Because many of us think the worst of Woody Allen...

[WishboneDawn]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html

 

I have spent 20 years thinking the worst of him. Here's a great article that's also a good correction for me.

It contains a lot of information most of us are missing and most importantly, makes it clear why 1) the personal lives of stars are not or entertainment and 2) neutrality, rather then hobbling together some opinion, is the correct position to take.

[Cindy in FL.]

Very informative and interesting article. Thanks for sharing it!

[mytwomonkeys]

It does not change my opinion. He was married and had an affair with his wife's daughter. He did not meet her as an adult but a minor. He may not be the adopted father, but his wife was the girl's mother. Not to mention she is the sibling to his other children. The author ensues ignorance on the part of people standing in judgement. I disagree. If you are that public and do something of that magnitude, people are going to think you're a jerk.

[RoughCollie]

It does not change my opinion. He was married and had an affair with his wife's daughter. He did not meet her as an adult but a minor.

 

Did you read the article?  Woody Allen was never married to anyone during his 12 year relationship with Mia Farrow, including Mia Farrow.  Further, the couple did not live together.

[mytwomonkeys]

Did you read the article? Woody Allen was never married to anyone during his 12 year relationship with Mia Farrow, including Mia Farrow. Further, the couple did not live together.

His behavior was not acceptable. Not on any account, no matter how you slice it and dice it to me. He was in a committed relationship and fell in love with the woman's daughter, sibling to his children. That isn't okay.

 

I don't think Mia Farrow has handled it beautifully either for that matter.

[Kathryn]

It does not change my opinion. He was married and had an affair with his wife's daughter. He did not meet her as an adult but a minor. He may not be the adopted father, but his wife was the girl's mother. Not to mention she is the sibling to his other children. The author ensues ignorance on the part of people standing in judgement. I disagree. If you are that public and do something of that magnitude, people are going to think you're a jerk.

They were not married. According to the article, he never even spent a single night at her house (they never lived together).

 

I'm assuming you didn't actually read the article, so it obviously didn't change your opinion.

[mytwomonkeys]

They were not married. According to the article, he never even spent a single night at her house (they never lived together).

 

I'm assuming you didn't actually read the article, so it obviously didn't change your opinion.

I did read it. I realize they weren't married, that was a typo on my part. What I'm saying clearly is I still think he was wrong to behave that way. Hands down.

[WishboneDawn]

His behavior was not acceptable. Not on any account, no matter how you slice it and dice it to me. He was in a committed relationship and fell in love with the woman's daughter, sibling to his children. That isn't okay.

 

I don't think Mia Farrow has handled it beautifully either for that matter.

The author is not asking people to switch sides. In fact, he acknowledges that people may still have an issue with Woody Allen's relationship with Soon-Yi.

 

His point is that the vast majority of us do not know the facts of the case and that, even after he's cleared up a great deal of the facts, we still don't know the truth so to be continue carrying around opinions informed by a passive attention to entertainment media is probably not the responsible thing to do.

 

If you read it you'll probably discover it will change your opinion. It might not make you think anything good of Woody Allen but it might make you pas judgement on what, to the best of the author's knowledge and yours, really happened rather then the vague "facts" that have been circulating for two decades.

 

Or more importantly decide that it is none of your, or our, business and decide no opinion is required.

 

That actually seems to me to be the braver choice in a time where everybody seems to have the rightto, and duty to have, a firm opinion on everything regardless of how ill informed they are.

[mytwomonkeys]

Or more importantly decide that it is none of your, or our, business and decide no opinion is required.

 

 

Well you shared an article in a public forum -- and although I would have never brought up Woody Allen here or anywhere ever, I gave my opinion because of you. So to imply it's none of my, or "our" business - seems ironic.

[Kathryn]

Well, I'll admit to the passive attention to entertainment media on this topic and my impression of what happened was very different than what I read here. I still find the way the current marriage began kind of creepy, but it's a far cry from that to the daddy creeping into a little girl's bed at night image that had been painted of him in my mind.

[WishboneDawn]

Well you shared an article in a public forum -- and although I would have never brought up Woody Allen here or anywhere ever, I gave my opinion because of you. So to imply its none of mine, or "our" business - seems ironic.

Our a starter for a discussion on how we talk about celebrities, get our information, form opinions rather then simply, "did he do it?" or, "is he a cad?"

 

The article raises bigger issues then what Woody did.

[mytwomonkeys]

Well, I'll admit to the passive attention to entertainment media on this topic and my impression of what happened was very different than what I read here. I still find the way the current marriage began kind of creepy, but it's a far cry from that to the daddy creeping into a little girl's bed at night image that had been painted of him in my mind.

But his other daughter says she was molested by him. And then Mia-- is she this upset because she cannot get past the betrayal - or is it because he molested one daughter and married the other? Who knows. The whole thing has a zillion details that I don't know or care about.

 

But when asked whether the actual "facts" change my mind about how it all unfolded, my answer is not really. It's like a Jerry Springer episode. My heart breaks for the kids - although they are adults now, they are definitely messed up from all of it. The fact that their mom is still carrying deep wounds doesn't help.

 

But I will agree that Woody Allen has made note-worthy contributions to the entertainment industry. And I will add most people in Hollywood have crazy lives. I don't feel he is an extreme case, just one that received a lot of media.

[skirch]

This was a good read, thanks. I think most of that has been brought up in the past but people seem to latch on to the scandals. It was still a crummy thing for him to do.

 

I love all the speculation that Ronan Farrow *may* be Sinatra's son? Have y'all seen pics of him? He is TOTALLY Sinatra's son.

[mytwomonkeys]

Our a starter for a discussion on how we talk about celebrities, get our information, form opinions rather then simply, "did he do it?" or, "is he a cad?"

 

The article raises bigger issues then what Woody did.

Well, I'm glad that the article had an impact on you, as I'm sure it will for many. I'm not trying to be difficult. The thread title reads "because many of us think the worst of Woody Allen..." And I'm not finding my opinion heavily changed. That's all.

[mytwomonkeys]

This was a good read, thanks. I think most of that has been brought up in the past but people seem to latch on to the scandals. It was still a crummy thing for him to do.

 

I love all the speculation that Ronan Farrow *may* be Sinatra's son? Have y'all seen pics of him? He is TOTALLY Sinatra's son.

Yes!!! No doubt that man belongs to Frank!!! He's a cutie!!

[WishboneDawn]

Well, I'm glad that the article had an impact on you, as I'm sure it will for many. I'm not trying to be difficult. The thread title reads "because many of us think the worst of Woody Allen..." And I'm not finding my opinion heavily changed. That's all.

Fair enough. :)

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree that people make assumptions all the time, not just with celebrities by the way, based on very little information.  This, sadly, is human nature.   Fighting against that is an admirable task.  The article is an interesting one.  

 

However, it does not change my opinion of Woody Allen's actions.  If I were dating someone, and that someone seduced my underage daughter behind my back, I guarantee you I would be hurt, bitter, angry and terribly upset for me but mainly for my impressionable daughter.  It does not matter that they were not married.  It does not matter that they never lived together.  He was irresponsible and unethical in his actions.  I do not get this information from media but from Mia Farrow's auto-biography and other primary resources, including legal documents showing Wood Allen's reaction during trial.  He genuinely does not understand the relationship of a parent with a child.  He seems to really believe that because the daughter was adopted, the mother/daughter relationship is invalid.  He is a talented man.  That does not mean he acted ethically.

 

And personally, I agree that they are both odd, and I would have no interest in having either in my home or near my family.

[Kathryn]

But his other daughter says she was molested by him. And then Mia-- is she this upset because she cannot get past the betrayal - or is it because he molested one daughter and married the other? Who knows. The whole thing has a zillion details that I don't know or care about.

 

.

I really don't care what the other daughter says. From the description I just read of the investigation and the "evidence," it sounds like she was a young child being manipulated. I was about that age when something very similar happened to me: an adult whom I wanted to please coerced me into saying I was abused by another adult in my life. I know how easily that can happen.

 

I'm not saying the man's a saint, but I also think that Mia Farrow sounds like an incredibly disturbed woman.

 

And when it comes down to it, as OP noted, it's really none of my business given that law enforcement determined no crime to have been committed and I don't know these people personally.

[Kathryn]

I agree that people make assumptions all the time, not just with celebrities by the way, based on very little information. This, sadly, is human nature. Fighting against that is an admirable task. The article is an interesting one.

 

However, it does not change my opinion of Woody Allen's actions. If I were dating someone, and that someone seduced my underage daughter behind my back, I guarantee you I would be hurt, bitter, angry and terribly upset for me but mainly for my impressionable daughter. It does not matter that they were not married. It does not matter that they never lived together. He was irresponsible and unethical in his actions. I do not get this information from media but from Mia Farrow's auto-biography and other primary resources, including legal documents showing Wood Allen's reaction during trial. He genuinely does not understand the relationship of a parent with a child. He seems to really believe that because the daughter was adopted, the mother/daughter relationship is invalid. He is a talented man. That does not mean he acted ethically.

Do you have some evidence that she was underaged? What I just read said she was not.

[mytwomonkeys]

I really don't care what the other daughter says. From the description I just read of the investigation and the "evidence," it sounds like she was a young child being manipulated. I was about that age when something very similar happened to me: an adult whom I wanted to please coerced me into saying I was abused by another adult in my life. I know how easily that can happen.

 

I'm not saying the man's a saint, but I also think that Mia Farrow sounds like an incredibly disturbed woman.

 

And when it comes down to it, as OP noted, it's really none of my business given that law enforcement determined no crime to have been committed and I don't know these people personally.

Agreed. It's a big hot mess. Mia videotaped her daughter asking her to share what her daddy did to her. Then she sent it to the news stations. Talk about messed up!! I'm not on her side. I'm not on his side. This isn't a passionate discussion for me. Just saying I think they are all wacked, and the poor kids are messed up because of it. I didn't read the article and feel sorry for Woody Allen.

[Danestress]

I am a long time Woody Allen fanatic. I have watched pretty much everything he had made - some movies over and over again. I have not read a huge amount about his personal life, but there was nothing in that article that was new to me. I was clear on the facts.

 

I do think we are entitled to opinions about personal behavior, in a general way. I don't think we are all entitled to express them to people involved, but talking about moral choices and discussing them seems like part of civilization.

 

Woody Allen had a son. His son had a sister. Ok. An adopted sister. If you don't think being adopted makes someone a 'real' sister, it may not bother you that he married his son's sister. I think this is actually worth talking about. Are adopted children the same as bio children? Can you marry your lover's adopted child but not her bio child? I mean morally? Biologically it's all safe and fine. Can you marry your son's adopted sister but not his bio sister? Or would that be ok? I think these are good questions. And of course the suggestion that having your sister marry your Dad is not a big deal if it turns out your dad isn't you bio dad ... What does that say? That kids should turn their hearts off if the biology isn't there?

 

As for the molestation charges, I think his daughter, grown now, has pretty much told the same story for years. She will live out her life under allegations of making those stories up. She has grown up in many people's eyes as a liar. And Mr Allen will also always live under suspicion too. I can't know the truth, but I think discussing these situations is kind of important.

 

Apart from these things, I think the most interesting debate is just about the tension between what an individual wants vs what society/family expects and demands. Woody Allen lives according to 'what the heart wants.' And his long, seemingly happy marriage to Soon-Yi is pretty good evidence that his heart really knew what it wanted. Some of the best writing in the world addresses these issues - what is the price of living according to one's own desires? What is the price of killing desire in order to gain approval or please others? Good material for the right author. I wish Edith Wharton could write it.

[OneStepAtATime]

Do you have some evidence that she was underaged? What I just read said she was not.

Yes, he took nude photos of Mia's daughter and almost certainly started a relationship with her when she was underage.  If you only judge based on one article, then media is still influencing without comprehensive facts.  Read Mia Farrow's autobiography.  It is really quite interesting, irregardless of Wood Allen and their relationship; it covers her amazing dedication to helping her autistic son (which is one of the reasons I bought the book) and her life growing up in Hollywood (which is the other reason since movie industry history interests me somewhat), etc.  It really is an interesting read, and is NOT about her relationship with Woody Allen, although it is covered in the book. There are other sources, too.  Do a search.  

 

The other option, of course, is to just ignore these people.

[Kathryn]

I am a long time Woody Allen fanatic. I have watched pretty much everything he had made - some movies over and over again. I have not read a huge amount about his personal life, but there was nothing in that article that was new to me. I was clear on the facts.

 

I do think we are entitled to opinions about personal behavior, in a general way. I don't think we are all entitled to express them to people involved, but talking about moral choices and discussing them seems like part of civilization.

 

Woody Allen had a son. His son had a sister. Ok. An adopted sister. If you don't think being adopted makes someone a 'real' sister, it may not bother you that he married his son's sister. I think this is actually worth talking about. Are adopted children the same as bio children? Can you marry your lover's adopted child but not her bio child? I mean morally? Biologically it's all safe and fine. Can you marry your son's adopted sister but not his bio sister? Or would that be ok? I think these are good questions. And of course the suggestion that having your sister marry your Dad is not a big deal if it turns out your dad isn't you bio dad ... What does that say? That kids should turn their hearts off if the biology isn't there?

 

As for the molestation charges, I think his daughter, grown now, has pretty much told the same story for years. She will live out her life under allegations of making those stories up. She has grown up in many people's eyes as a liar. And Mr Allen will also always live under suspicion too. I can't know the truth, but I think discussing these situations is kind of important.

 

Apart from these things, I think the most interesting debate is just about the tension between what an individual wants vs what society/family expects and demands. Woody Allen lives according to 'what the heart wants.' And his long, seemingly happy marriage to Soon-Yi is pretty good evidence that his heart really knew what it wanted. Some of the best writing in the world addresses these issues - what is the price of living according to one's own desires? What is the price of killing desire in order to gain approval or please others? Good material for the right author. I wish Edith Wharton could write it.

I agree it's interesting fodder for ruminating upon. I think what trips a lot of people up is thinking about relationships in "normal" terms. It seems to me that none of these people had what I would consider normal relationships. Allen and Farrow never cohabitated. He never lived with his lover or his adopted children. Farrow was apparently cheating on him the entire time. It seems pretty clear that he never had a biological child. I can't imagine what kind of relationship he had with his children with her (the one who was apparently Sinatra's and the two adopted ones), not to mention her various other children, who I'm sure spent time with their father as well. I can't imagine that he was ever anything approaching a father figure to her other children considering they had an actual father and Allen never lived with them. So, it's really hard for me to picture the dynamics of this whole mess to begin with in order to adequately judge just how creepy his getting with Farrow's adopted daughter really was. It does seem relevant though, that he's been with her, and in a much more "normal" fashion, much longer than he was with Farrow.

[Kathryn]

Yes, he took nude photos of Mia's daughter and almost certainly started a relationship with her when she was underage. If you only judge based on one article, then media is still influencing without comprehensive facts. Read Mia Farrow's autobiography. It is really quite interesting, irregardless of Wood Allen and their relationship; it covers her amazing dedication to helping her autistic son (which is one of the reasons I bought the book) and her life growing up in Hollywood (which is the other reason since movie industry history interests me somewhat), etc. It really is an interesting read, and is NOT about her relationship with Woody Allen, although it is covered in the book. There are other sources, too. Do a search.

 

The other option, of course, is to just ignore these people.

Um, I did a search. I still see no evidence that their relationship began or was physical while she was underaged.

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree it's interesting fodder for ruminating upon. I think what trips a lot of people up is thinking about relationships in "normal" terms. It seems to me that none of these people had what I would consider normal relationships. Allen and Farrow never cohabitated. He never lived with his lover or his adopted children. Farrow was apparently cheating on him the entire time. It seems pretty clear that he never had a biological child. I can't imagine what kind of relationship he had with his children with her (the one who was apparently Sinatra's and the two adopted ones), not to mention her various other children, who I'm sure spent time with their father as well. I can't imagine that he was ever anything approaching a father figure to her other children considering they had an actual father and Allen never lived with them. So, it's really hard for me to picture the dynamics of this whole mess to begin with in order to adequately judge just how creepy his getting with Farrow's adopted daughter really was. It does seem relevant though, that he's been with her, and in a much more "normal" fashion, much longer than he was with Farrow.

The above actually does speak to me.  I don't think either Mia Farrow or Woody Allen really do have a clue what a normal situation is.  And his relationship with the daughter seems far more stable than a lot of Hollywood relationships.  He is still not a terribly ethical man, IMHO, and I would not want any of them to have influence over my family.  Thankfully, that is not an issue.  :)

[Joanne]

The author's list of myths does not impress me. In fact I find it somewhat insulting and dismissive of women. The author is right; I think it is despicable and deplorable for a 55 year old man to pursue his attraction to his long term girlfriend's 19 year old daughter. To me, honor and integrity and relationship health dictate you do NOT act on those feelings if they exist - even if they seem to be reciprocated and mutual.

 

A 19 year old can't give consent - not real consent - in those circumstances. The age difference and type of relationships and relationship roles demonstrate a power differential that is alarming even if the relationship commenced after she was technically an adult.

 

As far as the molestation battle drama, I know personally what can happen and emerge in such a setting in terms of accusations, fear, and manipulation. I am inclined to consider the fact that pedophiles are less able to curb and control themselves than Allen's known history suggests. And I know the power of anger and fear generated by custody battles.

 

Finally, the irony of the author being disdainful of celebrity gossip while paying his bills based on income generated by it lowers my assumption of respect for the integrity of his perspective on the issue. I would have actually "listened" more thoughtfully sans the repeated judgments about readers, fans, followers of celebrity. He comes across as a superior writer and knower of the truth who is compelled by a higher force to inform us of the truth while making sure to affirm repeatedly how uninformed and ignorant we are.

[poppy]

Interesting that Mia Farrow married Frank Sinatra when she was 21 and he was 50, and Soon Yi got involved with Woody Allen when she was 20ish and he was 55.  Daughters often follow their mother's path.

 

I have no opinion on the love lives of celebrities. Unless they are abusive to children.  R Kelly is disgusting, flat out.  Otherwise, eh, I regard celebrinews like reality tv: it's mildly entertaining, gross, and pretty far from reality.

[WishboneDawn]

I really don't care what the other daughter says. From the description I just read of the investigation and the "evidence," it sounds like she was a young child being manipulated. I was about that age when something very similar happened to me: an adult whom I wanted to please coerced me into saying I was abused by another adult in my life. I know how easily that can happen.

 

I'm not saying the man's a saint, but I also think that Mia Farrow sounds like an incredibly disturbed woman.

 

And when it comes down to it, as OP noted, it's really none of my business given that law enforcement determined no crime to have been committed and I don't know these people personally.

Another possibility was that Farrow DID think he had molested the daughter but was too enthusiastic about positing that that she missed the possibility that it never happened.

 

We can't know. Especially not now when what happened is less important then what those involved believe happened. Which leaves us in the same place...We have no business speculating.

[umsami]

I'm adopted, so that clouds my view of Woody Allen's relationship with Soon-Yi, regardless of the fact that he and Mia were not married.  It is still sick and wrong.  Being adopted does not make me and my brother less siblings.  He was father to some of her siblings.  That is wrong.  No grey area.

 

Plus, his abuse of Dylan comes into play.  Did you read the Vanity Fair article on it?  She still sounds quite a lot like a survivor…and does not deny what her father did.  I believe children who said they were abused…. and she still maintains that story as an adult.

 

So, there's more than just the Soon-Yi thing.  http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/10/mia-farrow-children-family-scandal

 

"Orth speaks to Farrow’s children, including Dylan, who now has another name and who discusses what she remembers about Allen and how his behavior has tormented her. She refuses ever to say his name. She calls her fears “crippling†and says, “I’m scared of him, his image.†Dylan tells Orth, “I have never been asked to testify. If I could talk to the seven-year-old Dylan, I would tell her to be brave, to testify.â€

 

According to Dylan, “There’s a lot I don’t remember, but what happened in the attic I remember. I remember what I was wearing and what I wasn’t wearing.†She tells Orth, “The things making me uncomfortable were making me think I was a bad kid, because I didn’t want to do what my elder told me to do.†The attic, she says, pushed her over the edge. “I was cracking. I had to say something. I was seven. I was doing it because I was scared. I wanted it to stop.†For all she knew, she tells Orth, “this was how fathers treated their daughters. This was normal interaction, and I was not normal for feeling uncomfortable about it.â€

 

 

As for the OP's article, honestly, it sounds like a guy defending his friend.  I think no more of Woody Allen after reading it, but far less of the author who wrote it.

 

 

[shawthorne44]

I really didn't have much of an opinion on Woody Allen, or celebrities personal lives in general.  Although, it seems really clear to me that the siblings of your children are off limits.  Regardless of who was doing what where with who. 

[Snow]

Your girlfriend's kids should be off limits, I agree.

 

But I have to admit, it changes things for me that they are still together. It gives the relationship some real credibility to me and makes me think, well, maybe it's true that sometimes two people are simply meant to be together even if it has questionable beginnings?

[Scrub Jay]

Your girlfriend's kids should be off limits, I agree.

 

But I have to admit, it changes things for me that they are still together. It gives the relationship some real credibility to me and makes me think, well, maybe it's true that sometimes two people are simply meant to be together even if it has questionable beginnings?

 

ITA.

 

My uncle lived with his wife and her younger sister.  Wife moved out and sister stayed (when I was a kid).  Definitely not the most kosher romance starter but, you know what, they are still together almost 30 years later. 

 

They obviously have an age difference but it has been around 20 years - clearly Soon-Yi made a choice that she is happy with. 

[Joanne]

But I have to admit, it changes things for me that they are still together. It gives the relationship some real credibility to me and makes me think, well, maybe it's true that sometimes two people are simply meant to be together even if it has questionable beginnings?

 

Thousands of people stay together/married for years. I did it for 14 years in a marriage that was awful - while talking about our happy life and how much I loved him (on this forum, although in a different form).

 

Length of time does not speak to credibility to me. The power dynamic involved in a massive age difference carries a dynamic that continues. This case has an age difference AND a significant role/family role issue.

[umsami]

Your girlfriend's kids should be off limits, I agree.

 

But I have to admit, it changes things for me that they are still together. It gives the relationship some real credibility to me and makes me think, well, maybe it's true that sometimes two people are simply meant to be together even if it has questionable beginnings?

 

I'm more skeptical.  Soon-Yi has very little choice but to stay with him.  Unfortunately, she chose him over her family, her reputation, everything.  Her father (Andre Previn) disowned her.  She now has two kids with him.  She's seen what Woody's friends have done to Mia…and Soon-Yi doesn't have the benefit of being an actress, or coming from a Hollywood family.  She's stuck…until he moves on, or dies.

[Snow]

She's stuck…until he moves on, or dies.

Wow, yes we have different perspectives.

 

People always have a choice, and certainly more choices than just waiting for him to die.

[Joanne]

I am offended and irritated at the continual use of the words "adopted daughter" in this situation. Am I off base? What is the point of using the term other than to differentiate bio kids from adopted ones? And *that* is insulting and alarming and a few other adjectives.

[Scrub Jay]

Soon-Yi is a grown woman.  Obviously some people feel stuck in a marriage but there's absolutely no proof that she is one of these people. 

 

And she's intelliginet and accomplished.  Given there's no proof saying she's trapped or unhappy then I find it kind of demeaning that people assume she is. 

[WishboneDawn]

I'm adopted, so that clouds my view of Woody Allen's relationship with Soon-Yi, regardless of the fact that he and Mia were not married.  It is still sick and wrong.  Being adopted does not make me and my brother less siblings.  He was father to some of her siblings.  That is wrong.  No grey area.

 

Plus, his abuse of Dylan comes into play.  Did you read the Vanity Fair article on it?  She still sounds quite  lot like a survivor…and does not deny what her father did.  I believe children who said they were abused…. and she still maintains that story as an adult.

 

So, there's more than just the Soon-Yi thing.  http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/10/mia-farrow-children-family-scandal

 

"Orth speaks to Farrow’s children, including Dylan, who now has another name and who discusses what she remembers about Allen and how his behavior has tormented her. She refuses ever to say his name. She calls her fears “crippling†and says, “I’m scared of him, his image.†Dylan tells Orth, “I have never been asked to testify. If I could talk to the seven-year-old Dylan, I would tell her to be brave, to testify.â€

 

According to Dylan, “There’s a lot I don’t remember, but what happened in the attic I remember. I remember what I was wearing and what I wasn’t wearing.†She tells Orth, “The things making me uncomfortable were making me think I was a bad kid, because I didn’t want to do what my elder told me to do.†The attic, she says, pushed her over the edge. “I was cracking. I had to say something. I was seven. I was doing it because I was scared. I wanted it to stop.†For all she knew, she tells Orth, “this was how fathers treated their daughters. This was normal interaction, and I was not normal for feeling uncomfortable about it.â€

 

But those are not the words of a child. Those are the words of a woman 20 years removed from the events who has grown up believing they happened.

 

The distinction is important because, at the time, her statements were not as clear and consistent as they are now. The judge deciding custody found a report into the claims inconclusive. The team investigating the claims concluded the abuse likely didn't happen and offered two possibilities, either she was emotionally disturbed or was being or coached. This can't be ignored. 

 

So her interview doesn't help me decide. It leaves me in the same place, not knowing what really happened and deciding that I can't judge the people involved because of that. I do know, as the author pointed out, the she believes she was abused. In the most generous scenario, Woody Allen did nothing and Mia Farrow was a concerned mom trying to get at what she believed was the truth. But that doesn't reshape reality for the daughter. She believes she was abused. She's been supported in that belief for most of her life. That's her reality and I respect that.

[Joanne]

Wow, yes we have different perspectives.

 

People always have a choice, and certainly more choices than just waiting for him to die.

 

 

We also have different perspectives. On the bold, I don't believe that is the case. In my own life, there was a time when I didn't have a choice until several factors emerged that allowed an informed, empowered choice. Now that I am thinking about it, there have been several such moments.

[umsami]

Wow, yes we have different perspectives.

 

People always have a choice, and certainly more choices than just waiting for him to die.

 

Not to be a bummer, but…you may think people have a choice, but working in domestic violence, they don't always.  That's a myth.  It's a blame the victim, mentality.  Most dangerous time for a woman is when she leaves.  We lose over four women per day, every day, to domestic violence homicide.  (Used to be only three, numbers are up.)  I know women who can't leave abusive relationships because their husbands would take the kids out of the country, and as the State Dept. says, "we have no exit controls."  Not all countries are participants in the Hague Convention.  (NOte; I'm not saying the Allen is abusive…but the whole… "people always have a choice" thing is a lie."

 

I was a major Woody Allen fan.  But I can't support him at all anymore, nor watch his work.

[Joanne]

Soon-Yi is a grown woman.  Obviously some people feel stuck in a marriage but there's absolutely no proof that she is one of these people. 

 

And she's intelliginet and accomplished.  Given there's no proof saying she's trapped or unhappy then I find it kind of demeaning that people assume she is. 

 

 

I am not assuming she is. I'm simply not assuming that length of time in the relationship confers health, "meant to be", or being happy. I was educated, intelligent and accomplished during my first marriage.

 

I would also change wording a bit for me. There are people who feel stuck. And there are situations in which a person IS stuck. Whether Soon-Yi is either of those, I have no idea. But I can say that the dynamic of the power differential that was present at the beginning of their relationship is powerful enough to continue for years.

[umsami]

The overall rate of false child abuse allegations is extremely low…less than 10%.  Coming forward is never easy.  Maintaining that story up until adulthood, where it would be far easier to change, is not easy.  Because of that, I err on believing the victim.  Not being believed is usually a far bigger problem than being believed.

 

And yes, Allen's relationship with Soon-Yi shows issues with boundaries and what is appropriate, which to me gives Dylan's accusations more credibility.  

 

However, if we eliminate the abuse of Dylan, and assume that was false, the relationship with Soon-Yi was still 100% wrong.  It doesn't matter if he and Mia had separate apartments (which they did during their entire relationship).  You don't date your partners young daughter.  At minimum, you break up with your partner, wait some time, and then, if you absolutely can't help yourself, have a relationship.   There was a giant power difference between the two. He was 56.  She was 21.  He was a world famous, Oscar-winning director.  She was a college kid.  

[Joker]

I read it. It didn't change my perception of him. He still make me ill and I don't watch anything of his.

[WishboneDawn]

The author's list of myths does not impress me. In fact I find it somewhat insulting and dismissive of women. The author is right; I think it is despicable and deplorable for a 55 year old man to pursue his attraction to his long term girlfriend's 19 year old daughter. To me, honor and integrity and relationship health dictate you do NOT act on those feelings if they exist - even if they seem to be reciprocated and mutual.

 

I'm not sure how it's dismissive of women...?

 

A 19 year old can't give consent - not real consent - in those circumstances. The age difference and type of relationships and relationship roles demonstrate a power differential that is alarming even if the relationship commenced after she was technically an adult.

 

 

I don't know what constitutes consent then. Legally, she can and consent is generally a legal term. Certainly she might be naive but that's  something that's not safely a general about all 19 year olds. I find that kind of age difference weird and icky but so what? I don't know the couple. I can't speculate one way or the other about the relationship. I'm not willing to speak for Soon-Yi on this matter.

 

 

Finally, the irony of the author being disdainful of celebrity gossip while paying his bills based on income generated by it lowers my assumption of respect for the integrity of his perspective on the issue. I would have actually "listened" more thoughtfully sans the repeated judgments about readers, fans, followers of celebrity. He comes across as a superior writer and knower of the truth who is compelled by a higher force to inform us of the truth while making sure to affirm repeatedly how uninformed and ignorant we are.

 

 

I didn't have a big issue with the tone. Most people ARE uninformed and ignorant on the whole mess. Most of us haven't talked to those involved or read court records. 

 

But no, he's not one of the celebrity gossip crew. There's a difference between making biographies and spreading gossip. Gossip generally doesn't involve research, getting permission from folks he's covering, citing sources or covering people like W.C. Fields and the Marx Brothers who aren't exactly regulars in the tabloids these days. 

[WishboneDawn]

The overall rate of false child abuse allegations is extremely low…less than 10%.  Coming forward is never easy.  Maintaining that story up until adulthood, where it would be far easier to change, is not easy.  Because of that, I err on believing the victim.  Not being believed is usually a far bigger problem than being believed.

 

And yes, Allen's relationship with Soon-Yi shows issues with boundaries and what is appropriate, which to me gives Dylan's accusations more credibility.  

 

However, if we eliminate the abuse of Dylan, and assume that was false, the relationship with Soon-Yi was still 100% wrong.  It doesn't matter if he and Mia had separate apartments (which they did during their entire relationship).  You don't date your partners young daughter.  At minimum, you break up with your partner, wait some time, and then, if you absolutely can't help yourself, have a relationship.   There was a giant power difference between the two. He was 56.  She was 21.  He was a world famous, Oscar-winning director.  She was a college kid.  

 

Based on what I know I don't like the idea of the relationship either. 

 

But I know almost nothing and I'm not willing to assume more. 

[umsami]

More on Dylan's accusations that were not in the OP article...

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/culturebox/2014/01/did_woody_allen_molest_his_adopted_daughter_22_years_ago_reviewing_the_evidence.html

 

"...Farrow found out about the affair when Allen left pornographic photographs of Soon-Yi on his mantel in January 1992—eight months before Dylan made her allegations. By Orth’s account, Allen was already in therapy for “inappropriate behavior†with Dylan before the revelation of the affair.

 

And in their May 1994 decision, the judges of the New York appellate court held that, with regard to the events of Aug. 4, 1992, “the testimony given at trial by the individuals caring for the children that day, the videotape of Dylan made by Ms. Farrow the following day and the accounts of Dylan's behavior toward Mr. Allen both before and after the alleged instance of abuse, suggest that the abuse did occur.†Although “the evidence in support of the allegations remains inconclusive,†the court stated, “our review of the record militates against a finding that Ms. Farrow fabricated the allegations without any basis.â€"

[Catwoman]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html

I have spent 20 years thinking the worst of him. Here's a great article that's also a good correction for me.

It contains a lot of information most of us are missing and most importantly, makes it clear why 1) the personal lives of stars are not or entertainment and 2) neutrality, rather then hobbling together some opinion, is the correct position to take.

Well, I didn't think the article was particularly "neutral" in nature, as it was clearly biased in favor of Woody Allen, so I wouldn't necessarily assume the information included in it is the whole story, any more than I would assume that Mia Farrow's accounts or other published stories are entirely true. Nobody other than Woody Allen knows if he did the things of which he's accused, and I think we can all be relatively certain that if he's guilty, he's not telling, so none of us will ever know for sure what transpired in his personal life.

 

As far as the lives of stars not being our entertainment, it seems to me that many of them seem to crave that kind of attention. Plenty of stars live relatively private lives -- the ones who are constantly on social media and featured on TV gossip shows are mainly the ones who have intentionally done public things to get that attention, whether intentionally or unintentionally (unintentionally being things like getting arrested for something.) And let's not forget the fact that many stars are constantly posting on social media sites, sharing plenty of personal details about themselves.

 

I don't care about celebrities' lives, but celebrity gossip has been around forever and I don't think it's going to go away.

[RanchGirl]

What a ridiculously biased article.  Contrast these two statements from the article- first minimizing the disgusting behavior of Woody Allen: "If anyone is creeped out by the notion of a 55-year old man becoming involved with his girlfriend’s 19-year old adopted daughter, I understand."

 

But when we're talking about Mia, an adult, having a possible affair with her ex-husband "Mia was apparently diddling her ex, five years earlier."

 

Woody becomes involved, Mia diddles.  And it got worse from there.

 

But the most offensive part of that article was the horrific victim blaming and complete dismissal of Dylan.

 

Well actually, there was also the horrible news that Woody Allen and Soon Yi were allowed to adopt two girls.  But good news folks, the Allen ass-kissing author of this article doesn't think there's anything inappropriate going on between Woody Allen and his adopted daughters.  So we can all rest easy there.

[WishboneDawn]

More on Dylan's accusations that were not in the OP article...

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/culturebox/2014/01/did_woody_allen_molest_his_adopted_daughter_22_years_ago_reviewing_the_evidence.html

 

"...Farrow found out about the affair when Allen left pornographic photographs of Soon-Yi on his mantel in January 1992—eight months before Dylan made her allegations. By Orth’s account, Allen was already in therapy for “inappropriate behavior†with Dylan before the revelation of the affair.

 

And in their May 1994 decision, the judges of the New York appellate court held that, with regard to the events of Aug. 4, 1992, “the testimony given at trial by the individuals caring for the children that day, the videotape of Dylan made by Ms. Farrow the following day and the accounts of Dylan's behavior toward Mr. Allen both before and after the alleged instance of abuse, suggest that the abuse did occur.†Although “the evidence in support of the allegations remains inconclusive,†the court stated, “our review of the record militates against a finding that Ms. Farrow fabricated the allegations without any basis.â€"

Thank you. I read it and I'm not sure it clears the whole matter up for me but it adds a lot to consider.

 

I'm still left with the question, do I have to? And is that still enough information?

 

*sigh*

 

ETA: I'm sorry serious with the thank you. It's make a good counter to what I posted.

[Catwoman]

Thank you. I read it and I'm not sure it clears the whole matter up for me but it adds a lot to consider.

 

I'm still left with the question, do I have to? And is that still enough information?

 

*sigh*

It will never be enough information. None of us was there, and the people who were involved have their own opposing agendas.

 

I have my own strong opinion on the matter, but it's not worth posting because I don't have enough solid evidence to back up my feelings about it, and I'm not interested enough to try to find facts and figures.