Ask a person "in recovery" from alcoholism (or other substance abuse)

[Joanne]

I will celebrate 23 years later this month. I chose to get clean/sober in AA, but I don't believe that is the only model or way.

 

I can't guarantee my answers will be strictly from the experiential standpoint because I eventually became a professional in the business.

 

I am still active in my recovery community.

[Crimson Wife]

What are your suggestions for keeping kids from becoming addicted in the first place?

[Home'scool]

Is it considered proper to socialize outside the meetings with AA members?

 

I ask this because my mother is an alcoholic. She never really gets clean, just replaces alcohol with prescription drugs. Her newest foray into AA had her meet a bunch of ladies that then "split off" from the AA meetings. They now meet on their own, go to the movies, have a book club, etc. They no longer meet with the official group.

 

My concern is that they now know each other on such a social level that if my mother ever did drink again she would be too embarrassed to tell these women. Gone is the anonymous part of it.

 

She always plays the system and I feel like she is just doing this again.

[Joanne]

What are your suggestions for keeping kids from becoming addicted in the first place?

 

A whole "clinical" field of research and support is being developed to answer that.

 

My short answer, from a professional standpoint, is that it is a *disease* that exists and is triggered by drug/alcohol use FIRST and not by environment.

 

Another important consideration is that the development of the disease - the progression - is often quicker in teens because of brain development. What would take an adult 10-15 years can take a using teen 3-5.

 

Some correlating issues with substance abuse/addiction/alcoholism are:

 

Impulse control issues

Poor grades

Living in poverty

Being on a attention med

Trauma in childhood (major weather disaster, abuse, ....)

Involvement with school officials

Involvement with juvenile criminal justice

Family history of substance abuse

Family history of other mental illness

[Joanne]

Is it considered proper to socialize outside the meetings with AA members?

 

I ask this because my mother is an alcoholic. She never really gets clean, just replaces alcohol with prescription drugs. Her newest foray into AA had her meet a bunch of ladies that then "split off" from the AA meetings. They now meet on their own, go to the movies, have a book club, etc. They no longer meet with the official group.

 

My concern is that they now know each other on such a social level that if my mother ever did drink again she would be too embarrassed to tell these women. Gone is the anonymous part of it.

 

She always plays the system and I feel like she is just doing this again.

 

It is common for AA members to socialize. To have an entire group split off and not also meet in official meetings, IMO, is dangerous.

 

I suspect the ladies welcome your mom in the hope that she "gets it" at some point; they may want to be an example. It takes a LOT for AA people to exclude someone - it is against the traditions.

 

In terms of your mom, her response should she drink is part of a defense mechanism and will play out as that, regardless of the women, meetings, or not.

 

[Spryte]

Thank you for posting this.  I'm always interested in your responses on this topic, and have learned a lot from your posts. 

 

What is the best way to support a young adult who is struggling with substance abuse, plus a few of the co-relating issues (mental illness, family history, etc)?  As parents of an adult, we aren't in a position to force anything, but is there a way to encourage him to continue seeing his therapist, taking his (appropriate) meds, and stop self-medicating with other substances?

[Joanne]

Thank you for posting this.  I'm always interested in your responses on this topic, and have learned a lot from your posts. 

 

What is the best way to support a young adult who is struggling with substance abuse, plus a few of the co-relating issues (mental illness, family history, etc)?  As parents of an adult, we aren't in a position to force anything, but is there a way to encourage him to continue seeing his therapist, taking his (appropriate) meds, and stop self-medicating with other substances?

 

I hope his therapist is very substance abuse competent; they aren't always.

 

I'd find out all you can about the problem and disease so that you understand from an informed standpoint. I'd be positive about the positives and I'd be quiet/muted  about the less than stellar parts. Antagonism and traditional "tough love" does not really work.

 

Encourage him to have real, actual information about mental illness and substance abuse. Reinforce that it is NOT a character issue.

[TracyP]

Say a person abuses drugs (pot, alcohol, meth, and coke) for a 4-5 year period. This person decides to quit using and does quit. Why does this person have an easier time quitting than another? Was this person never an addict? Or do some addicts have an easier time quitting?

 

[Joanne]

Say a person abuses drugs (pot, alcohol, meth, and coke) for a 4-5 year period. This person decides to quit using and does quit. Why does this person have an easier time quitting than another? Was this person never an addict? Or do some addicts have an easier time quitting?

 

Over-use and abuse are distinct from substance dependence. There are developmental seasons of life in which over-use is common (think college students).

 

 

The *disease* of addiction is such that the person with its brain craves more drugs/alcohol once introduced. It would be rare for a casual, recreational user to use the combination you describe for that long. It is possible, however, for a person to quit use and therefore stop the craving physiology. Often, unless the brain is further treated (by transformational action), the person will eventually return to use.

[TracyP]

Over-use and abuse are distinct from substance dependence. There are developmental seasons of life in which over-use is common (think college students).

 

 

The *disease* of addiction is such that the person with its brain craves more drugs/alcohol once introduced. It would be rare for a casual, recreational user to use the combination you describe for that long. It is possible, however, for a person to quit use and therefore stop the craving physiology. Often, unless the brain is further treated (by transformational action), the person will eventually return to use.

 

Could you explain what you mean by "transformational action"?

[Spryte]

I hope his therapist is very substance abuse competent; they aren't always.

 

I'd find out all you can about the problem and disease so that you understand from an informed standpoint. I'd be positive about the positives and I'd be quiet/muted  about the less than stellar parts. Antagonism and traditional "tough love" does not really work.

 

Encourage him to have real, actual information about mental illness and substance abuse. Reinforce that it is NOT a character issue.

 

Thanks.  

 

His therapist is highly regarded for teens (he started with him at 19, but he's 22 now), and substance abuse.  Getting him to actually go to therapy is another story.  He is sporadic at best.  He goes when other family members bribe him, but DH and I have tried not to participate in bribery - we just listen, encourage, support.  Not always sure that's the right route.  There doesn't seem to be a perfect plan of action here, for the parents watching this play out.  Is there another route, or is that the way you'd go?

 

The bolded above... That part sank in about 3 years ago.  It has been some of the hardest work I've personally ever done, to stay quiet at times.  

 

Thanks for starting this thread, and for sharing your perspective. 

[Joanne]

Could you explain what you mean by "transformational action"?

 

Sure. There are things that change the brain. Since the disease is literally IN the brain, treatment needs to include things that change the neurochemical realities in the brain.

Big brain changers are:

 

Routine (structure)

Meditation

Exercise

Sleep

Quality nutrition

The perceived experience of spiritual events

Gratitude intentionality

Ritual

Fellowship, connection

Sex

Recreated/amended relationships

When you look at that list, you can see how a 12 step recovery program is an efficient delivery of many of those.

[Joanne]

Thanks.  

 

His therapist is highly regarded for teens (he started with him at 19, but he's 22 now), and substance abuse.  Getting him to actually go to therapy is another story.  He is sporadic at best.  He goes when other family members bribe him, but DH and I have tried not to participate in bribery - we just listen, encourage, support.  Not always sure that's the right route.  There doesn't seem to be a perfect plan of action here, for the parents watching this play out.  Is there another route, or is that the way you'd go?

 

The bolded above... That part sank in about 3 years ago.  It has been some of the hardest work I've personally ever done, to stay quiet at times.  

 

Thanks for starting this thread, and for sharing your perspective. 

 

Think of it like any other disease in which you give adults the responsibility of its management. There would be no perfect way to make a diabetic do what's best. There is no perfect way to respond to and support a person with heart disease that will = compliant.

Each of these, and also cancer, asthma, and other diseases respond best to medical support, meds if necessary, and the stuff on the list I posted.

[elegantlion]

Do you think the incidence of prescription drug abuse/addiction is rising? 

 

Do you have any opinion on the prescribed use of methadone through methadone clinics as way to combat alcohol addiction and not heroin addiction? I realize that's more a expert than personal question, feel free to ignore if you'd rather. 

[Joanne]

Do you think the incidence of prescription drug abuse/addiction is rising? 

 

Do you have any opinion on the prescribed use of methadone through methadone clinics as way to combat alcohol addiction and not heroin addiction? I realize that's more a expert than personal question, feel free to ignore if you'd rather. 

 

1. Yes, I do. In part because many of the new drugs are far along the continuum of addictive in nature. And it is so easy to get some. I could walk into a Dr's office today, 7 months after my accident, and walk out with refillable scripts for pain.

 

2. Dude. Have you ever known me *not* to have an opinion? :) I think that the use of agonist/partial agonist agents in treating the disease of addiction is progress. That said, it is like the "ADD" and "ADHD" thing. It exists, it is useful and (quality of) life saving, but it is also over diagnosed and over used and used too often without support and structure for the other changes that are needed for holistic recovery. I haven't researched methodone for the treatment of alcoholism specifically but I my first level response is that it should be considered **only** for chronic, documented, long term alcohol dependence.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Joanne, thank you for sharing this information.

[TracyP]

What are your suggestions for keeping kids from becoming addicted in the first place?

 

 

 

My short answer, from a professional standpoint, is that it is a *disease* that exists and is triggered by drug/alcohol use FIRST and not by environment.

 

 

I am the person I was referring to in my first couple posts. The "how to stop my kids from going through this" question is often in the back of my mind. Joanne's distinction here is enlightening. My parents thought I was just being a normal teen when I started drinking on the weekends and experimenting with pot. Therefore, they let it slide thinking I would get it out of my system. Most of my friends went on to do just that. They were "weekend warriors" who got good grades and what not. They used recreationally and it was never a big deal. My experience ended up being very different.

 

I have never thought of framing it the way that Joanne did here. I have to give this more thought, but it makes a lot of sense.

[wendyroo]

On a slightly different addiction topic...

 

During the summers we spend quite a bit of time at my parents' cottage right next door to my uncle's cottage where he hangs out outside smoking one cigarette after another.  That is the only person my kids ever see smoking.  Peter asked about it once last summer and I just said it was yucky and dangerous, but I definitely want to expand that dialogue this summer.

 

What level of detail would you go into with a five year old?  How can I help him reconcile the ideas of my uncle as a cool grown up who knows everything (in Peter's mind, at least), but at the same time partakes in such a dangerous habit that he can't (and honestly doesn't want to) stop.

 

When and how would you incorporate alcohol into the discussion?  My kids do see a lot of social drinking.  DH has a beer with dinner several nights a week.  All of the grandparents, aunts and uncles drink on occasion.  I am the only person in the family that does not drink, and that is simply because I have been pregnant and nursing most of the last 6 years and I never liked alcohol much to start with.

 

At this point Peter and Elliot know that beer and wine are grown up drinks, but not why.  When should they know more than that?

 

Honestly, I think I am extra cautious about this because it feels like Peter has a personality that could be prone to addiction.  He struggles with and is in therapy for anxiety, OCD and autistic tendencies.  I feel I need to start this conversation early, but I am not sure how.

 

Thank you,

Wendy

[Joanne]

On a slightly different addiction topic...

 

During the summers we spend quite a bit of time at my parents' cottage right next door to my uncle's cottage where he hangs out outside smoking one cigarette after another.  That is the only person my kids ever see smoking.  Peter asked about it once last summer and I just said it was yucky and dangerous, but I definitely want to expand that dialogue this summer.

 

What level of detail would you go into with a five year old?  How can I help him reconcile the ideas of my uncle as a cool grown up who knows everything (in Peter's mind, at least), but at the same time partakes in such a dangerous habit that he can't (and honestly doesn't want to) stop.

 

When and how would you incorporate alcohol into the discussion?  My kids do see a lot of social drinking.  DH has a beer with dinner several nights a week.  All of the grandparents, aunts and uncles drink on occasion.  I am the only person in the family that does not drink, and that is simply because I have been pregnant and nursing most of the last 6 years and I never liked alcohol much to start with.

 

At this point Peter and Elliot know that beer and wine are grown up drinks, but not why.  When should they know more than that?

 

Honestly, I think I am extra cautious about this because it feels like Peter has a personality that could be prone to addiction.  He struggles with and is in therapy for anxiety, OCD and autistic tendencies.  I feel I need to start this conversation early, but I am not sure how.

 

Thank you,

Wendy

 

What good questions and you are smart to be extra intentional about your son who is possibly more prone.

 

I would start with the real information shared on a basic level. "There are chemicals in the cigarettes that change your Uncle's brain and make it nearly impossible to stop, and even change his brain to thinking he doesn't want to."

 

And, with recreational use of alcohol "There are chemicals in some drinks that change a peron's brain and body in ways that are fine for adults, but dangerous for children."

[Chris in VA]

Thanks for starting this, Joanne.

 

I want to comment on this part of your post:

 

Some correlating issues with substance abuse/addiction/alcoholism are:

 

Impulse control issues

Poor grades

Living in poverty

Being on a attention med

Trauma in childhood (major weather disaster, abuse, ....)

Involvement with school officials

Involvement with juvenile criminal justice

Family history of substance abuse

Family history of other mental illness

 

 

I just want to say to the Hive--

 

Please be aware that drug addiction doesn't just happen to people who are poor, who's mom works out of the house, who have bad influences in their lives, who are abused, who view bad TV or movies, who are unsupervised...

 

Ds had--

 

A SAHM who was home after school

A present Dad

A Christian home

Some decent friends

A quality school setting

Parents who had a long marriage with no divorce

 

He made good grades. He went to church. We were middle to upper middle class in a good neighborhood.

 

He still became an addict.

 

He did also have:

 

A history of familial alcoholism on both sides

mental illness (depression) on both sides

mild trauma--our move really affected him, and then we had 9/11 and a sniper in our area, and a break in attempt

 

So it can happen to anyone, really.

 

See my related post for our current situation.

 

[Joanne]

Thanks for starting this, Joanne.

 

I want to comment on this part of your post:

 

 

I just want to say to the Hive--

 

Please be aware that drug addiction doesn't just happen to people who are poor, who's mom works out of the house, who have bad influences in their lives, who are abused, who view bad TV or movies, who are unsupervised...

 

Ds had--

 

A SAHM who was home after school

A present Dad

A Christian home

Some decent friends

A quality school setting

Parents who had a long marriage with no divorce

 

He made good grades. He went to church. We were middle to upper middle class in a good neighborhood.

 

He still became an addict.

 

He did also have:

 

A history of familial alcoholism on both sides

mental illness (depression) on both sides

mild trauma--our move really affected him, and then we had 9/11 and a sniper in our area, and a break in attempt

 

So it can happen to anyone, really.

 

See my related post for our current situation.

 

Indeed. I believe the genetic predisposition is the most compelling, IMO.

 

My own son was raised attending church, a lot of community support, active social life, sports. I believe once he put it in his system, he was a young alcoholic and the progression began at an accelerated rate; that is typical of teens.

 

 

 

Once drugs or alcohol are introduced into a body system that creates a NEED for more, the progression to more drugs or alcohol or "worse" drugs begins. Heroin, crack, meth are not typically drugs of recreational use, they are accessed after a pass through common recreational drugs.

 

[Chris in VA]

Once drugs or alcohol are introduced into a body system that creates a NEED for more, the progression to more drugs or alcohol or "worse" drugs begins. Heroin, crack, meth are not typically drugs of recreational use, they are accessed after a pass through common recreational drugs.

 

 

So Joanne, do you consider pot a gateway drug for those who are genetically predisposed to addiction?

 

I don't want to derail your thread, this quoted bit just caught my eye. Perhaps you can quickly address it? If not, no worries.

[TracyP]

If the genetic predisposition is there, what do you teach your kids? I still drink on occasion and feel it is best to model responsible drinking. But I'm not sure if that is the best path given the family history. I also sometimes question whether it is best *for me* because I struggle to drink responsibly. I do it, but I have to set very strict limits for myself.

[Joanne]

If the genetic predisposition is there, what do you teach your kids? I still drink on occasion and feel it is best to model responsible drinking. But I'm not sure if that is the best path given the family history. I also sometimes question whether it is best *for me* because I struggle to drink responsibly. I do it, but I have to set very strict limits for myself.

 

The thing about "modeling responsible drinking" is that people not predisposed to a problem don't have the "be strict" or "set limits" - they don't have a body that craves more alcohol. You might. :)

 

My kids' Dad is also a (recovering) alcoholic and I told my own kids that they were genetically screwed. Seriously, that is what I told them from Jr. High on. I used nicer phrasing when they were younger.

 

I believe in complete abstinence for alcoholics and drug addicts; I do not believe that the disease of addiction functions in a way that allows for moderation - the brain needs MORE.

[In2why]

I am the person I was referring to in my first couple posts. The "how to stop my kids from going through this" question is often in the back of my mind. Joanne's distinction here is enlightening. My parents thought I was just being a normal teen when I started drinking on the weekends and experimenting with pot. Therefore, they let it slide thinking I would get it out of my system. Most of my friends went on to do just that. They were "weekend warriors" who got good grades and what not. They used recreationally and it was never a big deal. My experience ended up being very different.

 

I have never thought of framing it the way that Joanne did here. I have to give this more thought, but it makes a lot of sense.

I am 27 years sober, and I can say that without a doubt I was born an alcoholic and when I had my first drink at age 12 I was already an alcoholic.   There is a genetic component in my family background and I don't think any parental change would have made a difference.  As mentioned above, some of my friends drank occasionally for fun or the thrill.  I drank because it was the only time I felt normal, alive, and comfortable.  The only thing my parents could have helped or changed was how quickly I hit my bottom, not whether I became an alcoholic, or given me something to prevent it.  Such a thing did not exist for me.   

 

Advice for parents, and I had to live this with my eldest as well who continued the family tradition in spite of us being active in recovery, is to be available and know the signs.  Make it so uncomfortable to be active in addiction as possible even knowing, especially knowing that they still will have to find their own path.  Al-anon and Tough love groups are a good place to start, and as Joanne mentioned research has shown that for a teen or preteen that wasn't born an alcoholic, but with tendencies, it can develop into alcoholism in weeks or months versus the years in the mature adult.  The sooner help is given the better and a decent way to know whether it is normal experimental use or addictive use, is that a teen experimenting will stop if there are consequences.  An alcoholic and/or addict can't and won't until they hit bottom.  Again you can't make anyone quit, but you can help raise the bottom so they hit it sooner.  

[In2why]

I will celebrate 23 years later this month. I chose to get clean/sober in AA, but I don't believe that is the only model or way.

 

I can't guarantee my answers will be strictly from the experiential standpoint because I eventually became a professional in the business.

 

I am still active in my recovery community.

:hurray:   Way to go Joanne!  Congrats 

[In2why]

The thing about "modeling responsible drinking" is that people not predisposed to a problem don't have the "be strict" or "set limits" - they don't have a body that craves more alcohol. You might. :)

 

My kids' Dad is also a (recovering) alcoholic and I told my own kids that they were genetically screwed. Seriously, that is what I told them from Jr. High on. I used nicer phrasing when they were younger.

 

I believe in complete abstinence for alcoholics and drug addicts; I do not believe that the disease of addiction functions in a way that allows for moderation - the brain needs MORE.

I agree.

 

Since we are homeschooling parents there is an experiment you can do to explain alcoholism in simple but possibly effective terms.  

 

The cucumber becomes a pickle. 

 

For some people they can drink alcohol and not having a genetic component or having other ways to cope other than drinking, can and do drink socially.  But for some there is a turning point.  A point where the cucumber becomes a pickle.  Even if you remove the pickle from vinegar it is always going to be a pickle and will never again be a cucumber.  You can put it in all the water you can manage, but still a pickle.   It is the same for alcoholism and drinking.  Some people have always been pickles, me, and some start as cucumbers but will not mean to become a pickle, will fight becoming a pickle, but will change the chemistry so it is impossible to be a cucumber again.   For those people they can never go back to drinking socially, it is impossible.  They can stop drinking and accept being a pickle, but once an alcoholic always an alcoholic.    The smaller the pickle, the less vinegar and time needed.  The larger the pickle the more time and vinegar.   Some cucumbers can have occasion to have vinegar and oil, but stay a cucumber forever.  

 

You would have to make the experiment your own and use your values and ideals, but you get the point

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

Some correlating issues with substance abuse/addiction/alcoholism are:

 

 

Being on a attention med

 

 

Most studies point to the opposite. While there is a correlation between ADHD and substance abuse, those teens on ADHD meds are often less likely than teens with ADHD who are not on medication. Other studies show no difference, but certainly not an increased risk.

 

From drugabuse.gov

 

Do Prescription Stimulants Affect a Patient’s Risk of Substance Abuse?

Concerns have been raised that stimulants prescribed to treat a child’s or adolescent’s ADHD could affect an individual’s vulnerability to developing later drug problems—either by increasing the risk or by providing a degree of protection. The studies conducted so far have found no differences in later substance use for children with ADHD who received treatment and those that did not. This suggests treatment with ADHD medication appears not to affect (either negatively or positively) an individual’s risk for developing a substance use disorder.

 

From add.org

 

Facts About Stimulant Medication

Unfortunately, many still hold the inaccurate belief that treating AD/HD with stimulant medication leads to substance abuse later in life, when in fact the opposite appears to be true.

• Untreated AD/HD is a risk factor for developing a substance use disorder later in life. (Biederman et al. 1997, Wilens et al. 1997, Hechtman and Weiss. 1985, Wilens et al. 2003)
• Treating AD/HD with stimulant medication appears to reduces risk of later substance use disorders by half. (Wilens et al. 2003)
• Concurrent treatment for coexisting conditions if they are present (bipolar, anxiety disorders, obsessive thought patterns)

 

Stimulants May Protect Against Drug Abuse in Kids with ADHD  (changed the link because the other one required sign in. This one is more clinical, but free to read)

 

I respect your knowledge and opinions Joanne, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart and I don't like seeing misinformation about ADHD.

 

ETA: Someone might resist putting their child on medication when it could be what the child needs, due to the fear of substance abuse risk.

[Home'scool]

Joanne ~

 

I hope this isn't too personal, but can you explain the thought process an alcoholic goes through to pick up that drink even when he/she knows what harm it will cause?

 

I struggle with resentment towards my mother and her alcoholism. It has been part of my whole life. My childhood was taken away, she has publically embarrassed me, she has lost the trust and respect of her grandchildren, and yet she still abuses (like I said earlier, right now she is back to prescription drugs. It is just a matter of time before she drinks again.)

 

It is just so hard to not see it as a choice. A choice to drink, or even a choice to actively seek treatment and apply yourself to it until you are successful. It looks like she keeps choosing a life that gives her what she needs (her fix) and leaves the rest of us to fry ice.

 

 

[Joanne]

Joanne ~

 

I hope this isn't too personal, but can you explain the thought process an alcoholic goes through to pick up that drink even when he/she knows what harm it will cause?

 

I struggle with resentment towards my mother and her alcoholism. It has been part of my whole life. My childhood was taken away, she has publically embarrassed me, she has lost the trust and respect of her grandchildren, and yet she still abuses (like I said earlier, right now she is back to prescription drugs. It is just a matter of time before she drinks again.)

 

It is just so hard to not see it as a choice. A choice to drink, or even a choice to actively seek treatment and apply yourself to it until you are successful. It looks like she keeps choosing a life that gives her what she needs (her fix) and leaves the rest of us to fry ice.

 

For paragraph 2, I encourage you to seek help and support from a setting that understands issues specific to adult children of alcoholics - even if it is "just" self help stuff. Let me know if you want recommendations.

 

To address paragraphs 1 and 3: The physiological need to drink is like the labored lungs of an asthmatic, the impacted pancreas of a diabetic, or growing cancer cells. The brain of an alcoholic seeks relief.

 

From my site (to save me from typing!): In the body of someone who, for whatever reason, is predisposed to substance abuse, alcohol and drugs excite the BEST, MOST AWESOME part of the brain. The part linked with sex, eating, great times with friends; the most powerful/primitive part. The effects of alcohol/drugs (AOD) on the brain mimic that of our natural feel good chemicals - particularly dopamine. (These chemicals are known as neurotransmitters) In a body that is prone to react this way, the BODY needs more of the feel good. At the same time, though, the brain senses a kind of dopamine satiation and therefore produces less natural feel good, mood elevating and mood stabilizing chemicals. That means when the person is clean/sober, they have less natural dopamine and..... you guessed it, they want to feel good again. So, they use AOD. Where upon they feel better, and the brain registered "enough dopamine" and makes even less......

 

Eventually, the addict's brain is such that they use AOD to not feel like crap. Clean/dry, they do not have sufficient natural feel good to feel normal, so they use to feel not like crap.

[Joanne]

 

 

ETA: Someone might resist putting their child on medication when it could be what the child needs, due to the fear of substance abuse risk.

 

I am in favor of needed meds for treatment of focus issues, depression, addiction, etc.

 

My understanding is that is it one of many *correlating* components but, as you know, correlating does not mean causative.

 

I hear your advocacy and likely agree with you on the overwhelming majority of it!

[Chris in VA]

Wanted to add to Joanne's above post--the brain sees it as a survival situation.

That's some powerful stuff.

 

My ds has found healing in 12 step (even tho he's a professed atheist), nutrition, weightlifting/exercise, and other tools, like meditation.

 

 

Joanne, could you also address the (I think false) idea that a young person must "hit bottom" before treatment? My understanding is that is not true.

[Joanne]

Wanted to add to Joanne's above post--the brain sees it as a survival situation.

That's some powerful stuff.

 

My ds has found healing in 12 step (even tho he's a professed atheist), nutrition, weightlifting/exercise, and other tools, like meditation.

 

 

Joanne, could you also address the (I think false) idea that a young person must "hit bottom" before treatment? My understanding is that is not true.

 

The idea of "hitting bottom" became popular in the 70's and beyond as information about boundaries and co-dependency grew.

 

It's true that blocking consequences may prolong the active disease, but the opposite is not true: allowing them to hit bottom does not mean they will recovery.

 

The "hitting bottom" vernacular implies and suggests that if it gets "bad enough", the addict will have sufficient motivation and will power to recover - but recovery isn't about motivation or will power. There are literally millions of people who would, if they could, recover. But their disease prevents them from making needed changes that allow abstinence to happily continue.

Boundaries and policies about what help will be offered (or not) need to be in place to protect the helper's resources (financial, spiritual, time, emotional) but not with the expectation that those choices will change the addict. Again, think about a family with a type 2 diabetic providing good food choices; you can't *healthfully" to that with the expectation that the disease will stop.

 

People can also recover without egregious consequences if they 1) are abstinent long enough and 2) do enough brain changing things to sustain the transformation of the brain.

[Joanne]

What is the most helpful thing a family member/friend/spouse did for you re addiction ?

 

My sister stopped giving me money. She sometimes gave money to the places I *said* I needed it for (rent, water, etc).

 

My mom (who died with 35+ years of sobriety herself) never said anything - until she did. Never one empty threat. And when she did say something, she suggested I do the minimum, knowing that the recovery community would tell me what I needed to know if I stuck around long enough - she knew I would not "hear" it from her.

 

I'm also fortunate that I did not have stereotypes about alcoholics (but I did think they needed to be "strong") and I was not biased for or against treatment.

 

My family accepted my amends graciously, and encouraged every bit of recovery activity.

I guess they also understood that my problems were difficult, even though it was my drinking caused it.

[elegantlion]

If the genetic predisposition is there, what do you teach your kids? I still drink on occasion and feel it is best to model responsible drinking. But I'm not sure if that is the best path given the family history. I also sometimes question whether it is best *for me* because I struggle to drink responsibly. I do it, but I have to set very strict limits for myself.

 

 

History of addiction runs in both sides of ds's family. I drink in moderation, yet I worry about ds. We've discussed the genetics lottery and honestly if I had addictive genes, I'd be an alcoholic - I drank a lot as older teen and young adult. I remind him that abstinence is best. At this point he even hates to take an ibuprofen. We discuss peer groups, how to be at a party without drinking (like having a glass of soda in your hands and don't set it down). We discuss what he should do if he does drink, like call me I'll come pick him up without judgment. 

 

He's seen some of the nasty consequences that can happen in addiction. I do believe those will be in the forefront of his mind for a long time and will help him stay away from substances. 

 

Of all my concerns as a parent, alcohol abuse is the highest. Drinking is an acceptable social activity. I enjoy having a drink to relax. I get that not everyone can or should do that. I don't want him to figure out his toleration limit the hard way. 

[AMJ]

For paragraph 2, I encourage you to seek help and support from a setting that understands issues specific to adult children of alcoholics - even if it is "just" self help stuff. Let me know if you want recommendations.

 

To address paragraphs 1 and 3: The physiological need to drink is like the labored lungs of an asthmatic, the impacted pancreas of a diabetic, or growing cancer cells. The brain of an alcoholic seeks relief.

 

From my site (to save me from typing!): In the body of someone who, for whatever reason, is predisposed to substance abuse, alcohol and drugs excite the BEST, MOST AWESOME part of the brain. The part linked with sex, eating, great times with friends; the most powerful/primitive part. The effects of alcohol/drugs (AOD) on the brain mimic that of our natural feel good chemicals - particularly dopamine. (These chemicals are known as neurotransmitters) In a body that is prone to react this way, the BODY needs more of the feel good. At the same time, though, the brain senses a kind of dopamine satiation and therefore produces less natural feel good, mood elevating and mood stabilizing chemicals. That means when the person is clean/sober, they have less natural dopamine and..... you guessed it, they want to feel good again. So, they use AOD. Where upon they feel better, and the brain registered "enough dopamine" and makes even less......

 

Eventually, the addict's brain is such that they use AOD to not feel like crap. Clean/dry, they do not have sufficient natural feel good to feel normal, so they use to feel not like crap.

Thank you for this description. I've been trying to understand an addict I know. With this I'm just a little bit closer.

[heartosunshine]

Thank you so much for this thread!

 

My question: Does having been addicted to one substance increase the risk of getting addicted to a different substance? For example, should a recovering alcoholic avoid narcotic pain killers after surgery?

[Susan in TN]

How does alcohol/drug addiction compare to something like a gaming or gambling addiction?

 

Also, when a person has been sober for many years, does the brain recover an ability to feel good/normal without the substance, or do they have to learn coping strategies to deal with always or mostly always feeling bad?

[elegantlion]

Thank you so much for this thread!

 

My question: Does having been addicted to one substance increase the risk of getting addicted to a different substance? For example, should a recovering alcoholic avoid narcotic pain killers after surgery?

 

 

In my non-expert opinion and anecdotal experience, yes. I would at least request a non-narcotic after surgery, explaining to the doctor exactly why. 

[Joanne]

Thank you so much for this thread!

 

My question: Does having been addicted to one substance increase the risk of getting addicted to a different substance? For example, should a recovering alcoholic avoid narcotic pain killers after surgery?

 

Yes, it is another correlating factor. The *brain* in which the disease exists is predisposed to a disease response to chemicals.

When I arrived at the hospital in October, I was barely conscious, and unable to advocate for myself. They put me on narcotics, which for the level of trauma and damage were needed and appropriate for non diseased bodies. As soon as I was conscious, I requested off. (And, with the help of google and a friend, able to find the best alternatives).

 

Hey! I remember when I had my oldest. I was about 4 years sober, and the epidural person was not there. They asked if I wanted something to "take the edge off" and I sure did! AS SOON AS IT ENTERED MY BODY, I could FEEL the trigger/crave response. In the midst of having my first child, I was thinking about "let me have more of THAT." (I had subsequent babies without meds)

[Joanne]

How does alcohol/drug addiction compare to something like a gaming or gambling addiction?

 

Also, when a person has been sober for many years, does the brain recover an ability to feel good/normal without the substance, or do they have to learn coping strategies to deal with always or mostly always feeling bad?

 

Question 1: Those types of "addictions" are now known in the treatment industry as "process addictions". They often have a chemically supported component - the bodies of a gambling, sex, shopping, debting, gaming addict *changes* in ways that support the progression of addiction. In 12 step settings, particularly AA, they are encourage during meetings to seek the appropriate 12 step program. Before and after meetings, discussing "outside issues" and some help and solution is more relaxed.

 

Question 2: The brain is able to stop the craving need/response. The brain returns to normal (non depressed, non agitated feelings) if it has been treated and the treatment is sustained and ongoing. In 12 Step recovery, the maintaining of the brain changes happens in steps 10 through 12. (Most AA members would not think in terms of brain changes, but more of a spiritual awakening or complete personality change). That said, co-occuring issues of depression, bi-polar, etc are not uncommon and need to be treated also or the person is at greater chronic risk for relapse.

[Juniper]

I am dealing with a parent that has relapsed and has co-occurring issues. I had little to no contact with my mother when she first got sober and no little of the conditions under which she initially got help. What should I look for as positive signs of change and/or her going back into recovery in earnest?

[heartosunshine]

Joanne, could you recommend good books about addiction? Because of family history, I'm very interested in this topic.

 

On a more personal note, as a recovering alcoholic of many years, do you still think about alcohol every day? Is it still very hard to resist on a daily basis or just occasionally? Do you still attend AA meetings? If you'd rather not answer, please don't, it's fine. Congratulations on your (almost) 23 years of sobriety!

[Joanne]

I am dealing with a parent that has relapsed and has co-occurring issues. I had little to no contact with my mother when she first got sober and no little of the conditions under which she initially got help. What should I look for as positive signs of change and/or her going back into recovery in earnest?

 

 

1. Total abstinence from all chemicals unless prescribed for co-occuring.
2. Attendance and participation at recovery meetings or equivalent.
3. Evidence of significant personality change.
4. A LONG time of waiting before any kind of tentative trust from your side.

[Joanne]

Joanne, could you recommend good books about addiction? Because of family history, I'm very interested in this topic.

 

On a more personal note, as a recovering alcoholic of many years, do you still think about alcohol every day? Is it still very hard to resist on a daily basis or just occasionally? Do you still attend AA meetings? If you'd rather not answer, please don't, it's fine. Congratulations on your (almost) 23 years of sobriety!

 

Number 1: Books by Claudia Black, Melodie Beattie, Terrence Gorski. Let me know the area/perspective you seek and I can further assist.

 

Number 2: I almost never think about alcohol - haven't for years. That is true of when I worked in a bar (not too long ago, actually, during my tenure at these boards. I had a job running poker tournaments). Yes, I still attend AA meetings and am very active. However, when my kids were younger and I was working 2-3 jobs at the same time, I did not attend. I returned when I was in a season of life when I could. I enjoy being of service and the support and encouragement of living in steps 10, 11 and 12. You will hear in meetings that people "stopped going to meetings and relapsed." I don't personally believe that is how it happens. I believe that a "program" (way of living) is distinct from meetings but meetings can be part of that. A *choice* to not attend meetings is *already* relapse, drinking eventually follows. In my case, and others I've known, there are times in long term sobriety when frequent or regular meetings are not possible. The program (which is not synonymous with meetings) is a way to live on principles and action). I was glad to return to meetings, but I had a program during those years.

[Myeightkiddies]

Joanne, thank you for sharing.  I'm not sure what the proper response would be, but I would like to say, even if odd, - congratulations!

 

My mother was an alcoholic - a violent one at that.  She died at the age of 49 from liver failure due to the drinking.  It was a long, horrible death.  She never sought treatment and would never admit there was a problem.  Whenever I hear about someone seeking help I really want to congratulate them.  Whether it is just for a month or for many years, just trying to stop is a big deal.