umsami Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Found this interesting: http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/03/must-every-ya-action-heroine-be-petite/284568/ We're not quite to the YA genre yet, but I was wondering what the exceptions were. I'd like my DD to see a wide variety of body types as potential heroines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 "None of these books fawn over their leading ladies’ size..." Exactly. I think the author is exaggerating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredHSmom Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 "None of these books fawn over their leading ladies’ size..." Exactly. I think the author is exaggerating. I don't. The above quote in it's entirety "None of these books fawn over their leading ladies’ size, but, by default, they link being undersized with being exceptional—each of these characters is singled out as special for having more grit, skill, and/or magical prowess than most everyone around them. Divergent goes so far as to associate flab with low moral character: When Tris first meets her nemesis Jeanine, she wears a tight dress that reveals “a layer of pudge around her middle†and knees “crossed with stretch marks.†Of course the virtuous heroine is delicate and birdlike, while the unsympathetic villain has stretch marks." I, too, am tired of the pedestal ascribed to petite women. Teenage girls do catch these statements and they do resonate harmfully in the brains of the non-petite in our world. Neither of my daughters is petite. They are both thin but have a healthy dose of "Eastern-European Peasant" genes as I like to say. Broad hips, broad shoulders, heavily muscled. Why can't we see more Jennifer Lawrence Heroines in our literature as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Tamora Pierce: one herioine is short and stocky/muscular, one is taller than most of the boys, one is pudgy-and is made fun of for it and shrugs it off. I love her books, even now as an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Thinking about dystopian fiction, it makes since that the heroine would come from the starving class and a villian would be from the more privilaged class. The opposite dosen't make as much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I agree there are lots of petite heroines out there, but I've usually thought it's because they're underfed or genetically small as a literary device to emphasize that they're underdogs, not that being small is desirable. I rarely ever get the sense that being bigger is a negative trait from these books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I agree there are lots of petite heroines out there, but I've usually thought it's because they're underfed or genetically small as a literary device to emphasize that they're underdogs, not that being small is desirable. I rarely ever get the sense that being bigger is a negative trait from these books. Bean!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Many of the books mentioned are works of dystopian fiction in which society is starving. In such societies, heaviness or bulkiness and strength would be associated with wealth. That is what it is an indicator for in some novels (not just YA books). Plus, the author makes claims that aren't true. She says Joss Whedon is guilty of this in everything he has written. I don't agree with that. Do you believe that the voluptuous Saffron or warrior Zoe (taller and stronger than her husband) are emaciated or delicate? Sookie Stackhouse is described as well-built, not super thin. Meg Murray from A Wrinkle in Time isn't particularly thin or beautiful. Jo March is no tiny girl. The girls and women in Harry Potter carry of variety of looks that could hardly be described as homogenous. Some of Robin McKinley's female protagonists are not particularly thin or beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'm going to agree with the author on this. It doesn't just happen in dystopian fiction. It's a pretty common trope in fantasy and speculative fiction written by women. Yes, I'm sure it symbolises something and yes, I'm sure in certain conditions a lot of women would be smaller and skinnier but it's become a tiresome theme that one can almost predict now. Certainly after some hamburgers and weapons training there might be a few girls that develop some well muscled arms at least? And "birdlike" long ago passed into the realm of dead cliche. Even before Anne acCaffrey's birdlike Lessa. I remember the time when every heroine seemed to have some horrible scar (from a burn or stabbing or Xenobithian Star Rat bite) that she kept secret until some cute guy said was no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Tamora Pierce: one herioine is short and stocky/muscular, one is taller than most of the boys, one is pudgy-and is made fun of for it and shrugs it off. I love her books, even now as an adult. She was my first thought. Also, the Fire and Thorns trilogy by Rae Carson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 She says Joss Whedon is guilty of this in everything he has written. I don't agree with that. Do you believe that the voluptuous Saffron or warrior Zoe (taller and stronger than her husband) are emaciated or delicate? Zoe was awesome! This is OT but I wish the series had gone on long enough to have told the story of how she and Wash got together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Zoe was awesome! This is OT but I wish the series had gone on long enough to have told the story of how she and Wash got together. They kind of did, didn't they? Didn't Mal hire him as a pilot and Zoe didn't like him at first? I agree though, it would have been nice to see how it went on from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 They kind of did, didn't they? Didn't Mal hire him as a pilot and Zoe didn't like him at first? I agree though, it would have been nice to see how it went on from there. I've only seen the series once through so I may not be remembering all the details correctly, but what I recall is there was a little bit of back story on him being hired and Zoe immediately not liking him but then nothing on how they went from that to being happily married. How it went from there--that's what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I read a lot (a LOT, it's embarrassing) of YA fiction, and I have to agree with the author. Perhaps it depends on the specific sub-genre- SF/F versus realistic fiction, for example- but a lot of the heroines in these books are amazingly petite. And they're always affectionately teased about it. It gets old. I think a part of it is that nowadays, when you write YA fiction, you aren't just writing one book. You're trying to market a series. And one thing you have to do is create a world that the readers want to live in, and characters that the readers want to be. Teenage girls don't generally sit around daydreaming that they're a plain, slightly overweight girl with an underbite or whatever. They want to be thin and beautiful. But authors are savvy enough to realize that they can't just describe their heroines as "borderline anorexic," so they had to find a new way to get across that this person is really, definitely not overweight at all. So "petite" became the new PC way of doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I've only seen the series once through so I may not be remembering all the details correctly, but what I recall is there was a little bit of back story on him being hired and Zoe immediately not liking him but then nothing on how they went from that to being happily married. How it went from there--that's what I meant. I'd bet any amount of money that Zoe punched him immediately after their first kiss. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I've only seen the series once through so I may not be remembering all the details correctly, but what I recall is there was a little bit of back story on him being hired and Zoe immediately not liking him but then nothing on how they went from that to being happily married. How it went from there--that's what I meant. Admitting to knowing an embarrassing amount of sci-fi info to help out: There is a comic book series that picks up where the show left off. The current issue (issue #2) involves Zoe. I haven't read it, but it may contain some of the info you are looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I'd bet any amount of money that Zoe punched him immediately after their first kiss. :D I think Zoe kissed him first, but only after the mustache disappeared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 What about the Prettie and the Uglies? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 *Pretties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Admitting to knowing an embarrassing amount of sci-fi info to help out: There is a comic book series that picks up where the show left off. The current issue (issue #2) involves Zoe. I haven't read it, but it may contain some of the info you are looking for. Thanks! I wonder if ds1 would enjoy these. Then I could say I'm getting them for him. :D Actually he's the bigger Firefly fan; he heard about it from me. He and his friends get together and play the game and watch the show. He even has a Jayne hat. (Yes, I made it for him.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I read a lot (a LOT, it's embarrassing) of YA fiction, and I have to agree with the author. Perhaps it depends on the specific sub-genre- SF/F versus realistic fiction, for example- but a lot of the heroines in these books are amazingly petite. And they're always affectionately teased about it. It gets old. I think a part of it is that nowadays, when you write YA fiction, you aren't just writing one book. You're trying to market a series. And one thing you have to do is create a world that the readers want to live in, and characters that the readers want to be. Teenage girls don't generally sit around daydreaming that they're a plain, slightly overweight girl with an underbite or whatever. They want to be thin and beautiful. But authors are savvy enough to realize that they can't just describe their heroines as "borderline anorexic," so they had to find a new way to get across that this person is really, definitely not overweight at all. So "petite" became the new PC way of doing it. I also think a lot of those authors grew up reading about the petite heroine. It seems to me that it's a long-standing thing. I think they search for some way to make the heroine distinctive, but also overlooked. A way to make her a little"ugly" so she'll stand out to the reader but be overlooked and underestimated by other characters (that's a tiresome trope as well). But the trick is that she still has to be pretty, so she's thin or/and has that horrible scar (that actually isn't horrible). Or has violet, saucer-like eyes that harbor some dark secret... The point is to make her have some feature that prevents her from being conventionally pretty to give readers a small way to identify with her and yet let her still be unconventionally pretty, or rather, differently hot so that two or three hot guys will fall over themselves to woo her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I don't think it's a YA issue, I think it is true in adult fantasy (Sookie Stackhouse, anyone?), in romance novels, in chick lit, and ...... everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Menolly in the Harper hall of Pern books (which are more YA than the dragon riders books) is described as tall and gawky, and generally seen as a nuisance to her family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonfirmath Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 But authors are savvy enough to realize that they can't just describe their heroines as "borderline anorexic," so they had to find a new way to get across that this person is really, definitely not overweight at all. So "petite" became the new PC way of doing it. Amused. I am here to tell you it is perfectly possible to be both petite and overweight at the same time. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Amused. I am here to tell you it is perfectly possible to be both petite and overweight at the same time. :) They usually use other descriptors in the YA books to make clear that these women are all teeny-tiny in every possible way. They're always moaning about how they have narrow, boy-like hips and are so very skinny. :001_rolleyes: And flat-chested. 'Cause they have to throw in a "flaw" somewhere, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 They usually use other descriptors in the YA books to make clear that these women are all teeny-tiny in every possible way. They're always moaning about how they have narrow, boy-like hips and are so very skinny. :001_rolleyes: And flat-chested. 'Cause they have to throw in a "flaw" somewhere, I guess. Birdlike. They are always birdlike. Like a sparrow, never a chubby meat hen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Hmmm....didn't this start with Shakespeare...? Though she be but little, she is fierce.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Hmmm....didn't this start with Shakespeare...? Though she be but little, she is fierce.... That is a quote from Midsummer Night's Dream which features both a tall blonde and a small brunette. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 My theory is that these authors are petite women in a world where shapely, statuesque women are really worshipped. They can write what they want. I also agree that literary petite means all-around tiny and not short like fashion petite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Strawberry Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 That is a quote from Midsummer Night's Dream which features both a tall blonde and a small brunette. ;) It refers to the fairy queen, spoken by her husband after a marital tiff. She was, by necessity, tiny. But the humans were normal sized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 It refers to the fairy queen, spoken by her husband after a marital tiff. She was, by necessity, tiny. But the humans were normal sized. I am aware, lol. Although, it is funny because in the movie version where Mickey Rooney is Puck, Titania is fairly tall. Still, Helena is tall and blonde while Hermia is short and dark. This is evident in the fight scene between the two of them, for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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