justamouse Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 and Norms and Nobility?Not that the programs are aiming after a different goal, but, there's a difference and I can't put my finger on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Oh Holy Cats! We gonna Norm & Nobility chat!!! Iz so excited! Let's roll! :) ::big ears::: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 Lol. You are just the easiest person to please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Okay, the first thing that comes to mind for me is that WTM is a method of thinking so that you can actually finish and understand N & N. Which I've never done...that is one hard book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yeah, that is not an easy read. Intuition says there's a difference. How history based is TWTM? How history based is Norms? Some readings overlap. Norms SEEMS to follow a historical spine--and yet...Norms calls it hist/lit Humane Letters. Should TWTM? Why/not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I haven't read N&N, but I described WTM as history-centered once, and a wise friend corrected me and described it as skill-centered. Don't know if that helps at all as you compare it to N&N, but it helped me understand why parts of WTM appeal to me and parts do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 I haven't read N&N, but I described WTM as history-centered once, and a wise friend corrected me and described it as skill-centered. Don't know if that helps at all as you compare it to N&N, but it helped me understand why parts of WTM appeal to me and parts do not. That actually helps a lot. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kfamily Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Since I have not actually finished Norms and Nobility ( :)), I feel as if I am not qualified to really answer that question. I really wish that he had expanded more on his curriculum. I even tried looking up the school for which he was recently supposed to be working, but I never could really find any new or additional information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Oh Holy Cats! We gonna Norm & Nobility chat!!! Iz so excited! Let's roll! :) ::big ears::::lol: Let's chat. I still haven't read N&N, I just can't get through it. But, Mouse, I recently read Leisure, the basis of culture, by Pieper....and had no trouble reading and understanding that. Maybe I should try N&N again.... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Maybe we should set up a Norms and Nobility Challenge? Whaddya think? How hard could it be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2Cs Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'm in! Just put in an inter-library loan request for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 I need to read it again, also, so I would totally be willing to do a read along with you all. Hey, even if we do 1 page at a time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakeside Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I am interested in this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I never heard of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbitmom Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'm in. Just read the prologue today and already feel like I'll need discussion just to make it through. (Reading it aloud, slowly, helps some.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKDmom Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I want a kindle version of N&N. My library doesn't have it, and I'm afraid to shell out the $$ for something that looks like it might gather a lot of dust on my shelf. ;) Dare I buy it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 I want a kindle version of N&N. My library doesn't have it, and I'm afraid to shell out the $$ for something that looks like it might gather a lot of dust on my shelf. ;) Dare I buy it?? Do you like CiRCE? Do you like books on education and methodologies and theory? Do you like great slogging books that make you wonder if you have two brains cells to rub together? Then it's the book for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 offhand -- my N&N is on its way, thanks to you! (and now I've got to squinch around the rest of my Feb. budget to make space for it ... no more books, no more books, this must be my mantra) at any rate, I've not read it yet, this is just a thought based on browsing about N&N and having considered what WTM has & lacks relative to the classical education I want -- I was disappointed that WTM's version of classical didn't have virtue frankly at its center. And N&N seems to be trying to do that. The heart of classical education seems, IMHO, to be the development of virtue and the skills and the content are in service of that. Do you like CiRCE? Do you like books on education and methodologies and theory? Do you like great slogging books that make you wonder if you have two brains cells to rub together?Then it's the book for you. What if CiRCE drives me bananas but I fit all the other categories? I hope there's hope!!! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I hauled that book around from a friend for months and couldn't get past page ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Well, when the library opens today I'll call and see if I can do a ILL, they've become accustomed to me asking for odd books. They make strange comments when I go pick up my order. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momacacia Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I wanna join, too! A friend loaned me N&N, but I'm still getting through Leisure (this weekend!) and was about 1/4 way through Wisdom and Eloquence, but will jump into N&N if everyone else does. Must read in the evenings instead of lazing and watching the Olympics . . . :blushing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 offhand -- my N&N is on its way, thanks to you! (and now I've got to squinch around the rest of my Feb. budget to make space for it ... no more books, no more books, this must be my mantra) at any rate, I've not read it yet, this is just a thought based on browsing about N&N and having considered what WTM has & lacks relative to the classical education I want -- I was disappointed that WTM's version of classical didn't have virtue frankly at its center. And N&N seems to be trying to do that. The heart of classical education seems, IMHO, to be the development of virtue and the skills and the content are in service of that. What if CiRCE drives me bananas but I fit all the other categories? I hope there's hope!!! ;) OK, you know a friend and I were talking about exactly this. Here's the thing. First off, we always want to think the best of someone. Secondly, we know, from SWB's lectures, that she is a virtuous person. I think that she let the work (books and authors) to speak for itself. She gave us those lists, and is not getting between the reader and author. Which is expecting a lot of maturity from the reader, but I also think it allowed TWTM to reach a broader audience. In a way, it was THE most missionary minded thing she could have done. And I think that saying TWTM isn't virtue driven is just too simplistic of an answer. N&N does preach to the choir. We may have a sneaking suspicion, and N&N confirms it, and then shows us how to build it. TWTM lays the ground in a much broader way, like I said, it's MUCH more accessible to a broader spectrum of people. I wanna join, too! A friend loaned me N&N, but I'm still getting through Leisure (this weekend!) and was about 1/4 way through Wisdom and Eloquence, but will jump into N&N if everyone else does. Must read in the evenings instead of lazing and watching the Olympics . . . :blushing: Leisure comes first, so don't feel bad at all. You need to know what schola is and it's purpose before you need N&N. I would also pick up The Abolition of Man and give that a quick read before attacking N&N if you could. Should we plan to start in two weeks? Would that give everyone time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 I want a kindle version of N&N. My library doesn't have it, and I'm afraid to shell out the $$ for something that looks like it might gather a lot of dust on my shelf. ;) Dare I buy it?? I think it's a worthy book to buy, and that at some time, you would be grateful that you had it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakeside Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 OK, you know a friend and I were talking about exactly this. Here's the thing. First off, we always want to think the best of someone. Secondly, we know, from SWB's lectures, that she is a virtuous person. I think that she let the work (books and authors) to speak for itself. She gave us those lists, and is not getting between the reader and author. Which is expecting a lot of maturity from the reader, but I also think it allowed TWTM to reach a broader audience. In a way, it was THE most missionary minded thing she could have done. And I think that saying TWTM isn't virtue driven is just too simplistic of an answer. N&N does preach to the choir. We may have a sneaking suspicion, and N&N confirms it, and then shows us how to build it. TWTM lays the ground in a much broader way, like I said, it's MUCH more accessible to a broader spectrum of people. Leisure comes first, so don't feel bad at all. You need to know what schola is and it's purpose before you need N&N. I would also pick up The Abolition of Man and give that a quick read before attacking N&N if you could. Should we plan to start in two weeks? Would that give everyone time? So, would you recommend reading Leisure first? Anything else besides The Abolition of Man? I was hoping to get a start on that this afternoon while the little one napped. I only got a few pages in when he woke up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 So, would you recommend reading Leisure first? Anything else besides The Abolition of Man? I was hoping to get a start on that this afternoon while the little one napped. I only got a few pages in when he woke up. You don't HAVE to, but it's worth it. Leisure is what school is, and why it is. Norms and TWTM is how (Norms more on why) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakeside Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 You don't HAVE to, but it's worth it. Leisure is what school is, and why it is. Norms and TWTM is how (Norms more on why) Thanks, that's helpful. And just to be sure, the book is Leisure: The Basis of Culture by Josef Pieper right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Thanks, that's helpful. And just to be sure, the book is Leisure: The Basis of Culture by Josef Pieper right? Yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKDmom Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I wanna join, too! A friend loaned me N&N, but I'm still getting through Leisure (this weekend!) and was about 1/4 way through Wisdom and Eloquence, but will jump into N&N if everyone else does. Must read in the evenings instead of lazing and watching the Olympics . . . :blushing: But the Olympics only come once every 4 years (or 2 years, if you like). The books will still be there next month. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKDmom Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I think it's a worthy book to buy, and that at some time, you would be grateful that you had it. Thanks, that's helpful. And just to be sure, the book is Leisure: The Basis of Culture by Josef Pieper right? You guys are killing my budget. Must. wait. till. March... :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakeside Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Thanks, that's helpful. And just to be sure, the book is Leisure: The Basis of Culture by Josef Pieper right? Great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 OK, you know a friend and I were talking about exactly this. Here's the thing. First off, we always want to think the best of someone. Secondly, we know, from SWB's lectures, that she is a virtuous person. I think that she let the work (books and authors) to speak for itself. She gave us those lists, and is not getting between the reader and author. Which is expecting a lot of maturity from the reader, but I also think it allowed TWTM to reach a broader audience. In a way, it was THE most missionary minded thing she could have done. And I think that saying TWTM isn't virtue driven is just too simplistic of an answer. N&N does preach to the choir. We may have a sneaking suspicion, and N&N confirms it, and then shows us how to build it. TWTM lays the ground in a much broader way, like I said, it's MUCH more accessible to a broader spectrum of people. ... I agree that SWB represents many virtuous qualities, and am grateful for her work -- both what she has produced for the homeschooling community and her generosity in sharing some of her personal experiences & even struggles. Thank you for this perspective on comparing them! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Leisure comes first, so don't feel bad at all. You need to know what schola is and it's purpose before you need N&N. I would also pick up The Abolition of Man and give that a quick read before attacking N&N if you could.Interrupting to say that I pink-sparkly-heart *love* The Abolition of Man. Also, I just bought Leisure, thanks to this thread, and I'm rather tempted to use this post to justify delaying starting N&N, which has been on my shelf for a year and a half. Probably I really ought to start by re-reading The Abolition of Man ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 One*mom, that's so cool!! I have no idea what this Trinity school is, but I really like their Humane Letters! How would one prepare to teach something like that to their kids? (I'm an astrophysicist.) Oh, and I put Abolition of Man on hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 So what we are putting together is that humane letters is ONE subject that overarches Philosophy, history, religion and literature. They're not really broken up in TWTM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 One*mom, that's so cool!! I have no idea what this Trinity school is, but I really like their Humane Letters! How would one prepare to teach something like that to their kids? (I'm an astrophysicist.) Oh, and I put Abolition of Man on hold. You have to read the books. Really, really, really. If you are going to have those discussions with them, if you are going to delve deeply into them, then you must read the books. You get a few books under you, and you start to see why, and you start to make the connections for yourself (because you are older, and wiser, and you've been exposed to more) and the whole if it starts to make sense. And then you can teach it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Esther Maria, I miss you SO SO Much. I remember you asking me what I thought Leisure was, way back when, before I knew it was schola. You had the patience of a saint and I truly miss you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakeside Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 You have to read the books. Really, really, really. If you are going to have those discussions with them, if you are going to delve deeply into them, then you must read the books. You get a few books under you, and you start to see why, and you start to make the connections for yourself (because you are older, and wiser, and you've been exposed to more) and the whole if it starts to make sense. And then you can teach it. Does it matter if it is alongside or ahead of? (I'm sure both/and would be preferable to either/or, but in case that doesn't happen I'm wondering which would be best.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 You have to read the books. Really, really, really. If you are going to have those discussions with them, if you are going to delve deeply into them, then you must read the books. You get a few books under you, and you start to see why, and you start to make the connections for yourself (because you are older, and wiser, and you've been exposed to more) and the whole if it starts to make sense. And then you can teach it. Reading the books is a given. But I doubt it is enough. It is so easy to read into texts, to misunderstand certain terms, to not have enough background. I'm working very hard on Latin and Greek, so we will be able to read classics in a mix of original language and translation, but I still doubt I will have enough background knowlegde to really teach humane letters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Reading the books is a given. But I doubt it is enough. It is so easy to read into texts, to misunderstand certain terms, to not have enough background. I'm working very hard on Latin and Greek, so we will be able to read classics in a mix of original language and translation, but I still doubt I will have enough background knowlegde to really teach humane letters. Of COURSE you can do it! What to Teachhttp://www.circeinstitute.org/resources-what-classical-education/what-teach Lost Tools of Writing Webinars Circe's How to Teach Classically CiRCE's Vimeo page http://vimeo.com/85897803 The board is giving me crazy problems right now with linking but that last link-watch that one first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Does it matter if it is alongside or ahead of? (I'm sure both/and would be preferable to either/or, but in case that doesn't happen I'm wondering which would be best.) Alongside at the least. With life, I have to make reading a priority, because their schooling is a priority. It comes before knitting. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKDmom Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I just started reading Abolition of Man. I :001_wub: C.S Lewis. <edited> I didn't realize this book was missing from my collection. I'm gonna have to go out and find any other books by him that I'm missing. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKDmom Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Ok, I think the break from the boards was long enough. I cannot resist this. :lol: We still don't have the internet though, if there is a book discussion group on N&N or Leisure or Abolition of Man, could somebody PM or email me the link to the thread so that I can make sure to pop on here during our library visit? you can subscribe to the thread, and then you should get a notification when people post to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I hauled that book around from a friend for months and couldn't get past page ten. I quit at page 4 of the Prologue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 So, how about the idea that TWTM is liberal arts, and N&N is humanities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Ok, I think the break from the boards was long enough. I cannot resist this. :lol: We still don't have the internet though, if there is a book discussion group on N&N or Leisure or Abolition of Man, could somebody PM or email me the link to the thread so that I can make sure to pop on here during our library visit? It's funny I first read Leisure and Abolition of Man as a college student, I didn't get as much out of them then as I do now rereading them, but my suspicion is that they were some of those seeds that got planted on the heart that made it so important for me to homeschool. They were also books that indicated the importance of finding a cohesive philosophy which would guide the book/curriculum decisions we would make. I'm just rambling here, but what struck me the most about Leisure was the very idea that study was actually a leisurely activity. All my life, no matter whether behind the Iron Curtain or here intellectual activity was always tied with economics. It was a "career." Leisure allowed me to gradually accept the fact that true intellectual activity goes hand in hand with contemplation. That made me feel guilty, when I understood that. It sounds awfully elitist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I am now up to page 20! :) I have read Susan C. Anthony's resources about philosophies of education since my first attempt, I would recommend that as Pre-reading, it makes some of the esoteric terms and ideas a bit more understandable: http://www.susancanthony.com/ws/philtrans.html http://www.susancanthony.com/ws/_pdf/phlhdn.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Thank you! Her breakdown of curricula in the PDF is interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I would say now that I am up to page 36 and have skimmed the rest that Norms is more focused on the why and philosophy of classical education and just touches on the how-to while TWTM is more focused on the how-to, touches on the why, and implies the philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meriwether Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Norms and Nobility has been in my cart for over a year. I just ordered it. I have read Leisure and The Abolition of Man, but I may read through them again before starting something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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