"The Duggars' 7 Tips for keeping your marriage sexy"

[LucyStoner]

Those as old as myself (and there are testamonies online) were screwed, because their credits did not transfer (that would have been prior to 2005...2005 is pretty recent in the grand scheme of things).

Yes, it is not a real college in the grand scheme of things. Being able to go to an accredited graduate school is important for a lot of professions. But honestly I assumed that either the students or the students' parents had religious and political reasons for sending them there. I mean, it wasn't until I was like 22 that they admitted they were wrong about segregation and interracial dating and I am pretty young. So I assume that people attending there before were either down with those policies or were really oblivious.

[LibraryLover]

 

starting out this way. What is John David doing? He's probably looking at Josh saying, "...not sure it's worth it to get married."

 

 

 

 

So I had to go check. I didn't realize that he and Jana just turned 24.  There is something comforting to me about their  being 'that old' and 'still' unmarried.  Good for them.

 

( btw, Josh's Twitter feed makes me a little queasy.)

[Retired]

So I had to go check. I didn't realize that he and Jana just turned 24.  There is something comforting to me about their  being 'that old' and 'still' unmarried.  Good for them.

 

( btw, Josh's Twitter feed makes me a little queasy.)

 

I think it has more to do with their courting selection.  The parents help pick the spouse.  They are involved all around.  I don't' think they will find that many like minded families.   I think the oldest Josh found a wife from a another state.  They had some type of long distant courtship.   I always thought they were waiting to match each kid with a Bates  family kid :laugh:

[FaithManor]

So I had to go check. I didn't realize that he and Jana just turned 24.  There is something comforting to me about their  being 'that old' and 'still' unmarried.  Good for them.

I don't find that very shocking at all. Since they are very strict about courtship. ATI is adamantly opposed to children marrying outside of ATI, and ATI congregations are dwindling in numbers as more and more has come out into the open about Bill Gothard and the organization, it is likely increasingly difficult to find someone who observes their faith strictly and is therefore an ideal candidate for marriage.

 

It is curious that in terms of another similar organization, Vision Forum, members who have left Boerne Christian Fellowship (Doug Phillip's church) acknowledge that weddings were very few and far between. The fathers in these extreme movements tend to have almost impossibly high standards for who is worthy to court their daughters and sons. This kind of strict adherence to both an extreme worldview and a very tight courtship model makes it difficult for young people to get to know one another or for dads to give up a child to a "lesser" individual. It is curious that the Duggars married very young and began producing children right away and now have daughters well past the prescribed marrying age of the organization which is generally 18-20 ideally in order to take optimal advantage of her fertility.

 

But, it's the same way with the Botkins. Those two girls, held up as the ultimate role models of patriarchial, perfect daughters, are pushing 30 and unmarried. I think once a man such as Jeffrey Botkin, Jim Bob, Scott Brown, etc. reach a level of notoriety as exemplary patriarchial fathers, their attempt to maintain these impossibly high standards could make it fairly hard to find mates for their kids. How many 18 somethings would really want the pressure associated within these movements of being the "in law" to these leading fathers? Ouch? That's a lot like being the boy who dared to date Chelsea Clinton, Amy Carter, Jenna Bush, etc. It requires you to be willing to live "in the light" so to speak. For the children of presidents, obviously it's the journalistic spotlight that is on them. For the Duggars, it's Jim Bob and his reality t.v. show, and Bill Gothard that look over your shoulder and examine your life with a microscope. That's a lot of intimidation.

 

Consider this, a proper ATI child is supposed to reach adulthood exhibiting 49 specific "character" traits as prescribed in the wisdom booklets. Fathers are not to yoke their children to other adults who fail to exhibit all 49 traits. How many of us have a list like this that we check box off when our kids are dating? I think it's probably fairly close to zero. We have an idea maybe whom we think would be a great mate, a good match for our kids' temperaments. We have a moral code that within our comfort zone, we'd maybe like to see NOT violated such as if my daughter had brought home a boyfriend who was a felon, it might have provoked a negative response in me for certain, LOL. We might have some concerns over some big character flaws such as laziness, controlling behavior, etc. But, Jim Bob, as a good ATI father, is expected to look at 49 specific criteria before even evaluating the person as a possible good match for his child. If he loves his kid and actually considers whether or not the now ideal candidate also exhibits areas of interest, passions, other personality traits that he might think are important to child C. such as good sense of humor, or likes camping, or whatever...how many young adults in his narrow world are going to make the cut?

 

On some level, it might be a minor miracle that the one boy is actually married.

 

On top of that, this movement, in particular, puts a real emphasis on an almost quasi, romantic relationship of the girls with their father. If you read some of the stuff from ATI about fathers adoring their daughters, wooing their daughters, their daughter pledging their chastity to their fathers in a wedding like ceremony until such time as he "surrenders her virginity" (Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard's own words NOT mine) to the boy of the father's choice, etc., then I can see it being a problem for the dad and even the girl to figure out how to sever that unnatural relationship and transfer her affections to another. It's really pretty creepy. The Duggar girls have attended the purity balls put on by Vision Forum and there is a ceremony complete with a ring, a white dress, and "vows" made while holding hands with their fathers, etc. It's rather disturbing from my point of view. I can see how this would then interfere with the natural process of a young lady growing up and attempting to differentiate from her father. As for the boys, since working and bringing home a paycheck to his family until his father allows him to marry is the norm in ATI families, for those that are lower income, encouraging the boy to court represents a loss of income if the son chooses to marry. That's a LOT of pressure. Obviously at $50,000 an episode, multiple speaking engagements per year with fees numbering in the thousands, the income rent for their land to the utility company, publications, Collegeplus endorsements, and the car dealership, Jim Bob doesn't need his sons to help the family financially. But, I think that the natural reliance of the father on the son may still be there emotionally and no matter what, the girl has to have this magic blend of first being raised in an ATI family, second belonging to a family willing to place the pressure on her to be in the public eye for being courted by a Duggar boy, exhibit all 49 of those character traits, be appealing in some way to the Duggar boy so he'll be interested in pursuing courtship, and be considered compatible by Jim Bob in order to be considered as a possible mate. Nah....it just sounds soooooooo much easier to be single, LOL!

 

Frankly, Michelle and JimBob were "lucky" to find each other, and curiously, they did so BEFORE joining ATI. I think that says a lot. If their own families had adhered to the programs protocols for courtship, they very likely would not have ever met. I mean, Michelle's cheerleader days alone would have put in the harlot list if Jim Bob's dad had been a good ATI/Vision Forum father.

[Mommyfaithe]

Your dh was wise and from what you were saying about your childhood it helps me understand how my parents fell into the mess. My dad and mom both came from a abuse and fell into this type of "Christianity" I guess they thought this would make a perfect "family" Its sad that it lead to another generation of dysfunction.

Funny thing is, when you think about it....I was being the submissive wife....teeheehee. He said RUN, I asked...how fast? Lol!

 

Another funny thing I see is the husbands seem rather hen pecked and almost apologetic of their wives vigor in backing Gothard. They seem submissive in name, yet really do wear the "pants" in the family....choosing when to let him make decisions, when he should lead, and insisting on him supporting a huge family financially because it is the proper Christian thing to do. They hold that husband "authority " over his head like the sword of Damocles! It is really screwed up!!!!

Especially when these strong women have meek husbands! Not all men WANT to have such a huge responsibility of driving the family and making every darn decision. Some actually value their wives opinions and NEED their assistance!

 

I would much rather have a partner than a boss. I just see this whole thing as setting up an idol on the altar and worshipping it.

 

As far as the s*x thing, I have no problem saying YES or NO or MAYBE depending on what the mood of the day is....and neither does my dh. No hard feelings! Marriage is about partnership. It should be fun. It should be safe. It needs to be kept real. Formulas don't work!!!

[LucyStoner]

Do we really know that the Duggar girls aren't able to make their own choices? I don't know enough about the family to know whether or not they have ever publicly discussed it.

 

I know that every time the Duggars are mentioned on this forum, some pretty serious accusations seem to start flying around, but outside this forum, I never read or hear about any of it.

 

I know that people have mentioned things about their church, but I don't know many people who follow the rules of their church exactly and to the letter, so maybe when they're at home with their family, the Duggars play a little fast and loose with some of their church's stricter teachings, as well.

 

Again, I have no clue, but it would seem that after all these years in the public eye, someone would have uncovered any extreme beliefs or practices and ratted the Duggars out to the media.

Gothard isn't a church. It runs so much deeper than that it is not even funny. I'm pretty friendly and have friends with all kinds of beliefs but I wouldn't even want my children around people who subscribed to ATI. I had a very awkward dinner not too long ago with a childhood friend who is big into it now and as much as I love her, I knew when she left with her husband that I'd probably never see her again. I don't want that kind of influence around my sons and it is nearly physically painful to see the path she is on.

[LibraryLover]

Whatever the reasons, I'm glad they haven't yet been married off.  If Jana or other women in this ministry don't marry until 30 or so, they might not have as many pregnancies.

 

Save the bladders.

[JumpyTheFrog]

We know three few people our age that grew up in ATI and two families that attend ATI events (I don't think they grew up in it). I think the three people may have left ATI, but ATI hasn't left them. One was extremely uncomfortable around a Vision Forum/Michael Pearl follower co-worker that listened to bands like Jars of Clay. He just couldn't get past the idea of a "rock beat," regardless of lyrics.

 

The other two people married each other and didn't consider any NFP or contraception under she had her 4th baby when her oldest was only three (no twins, either). They are now tweeting positive things about Doug Wilson, a man who writes that slavery wasn't that bad. This is the same Doug Wilson who arranged for a woman to marry a pedophile in his church and who will be encouraging them to be quiver full. They may have left ATI, but they still fall for all sorts of garbage peddled by wolves in sheep's clothing.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Whatever the reasons, I'm glad they haven't yet been married off.  If Jana or other women in this ministry don't marry until 30 or so, they might not have as many pregnancies.  Having 10 or 20  pregnancies is stress on the body. 

 

 

I hope that for women growing up like this, that if they don't escape, they at least don't marry until their mid-to-late 30s, especially if they don't really want a huge family. If they start having kids at 35, they will be unlikely to have more than 5-7, instead of being expected to have 12-20 if they marry at age 20.

[LucyStoner]

The rock beat thing is so hilarious though. When I was sitting in BLP the first clue I had that I wasn't going to like it was some lecture with little diagram showing husband over wife and wife over kids and kids over pets. The next was something about how it was only natural for each generation to be less moral than the previous but that we had gone off the rails in like the 18th century. The next was the rock beat thing. I was only 12 but I was so not giving up my music. No way, no how. My BLP seminar was taught live by Gothard himself, complete with a fraudulent saving of a demon possessed man who charged the stage to attack Gothard on cue. Snake oil salesman.

[FaithManor]

Yes HoppytheToad, and given that I know so much about the organization and what it teaches - tampons are of the devil because they are inserted into the body where only the husband's member or a baby should go - childbirth and pregnancy problems are caused by spiritual warfare - abstinence cures infertility - female problems are cured by adhering to the Gothard diet protocols - female virginity is the property of the father - female appearance is tightly controlled (this is not just in the area of modesty but the ATI newsletters also specify how a woman may and may not wear her hair and also state that blond, wavy/curly hair is optimal for being attractive, make-up color, etc.) - I can't get behind marital advice of any kind and certainly including anything related to human reproduction and controlling females, from the mouth of people who have been the homeschool conference spokespersons for the movement, received awards for being exemplary within the organization, and who have repeatedly stated publicly that the homeschool with the wisdom booklets and the ATI newsletters. For me, it crosses a personal boundary line regardless of whether or not the advice appears to be innocent and fairly non-controversial. It's just a brain bleach kind of thing for me, but I readily recognize that for those with no specific knowledge of the movement and it's teachings, the natural aversion to the article just isn't present.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't want to go back and try and find it in this monster thread but someone showed a link to Michelle Duggar in a wedding dress.  She's the married mom with all the kids, right?  Why was she trying on a wedding dress?  

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't find that very shocking at all. Since they are very strict about courtship. ATI is adamantly opposed to children marrying outside of ATI, and ATI congregations are dwindling in numbers as more and more has come out into the open about Bill Gothard and the organization, it is likely increasingly difficult to find someone who observes their faith strictly and is therefore an ideal candidate for marriage.

 

I find this a little worrisome though. Look at the recent VF allegations. These young women don't have a lot of options. When you don't feel like you have a lot of options, what happens? We see what happens with the young woman who isn't allowed normal dating or even courtship. She is led into a relationship with a married man she works for because that is the only male who is available to her. She doesn't believe she has any other choices.

[FaithManor]

The rock beat thing is so hilarious though. When I was sitting in BLP the first clue I had that I wasn't going to like it was some lecture with little diagram showing husband over wife and wife over kids and kids over pets. The next was something about how it was only natural for each generation to be less moral than the previous but that we had gone off the rails in like the 18th century. The next was the rock beat thing. I was only 12 but I was so not giving up my music. No way, no how. My BLP seminar was taught live by Gothard himself, complete with a fraudulent saving of a demon possessed man who charged the stage to attack Gothard on cue. Snake oil salesman.

Lucy, were you at the same one I was at??? Detroit, Joe Louis Arena, 1983? That's the one I was at complete with the stupid diagram, his favorite interns paraded on the platform in front him  to show off their ideal hair, ideal clothes, blah, blah, blah, the requisite demon possessed man set free, a fake healing (we know it was fake because there were pictures in the newspaper of the healed individual) and then a few months later when dad went out of state to a BLP in order to find out exactly what it was that my "Christian" school had attempted to brainwash the student body into, the same guy was being healed of the same ailment. Dad had seen the paper and just about went ballistic!

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't want to go back and try and find it in this monster thread but someone showed a link to Michelle Duggar in a wedding dress. She's the married mom with all the kids, right? Why was she trying on a wedding dress?

Vow renewal thing.

[LucyStoner]

Lucy, were you at the same one I was at??? Detroit, Joe Louis Arena, 1983? That's the one I was at complete with the stupid diagram, his favorite interns paraded on the platform in front him to show off their ideal hair, ideal clothes, blah, blah, blah, the requisite demon possessed man set free, a fake healing (we know it was fake because there were pictures in the newspaper of the healed individual) and then a few months later when dad went out of state to a BLP in order to find out exactly what it was that my "Christian" school had attempted to brainwash the student body into, the same guy was being healed of the same ailment. Dad had seen the paper and just about went ballistic!

No, Seattle Mercer Arena 1992. Apparently his schtick doesn't change much. It was a big deal that he was teaching it himself instead of if being piped in on video. We got to see the man himself. Oh, lucky us!!!

 

I was sitting there in pants all of the days to boot listening to him disparage slacks on women. I was such a tomboy. My friend was embarrassed that after the first day I didn't wear a skirt. Sorry, I'm not buying this and I wear what I wear. I long ago tossed my books but I had filled them with notes and comments of my own. It was so obviously fake and poorly thought out I was amazed that apparently some people in the arena were buying it. The demon healing thing was absurd. They said he was a homeless man who had come there to kill Gothard and that oh look, the demon possessed homeless man's dad is a Gothard guy who is here from out of town. Prayer ensues and minutes later the demon possessed man is thanking Gothard and thanking us and he is asking us to sing his favorite hymn with him. Ok, less than 5 minutes ago you had murder in your heart and were possessed by a demon and now you want us all to sing a hymn with you. Uh, ok. Not buying it.

 

My friend who I went with hasn't stayed a Gothard follower either. She's a devout Christian and married a bible school classmate and they have done a lot of mission work. She is my age, no children yet by choice and is getting a PhD in international affairs or something like that.

[FaithManor]

I find this a little worrisome though. Look at the recent VF allegations. These young women don't have a lot of options. When you don't feel like you have a lot of options, what happens? We see what happens with the young woman who isn't allowed normal dating or even courtship. She is led into a relationship with a married man she works for because that is the only male who is available to her. She doesn't believe she has any other choices.

Absolutely agreed, Mrs. Mungo. When any person has no choices that seem attainable to him or her, the situation is ripe for bad things to happen.

[MFG]

I think the concern for the stay at home daughters is that they are only prepared to marry young, run a household and have many children. If they do not marry young, the only thing they have to do is help at home and 'serve Daddy'. Then if the suitable men all want huge families, younger women are always coming along who have greater potential in that regard. Young women can age out very quickly in that competition. The prospect of becoming the maiden aunt whom life passed by is an active possibility.

[LucyStoner]

I think the idea of daughters "serving their dads" is profoundly creepy.

 

I guess I assumed that the older daughters weren't married because they were needed to help raise their brothers and sisters.

 

Though, I've often said that if born much sooner there is no way I would have married. It's just not in my makeup to be a wife like that. The Duggars are living in the past marriage and gender wise. Under the circumstances, I'd prefer to be a single woman and aunt than a married woman honestly.

 

I also think that we will see more Duggar marriages whenever they need a ratings boost. Call me cynical. You wouldn't be wrong. ;)

[FaithManor]

I don't want to go back and try and find it in this monster thread but someone showed a link to Michelle Duggar in a wedding dress.  She's the married mom with all the kids, right?  Why was she trying on a wedding dress?  

You can see the episode on Netflix "Say Yes to the Dress", in the first three seasons of the Kleinfeld's of New York show (can't remember the episode number but you should be able to wiki search for an episode guide), not the Atlanta show. She and Jim Bob showed up there with all of the kids they had at the time to shop for a gown for her for a renewal ceremony which was the brainchild of an ATI deacon who works as a writer of the show. It was 30 minutes of being regaled with their beliefs on modesty. I mean, Kleinfelds has many hundreds of dresses in stock of every style imaginable, and yes, they do have a section of "modest" gowns for conservative tastes many of which Michelle tried on, but since they didn't cover her up to her neck, a cape was made to go over the final selection.

 

I have to say, like a previous poster noted, the cape was really not attractive and it seemed kind of cheap looking given that Kleinfeld's reputation is known around the world! So, I suspect that Michelle and Jim Bob, having adhered to ATI dress principles for long, have no taste and that's what they ordered. Kleinfeld has a seriously awesome customer service policy and if you want something really nasty looking and unattractive for your wedding, they are more than happy to accommodate you, for a price, LOL.

 

I would be curious to see the out takes for that episode. Wedding gown shopping can be very tedious for the average bride and her bridesmaids/female relatives so I wonder how the kids really did for all of those hours sitting in Kleinfeld's waiting for her to come out in the next dress. I also found it rather incongruous that modesty is such a big deal to them, extreme modesty, and yet she went there to try on dresses that would have to be altered in order to meet their definition of modesty and did so with her children watching and the camera rolling.

[MFG]

I think the idea of daughters "serving their dads" is profoundly creepy.

No doubt.

I guess I assumed that the older daughters weren't married because they were needed to help raise their brothers and sisters.

 

I think that is the case but I am not at all sure that it is their choice.

[LibraryLover]

I think the concern for the stay at home daughters is that they are only prepared to marry young, run a household and have many children. If they do not marry young, the only thing they have to do is help at home and 'serve Daddy'. Then if the suitable men all want huge families, younger women are always coming along who have greater potential in that regard. Young women can age out very quickly in that competition. The prospect of becoming the maiden aunt whom life passed by is an active possibility.

 

That part is just sickening.

 

The maiden aunt part might be better for those women who don't want to cut ties with their family but might not want to marry a man and have a passel of kids.

[FaithManor]

I think the concern for the stay at home daughters is that they are only prepared to marry young, run a household and have many children. If they do not marry young, the only thing they have to do is help at home and 'serve Daddy'. Then if the suitable men all want huge families, younger women are always coming along who have greater potential in that regard. Young women can age out very quickly in that competition. The prospect of becoming the maiden aunt whom life passed by is an active possibility.

This is very, very true. The whole movement wraps up a woman's worth in her fertility. The marriage's worth is based on fertility. Therefore, like an evolutionary, biological certainty, the spoils go to the younger women always. So if the match is not made by the early-20's, I think maidenhood could very well be a given because if the only boy that fits the criteria is one raised to believe his manly self-worth is exhibited in fathering many children, then he has a vested interest in only marrying a woman well away from peri-menopause with lots of years available to him as a childbearer.

 

 

The bottom line for the Botkin girls, one of whom I believe made it to age 30 this year, is that their biological clocks are ticking and they are no longer prime candidates for any of the young men in the movement. If they do not rebel against their fathers, they are doomed to remain under him until he passes away. What I wonder about is what happens to them when they no longer have him as their "covering"? Do they become the property of their brother? What happens to the widows? Their brother is married so if they are required to live with him, what will that be like? Will his wife resent the constant presence of the "perfect" girls of the movement, or will she welcome the extra help? My guess is that the boy would be responsible for his mother as they adhere to a lot of Levitical rules. But what happens to the ATI, Vision Forum mother who has only daughters? Is there some rule about sons-in-laws having to take on the MOB? What if daddy never married off any of the daughters before his demise? Then there are no sons in laws. Hmmmm...serious conundrums here.

[FaithManor]

No, Seattle Mercer Arena 1992. Apparently his schtick doesn't change much. It was a big deal that he was teaching it himself instead of if being piped in on video. We got to see the man himself. Oh, lucky us!!!

 

I was sitting there in pants all of the days to boot listening to him disparage slacks on women. I was such a tomboy. My friend was embarrassed that after the first day I didn't wear a skirt. Sorry, I'm not buying this and I wear what I wear. I long ago tossed my books but I had filled them with notes and comments of my own. It was so obviously fake and poorly thought out I was amazed that apparently some people in the arena were buying it. The demon healing thing was absurd. They said he was a homeless man who had come there to kill Gothard and that oh look, the demon possessed homeless man's dad is a Gothard guy who is here from out of town. Prayer ensues and minutes later the demon possessed man is thanking Gothard and thanking us and he is asking us to sing his favorite hymn with him. Ok, less than 5 minutes ago you had murder in your heart and were possessed by a demon and now you want us all to sing a hymn with you. Uh, ok. Not buying it.

 

My friend who I went with hasn't stayed a Gothard follower either. She's a devout Christian and married a bible school classmate and they have done a lot of mission work. She is my age, no children yet by choice and is getting a PhD in international affairs or something like that.

I am glad to hear that you rebelled, you pant wearer you! LOL

 

I did my own rebelling. I sneaked out of the hotel and managed to wear blue eye shadow for most of the day without the chaperones noticing. I had it on THICK! Got in trouble when they finally noticed (the group was really, really large so for most of the day it was easy to go unnoticed by the adults)...sentenced to six hours on my knees at the altar the first day back at school, but I guess in my heart, it was worth it...just preserving myself emotionally, intellectually.

 

Yah, that demon thing was the STUPIDEST display on stage that I have ever seen in my life, and I have been to some fairly awful theater productions over the years. I know middle school groups that can do better than that! Yet, people bought it. I am amazed sometimes at how many people are willing to drink the kool aid.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You can see the episode on Netflix "Say Yes to the Dress", in the first three seasons of the Kleinfeld's of New York show (can't remember the episode number but you should be able to wiki search for an episode guide), not the Atlanta show. She and Jim Bob showed up there with all of the kids they had at the time to shop for a gown for her for a renewal ceremony which was the brainchild of an ATI deacon who works as a writer of the show. It was 30 minutes of being regaled with their beliefs on modesty. I mean, Kleinfelds has many hundreds of dresses in stock of every style imaginable, and yes, they do have a section of "modest" gowns for conservative tastes many of which Michelle tried on, but since they didn't cover her up to her neck, a cape was made to go over the final selection.

 

 

 

 

LOL.  I've never seen the show and have no desire to see the show either.  I was just curious in the same way I pick up an episode of People magazine at the doctor's office to see the celebrity gossip.  I don't really care but I find it mildly interesting in a sociological sort of way.  

[LucyStoner]

My theory with the demon possessed thing is that he doesn't want anyone in IBLP or ATI who thinks for themselves enough to see it for what it is. It's like a little gullibility pre-screening. You have to be really, really deperate to find something if you see that and believe it. Cue the theme of the Twilight Zone.

[LucyStoner]

We lived close to Mercer Arena so my friend's mom picked me up and dropped us off alone with lunch money the first 2-3 days. Honestly the main attraction was eating lunch by ourselves everyday at the Seattle Center House. I really liked me some Frankfurter and Seattle Fudge Company. ;) the last night and day our parents came along too. I think it was just my mom who came, not my dad and my mom was like "WTH did we just allow you to come to?!" My friends' parents had paid for me to go with their daughter in part so she wouldn't be alone and in part because they were trying to help me.

[Catwoman]

Did you grow up within a strong belief system? If not, it's hard to appreciate how difficult it is to break free of that system. If there is no physical coercion, there is mental coercion that comes from within.

I think there is a difference between coming from a strong belief system and coming from a fanatical belief system. I think we are mainly talking about extremism here.

[Catwoman]

Gothard isn't a church. It runs so much deeper than that it is not even funny. I'm pretty friendly and have friends with all kinds of beliefs but I wouldn't even want my children around people who subscribed to ATI. I had a very awkward dinner not too long ago with a childhood friend who is big into it now and as much as I love her, I knew when she left with her husband that I'd probably never see her again. I don't want that kind of influence around my sons and it is nearly physically painful to see the path she is on.

It sounds incredibly creepy.

 

I was just saying that most people wouldn't be influenced by the Duggars' beliefs, whatever they happen to be, because what little of their show I have seen hasn't been heavy-handed or mentioned any specifics about their beliefs. I don't think there are that many people who would start considering Gothardism as a result of watching the Duggars on TV. I guess maybe it's a regional thing or something, because Gothard isn't something anyone talks about where we live, and I seriously doubt that the lifestyle is at all common here.

 

Whatever the case, it would seem that a person would have to be incredibly desperate if they started basing their lifestyle and religious beliefs on what they see in a reality television show.

[HRAAB]

I noticed in the article at Today.com there is a picture of Michelle in pants - striped pants even.  Their beliefs seem to have evolved over the years.  Michelle must have had much more freedom that her dds have.  

[FaithManor]

It sounds incredibly creepy.

 

I was just saying that most people wouldn't be influenced by the Duggars' beliefs, whatever they happen to be, because what little of their show I have seen hasn't been heavy-handed or mentioned any specifics about their beliefs. I don't think there are that many people who would start considering Gothardism as a result of watching the Duggars on TV. I guess maybe it's a regional thing or something, because Gothard isn't something anyone talks about where we live, and I seriously doubt that the lifestyle is at all common here.

It was way more popular during the 70's and 80's than it is now and pretty much always more in the Midwest and deep south than on the coasts. His reputation has taken a rightful beating over multiple issues so he is really falling out of favor now. That makes it even more crazy that some people still follow him.

 

That said, you are probably right that people who watch the show may not be unduly influenced by him. The vast majority of the people watching are probably not that vulnerable. It's the few that are looking for a formula for family success with the veneer of "Christianity" over it that would be at risk...people who think that they too could be the perfect family and attain heaven, and have their marital problems solved, and have nicely behaved children, and blah...that might look at the Duggars and think, "Let's find out how to be like that" who will be lead to ATI and Vision Forum if they do their research. Those rare ones are the ones at risk. But, that's the way it is with any kind of show like this. There are always handfuls of at risk people who are unhealthy enough to be very badly influenced by media. They are in the minority.

[LucyStoner]

I noticed in the article at Today.com there is a picture of Michelle in pants - striped pants even. Their beliefs seem to have evolved over the years. Michelle must have had much more freedom that her dds have.

Yes. They used birth control before and after their first son was born. Then she had a miscarriage and they blamed it on the birth control and they started to follow the teachings of Gothard. I remember this from an article I read before they even had a TV show. It was when they had about 12 or so kids. They've been working on marketing their large family for a long time.

[LucyStoner]

It sounds incredibly creepy.

 

I was just saying that most people wouldn't be influenced by the Duggars' beliefs, whatever they happen to be, because what little of their show I have seen hasn't been heavy-handed or mentioned any specifics about their beliefs. I don't think there are that many people who would start considering Gothardism as a result of watching the Duggars on TV. I guess maybe it's a regional thing or something, because Gothard isn't something anyone talks about where we live, and I seriously doubt that the lifestyle is at all common here.

 

Whatever the case, it would seem that a person would have to be incredibly desperate if they started basing their lifestyle and religious beliefs on what they see in a reality television show.

I don't think anyone's getting their religious views from the show. I do think that they are portrayed as being much more palatable than they actually are. But there is no such thing as Gothard Lite. By promoting his stuff and maintaining an affiliation with him, their judgement is highly suspect. Gothard is an unmarried man who has been accused of sexual wrongdoing many times. His followers attack the girls and defend him. They have camps for errant wives (errant including those with PPD). Anyone who doesn't renounce that isn't just a person with some out there or very conservative views.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2014 by Moderator
Edited to remove politics...in keeping with board policy

[FaithManor]

nm

 

 

Edited February 17, 2014 by Moderator
Let's not move over into politics, please.

[LucyStoner]

Thank you for another reason to never, ever go to Hobby Lobby.

[Mimm]

This is very, very true. The whole movement wraps up a woman's worth in her fertility. The marriage's worth is based on fertility. Therefore, like an evolutionary, biological certainty, the spoils go to the younger women always. So if the match is not made by the early-20's, I think maidenhood could very well be a given because if the only boy that fits the criteria is one raised to believe his manly self-worth is exhibited in fathering many children, then he has a vested interest in only marrying a woman well away from peri-menopause with lots of years available to him as a childbearer.

 

 

The bottom line for the Botkin girls, one of whom I believe made it to age 30 this year, is that their biological clocks are ticking and they are no longer prime candidates for any of the young men in the movement. If they do not rebel against their fathers, they are doomed to remain under him until he passes away. What I wonder about is what happens to them when they no longer have him as their "covering"? Do they become the property of their brother? What happens to the widows? Their brother is married so if they are required to live with him, what will that be like? Will his wife resent the constant presence of the "perfect" girls of the movement, or will she welcome the extra help? My guess is that the boy would be responsible for his mother as they adhere to a lot of Levitical rules. But what happens to the ATI, Vision Forum mother who has only daughters? Is there some rule about sons-in-laws having to take on the MOB? What if daddy never married off any of the daughters before his demise? Then there are no sons in laws. Hmmmm...serious conundrums here.

 

Even apart from the whole question of what they'll do with their lives, what if these girls want to have children? Being a mother is very fulfilling and frequently a very strong urge a woman gets as she heads into her 30s. When you're in a culture that idolizes fertility and elevates motherhood above singlehood, how much more must these girls long to be a mother? Every year that passes sees that door closing just a little more for them. The whole system is flawed.

 

In answer to one of the questions above, I think in ATI families, there is always a "head of the family" and that would be the oldest male. If dad dies, oldest son will take over. Sisters would be "under his protection", I think. I'm not sure what this means for the widowed mother.

[*Lulu*]

I know that people on this board are, over all, live and let live. So the lack of Duggar-love sometimes seems super mean spirited and judge-y in its own right.

 

Here is thing about the views that the Duggar's ascribe to, not the cleaned up-fit for tv-palatable enough for mainstream views, but the core values that you find whenever you peel the vaneer back:

 

 

They are insidious. They are not of God. They damage relationships and lives when they are unchallenged.

 

 

Look-

 

I grew up in church. (Not a super liberal denom, but very liberal within that particular denomination.)

 

I am not a sheeple. (The fact that we are not homeschooling for religious reasons in an area where that is the primary reason people do......and where homeschooling is WAY outside the norm speaks to that.)

 

I tend to be super cynical about people and their motivations.

 

DH and I ended up entangled in Gothard-esque teaching for awhile. The abuse in my past set up a situation where we were in over our heads and desperate. Desperation will lead you down some strange paths.....no matter how smart and well grounded you are.

 

 

I don't give a tinker's dam what the Duggars do. And, I don't think people will flock to ATI just based on their show. I do think that there is a danger in allowing the soft peddling of the ATI principles to go unremarked upon.

 

If the emperor likes to walk around in the buff, more power to him. As long as there are people in the crowd reminding everyone that he is, in fact, stark naked.

[LucyStoner]

Oh crap. I went once. I didn't know. I bought a game. Think I should back over it with my car?

Well, if you go to BLP they will tell you to destroy your children's cabbage patch kids so we can't sink to their level, LOL.

[*Lulu*]

Well, if you go to BLP they will tell you to destroy your children's cabbage patch kids so we can't sink to their level, LOL.

Exactly.

 

Find a way to turn the game into a gambling proposition.

 

Reward the winner with a chapter of Harry Potter.

 

Listen to secular music while you play.

 

Donate an equal amount of money to some organization that they would appose......like PFLAG

[zoobie]

Exactly.

 

Find a way to turn the game into a gambling proposition.

 

Reward the winner with a chapter of Harry Potter.

 

Listen to secular music while you play.

 

Donate an equal amount of money to some organization that they would appose......like PFLAG

Ha! I was going to say Planned Parenthood. ;)

[*Lulu*]

Ha! I was going to say Planned Parenthood. ;)

Oh....that one is good too!

[Aelwydd]

I don't know a thing about Jill Duggar, but I'm wondering why she would use College Plus at all if she wasn't planning to try to earn a college degree.

She hadn't yet reached the milestone of realizing the futility of her dreams? lol. It must be something of a traditional coming-of-age for them. Turn 18, express hopes for the future, only to get sidelined into the family business.

 

Not the most terrible of fates, but, alas, it makes for a really predictable ending to the show.

[foxbridgeacademy]

NM

[*Lulu*]

Thank you for another reason to never, ever go to Hobby Lobby.

This makes me sad.....they are the only decent fabric store here.

[FaithManor]

If you want to  have your brain bent even more, read the book "A Matter of Basic Principles" in which you will find quotes from Gothard (documented and footnotes) in which he preached through his health newsletters that breast cancer  is due to hating one's mother.

 

Schizophrenia is the result of being irresponsible.

 

Not circumcizing your son will cause him to be promiscuous.

 

He's quite the medicine man!

 

 

 

 

[Catwoman]

If you want to have your brain bent even more, read the book "A Matter of Basic Principles" in which you will find quotes from Got hard (documented and footnotes) in which he preached through his health newsletters that breast cancer is due to hating one's mother.

 

Schizophrenia is the result of being irresponsible.

 

Not circumcizing your son will cause him to be promiscuous.

 

He's quite the medicine man!

Apparently, he's also quite the salesman. He sounds like a total wackadoodle, yet he's able to get people to go along with his brand of crazy.

 

People like that are scary and dangerous, because they are excellent con artists and know how to prey upon the weak, the lonely, and the depressed.

[mommaduck]

If you want to  have your brain bent even more, read the book "A Matter of Basic Principles" in which you will find quotes from Got hard (documented and footnotes) in which he preached through his health newsletters that breast cancer  is due to hating one's mother.

 

Schizophrenia is the result of being irresponsible.

 

Not circumcizing your son will cause him to be promiscuous.

 

He's quite the medicine man!

I have the book. Might have to pull out some quotes. The guy is a nutjob.

[Mimm]

I have the book. Might have to pull out some quotes. The guy is a nutjob.

 

 

Oh do this. I'm very curious and prefer to condemn people based on their own words.

[Mommyfaithe]

I have the book. Might have to pull out some quotes. The guy is a nutjob.

Please post these!!

[Upennmama]

I think it really does depend on the marriage, especially if one person in the marriage has endured some trauma. However, I think both partners in a marriage should be sensitive to each other's needs. and I think that, stereotype or not, generally men need physical intimacy to feel loved and cherished and "known" and women need intimacy and time and talking (etc) to feel loved. Each needs their needs met and each needs to meet the other's needs. I think it does seem unkind to deny your spouse physical release and intimacy for casual reasons. I think I've said no a few times, maybe 3-4 over 10+ years of marriage, and it was no problem. I certainly have never told my husband I had a "no saying no" policy, and he's never asked me to. As someone else said, it's not like he demands sex and I sadly agree, it's more like he uh... dips a toe in the water and I can choose to reciprocate or not. My husband has never pushed or cajoled me once. Sometimes I will tell him I'm exhausted and really not into it, and he's welcome to convince me, or just sort of go for it, knowing I'm half asleep. But the vast majority of the time I actually love it and have a great time. I do have a high drive, but I agree that it's like exercise- get into a habit of it and do it regularly and you like it more. 

 

I do expect my husband to meet my needs, generally, and I'd be hurt if I wanted to talk to him about a problem but he rebuffed me and said he was too tired to talk, or too tired to help me clean up the living room, or too tired to ________ on a regular basis. Of course we all have extenuating circumstances, but regularly rejecting your spouse's needs (physical, emotional, etc) seems like crappy spouse behavior.