Ask an Orthodox Jew

[eternalsummer]

I guess one specific way to ask that would be - do you (and I mean the community/religion you all, as much as you can speak for it) see the whole "Jewish media control everything etc etc." as a bunch of balderdash or do you see Jews as having a unique and important/relevant place in various parts of society?

 

I realize the Jewish media thing has negative connotations but I have the same question in relation to say Einstein, famous/important scientists, writers, politicians/world leaders, etc.

[YaelAldrich]

Wonderful ;-)

 

What is the reason presented for men and women seperating during ritual prayer?

 

At what age are children expected to pray (not just taught//encouraged to~)?

 

Do you have something akin to a "sermon" when you go to the Temple?

Prayer should be intimate, so like we head to separate dressing rooms by gender, so too we separate for prayer.

 

Each family is different.  My kids hear the routine prayers every day (blessings before/after meals, morning prayers, songs for Shabbos (Sabbath), so they know many of those by age 3 or so.  I ask them to say some of them with me starting then, but more and more intensively as they get older.

 

On the Sabbath, holidays and such; yes, there tend to be sermons in the US (this is taken from the church BTW; except for a special sermon the Sabbath before Passover and the Sabbath before Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement).  Elsewhere, unless a US style congregation, not so much.  During the weekday prayers, sometimes the rabbi or someone learned gives a quick 5-10 minute speech between the afternoon and evening prayers if they are contiguous.   And remember, we don't call it a Temple, beis/beit hakenesset, shul or synagogue works well.

[YaelAldrich]

 

 

How would you describe the sense of place that the orthodox jewish community feels, in terms of relevance/ position/role in the world, both contemporarily and with a historical view?

I guess one specific way to ask that would be - do you (and I mean the community/religion you all, as much as you can speak for it) see the whole "Jewish media control everything etc etc." as a bunch of balderdash or do you see Jews as having a unique and important/relevant place in various parts of society?

 

I realize the Jewish media thing has negative connotations but I have the same question in relation to say Einstein, famous/important scientists, writers, politicians/world leaders, etc.

Oh, we own the world.  Ooops, don't tell anybody. :)

 

No, we Jews  SHOULD be an ohr l'goyim, light until the nations.  Good character traits and all that kinda stuff.  Are we super smart?  Maybe?  Maybe we try extra hard and even secular Jews value education?  I'd like to think our group is extra special.  What do YOU think? :)

[YaelAldrich]

now one of you needs to have a second opinion so we can get 2 jews, 3 opinions :)

we will don't worry. It takes time...

[eternalsummer]

I think Jews are exceptional; I cannot explain it religiously as I am not Jewish, either by religion or ethnicity.  I don't know if it is genetics (almost certainly that is part of it) or history or just something mysterious.  I think the Jews have a significant role to play in human development (and have already played a significant role, obviously), but I don't have a very good feel for what it is, exactly.

 

I can't make heads or tails of the liberalism of American Jews in the media and esp. Hollywood, alas.

[eternalsummer]

Is there a split (not maybe a religious or even overt split, but a community-identity thing) between Orthodox Jews in the US and Orthodox Jews in Israel?  I read Chosen by Chaim Potok when I was 12, but that is about all the sense I have of it.

 

 

[eternalsummer]

Do you see most (or all?) of the  - what is the word, mitzvot? (the following of the various rules in the torah) as moral instructions or just technical instructions?  Is there an effort to understand the moral behind the technical instruction, or is it assumed that there are some laws that are mysteries (that is, have no basis in morality that anyone can see but are god's word and therefore must be followed)?

[eternalsummer]

Here is an example:  so you've got kosher laws, right?  And one of them is to not eat the blood of an animal, so there are lots of customs and traditions and rules and regulations to avoid doing so, so that you've obeyed god.

 

Is that just a technical consideration in Orthodox Judaism (which seems more concerned with obeying the laws in the torah/talmud than say Reform Judaism) - you are just doing the things that are necessary (and a lot more, to be extra sure) to obey the specific law as given?

 

Or is there consideration within the religion for why that law might exist (perhaps to reduce the suffering of the animal? I don't know); in which case you'd have to do a lot more than worry about how the animal was slaughtered, as modern farm animals (even kosher ones) are often raised in really inhumane ways, which the writers of the torah/god could never have considered when the torah was written, right?

 

Or do you just say, heck, we don't know why that's in the torah, but we know we have to do as god says so that's why we're doing this?

 

 

[NASDAQ]

Oh, no, goodness no. 

 

Yes, a *potential* convert should be discouraged at first - or at least cautioned that this isn't needful, and that there are many challenges and hardships that come with joining our people... but once they are in the process, they are welcomed with open arms.

 

I know this is the theory, but I think actual experience on this is mixed. In fact, I have experience with several conversion programs, and this is decidedly not the case in any of them. You're not in til you're in, and even after conversion, people can suffer from stigma in many communities.

 

Especially a few years ago when conversions were being annulled/questioned all over the place.

 

[eternalsummer]

 

 

This might sound a little heretical, but I don't think anyone needs a religion to figure out how to behave ethically..

 

 

I agree completely, obviously (I am not religious, and I see religion as a vehicle for morality rather than the source, but it is sure a good vehicle for a lot of people) :)

[eternalsummer]

hmm, that is interesting, the distinction between good and holy

 

 

[eternalsummer]

Or rather, the distinction between the two realms of instructions: those which separate good and bad, and those which separate pure and impure (holy vs profane, maybe?)

[NASDAQ]

I am sorry to hear that. 

 

I'm in the States on the West coast and my older kids have been in a few different settings, and haven't heard of such experiences... but I guess each community has its own challenges and flavor.

 

Thank you for correcting me - I hadn't known that was happening anywhere.  :(

 

IME the west coast is pretty relaxed, but in general there was a long period of tightening up on conversions. Ten years ago Montreal used to hold on to your papers _after_ conversion until they were convinced you really meant it -- a year or so at least. I don't know if they still do. Reuven Bulka used to do approved-by-Israel conversions out of Ottawa, but he gave up because of difficulties with conversions being recognised in Israel. He's a very well-respected rabbi in Canada so it made an impact (http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/12/conversion-controversy-pits-jew-against-jew-123.html, I know Failed Messiah has his own axe to grind but his reproduction of the article is accurate).

[MiMi 4under3]

We believe that everyone goes through a purgatory -style time after they die during which they are on trial (so to speak) and their merits and non-merits are weighed.  Everybody, secular, Reform, Conservative, whatever have merits.  So this time period never lasts more than 11 months. :)  Then their souls get shuttled off to Heaven (as much as we understand)  where things are good and there is a feast with two of the animals that G-d originally made in the creation of the world, the Leviatan (giant fish like creature) and the Shor ha-bor (mammoth sized cow thing).  This subject is not one of intense study by us common Jews.

 

 

Thank you for your response.  :)

 

Where specifically can I learn more about this subject? And why isn't it commonly studied?  

 

 

Also, how is "evil"/wrong-doing/sin explained in Judaism, ie. where does it originate? Why does it happen? Man's free-will?

[Momof3]

I will after I say this piece explain (to the best of my ability) the three verses above.  But let me start with this.  In the Jewish idea of a messiah/messianic time, there will be no more war or fighting, everyone will recognize G-d as L-rd and Supreme Commander-in Chief :) , there will be the reinstatement of ritual sacrifices, the dead will arise from the ground in soul form.  I'm looking around -- don't see any of that.  So to Jews, the Messiah's not been here yet. The messiah is also a guy, a person, not a God-man amalgam.  People can't come back from the dead.  Not the really, really dead kind.  The Messiah also comes once, not twice or five times.  So I say to the Jewish perspective, the Messiah has not come yet.  We pray he does (notice it's not a "He" with a capital letter H.  He will have no divinity about him.  He will be a king, a flesh and blood king.) every day, multiple times a day.

 

OK, now onto the three verses.  Now I am reading them in Hebrew, the language the (Jewish) Bible was written.  I'm guessing you are not.  Your Bible is a translation from the Hebrew to the Greek (forced out of 70 rabbis- the Septuagint), then from the Greek to Latin and from Latin to your language.  That many translations can make some "telephone game" problems even without any deliberate mistranslations.  

 

Isaiah 53: The whole passage speaks about Israel.  My people are the Jews.  All of these prophets are chastising the Jews for their many, many sins throughout that entire time period.  It  must be rather clear to the Rabbis elucidating the text as there is only one commentary on the word "ami" my people.  The RaDaK says, all peoples and the people said here, because of their sins there came to them a potch (Yiddish for smack/hit), there was not sin in their midst.  All the verbs there are in the plural.  

 

Micah 5:  The Messiah can come from anywhere.  Probably Brooklyn since we have a lot of Jews there. :) The Rabbinic Commentaries (Rashi, Radak, Metzudas David, Even HaEzer) all say that since King David came from Bethlehem this is why it's mentioned and important.  Now the RaDak (he tends to the most "out-there" regular commentary) continues that Bet-Lehem, an important city in the territory of Yehuda and from Shevet (tribe) Yehuda (the people inherited a section of land and in it is Bet-lehem), will come Melech HaMoshiach (King Messiah).  And Jews think that the messiah will come from the tribe of Yehuda.  So it's no big sign pointing to Jesus.  He's not from Yehudah anyways.  The tribal affiliation of a person comes from their father.  For example, my husband has no Jewish father, so unfortunately he has no tribal affiilation.  Don't know where we will go (tribal-wise)  once the messiah comes -- someone will figure it out!  Likewise, if  Jesus' father was God, then he also has no tribal affiliation.  You don't get to choose or adopt one.  

 

Daniel 9:  Daniel is talking about how (once again!) the Jews have blown it in G-d's eyes and is begging G-d to not do the Ultimate Smackdown.  This prophesy is interrupted by a visit from the Angel Gavriel telling him a time table from which the Jews will repent.  Rashi (12th c. main rabbinical commentary) says this refers to Jerusalem in the time of the first Churban (temple destruction) in the days of King Tzidkiyahu until the second destruction in 70CE.  All the other commentaries talk about how the years are referenced in various places in the Bible and that this prophesy is talking about those current times.  The word "mashiach", annointed one, in that verse (since as you remember I am reading this in the original), according to Rashi is Cyrus (in Jewish lore, the son of Queen Esther and Ahchasverosh) who redeemed the Jews from the first exile in Babylonia to return to Israel.

 

But regardless, please refer back to my first paragraph;  no peace, no Messiah.

Thanks so much!

 

I have a couple more questions... :)

 

1) In the Micah 5 passage, how do you understand the "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" portion of the verse? Does that indicate that the messiah would have to be eternal? Or can those words (in the Hebrew) mean just 'from a long time ago'? 

 

2) Isaiah 9:6 - would you take this to be a messianic reference? This would be a key verse for Christians who believe the OT teaches Messiah would be Divine. (I know you would take serious issue with that belief - I'm just wondering how an O Jew would interpret the verse.)

 

3) In the NT, the Jewish leaders attempt to stone Jesus because "he said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." Essentially, they were accusing him of blasphemy. I talked to some people (Jehovah's Witnesses) who say this was a misunderstanding on the part of the Jews...that Jesus' claim to be the Son of God was NOT the same as saying he WAS God... What is the proper Jewish understanding of Jesus' claims? Was his claim to be Son of God rightly viewed as blasphemous?

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer! This thread has been so helpful already! 

[eternalsummer]

Hah, I was just thinking - is anyone reading that British Views on the American Revolution thread?

 

In my (really very very limited experience), Jewish concern about Jesus is tantamount to British concern about the American Revolution.  

[SeaConquest]

I know this is the theory, but I think actual experience on this is mixed. In fact, I have experience with several conversion programs, and this is decidedly not the case in any of them. You're not in til you're in, and even after conversion, people can suffer from stigma in many communities.

 

Especially a few years ago when conversions were being annulled/questioned all over the place.

 

 

I guess I can chime in on this one since I have personal experience with the Orthodox conversion process through the Beth Din at the RCC (Rabbinical Council of California) in LA. My experience was sadly very political and not unlike what Nasdaq described.

 

My sponsoring rav was at a Modern Orthodox shul in Orange County -- not exactly the epicenter of the frum world. About a year into the conversion process, my rav and his family made aliyah. It took the shul another 1.5 years to find a new rav, but the RCC did not feel the new rav was suitably machmir to oversee the conversion, which was, in most everyone's opinion, ridiculous. But, regardless, the RCC did not give a hoot about me or my feelings on the matter. At that point, I was already 3 years into the conversion process and incredibly frustrated by the whole experience. I ultimately backed away from the RCC, and was born into the waters of the mikvah at the University of Judaism in LA several months later, based on my studies in the Orthodox world. I understand that that fact makes me not a Jew to many in this thread, and I respect that. Most of my Jewish friends and mentors are Orthodox, and they understand that I made the decision that was right for me at that time. At some point, the bitterness of the experience with the RCC will likely fade, and my family and I will make aliyah and complete an Orthodox conversion. But, for now, I am content continuing to learn and grow in the Conservative world. 

[Teannika]

I don't know if it is close, but as a believing Jew, I must constantly hope it is going to happen any second. Some Jews think is coming soon as things are so bad on this earth. Some think it is so close because we are coming up to the year 6000 in the Jewish calendar (we're at 5774). I don't know; I just await his (the messiah's) arrival!

 

I am loving reading this thread and I have so many questions popping up.

 

In regards to what you said above about the 6000 years, do Orthodox Jews believe that there will be 6000 years followed by a 1000 year reign of Messiah?

 

As a Christian I believe that the symbolism for the Sabbath is a special sign for Jews in that it symbolises a day of rest as according to scripture. And that this sign of the Sabbath day not only fits the seven day week, but also other periods of time.

 

If a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, then there is 6000 years of history followed by 1000 years when Messiah reigns on earth, fulfilling the symbol of the Sabbath for being a time of rest.

 

(Apologies that I am referencing a NT verse when I said "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years". I just wanted to check if it's something that you also recognise, and maybe understand from your own Holy scriptures?)

 

Thanks so much!

[Jasperstone]

 

 

 

 

Parah Adumah: The Red Heifer

 

The ritual of the red heifer (in Hebrew, parah adumah) is part of one of the most mysterious rituals described in the Torah. The purpose of this ritual is to purify people from the defilement caused by contact with the dead. The ritual is discussed in Numbers 19. If you find it difficult to understand, don't feel bad; the sages themselves described it as beyond human understanding. What is so interesting about this ritual is that it purifies the impure, but it also renders the pure impure (i.e., everybody who participates in the ritual becomes impure).

It is believed by many that this ritual will be performed by the messiah when he comes, because we have all suffered the defilement of contact with the dead. Thus, the existence of a red heifer is a possible, but not definite, sign of the messiah. If the messiah were coming, there would be a red heifer, but there could be a red heifer without the messiah coming.

 

 

 

Years and years ago, I read that they were planning to clone one. Not sure what came of it.

 

It has to be pure red though, hey? Not a hair that's white, black or grey etc....

[Jasperstone]

We believe that everyone goes through a purgatory -style time after they die during which they are on trial (so to speak) and their merits and non-merits are weighed.  Everybody, secular, Reform, Conservative, whatever have merits.  So this time period never lasts more than 11 months. :)  Then their souls get shuttled off to Heaven (as much as we understand)  where things are good and there is a feast with two of the animals that G-d originally made in the creation of the world, the Leviatan (giant fish like creature) and the Shor ha-bor (mammoth sized cow thing).  This subject is not one of intense study by us common Jews.

 

My rabbi, Cary Friedman,  gives a mashal (a parable) about this Purgatory time and on into Heaven.  You know the UN?  Not everyone there speaks the same language, right?  So there are interpreters giving instant translation so everyone.  The people who have worked on learning Torah and perfecting themselves have a great connection to the interpreters that interpret what G-d is saying to us all in Heaven (since he is the Ultimate Teacher, the classes must be pretty good!).  The people concerned with other things in life will have patchy reception of the G-d-talks since their connection was never strong to begin with and they never worked on themselves.  They have a connection; all people do, but the connection can be better or worse depending on us.  

 

 

Thank you for your replies, they have helped me in a huge way to understand things better. :001_smile:

[Jasperstone]

 

 

We wait so eager for Moshiach - for a time of peace, and health, and safety, and well being, for everyone, a time when our people will be reunited and devote ourselves to Torah and mitzvos.

 

...and we are told that in every generation there is a candidate - someone who, should we merit, would be able to step into that role.

 

 

 

Is Moshiach the name of the Messiah you are waiting for?

 

Also, I was wondering how he would be able to unite all the religions of the world? It's hard to see how the Muslims, or even the Christians will accept him as their leader.

 

Thanks again for this interesting, and thought provoking thread!!!

[Jasperstone]

Is Moshiach the name of the Messiah you are waiting for?

 

Also, I was wondering how he would be able to unite all the religions of the world? It's hard to see how the Muslims, or even the Christians will accept him as their leader.

 

Thanks again for this interesting, and thought provoking thread!!!

 

 

No, need to answer that one, as I just Googled it, and got my answer-

 

moshiah, or moshiach anointed [one]") is a term used in the Hebrew Bible to describe priests and kings, who were traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil as described in Exodus 30:22-25.

 

 

I haven't Googled those other questions though! ;) :laugh:

[YaelAldrich]

I'm on the road all today, so I'll leave the questions to my faithful sisters.  Have fun guys!

[Pam in CT]

I guess I can chime in on this one since I have personal experience with the Orthodox conversion process through the Beth Din at the RCC (Rabbinical Council of California) in LA. My experience was sadly very political and not unlike what Nasdaq described.

 

My sponsoring rav was at a Modern Orthodox shul in Orange County -- not exactly the epicenter of the frum world. About a year into the conversion process, my rav and his family made aliyah. It took the shul another 1.5 years to find a new rav, but the RCC did not feel the new rav was suitably machmir to oversee the conversion, which was, in most everyone's opinion, ridiculous. But, regardless, the RCC did not give a hoot about me or my feelings on the matter. At that point, I was already 3 years into the conversion process and incredibly frustrated by the whole experience. I ultimately backed away from the RCC, and was born into the waters of the mikvah at the University of Judaism in LA several months later, based on my studies in the Orthodox world. I understand that that fact makes me not a Jew to many in this thread, and I respect that. Most of my Jewish friends and mentors are Orthodox, and they understand that I made the decision that was right for me at that time. At some point, the bitterness of the experience with the RCC will likely fade, and my family and I will make aliyah and complete an Orthodox conversion. But, for now, I am content continuing to learn and grow in the Conservative world. 

 

:grouphug: I am very sorry.  How terribly painful and disappointing... may you continue to learn and grown, and have peace.

[Ravin]

A couple of practical and trivial questions--though the answers to the deeper ones are fascinating!

 

First, why no driving cars on the Sabbath? I get that in times when animals were involved in transport, they were to be allowed to rest. It makes sense that this logic would extend to public transit, as there are drivers and operators who must work, but why private cars, when walking is more work? How do bicycles count?

 

Second, who decided turkeys, New World birds not named in scripture, are kosher?

 

Finally, do Jews believe only one G-d exists in the universe, and other monotheisms (Christianity and Islam) are worshipping that same One, just in ways either misguided or not appropriate for the Jewish people, or is your G-d ultimately only the G-d of the Chosen People, and the rest of us have entirely different arrangements that simply don't concern you? (okay, this one's less trivial!)

[sheryl]

Oh, I was raised in an Independent, Bible-believing, some good number of other descriptions Baptist church.  Good people, traditional believers.  During my boarding school years (Hr and Sr yrs in HS) I went to a Southern Baptist church with some dabbling in various Black Christian churches (I am Black and Korean), likewise wonderful people.  I started my journey into Judaism in college.  So I've been Jewish for almost 20 years now.  Couldn't imagine life any other way, but I'll continue that in the next post....

Oh, get it.  You were born Gentile and converted to the Jewish faith, correct?  Gentile by birth and Hebraic by "faith"?

[NASDAQ]

Moshiach is Hebrew for Messiah

[Laurie4b]

You know before I head off to my other work, I forgot to mention this about the group you saw.  We O Jews do have a goodly number of people in our midst that have developmental problems or birth defects.  Many (especially within the more right wing groups) don't stop having children because of age nor do they have routine ultrasounds because in their eyes, every child is a complete blessing (even to the point that major rabbis give children/people with special needs the honors we give to great rabbis.  They say they are a reincarnation, but one with very little to fix within their soul - we humans are here on earth to do mitzvos (G-d's commandments) to rectify the soul's imperfections; those with special needs have little to fix as their capability to do as many mitzvos is less) .  

 

Therefore, we have numerous organizations that help support the families of such children.  They do respite care on weekends and holidays, they come to take care of the other children in the household and give them extra attention and love, they take these special children to summer camp and that is probably what you saw.

 

I was not aware of Orthodox Judaism having a belief in reincarnation. Do you mean it in the same way as a Hindu would mean it? The concept sounds similar in that you say that people were put on earth to rectify the soul's imperfections. Could you elaborate more on what you mean?

 

What is/are the authoritative source(s) for what Orthodox Jews believe?

We believe that everyone goes through a purgatory -style time after they die during which they are on trial (so to speak) and their merits and non-merits are weighed.  Everybody, secular, Reform, Conservative, whatever have merits.  So this time period never lasts more than 11 months. :)  Then their souls get shuttled off to Heaven (as much as we understand)  where things are good and there is a feast with two of the animals that G-d originally made in the creation of the world, the Leviatan (giant fish like creature) and the Shor ha-bor (mammoth sized cow thing).  This subject is not one of intense study by us common Jews.

 

My rabbi, Cary Friedman,  gives a mashal (a parable) about this Purgatory time and on into Heaven.  You know the UN?  Not everyone there speaks the same language, right?  So there are interpreters giving instant translation so everyone.  The people who have worked on learning Torah and perfecting themselves have a great connection to the interpreters that interpret what G-d is saying to us all in Heaven (since he is the Ultimate Teacher, the classes must be pretty good!).  The people concerned with other things in life will have patchy reception of the G-d-talks since their connection was never strong to begin with and they never worked on themselves.  They have a connection; all people do, but the connection can be better or worse depending on us.  

 

This sounds different than a belief in reincarnation. Can you help me understand how the two beliefs fit together?

 

This also sounds like everyone gets to heaven though for some it's a better experience than for others. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

 

What is/are the authoritative source(s) for what Orthodox Jews believe?

[Ipsey]

As I'm sure you know, fundamentalist Christians take the 1st chapter of Genesis a literal, and many of them believe that this happened about 6,000 years ago. What is the Orthodox understanding of the 6 days of creation?

Thanks kindly!

[Xuzi]

Thank you to all the wonderful Jewish women who have been answering questions!

 

I have a few more for you. :D

 

I'd known that a person's "Jewishness" comes from the mother, correct? And I've learned in this thread that their tribal affiliation comes from the father. So what I'm wondering is, a person with a Jewish mother but non-Jewish father would be considered a Jew, but without a tribal affiliation, what would a person with a Jewish father need to do to be considered a Jew? Would they need to go through the conversion process? And if they did, would they be allowed to claim their father's tribal affiliation?

[NASDAQ]

The child of a Jewish father has to convert. He does not retain his father's tribal affiliation, but except for Levites and Cohens, most (virtually all?) Jews don't know what tribe they would belong to and it has no bearing on regular Jewish life. If his father was a Levite and his mother a non-Jew, after conversion he isn't a Levite.

[Laurie4b]

We have the Torah, Written and Oral, given to Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai.

 

The Oral Torah, some of which is now written down in the Mishnah and Gemara, gives guidelines for how we learn out from our texts, how we apply things to new situations.

 

From there we branch out into Law codes and commentaries...

 

It would take a library to begin to cover the sources.

 

As I seem to say to almost every question - it is complicated.

 

Is the Torah the first 5 books of what Christians call the Old Testament/the books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)--or does Torah encompass all the Scripture?  What exactly is your Scripture? Are the names of the books the same as one would find in a Christian Bible? 

 

In Christianity, Protestants will say that the Bible is the only source of authority whereas Catholics and Eastern Orthodox will say that the Bible is not only not the only source of authority, but that the church gave us the Bible and tradition. It sounds like orthodox Judaism is more like Catholic/EO than like Protestants in terms of authoritative sources.

[Laurie4b]

 

 

We wait so eager for Moshiach - for a time of peace, and health, and safety, and well being, for everyone, a time when our people will be reunited and devote ourselves to Torah and mitzvos.

 

...and we are told that in every generation there is a candidate - someone who, should we merit, would be able to step into that role.

 

Chabad (the most highly visible Chassidic dynasty) had an amazing Rebbe...

,,,and those who were so inspired by him, began to hope that he was our generation's candidate, and that made their efforts and prayers and striving more intensely personal, more urgent even...

 

...and then he died.

 

And many dreams and hopes were shattered.

 

...but some people just couldn't let go of those dreams, and searched for justification for a 'second coming', or came up with bizarre conspiracy theories.

 

...and those of us watching from the outside had some horror - is this how Xtianity started?  Are we going to have another 'sect' split off - not in our time, because shifts rarely happen that abruptly, but perhaps in a generation or three?

 

Because what they were positing isn't Jewish theology - there have been many, many potential or false messiahs, but once they die, they are out of the running.  Period.

 

..

 

But upthread, it was said that the Moshiach was human, not eternal, and would die. Here, since he died, he couldn't be the Moshiach because he died.  Can you explain?

 

[SeaConquest]

Oh, honey, I am so sorry.

 

Communal politics can be so destructive. 

 

I wonder if part of the issue could be the fallout from the negotiations with the Israeli Rabbinut? 

 

I remember there being a whole thing a number of years ago and a resolution that led to acceptance of geirus through Orthodox Batei Din that had signed on to a specific framework?  Perhaps they were concerned about losing their acceptance if they used a supervising Rabbi who, for whatever reason, didn't fit w/in the right boundaries. 

 

...in any case I am sorry you were hurt by it... sometimes organizations can get so caught up in their procedures and policies they can lose sight of the individuals. 

 

...I have a friend who when she went to get married had to go through geirus, b/c when the mother's geirus was examined the supervising Rabbi was deemed inadequately reliable - the mother actually went through geirus again too - in case they ever wanted to make aliyah so her status would be clear.

 

I got the impression that it could be a lengthier, more involved process there than here, but since it isn't l'maiseh (of practical import) for me, I have never looked into that impression.

 

I wish you peace and joy in your journey.  :grouphug:   Your commitment and perseverance is amazing. 

 

 

 

Thank you, Eliana. That is very kind of you to say, but I am undeserving of such praise. As I was going through the very protracted Orthodox conversion process, while I understood on an intellectual level the reasons for the lengthy ordeal, a large part of me felt that all the hoop-jumping (made all the more complicated because I was a single woman at the time, not motivated by engagement to a a frum man, which seemed to expedite the process) was supremely unfair and ridiculous. Historically, conversion has played an important role in the lives of Kol Yisrael, and I sincerely doubt Ruth and her contemporaries had to endure anything resembling the modern political quagmire that is today's Orthodox gerus process.

 

Nevertheless, Yael is right. Converts flame out and do not fully embrace the yolk of the mitzvos. It is hard to leave one's old life behind -- for a variety of reasons. I was not really converting "from" something per se -- true, my family is Catholic, but I was never a Christian. I *always* knew that much, even when I struggled to define my relationship with Hashem. I never mourned the loss of Santa and the Easter bunny, so much as the loss of non-kosher restaurants and USC football games on Saturdays, even though those things are just as superficial. The loss of my 24/7 connection to the modern world was the biggest challenge, made all the more complicated because Judaism is meant to be a family and communal affair, and I was a single woman working 80+ hours per week in a large law firm in a relatively small Jewish community. It was problematic on many levels, as you can imagine.

 

Unlike Yael, my level of observance has waxed and waned over time. So, I suppose it is fitting that things progressed as they did with the RCC. I did eventually marry. My husband is from Montreal. He is not Jewish. He was not raised with any religion, but it was a requirement for me that we would have a Jewish home, which I defined to mean that there would not be any other competing religions. Our children are obviously raised as Jews, and welcomed in the Conservative world based on my conversion. Over the 7 years of our marriage, he has grown in his knowledge of Judaism (even attending several Chabad seders with me -- you can imagine that commitment!), but I would never force a conversion on anyone. He has expressed an interest in making aliyah someday, so, if it takes us 10 or 20 years to get to the point where we are completely shomer mitzvos and complete an Orthodox conversion as a family, then that was simply Hashem's plan all along. But, I know that I am a Jew, perhaps just a slow learner who takes a circuitous path. ;)   

[SeaConquest]

G-d created the world in 6 stages, each of which has a deeper, mystical significance.

 

Was it a literal 6 days. 

 

Does it matter?

 

There are a number of ways to look at it, and arguments can (and have) been made for one perspective or another... but the take home messages remain the same.

 

Ditto the age of the universe - there are a lot of intellectually fascinating commentaries, but none of it has the theological angst I hear from some strands of the fundamentalist Xtian world.

 

I like this series of books by Gerald Shroeder, who is an MIT-trained physicist. He gives a very interesting take on the creation story from a scientific and Jewish perspective.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Big-Bang-Theory-Discovery-ebook/dp/B005KB0V62/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398973040&sr=8-1&keywords=genesis+and+the+big+bang 

[Laurie4b]

Torah has multiple meanings.

 

The Torah given at Sinai was the Chumash (Pentateuch) and the Oral Torah

 

Tanakh (which is sometimes also called Torah) is Torah (in the 5 books sense), Neviim (Prophets), and Kesukim (Writings)

 

Neviim: Yehoshua, Shoftim (Judges), Shmuel 1 & 2, Melachim (Kings) 1 & 2, Yechezkel (Ezekiel), Yirmiyahu (Jeremiah), Yeshayahu (Isaiah), and Trei Asar )12 minor prophets)

 

Kesuvim: Tehillim (Psalms), Mishlei (Proverbs), Iyov (Job), the 5 Megillos [Esther, Rus, Shir HaShirim (Song of Songs, Koheles (Ecclesiastes), and Eicha (Lamentations)], Daniel, Ezra/Nechemya, Divrey haYamim 1& 2 (Chronicles)

 

The Oral Torah which is embedded in the Mishnah and Gemara is part of the Divine Revelation and gives us not just expansions or explanations of the Written Torah, but the process by which we are to learn out from our sources.

 

One of my favorite stories from the Gemara (I'll give a super-abbreviated and simplified version):

 

There was a dispute about an oven - was it kosher or treif?  The group of Rabbeim deciding the matter reached a decision: treif.  ...but there was one dissenter, a very learned Rabbi and made many articulate arguments, but did not convince his colleagues... so he tried appeal to miracle - if the oven is kosher let the river reverse its course, a tree uproot itself, the study walls fall in... and each thing happened...but each time his colleagues said 'we don't decide halacha based on trees, or rivers, etc.

 

So he said, if I am right, let a heavenly voice proclaim it... and a voice called out from heaven "he's right, guys'

 

..so you'd that would be it, right?

 

But one of the other Rabbis stood up and (quoting the Torah) said "lo ba shamiyim hi" (it is not in the heavens)

 

..we don't change halacha for a miracle (or a new prophet or some apparent revelation)... once the Torah was given it was our responsibility to use the tools we'd been given to make decisions in accordance with Torah...and not each for him/herself, but as a community...

 

Tradition is important, but the word I'd use is mesorah, which is sometimes translated as tradition, but which is a chain of transmission going back to Sinai.

 

Thank you. So where does the belief in reincarnation come from? (I am still trying to wrap my mind around that because it's totally new to me that it is consistent with orthodox Judaism.) Would all orthodox Jews say that or just some?

 

 

[SeaConquest]

:grouphug:

 

 Thank you for sharing your story.  

 

I think the Orthodox process is lengthy because it is a complex, often challenging transition... and part of the process is, as I understand it, to become not just observant, but part of the community... and that takes time....and until that happens, one isn't rooted.

 

I don't see it (in its best & ideal form) as technicalities, or suspicion that someone might backslide so much as trying to be sure that if someone takes on this commitment s/he has the tools to be able to live up to it.

...and it isn't easy.. and it is even harder for singles, or in a small community... or for any number of other reasons

 

 

It sounds as if you are building a life that works for you and your family, one that has growth and community and love and joy... may you go from strength to strength and find the path that leads to the fulfillment of your soul.  :grouphug:

 

 

 

Thank you. To be clear, especially for anyone contemplating an Orthodox conversion, while the process is long, and can be frustrating at times, and while the Orthodox world can seem intimidating at first to outsiders, I found the Orthodox community to be very welcoming overall to anyone expressing a sincere desire to learn and grow in a Jewish life. I came to the Orthodox world with a very feminist worldview and numerous misconceptions about the treatment of women in traditional Jewish life. People in the community opened their homes, their families, and their way of life to me for shabbat, for festivals, to mentor me -- so much so that I frequently had to turn down invitations because I had so many. These people, my people remain today some of my closest friends and mentors. I will forever be grateful for their chesed/kindness and generosity. 

[Laurie4b]

Aiui, What does Aiui mean? the primary source for the idea of reincarnation is the Zohar (the core text of Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism Where did it come from and when? ) (other sources and commentaries reference this as well, the only one I've read is the Ramban.What is Ramban? (when)

 

I don't (am not even vaguely qualified) to study kabbalah, so the source I have most easily to hand is Derech Hashem (The Way of Hashem) by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto which is one of a few books that tries to summarize the basic concepts of Jewish belief. So this is a modern book? It's a summary of Jewish beliefs, right, but what makes something a Jewish belief? (I guess that's what I'm getting at with my questions about what is authoritative.)

 

In Part 2 verse 10 he says:  [i'm using R' Kaplan's translation of what? - I;m heading out shortly and don't have time to do my own - sorry]

 

"...G-d arranged matters so that a man's chances of achieving the ultimate salvation should be maximized...a single soul can be reincarnated a number of times in different bodies, and in this manner can rectify the damage done in previous incarnations . Similarly it can also achieve perfection that was not attained in its previous incarnations."

 

R' Saadia Gaon's Emunos V'Deos (Beliefs and Knowledge - another attempt at summarizing beliefs) rejects (rather scornfully) the idea of reincarnation. Same questions here as above for Luzzatto's book. What sources does he use to decide something is an orthodox Jewish belief?

 

So, there is support for the idea - from kabbala & from the belief that we each have an contribution to make, that only we can make, and that we might get multiple opportunities to do so.

 

...but there are also objections.

 

Aiui, Chabad What is this?  is fully behind the reincarnation idea (which makes sense, Chassidus has strong Kabbalstic connections), but my part of the universe is more agnostic on the subject. 

 

Does that help?

 

See questions inside your text. Sorry for my ignorance. I don't even have the basics to understand the sourcing, which is what I'm trying to understand.  For instance, if you ask an orthodox (little o) Christian whether something is a belief within historically orthodox Christianity, they will reference the Bible (the scripture--though they may disagree on the interpretation, it would be cited as the source), the ancient creeds (Apostles' or Nicene most commonly), or church tradition (which they believe has been handed down since the early church passed down from the apostles to others right on down to the present.) So it would be helpful to know what category of thing you are citing. And please understand that my ignorance may well extend to what the categories actually mean!

 

Also, if you happen to know when the belief first came about, I'd be very interested to hear about that, too.

[Ravin]

Aiui = as I understand it.

[Rivka]

We live in a neighborhood that's about 75% frum, which means that we get a fair amount of people knocking on our door Friday evening to ask us to come turn off something they accidentally left on. :lol:

 

Some of the kids in the neighborhood are not allowed to pet our dog on the Sabbath. Their parents have explained to us that you can't touch someone else's animal on the Sabbath. Other times, though, I'll be walking the dog on the Sabbath and a father will encourage his kids to come up and pet her. Is this an area of disagreement? It doesn't seem to fall into any of the categories of work listed above. Practically speaking, if a kid without a parent approaches my dog on the Sabbath, should I tell them not to pet her or leave it up to the kid?

[Forget-Me-Not]

G-d created the world in 6 stages, each of which has a deeper, mystical significance.

 

Was it a literal 6 days. 

 

Does it matter?

 

There are a number of ways to look at it, and arguments can (and have) been made for one perspective or another... but the take home messages remain the same.

 

Ditto the age of the universe - there are a lot of intellectually fascinating commentaries, but none of it has the theological angst I hear from some strands of the fundamentalist Xtian world.

So this is not a "salvation" issue? (I'm not sure if "salvation" is the right word here or if it holds Christian connotation. I couldn't think of another word). So, for example, it would be acceptable for a Jewish person to hold, say, a theistic evolution viewpoint?

[Ameena]

Unlike what Yael (I think) mentioned about most synagogues being Orthodox outside the US, ours really isn't. It's a Sephardic synagogue, and the only truly observant family is the rabbi's family.

 

*snip*

 

 

Can you elaborate on the differences in a Sephardic group vs. a Orthodox group? I have a couple of ancestors way back that were Sephardic Jews from Spain, and I've always wondered what difference there was.

 

The child of a Jewish father has to convert. He does not retain his father's tribal affiliation, but except for Levites and Cohens, most (virtually all?) Jews don't know what tribe they would belong to and it has no bearing on regular Jewish life. If his father was a Levite and his mother a non-Jew, after conversion he isn't a Levite.

 

Out of curiousity, is there a limit on how many generations down from a Jewish Mother would still be considered Jewish? Or is there a point where after 2/3/4/x many generations of non-practicing descendants one is no longer considered Jewish?

[NASDAQ]

Can you elaborate on the differences in a Sephardic group vs. a Orthodox group? I have a couple of ancestors way back that were Sephardic Jews from Spain, and I've always wondered what difference there was.

 

 

Out of curiousity, is there a limit on how many generations down from a Jewish Mother would still be considered Jewish? Or is there a point where after 2/3/4/x many generations of non-practicing descendants one is no longer considered Jewish?

 

Non-Orthodox Judaism is an Ashkenazi thing, so all Sephardi shuls are Orthodox. Not all Sephardi Jews are Orthodox; They may not practice or they may affiliate with non-Orthodox movements.

 

Sephardim have differences in liturgy and practice that are may seem really trivial if you're not familiar with the source material. Things like prayers in slightly different order, a few thing included or not included, different tunes. Sephardim have to eat cholov Yisroel (explained up-thread), can't wear wigs, and can eat legumes over Passover.

 

Theoretically Jewish status will keep passing down and down, but very few people are able to prove the Jewish status of people more than a couple generations removed.

[Joker]

I have a question based on another thread going on right now. Do you believe people used to live for hundreds of years?

[Joker]

I also wanted to say that this thread has been amazing! Oldest dd has a few friends who are Jewish but many of them only have a Jewish mother but a father of a differing belief. I never knew so much that has been mentioned here and I've been sharing it with her. She's always been so curious but is hesitant to ask too much so this has made some things a bit clearer. Thanks!

[Momof3]

1) We don't translate it that way - the kedem ("old") shapes the next bit 'days of olam'... olam has a wide range of meanings (in a tefilla we do each day 'Adon Olam' it is 'universe' (or world))... it has a connotation of expanse, in time or space.  In this pasuk we're talking about origin... the origin goes way back...

 

No, moshiach is not going to be eternal.  He will die (and stay dead!).  Like any other human being.  He will be as human as you or I.

 

2) I assume you mean 9:5?  Or do you number things differently? 

 

I think the verses may be numbered slightly different. In my version, it's vs.6 ("for unto us a child is born, etc.") but it must be vs.5 in your Hebrew Scriptures.

 

No, no messianic reference at all. It refers to King Chizkiyahu (Hezekiah) The pasuk talks about his birth had that G-d called Chizkiyahu the prince of peace.

 

(I can go through word by word and explain the translation, but I assume the end result is what you are looking for.  [seeing this as messianic is, imo, another assertion based on mistranslation]

 

If you do mean 9:6, it is still talking about Chizkiyahu.

 

3) Your NT is filled with errors in its depiction of Jewish thought, Jewish law, and Jewish procedure.  It makes no sense in the context of the actual processes we had at the time. 

 

I'm happy to talk about 'blasphemy' from a Jewish perspective, but I will not discuss your NT, quotes from it, or things presented in it.

 

Fair enough! I'll shy away from that. :) Thanks for letting me know.

 

I don't want to sound unfriendly, but I see no toelis, no positive purpose in such a discussion.

 

 

Hmm... I have sooo many questions! :) I could spend all day just perusing the questions & answers from other posters... Thank you all for taking the time to share the Jewish world with us! :)

 

What is your understanding of sin? 

 

My understanding: 

 

1) All people are born sinners.

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not", 

Jeremiah 17:9 "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked",

Isaiah 64:6 "we are all like an unclean thing and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away", etc.

 

Sin is "missing the mark" - not meeting up to God's holiness.

 

2) Sin separates me (and all of us) from God.

 

Because of God's holiness, man (speaking generically here, I apologize if I offend anyone :)) is cut off from a relationship with God.

 

3) Blood is required for the atonement of the soul.

 

This is where the blood sacrifices would come into play. God clothed Adam & Eve with the skins of an animal, indicating that an animal had been killed (blood shed), and God accepted Abel's sacrifice (a lamb) but not Cain's... David also speaks (I believe it's Psalm 40) to "sacrifice & offering Thou didst not desire...burnt offering and sin offering hast Thou not required. Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." So, while the blood sacrifice is important, God is ultimately looking at the heart.

 

Does that sound like a proper understanding of the Scriptures? I know there have been a lot of questions already about blood sacrifices... Forgive me if this has already been asked: Will there ever be a time when the blood sacrifices will be done away/obsolete?

[Momof3]

No, no, and no.

 

1) We are born with perfect neshamos, sparks of divinity, but the challenges and limitations of the physical world make staying aware of the pull to the Divine that is inherent in our souls hard. 

 

I could expand on this if you'd like, but the fundamental answer will be the same - no, we do not consider humans to be inherently 'sinful'... the latter is not a word I can imagine ever using.

 

[There are a number of words that are used for describing failing to live up our potential or choosing to make a wrong choice - cheit, missing the mark is one, aveirah, transgression,a crossing over of boundaries is another...]

 

2) No, make a wrong choice never cuts us off from G-d, chas v'shalom (G-d forbid)... it is as if we stepped further away...but we can always step back again.

 

3) No.  This is a complicated topic, but let me just point out the korbanos (offerings) in the Beis HaMikdash were for **unintentional** transgressions.  Their role in the overall hashkafic picture is complex, and multi-faceted, but the requirement for atonement is teshuvah (repentance).

 

 

4) There are many who hold that the only personal korbanos in the rebuilt Beis HaMikdash with be the korban Todah (the thanksgiving offering).

 

I don't want to sound unfriendly, but your questions (not just these) are those typically put forward by proselytizers, and, however positive your intentions, I have some buttons around the dynamic.

 

 

Wow. Thank you for responding! I didn't realize our belief systems were so different! I really appreciate you taking the time to answer - especially when my questions are coming across as forward. I'm really not meaning them that way at all. I have only met maybe one or two Orthodox Jews in my life - and this is a wonderful opportunity for me to learn from you all!

 

I want to take some time to reread your answers above, and mull over them a bit. I'm sure I'll have more questions to ask... Would you rather stay away from theological questions?

 

Thanks again!

[eternalsummer]

I've noticed, from having been exposed to both but never committed as an adult to either, that in Christianity there's generally a sense of sort of, God comprises/is the source of everything good, and Satan comprises/is the source of everything bad, and there's a fair amount of focus on good vs evil and resisting Satan, etc.

 

There was not much of that in Judaism, as I recall.  Do you think Jews have a more holistic view of the universe?

 

 

[Momof3]

No, no, and no.

 

1) We are born with perfect neshamos, sparks of divinity, but the challenges and limitations of the physical world make staying aware of the pull to the Divine that is inherent in our souls hard. 

 

I could expand on this if you'd like, but the fundamental answer will be the same - no, we do not consider humans to be inherently 'sinful'... the latter is not a word I can imagine ever using.

 

[There are a number of words that are used for describing failing to live up our potential or choosing to make a wrong choice - cheit, missing the mark is one, aveirah, transgression,a crossing over of boundaries is another...]

 

2) No, make a wrong choice never cuts us off from G-d, chas v'shalom (G-d forbid)... it is as if we stepped further away...but we can always step back again.

 

3) No.  This is a complicated topic, but let me just point out the korbanos (offerings) in the Beis HaMikdash were for **unintentional** transgressions.  Their role in the overall hashkafic picture is complex, and multi-faceted, but the requirement for atonement is teshuvah (repentance).

 

 

4) There are many who hold that the only personal korbanos in the rebuilt Beis HaMikdash with be the korban Todah (the thanksgiving offering).

 

I don't want to sound unfriendly, but your questions (not just these) are those typically put forward by proselytizers, and, however positive your intentions, I have some buttons around the dynamic.

 

 

Okay...trying to fit the pieces together in my mind...

 

When you say 'we are born with perfect neshamosh' do you mean the Jewish people? Or everyone?

 

Also, what about Gentiles in #2? Are they born with an inherent 'pull' towards God? Is anyone (Jew or Gentile) ever separated from God at death? 

[eternalsummer]

Who is your favorite Jewish philosopher/theologian?  Do you have a favorite (I forget what the word is, but it kind of means anecdotal tale from the past that may or may not have happened and illustrates something about philosophy or morality or the nature of god or the world or humanity).  I don't mean from the Torah, specifically.