ever saying a thing.  You love your son OP, that is not to be denied, BUT even when we love someone deeply as soon as we start affixing those negative labels to them that becomes the underlieing energy in our interactions.  And if you are lucky(or unlucky in this case) to have a perceptive, sensitive child that child will pick up on that energy and it will crush them.  I speak from experience on this, both as that child - parents still tell me they love me but that undercurrent of disapproval, disappointment etc that I am not who they wanted me to be is still there.  As a child it caused me to rebel, as an adult it has caused me to distance myself and by extension my children from them.  I also speak from the experience of the parent of such a child, whom I would lay my life down for in a heart beat but whom stressed me out to no end and I found myself affixing those negative labels to the child in my head which ultimately led to those labels about said child being imprinted in my heart.  I never voiced those labels/thoughts and yet he felt them through my unconscious attitude/voice/behaviours towards him.  Nothing major to be overtly noticeable but enough that he felt it and it hurt him and that is not something I would ever want to do.  It has taken a lot of work on myself to reframe those thoughts in a positive light, and you know a) my stress levels have dropped considerably as a result, and b) he is becoming a much happier person because he is feeling the change of energy from me.

As the one feeling those things I know it always felt like my parents love was conditional on me being who they wanted me to be rather than who I was.  I was never overtly bad, I was quiet, obedient, actually quite mature for my age, but that undercurrent was there because I wasn't outgoing, I was shy, I was a loner not the popular one, I don't like sports at all etc My son felt the same thing from me, he thought my love was conditional on him being good, it never ever was but that is how he felt.  Since I realized what I was doing and worked on changing it, he has come a long way, behaves much better and knows that I love him for him no matter what. 

I have no doubt that you love your son, I would certainly hope it is unconditional, but I worry with a belief system like what you have written in this thread and the negative labels written in your moment of stress if your son truly knows that.  I would hate for you or any other family to go through what we did and have to go about repairing a damaged relationship with your child down the line.  Better to just start out with and maintain a good one.  We all want our kids to be functional adults, able to be friendly, get along and work with others, have a good work ethic etc, But we don't expect our kids to start out that way, nor do we think there is something wrong with their character or that they are inherently evil for not being so.  I do believe there are evil people out there, but that is due to their actions not simply because adam and eve fell from grace.  When it comes to religious upbringing for me it is about teaching my children to live like Jesus and to put their faith and trust in God.  The number 1 way I can do that is to view them how God would view them and treat them as such.  God would not look at your precious son and say he had evil in him, God would not worry if he was social enough, or selfless enough or any other thing you are worrying about.  He would see that child and see innocence.  He would extend grace and mercy for the errors of a child and see his true heart, that he is a little boy that loves his family and wants to do well.  Yes the bible speaks of raising children with discipline but it also tells us:

 Matthew 18:10 - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 6:4 - And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Colossians 3:21 - Fathers, provoke not your children [to anger], lest they be discouraged.

If you are going to use the writings in the bible as your guide in parenting children/discipline then you can not forget the other side of that and be sure you are not provoking them, discouraging them or despising them (putting negative labels on them).  

[Rebel Yell]

This is where we differ in our parenting ideologies. If you want to be a dictator, then benevolence is nicer than fear, but with a clever kid who doesn't naturally want to comply I think you might find yourself falling back on Machiavelli's advice - if you can't get the population to love you, you should at least have them fear you. There's a risk with being a benevolent dictator with a child who is not naturally convenient compliant; he'll learn how to use this manipulate technique he will have learned his whole life and start demanding greater rewards for compliance. The things you hold over him as punishment will lose value and he'll start to value things you can't take away from him (like autonomy, control of emotions, and other intangible things).

 

snipped

 

Oh my gosh....  this nearly brought me to tears....  in nearly every family I know there is at least one child who is "different" (yes, even only children, ask me how I know this :glare: ) so what is often 'punished' as 'disobedience' is really more often the child not being what fits conveniently with the rest of the family. Sad when what is punished in one family is celebrated in another, and the poor child recognizes it, and feels like they'll never fit in, in their own home. :grouphug:  

 

(not directed at OP or anyone else, just my thoughts.)

[Rebel Yell]

I do think that children understand a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for.  With the teeth brushing example: I explained to my toddlers why we had to brush.  I also made sure that they did it whilst reminding them of why.  So the habit of doing it and the reason for doing it went hand in hand.

 

I have two teenagers in the house.  I am really glad when one of them asks me why they have to do something - it means that they are maturing and will be ready to live independently.  It brings me up short, and often it's irritating.  But I'm very happy replying, 'Listen, I want to talk that over with you, but just for now could you do what I say?'  With the acknowledgement of their objection, they do comply.  

 

I do want to raise them as thinking beings and I'm not always right.  Sometimes the answer is: 'That's the way that it's easiest for the house to run - there might be other ways of doing it in other families, but there's a limit to the number of areas of flexibility that I can cope with.'  That's fine - it acknowledges my position as household manager, and also the reality that I am a human with limitations.  But there are other times when I say, 'You're right. That's just a habit we've developed.  How do you think it could be managed better?'

 

I think that people often get very all-or-nothing on these topics.  There is a middle way.

 

L

 

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

[ElizaG]

I guess the fundamental difference between us is that I see no value in "obedience per se" and thus would not see any value in practicing it either.

 

The OP does see a value in it, though (at least in the sense of children's obedience to parents, which is the context of the above).  So do most mothers and fathers in our world, including those who hold to the Abrahamic faiths, and Africans and Asians of whatever belief.  I'm not sure it would be helpful to give her advice that's based on rejecting deeply held religious convictions.  

 

You mentioned the origins of US government earlier.  I'm not American by birth, and I'm learning about all this along with my children, but I agree that the combination of values does seem a bit strange at first glance.  But it's my understanding that the founders, in general, were operating on the assumption that political liberty would only be workable if the adult population had been formed by the influences of family and religion.   In other words, they recognized that the family comes first, and is not modeled on the state.  And that an adult's needs aren't the same as a five year old's.   (Though certainly, in practical terms, many Americans have tried to make some application of "democratic principles" to child-rearing as well.)

 

FWIW, I don't agree with the OP that children are "evil."  This sounds like it's based on a theological view that we don't follow, and it could be more likely to lead to harshness.  But I don't think that's inevitable.   And I think there are ways to support and encourage others in building strong, loving relationships with their children, even within the context of beliefs and worldviews we don't share.  

[LucyStoner]

So we are big on oral hygiene here. One night, it's been a late night out with family and I started to scoot the kids towards bed as soon as we walked in the door. My 4 year old reminded me that we needed to brush our teeth. I said we were going to skip that tonight because we were tired. He said "But then those sugar buggies, also known as bac tear eeah, will eat our teeth!!!" Shamefaced, mama marched into the bathroom and we all brushed and flossed.

 

Teaching the whys keeps us parents honest and it teaches real self care vs. obedience.

[lacell]

The OP does see a value in it, though (at least in the sense of children's obedience to parents, which is the context of the above).  So do most mothers and fathers in our world, including those who hold to the Abrahamic faiths, and Africans and Asians of whatever belief.  I'm not sure it would be helpful to give her advice that's based on rejecting deeply held religious convictions.  

 

You mentioned the origins of US government earlier.  I'm not American by birth, and I'm learning about all this along with my children, but I agree that the combination of values does seem a bit strange at first glance.  But it's my understanding that the founders, in general, were operating on the assumption that political liberty would only be workable if the adult population had been formed by the influences of family and religion.   In other words, they recognized that the family comes first, and is not modeled on the state.  And that an adult's needs aren't the same as a five year old's.   (Though certainly, in practical terms, many Americans have tried to make some application of "democratic principles" to child-rearing as well.)

 

FWIW, I don't agree with the OP that children are "evil."  This sounds like it's based on a theological view that we don't follow, and it could be more likely to lead to harshness.  But I don't think that's inevitable.   And I think there are ways to support and encourage others in building strong, loving relationships with their children, even within the context of beliefs and worldviews we don't share.  

 

Eliza, I'm surprised you don't believe in the doctrine of original sin. It is an established doctrine of the Catholic church, the Orthodox church and most Protestant churches. I am not saying that God holds a child accountable for his/her sin either. That is another issue, the age of accountability debate.

 

 

[lacell]

albeto you are on fire today lol The point you brought up about the OPs career is a great one.  Like you I am seeing very little knowledge of child development, or perhaps the knowledge is there but is being overruled by this belief that children are inherently evil.  I am a Christian, I believe in disciplining and obedience (though not first time, but for heaven's sake don't argue with me about it), but like you feel this line of belief by the op is a recipe for disaster. And I have to say as a parent that has kids going to therapy and getting help for behaviour I would be running as fast as possible from a therapist if I learned this was their mindset.  My kids aren't evil, he/she is immature, is ignorant, is a million other things, but evil isn't one of them.  I think this is another case of needing to learn to reframe and relabel.  When we affix a negative label to someone or something, even if we don't ever call that person such, our attitudes and actions reflect that label unconsciously, and sadly that person picks up those negative feelings without you ever saying a thing.  You love your son OP, that is not to be denied, BUT even when we love someone deeply as soon as we start affixing those negative labels to them that becomes the underlieing energy in our interactions.  And if you are lucky(or unlucky in this case) to have a perceptive, sensitive child that child will pick up on that energy and it will crush them.  I speak from experience on this, both as that child - parents still tell me they love me but that undercurrent of disapproval, disappointment etc that I am not who they wanted me to be is still there.  As a child it caused me to rebel, as an adult it has caused me to distance myself and by extension my children from them.  I also speak from the experience of the parent of such a child, whom I would lay my life down for in a heart beat but whom stressed me out to no end and I found myself affixing those negative labels to the child in my head which ultimately led to those labels about said child being imprinted in my heart.  I never voiced those labels/thoughts and yet he felt them through my unconscious attitude/voice/behaviours towards him.  Nothing major to be overtly noticeable but enough that he felt it and it hurt him and that is not something I would ever want to do.  It has taken a lot of work on myself to reframe those thoughts in a positive light, and you know a) my stress levels have dropped considerably as a result, and B) he is becoming a much happier person because he is feeling the change of energy from me.

 

As the one feeling those things I know it always felt like my parents love was conditional on me being who they wanted me to be rather than who I was.  I was never overtly bad, I was quiet, obedient, actually quite mature for my age, but that undercurrent was there because I wasn't outgoing, I was shy, I was a loner not the popular one, I don't like sports at all etc My son felt the same thing from me, he thought my love was conditional on him being good, it never ever was but that is how he felt.  Since I realized what I was doing and worked on changing it, he has come a long way, behaves much better and knows that I love him for him no matter what. 

 

I have no doubt that you love your son, I would certainly hope it is unconditional, but I worry with a belief system like what you have written in this thread and the negative labels written in your moment of stress if your son truly knows that.  I would hate for you or any other family to go through what we did and have to go about repairing a damaged relationship with your child down the line.  Better to just start out with and maintain a good one.  We all want our kids to be functional adults, able to be friendly, get along and work with others, have a good work ethic etc, But we don't expect our kids to start out that way, nor do we think there is something wrong with their character or that they are inherently evil for not being so.  I do believe there are evil people out there, but that is due to their actions not simply because adam and eve fell from grace.  When it comes to religious upbringing for me it is about teaching my children to live like Jesus and to put their faith and trust in God.  The number 1 way I can do that is to view them how God would view them and treat them as such.  God would not look at your precious son and say he had evil in him, God would not worry if he was social enough, or selfless enough or any other thing you are worrying about.  He would see that child and see innocence.  He would extend grace and mercy for the errors of a child and see his true heart, that he is a little boy that loves his family and wants to do well.  Yes the bible speaks of raising children with discipline but it also tells us:

 

 Matthew 18:10 - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

 

Ephesians 6:4 - And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

 

Colossians 3:21 - Fathers, provoke not your children [to anger], lest they be discouraged.

 

If you are going to use the writings in the bible as your guide in parenting children/discipline then you can not forget the other side of that and be sure you are not provoking them, discouraging them or despising them (putting negative labels on them).  

 

I am familiar with all these Scriptures and take them all very seriously. Again, it's not either/or but both/and. You greatly misinterpret what I said. A belief in original sin does not not mean I believe that all childrens' behaviors are caused by conscious sin. But I do believe in indwelling sin and a sin nature, and so I also believe there are some sins that are not choices. They can be part of who we are; more like brokenness if you will. So I think a child can be completely unable to control aspects of their behavior due to a disability, and punishment won't change that and would be wrong to inflict. The behavior is not sin in the first sense of the word, but it is brokenness or a result of the fall. Do you see what I mean. We grieve it as that brokenness, but we don't punish it.  However, I do believe that some kids have more control than parents give them credit for. As a therapist, I don't treat all child behavior as sin or sinful, just as I don't in my own home.

 

[lacell]

They were just questions. I wasn't trying to bait you, but only share the questions that popped into my head. These are the questions I've learned to ask myself. 

 

Okay. I apologize, as I misinterpreted and jumped to conclusions.

 

 

The idea that discipline can change one's attitude ("the heart") isn't a biblical idea. It precedes the writings of the bible and has existed in cultures long before they ever heard of the Christian bible. I understand you read the bible that way, but the idea isn't a biblical one. In addition, there are biblical ideas that you are ignoring (such as beating your child physically until he chooses to comply, ultimately stoning him at the city gate if he refuses). That's all I'm saying. 

 

The idea that people are evil is unfounded, unreliable, unpredictable, and frankly, quite outdated with respect to human behavior in a professional setting. Does this inspire your work as a case worker/therapist with children on the autistic spectrum? Are you addressing the evil in their souls in order to help them conform to societal expectations? Is that what you think autism is? Unpurged evil?

 

Earlier you said you felt bullied by people who would act as your child's advocate against any emotional abuse you might wager against him, and yet your words here reflect a concerning attitude. If you can't purge "evil" from your son by simple rewards and punishments, what will you do? How far will you go? If you feel your actions are sanctioned by your god, what would prevent you from causing irreparable harm? Does it make sense to you why some of us would be concerned? 

 

This hypothesis of yours has some terribly dangerous consequences when kids don't naturally fall into line. Yours might, in which case disaster might be diverted. But he might not, and that's what concerns me. It's a predictable path and I'm quite surprised you don't see it. You say you're a therapist, but your comments don't seem to me to reflect much understanding of child development or human behavior. Instead you seem to rely on old fashioned religious ideas of invisible forces of good and evil. There's a reason most behaviorists and medical practitioners don't rely on the bible for understanding and treating physiological ailments (and behavior is rooted in the physiological - it's rooted in the brain) - it's got a terrible track record of offering explanations and making reliable predictions. If you're convinced it's going to work, nothing we say here will make any difference because it goes against your belief that forces of good and evil are affecting your child to make him rude. It seems to me the logical next step would be to stop asking people for advice and pray instead. Then just wait for your god to change things. 

 

I disagree that the Bible does not teach that. I could cite several Scripture but this is turning into a theology debate, which was not my intent. No, I don't believe I can beat the evil out of my child. That is not what I mean. I think I stated clearly that I don'k think that. And I don't believe in abusing children and report abuse when I see it. Yes, I have a masters degree in Family Mental Health/Social Work and am licensed. Yes I am fully educated in all humanistic views. Yes, those facts are integrated into my worldview just like anyone else would integrate them into their own view. When I practice as a social worker, my religious beliefs are not expressed openly. Do they color me? I'm sure they do. I am no different than anyone else in that regard. But they do not keep me from helping families. At some point I plan to do more openly Christian counseling. Again, this is more negative assumptions about me that simply are not true.

[ElizaG]

Eliza, I'm surprised you don't believe in the doctrine of original sin. It is an established doctrine of the Catholic church, the Orthodox church and most Protestant churches. I am not saying that God holds a child accountable for his/her sin either. That is another issue, the age of accountability debate.

 

The Catholic understanding of original sin is that it brings an inclination toward evil, but not that we "are evil."

 

------

405 Although it is proper to each individual,²⁹⁵ original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". 

 

-------

More explanation here.  

 

As for Orthodox Christians, it seems to me that they believe something similar to Catholics (as expressed e.g. here by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware), but I've encountered people on these boards who are adamant that "original sin" isn't a part of their theology.   They seem to be identifying the term with -- as + Kallistos puts it guardedly -- "what normally passes for the Augustinian view."  

[73349]

I've read the OP but not the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating.

 

When a child is young, and he is not going along with something as readily as we'd like--my own dear sweet angel is 6, and we could see this aspect of his personality the first week of his life--it helps me to reframe a little. Rather than following the line of thinking that he's never going to get along in the world if he doesn't start conversing and playing well with others immediately, and rather than wallowing in my embarrassment, I note that he is a beginner at conversation and group activities. With it framed that way, I acknowledge that this is a challenge for him. I offer phrases and strategies that will help. He is a beginner, and a reluctant one at that.

 

OP, you have over 4,000 more days to help this child learn to interact with other people. He's a bit anxious and sensitive right now, but he has plenty of time to bloom. Just as some kids are a little later to read or add, some of them will need a little extra time and help to deal with social situations. I wouldn't make him start TKD now. Plant the idea that when he is ready to learn, the opportunity is there.

[lacell]

Ok. That makes sense. I hold to the reformed doctrine of total depravity, a much misunderstood doctrine and not a popular one in this era.

[brehon]

Eliza, I'm surprised you don't believe in the doctrine of original sin. It is an established doctrine of the Catholic church, the Orthodox church and most Protestant churches. I am not saying that God holds a child accountable for his/her sin either. That is another issue, the age of accountability debate.

 

 

Perhaps. But each theological tradition has its own definition and they aren't the same. My family is RC & we don't believe children are inherently evil. The EO teaching is different from the RC understanding. I don't pretend to know the teachings from a reformed perspective.

[lacell]

http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

 

 

http://viaemmaus.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/what-total-depravity-is-not/

[albeto.]

I disagree that the Bible does not teach that. I could cite several Scripture but this is turning into a theology debate, which was not my intent. No, I don't believe I can beat the evil out of my child. That is not what I mean. I think I stated clearly that I don'k think that. And I don't believe in abusing children and report abuse when I see it. Yes, I have a masters degree in Family Mental Health/Social Work and am licensed. Yes I am fully educated in all humanistic views. Yes, those facts are integrated into my worldview just like anyone else would integrate them into their own view. When I practice as a social worker, my religious beliefs are not expressed openly. Do they color me? I'm sure they do. I am no different than anyone else in that regard. But they do not keep me from helping families. At some point I plan to do more openly Christian counseling. Again, this is more negative assumptions about me that simply are not true.

 

That's because again you've misunderstood what I wrote. If you reread my post, you'll see I said, "But you don't seem to be asking how much you should physically purge evil from your child...." So no, I am not actually assuming you want to beat the evil out of your child. 

 

I don't know what you mean by having been "fully educated in all humanistic views." I had no idea there was such an academic subject.

 

I still maintain your hypothesis is a recipe for disaster. I maintain that compelling an independent, autonomous child to cater to FTO strategies will backfire, and you may likely find yourself the parent of a resentful, detached teenager who is an expert at keeping things from you. I cannot fathom how this process would escape the attention of a therapist.

 

I believe you are really getting your advice from your faith community, not your bible. I would encourage you to find another community from which you can glean more current understanding of human behavior. 

[lacell]

I would also like to say that I consider it nothing less than old fashioned religious bigotry for anyone to state or imply that I cannot be a good therapist due to my religious beliefs. I would not say that of a Muslim or pagan.

[swellmomma]

I am familiar with all these Scriptures and take them all very seriously. Again, it's not either/or but both/and. You greatly misinterpret what I said. A belief in original sin does not not mean I believe that all childrens' behaviors are caused by conscious sin. But I do believe in indwelling sin and a sin nature, and so I also believe there are some sins that are not choices. They can be part of who we are; more like brokenness if you will. So I think a child can be completely unable to control aspects of their behavior due to a disability, and punishment won't change that and would be wrong to inflict. The behavior is not sin in the first sense of the word, but it is brokenness or a result of the fall. Do you see what I mean. We grieve it as that brokenness, but we don't punish it.  However, I do believe that some kids have more control than parents give them credit for. As a therapist, I don't treat all child behavior as sin or sinful, just as I don't in my own home.

 

As a therapist NO child behaviour should be treated as sin or sinful.  It is one thing to do so in your home but as a therapist that should not enter the equation at all.

 

See and I don't agree that children's behaviours are the result of the fall at all.  I believe that often what people count as misbehaviour is truly either:

 

a)mistaken behaviour as a result of childishness/ignorance such as a child responding in a rude manner towards someone asking them a question, 

 

b )misunderstanding/miscommunication where the child is not able to formulate the thoughts he/she wants to and therefore acts out (such as a child tantrumming or hitting out of frustration because they were hungry or tired and we failed to recognize that and then they were pushed to a point they couldn't handle and snapped), or

 

c) behaviours we have actually cultivated in our kids through our own misguided notions, such as lieing to avoid consequence, or back talking because the habit is there of the back and forth nattering etc

 

Of course those things need to be addressed and proper behaviour and coping strategies taught. But with the above 3 I feel the parent is actually more at "fault" than the child and while we need to ensure our children behave appropriately for the social context of being part of this world and being part of society is a part of having life long happiness, none of these things are done willfully imo to warrant more than reminding and modelling etc. And if they are behaviours we have inadvertently cultivated we need to shoulder the responsibility for those things, apologize to our child for doing so and change it in our selves.  So for example, not ask a child if they did xyz, because that invites them to lie, simple state you know they did xyz and correct it.  In the case of a child that backtalks/argues all the time, during a quiet time when they are not arguing, state that you have made an error allowing (and if you you feel you are not allowing something, by arguing back you are doing just that) the back talk, that from now on the arguments will not be heard, they will do as requests and complaints can be logged in x manner.  X may be discussing it calmly after said thing is completed, it may be by responding yes they will do what is asked but can they have a moment to finish xyz, X might be a notebook they can write their complaint in (which can be a form of journalling) but whatever X is you will not engage.  (now I am using this as a generalized sample not saying you are arguing with child)

 

I feel that over all a very small percentage of misbehaviours are actually "bad" in the sense that they are way out there, behaviours such as bullying/hurting others, damaging property, stealing etc.  All big misbehaviours imo stem from a deeper issue.  NOT from a sinful nature but from chaos within the child that has failed to be addressed, whether from a disorder/disability, a dysfunction in relationship, negative environment etc.  All of these thing require more than just punishment and a closer look at the heart of the matter.  Is the child hurting others because they are lashing out due to being a victim themselves, or because they are sadistic or because they have undiagnosed depression that manifests as anger, or because they see this behaviour modelled by their parents as a viable way to handle anger/frustration etc.  

 

No where in any of that is any connection to a sinful nature.  Add in behaviours that simply need a safe outlet because they are 100% age appropriate (we bounce on the trampoline not the sofa, we run in the yard not the kitchen, spiderman climbs walls, we climb ladders or whatever).  And behaviours that are simply personality characteristics (someone who is shy is not misbehaving, they are simply shy etc)

 

I am not what you would call a peaceful momma, I do discipline and have used corporal punishment as I felt warranted, but I feel there is very little kids do that warrant punishment, they do a lot that needs guidance, they need to learn the skills and traits that will help them be functional, happy adults, but they are not acting out due to a sinful nature

 

[albeto.]

I would also like to say that I consider it nothing less than old fashioned religious bigotry for anyone to state or imply that I cannot be a good therapist due to my religious beliefs. I would not say that of a Muslim or pagan.

 

No one said that.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I would also like to say that I consider it nothing less than old fashioned religious bigotry for anyone to state or imply that I cannot be a good therapist due to my religious beliefs. I would not say that of a Muslim or pagan.

If that were what was happening that would be true, but as albeto pointed out FTO is merely behaviorism with a veneer of spirituality attached, and not much more than a social construct from outside biblical doctrines or historic teachings of religious groups.

 

How do you define religious belief? If you call FTO a tenet of Christianity, it is not.

[lacell]

As a therapist NO child behaviour should be treated as sin or sinful.  It is one thing to do so in your home but as a therapist that should not enter the equation at all.

 

See and I don't agree that children's behaviours are the result of the fall at all.  I believe that often what people count as misbehaviour is truly either:

 

a)mistaken behaviour as a result of childishness/ignorance such as a child responding in a rude manner towards someone asking them a question, 

 

b )misunderstanding/miscommunication where the child is not able to formulate the thoughts he/she wants to and therefore acts out (such as a child tantrumming or hitting out of frustration because they were hungry or tired and we failed to recognize that and then they were pushed to a point they couldn't handle and snapped), or

 

c) behaviours we have actually cultivated in our kids through our own misguided notions, such as lieing to avoid consequence, or back talking because the habit is there of the back and forth nattering etc

 

Of course those things need to be addressed and proper behaviour and coping strategies taught. But with the above 3 I feel the parent is actually more at "fault" than the child and while we need to ensure our children behave appropriately for the social context of being part of this world and being part of society is a part of having life long happiness, none of these things are done willfully imo to warrant more than reminding and modelling etc. And if they are behaviours we have inadvertently cultivated we need to shoulder the responsibility for those things, apologize to our child for doing so and change it in our selves.  So for example, not ask a child if they did xyz, because that invites them to lie, simple state you know they did xyz and correct it.  In the case of a child that backtalks/argues all the time, during a quiet time when they are not arguing, state that you have made an error allowing (and if you you feel you are not allowing something, by arguing back you are doing just that) the back talk, that from now on the arguments will not be heard, they will do as requests and complaints can be logged in x manner.  X may be discussing it calmly after said thing is completed, it may be by responding yes they will do what is asked but can they have a moment to finish xyz, X might be a notebook they can write their complaint in (which can be a form of journalling) but whatever X is you will not engage.  (now I am using this as a generalized sample not saying you are arguing with child)

 

I feel that over all a very small percentage of misbehaviours are actually "bad" in the sense that they are way out there, behaviours such as bullying/hurting others, damaging property, stealing etc.  All big misbehaviours imo stem from a deeper issue.  NOT from a sinful nature but from chaos within the child that has failed to be addressed, whether from a disorder/disability, a dysfunction in relationship, negative environment etc.  All of these thing require more than just punishment and a closer look at the heart of the matter.  Is the child hurting others because they are lashing out due to being a victim themselves, or because they are sadistic or because they have undiagnosed depression that manifests as anger, or because they see this behaviour modelled by their parents as a viable way to handle anger/frustration etc.  

 

No where in any of that is any connection to a sinful nature.  Add in behaviours that simply need a safe outlet because they are 100% age appropriate (we bounce on the trampoline not the sofa, we run in the yard not the kitchen, spiderman climbs walls, we climb ladders or whatever).  And behaviours that are simply personality characteristics (someone who is shy is not misbehaving, they are simply shy etc)

 

I am not what you would call a peaceful momma, I do discipline and have used corporal punishment as I felt warranted, but I feel there is very little kids do that warrant punishment, they do a lot that needs guidance, they need to learn the skills and traits that will help them be functional, happy adults, but they are not acting out due to a sinful nature

 

 

I don't have time to respond to all you said, but I can say I agree with much of it. But I think you are deceived if you think you child is not capable of evil in his/her heart; perhaps that is not what you are saying. Honestly I don't have time to read very carefully right now, and I'm sorry if I misunderstand you.  I DO NOT bring up morality/sin in my practice in a secular setting. As a Chrisitian counselor I would.

 

 

[lacell]

No one said that.

 

It seems to me that you and swell momma both did.

[swellmomma]

I don't have time to respond to all you said, but I can say I agree with much of it. But I think you are deceived if you think you child is not capable of evil in his/her heart; perhaps that is not what you are saying. Honestly I don't have time to read very carefully right now, and I'm sorry if I misunderstand you.  I DO NOT bring up morality/sin in my practice in a secular setting. As a Chrisitian counselor I would.

 

 

Every person on this planet is capable of evil, but that doesn't mean we assume they have it there lurking waiting to pounce out the very minute we extend grace.  The fact is I know my kids, I know what they are capable of, I have seen them at their worst and I still have no doubt that while they are capable of evil just like any other person they will not commit evil nor is it a condition of their heart.

[lacell]

If that were what was happening that would be true, but as albeto pointed out FTO is merely behaviorism with a veneer of spirituality attached, and not much more than a social construct from outside biblical doctrines or historic teachings of religious groups.

 

How do you define religious belief? If you call FTO a tenet of Christianity, it is not.

 

I agree. It is not a tenet of Christianity. Also, I have been moving more and more away from it after much prayer and study. But there are aspects of it I still practice.

[swellmomma]

It seems to me that you and swell momma both did.

actually what I said is that I would not take my child to a therapist that believed his behaviour was due to original sin/evil.  I prefer the therapist that focuses on treating his mental illness and leaves his religious upbringing to me.  I have not said your religious beliefs makes you a bad therapist, but your religious beliefs have no place in the therapy setting with clients.  IF it is not there, then great.  But I do get the impression that you don't believe in what is known about child development and that can be dangerous for desperate families trying to help their kids.

[lacell]

I have received SO much good advice. I have a lot of soul searching, prayer and studying to do. At this point, it seems that the thread is taking a lot of time away from me actually practicing it lol! So forgive me if I don't respond as frequently. I appreciate everyone taking time out of their busy schedules to give me honest feedback, and I will keep an open mind about all the advice I have received. I have already been going back through the posts, re-reading and gleaning some important info. Last night I studied FTO some more. I had concerns about it months ago and looked hard online for decent rebuttals of it and couldn't find any I thought lined up with Scripture, although I searched for hours. But last night, largely due to contributors to this thread, I tried again, and this time found a lot of reasons to re-examine FTO. Parenting is journey indeed...

[lacell]

Every person on this planet is capable of evil, but that doesn't mean we assume they have it there lurking waiting to pounce out the very minute we extend grace.  The fact is I know my kids, I know what they are capable of, I have seen them at their worst and I still have no doubt that while they are capable of evil just like any other person they will not commit evil nor is it a condition of their heart.

 

I just don't think this lines up with the Bible and the many admonitions to be on our guard. Paranoid, no. On guard, yes.

[lacell]

actually what I said is that I would not take my child to a therapist that believed his behaviour was due to original sin/evil.  I prefer the therapist that focuses on treating his mental illness and leaves his religious upbringing to me.  I have not said your religious beliefs makes you a bad therapist, but your religious beliefs have no place in the therapy setting with clients.  IF it is not there, then great.  But I do get the impression that you don't believe in what is known about child development and that can be dangerous for desperate families trying to help their kids.

 

Yes, I know what you said. It's pretty much the same to me. I didn't word it exactly right. I have already said that I don't bring it into secular practice. That is part of my discipline's ethical code that I agreed to uphold. There is no widely held child development theory  (Piaget, Erikson, Bowlby, etc.) that I do not believe. But I don't take social science as gospel either; it's not a hard science. I examine it all critically.

[lacell]

That's because again you've misunderstood what I wrote. If you reread my post, you'll see I said, "But you don't seem to be asking how much you should physically purge evil from your child...." So no, I am not actually assuming you want to beat the evil out of your child. 

 

I don't know what you mean by having been "fully educated in all humanistic views." I had no idea there was such an academic subject.

 

I still maintain your hypothesis is a recipe for disaster. I maintain that compelling an independent, autonomous child to cater to FTO strategies will backfire, and you may likely find yourself the parent of a resentful, detached teenager who is an expert at keeping things from you. I cannot fathom how this process would escape the attention of a therapist.

 

I believe you are really getting your advice from your faith community, not your bible. I would encourage you to find another community from which you can glean more current understanding of human behavior. 

 

I have taken your advice about FTO seriously and did some examining last night. You know nothing about the church I attend or my faith community. I am more conservative than many in my church community. I am also less conservative that many at other churches.

 

[lacell]

 

The idea that people are evil is unfounded, unreliable, unpredictable, and frankly, quite outdated with respect to human behavior in a professional setting. Does this inspire your work as a case worker/therapist with children on the autistic spectrum? Are you addressing the evil in their souls in order to help them conform to societal expectations? Is that what you think autism is? Unpurged evil?

 

This is what I meant by assumptions about my ability to be a good therapist. Of course I don't believe autism is unpurged evil. But I do believe kids with autism aren't any less sinful than anyone else.

[lacell]

Wow! It's really hard not to keep coming back the computer lol! I have done all I can to defend myself. If anyone wants to believe this or that about me, it is your perogative. The purpose of the thread has been met, and I am grateful. If you don't mind, Albeto, I may message you and a few others in the future as our family continues on this journey. I am not stuck on doing things a certain way because I always have. If I come to be convinced of a better/truer way to do things, I go with it. As an aside, that is why I converted to Christianity as an adult;  I changed my mind, or rather God did :)  I have learned a lot from this thread and am grateful for all the responses.

[albeto.]

Wow! It's really hard not to keep coming back the computer lol! I have done all I can to defend myself. If anyone wants to believe this or that about me, it is your perogative. The purpose of the thread has been met, and I am grateful. If you don't mind, Albeto, I may message you and a few others in the future as our family continues on this journey. I am not stuck on doing things a certain way because I always have. If I come to be convinced of a better/truer way to do things, I go with it. As an aside, that is why I converted to Christianity as an adult;  I changed my mind, or rather God did :)  I have learned a lot from this thread and am grateful for all the responses.

 

I hope things go well for you and your family. If you ever have extra time on your hands, I'd be interested in hearing where you draw the line between "sin" and autistic behaviors, or "sin" and generally unwanted behaviors. I understand that life comes first, though. If anyone else has an opinion, I'm all ears.

[texasmama]

OP, I think you have examined the replies and responded graciously, and I commend you for that.  This thread never devolved in the way I expected it to and in the way we have all seen countless times.

 

I began my own parenting journey following the Ezzo's philosophies and am now an attachment parenting/grace-based type of parent.  I am so glad I was open to looking at a different way to parent, as are my kids.:)

[mamakelly]

If it makes you feel better, when he was 6 years old, my oldest son (who is now 17) went to a trial Karate class with friends. They were on the mats and sort of hanging out waiting for the instructor. The instructor came in the room and sternly yelled some sort of greeting, and everyone ran and got into lines. My poor kid freaked out because the yelling scared him, and he ran out of the room crying. All the while, the instructor was trying to tell him (and me) that DS was supposed to bow before he left the mats. At the time I was mortified! Now I think it's hilarious. Back then, 6 seemed so old to me. Now that I have 4 kids, and that little guy is much older, I see how sensitive he was, and that karate wasn't a good fit for him. He always was and still is slow to warm up to new situations. GIve your little guys some grace and time. He will come around.

[kiwik]

The child is five.

 

FIVE.

Wish I could like from my phone. Five year olds can't even explain why they feel the way they do.

 

I do like the sound of the instructor though - try again in a year or two. I took ds7 to a martial arts class when he was 6 (he dropped ballet when he aged out of preschool classes and it was a toss up between karate and gym). He didn't get off my knee as one of the other kids looked huge to him. I will ask him again when he is more confident. Your child may have problems but being 5 is not a problem.

[rimk3]

I didn't read all the responses, but I wanted to recommend a book that has helped me a great deal with all three of my children (even myself) in dealing with situations like you posted and the reasons why.  From what you have described, maybe he is highly sensitive?  Maybe you are as well?  I am and all three of my children are, they also have some sort of sensory issue.  I am not big on "labels" but nothing has rang more true for me than this book.

The Highly Sensitive Child: Helping Our Children Thrive When the World Overwhelms Them

My eight year old son is very much your like your son and I will encourage you by saying that he has come a long way since five in understanding what he is feeling and how to cope with those feelings and communicate those feelings.  

 

Oh, and I will also recommend Grace Based Parenting.  

[swellmomma]

OP thanks for sticking in there so long, this thread has been great for generalized conversation on this topic too not just for your situation. 

[LibraryLover]

This is a thread about a very young child not wanting to do TKD?  One of mine did not want to play soccer at age 6, even though she burned up that field and the coach begged her to stay. She didn't want to do it. She didn't. She is now a perfectly lovely young woman, and she was a perfectly dear child.  Some children are not ready for group activities when they are 5.

 

People worry far too much about nothing. I know it seems hard not to worry, but it can be very damaging to heap so much of our adult baggage onto little children.

[bullseye]

Have you read much about dealing with introverted kids, especially if you aren't an introvert yourself?  You noted he "isn't shy, which is weird" - many introverts aren't; they just take more time to warm up to new situations.  A few things that stuck out to me as I scanned your posts - he says he likes roughhousing, but only with Daddy?  Maybe that's because he's comfortable around Daddy, not because he's afraid of getting hurt.  He stops dancing when he sees you watching?  Introverts often aren't comfortable showing off their skills until they feel a certain degree of mastery.  (This will also be important to realize if you intend to continue homeschooling - it can be much harder to figure out the appropriate challenge level for an introverted kid, since he may not want to admit he can read, for example, until he's reading fluently).  You said he did better the second time he observed the class, right?  Let him keep watching long enough and he may surprise you by joining in. My son was like that at first with gymnastics.  Now it's his favorite thing.  

 

I won't jump into the theological arguments, but I do want to say I admire you for sticking with this thread.  I think it's obvious that you love your son by the way you've made yourself vulnerable for his sake and have been so receptive to new ideas.  Good luck navigating all this.  I'm sure he'll be just fine.  

[lacell]

Have you read much about dealing with introverted kids, especially if you aren't an introvert yourself?  You noted he "isn't shy, which is weird" - many introverts aren't; they just take more time to warm up to new situations.  A few things that stuck out to me as I scanned your posts - he says he likes roughhousing, but only with Daddy?  Maybe that's because he's comfortable around Daddy, not because he's afraid of getting hurt.  He stops dancing when he sees you watching?  Introverts often aren't comfortable showing off their skills until they feel a certain degree of mastery.  (This will also be important to realize if you intend to continue homeschooling - it can be much harder to figure out the appropriate challenge level for an introverted kid, since he may not want to admit he can read, for example, until he's reading fluently).  You said he did better the second time he observed the class, right?  Let him keep watching long enough and he may surprise you by joining in. My son was like that at first with gymnastics.  Now it's his favorite thing.  

 

I won't jump into the theological arguments, but I do want to say I admire you for sticking with this thread.  I think it's obvious that you love your son by the way you've made yourself vulnerable for his sake and have been so receptive to new ideas.  Good luck navigating all this.  I'm sure he'll be just fine.  

 

Thanks. I also am an introvert but not as self-conscious as he, although I intensely dislike competition. I think if he kept going, he would participate, but the instructor recommends we try again later to avoid disrupting others and to keep it positive. How do you instruct a child who needs to feel like he has mastery before he demonstrates? It just seems like part of the process that he would have to show what he's learning prior to really being good at it? Maybe if I could have an example of how to work with him in a way that is not too intimidating but also encourages him.

 

 

[lacell]

Update: Grandpa took him to a baseball game and casually talked about the TaeKwonDo. He said my son told him "I don't like people to watch me. It's just not part of my nature" lol! He sure is self-aware! What I don't get is that he is always asking me to watch him do things. But I guess it's like bullseye said - those are probably things he thinks he has mastered. When I say he is not shy, I mean that whenever we go to a new place, like visiting a new church for example, he boldly runs right into the classroom and practically takes over! He has always been that way. However, he often isn't doing the planned activity but finds something that interests him. Sometimes the planned activity is something he wants to do, and then he joins in. Or if he is pressed by the teacher who indicates that the activity is the only choice, he will do that. Maybe his lack of visible anxiety in that setting is because he doesn't think anyone will be watching his play so that is different for him than lessons?

[Χά�ων]

Thanks. I also am an introvert but not as self-conscious as he, although I intensely dislike competition. I think if he kept going, he would participate, but the instructor recommends we try again later to avoid disrupting others and to keep it positive. How do you instruct a child who needs to feel like he has mastery before he demonstrates? It just seems like part of the process that he would have to show what he's learning prior to really being good at it? Maybe if I could have an example of how to work with him in a way that is not too intimidating but also encourages him.

My DS is like that. I explain that he goes to X to LEARN something. I never say he is going to DO X or even TRY X. Do means he already knows how and try means he knows some and is going to attempt what little he already knows.

 

If I was in a spot where I wanted him to experience something knew I would word it in such a way as "X looks like something fun. I signed you up for one class so you might see what learning X is all about. If you like learning X and want to learn more about X than let me know."

 

To be honest by 5 I would be having conversations with my child to get a feel for his interests than looking for short classes no more than 6 weeks long for him to get a feel for it. If he has no interest in participating that is within normal.

 

My son skates and asked about skating when he was really little. He was not ready to put on skates and join a class even at 5. But he was perfectly happy watching the other kids skate so that was his activity. Watching kids skate. He did not get serious about learning to skate until he was 6, almost 7.

[Berta]

I have considered that possibility. There are things about him that make me question any autism diagnosis, but I will keep that in mind. Sensory processing perhaps. I have thought about getting him evaluated but am concerned about labels.

 

 

My son has high functioning autism. He was seven before we had a diagnosis because I didn't want the "label" even though I knew something was off with him. Well, that label opened up several doors for him. He qualified for speech, OT, PT, behavioral therapy etc all at no cost because of that label. He went to a private school for kids with autism. In our case, homeschooling would not have been a good fit with him. Public school was a nightmare from day one, but the private school was awesome and he thrived. He is now 22, a published poet and in his third year at college working towards his bachelors degree in animation art.

 

Labels can be a good thing sometimes :)

[lacell]

 

Sometimes you have to take the long view and just chip away at the issue. I was lucky ds was my third, and I knew from experience that going slow is fine.

 

I like how you put this.