Messianic Jew - what does that mean to you?

[mytwomonkeys]

I've honestly only seen one messianic temple IRL. This was it: http://www.hopeofisrael.info

 

It looks like they have 3 locations, but I've only ever seen the one.

 

I never visited it when we lived there, but if I remember correctly, it looked like a synogogue but messianic was on the side of the building. Really, everyone knew it was not a synogogue, so I can't imagine anyone Jewish not knowing that, especially if they were from there.

[mytwomonkeys]

I

This is basically the view that most Jews I know have as well. I am not sure though your parallel with the Chabad. The Chabad reaches out to Jews in an effort to help them become more Torah observant Jews. The Messianic movement reaches out to Jews in order for them to become Christian. I understand people here having a hard time separating cultural Judaism and the religious aspect. I guess yes, people who become Messianic never lose their cultural identity as Jews, but there is no way to reconcile the two religions. The beliefs are so divergent that you cannot be both. It is like being a Christian and an Atheist at the same time. You could have someone call themself a Christian Atheist because they celebrate Christmas and Easter secularly, but when it come to the religious aspect one cannot be both.

Well my professor in school was an agnostic Jew. And he was both. Perhaps messianic Jew can simply mean they are both Jewish by heritage and follow the messiah by faith.

[dbmamaz]

I do think my father was introduced to messianic judiasm through amway when my parents were doing that.  Amway had a very strong conservative christian right-wing bend, including that the wife should be focused on serving her husband - which made my mom the feminist really angry.  But I think during the sunday services of their retreats, there would be a jews for jesus option?  im not sure, but i do THINK thats where my dad found it.

[mamajudy]

... I guess yes, people who become Messianic never lose their cultural identity as Jews, but there is no way to reconcile the two religions. The beliefs are so divergent that you cannot be both. It is like being a Christian and an Atheist at the same time. You could have someone call themself a Christian Atheist because they celebrate Christmas and Easter secularly, but when it come to the religious aspect one cannot be both.

But the two religions (Christianity and Judaism) are not divergent. Christianity is a completion, if you will, of the Jewish faith. Some Jews who believe in Jesus refer to themselves as Completed Jews. Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies and that the entire Old Testament points the way to Jesus. The Apostles were Jews. They believed that Jesus was the fulfillment of their religion -- not that He was introducing some entirely different religion.

[mamajudy]

That would be a Christian belief, not a Jewish one.

Of course it is. But to make the analogy, as the previous post suggested, that Christianity is to Judaism as Christianity is to Atheism is completely wrong.

[vonfirmath]

That would be a Christian belief, not a Jewish one. 

 

Originally it was a Jewish belief -- of the apostles and those that followed Christ. IT was the rejection of the Jews that caused the early Christians to end up having to separate themselves from the Jews. There were arguments among the early church whether Gentile believers needed to be circumcised and what they could eat that are dealt with in the New testament.

[mamajudy]

Originally it was a Jewish belief -- of the apostles and those that followed Christ. IT was the rejection of the Jews that caused the early Christians to end up having to separate themselves from the Jews. There were arguments among the early church whether Gentile believers needed to be circumcised and what they could eat that are dealt with in the New testament.

Exactly. The Apostles went first to the Jews with the gospel. When they were rejected and persecuted, they went to the Gentiles. In fact, it is my understanding that the word "Christian" was originally a derogatory term used to describe the followers of Christ.

[SeaConquest]

At the very least, there are segments of the Chabad movement that believe its late Rebbe to be the Messiah — in a way that is similar to what Christians believe about Jesus, including a second coming. Some apparently even believe him to be G-d himself, and pray to him. It's not clear how large a segment of Chabad believes these things, but it its clear that they don't speak openly about it and instead present themselves exclusively along the lines mentioned in your post.

 

This is the book my local rabbi gave me on the topic, after weird personal experiences with the local Chabad people:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Rebbe-Messiah-Scandal-Orthodox-Indifference/dp/1904113753/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389727353&sr=8-1&keywords=the+rebbe+the+messiah+and+the+scandal+of+orthodox+indifference

I've attended several Chabad synagogues over the years and have never personally witnessed the elevation of the Rebbe to the status of moshiach. A sage and a tzadik? Absolutely, but idol worship is sacrilege in Judaism. And while the Rebbe is certainly revered within Chabad, it is not uncommon to hear the expression, "We want moshiach now!" And that moshiach is clearly not referencing a great man long since passed. I cannot speak to Chabad in Europe, but I've been around many Lubavitch, Satmar, and Breslov Jews in the U.S., and never found anything more than a deep admiration and reverence for the wisdom of their Rebbes.

[KarenNC]

I think of Messianic Judaism as the above-mentioned attempt to convert Jews to Christianity while presenting one's group as authentically a part of accepted Jewish religious practice. All the ones I've encountered have specifically stated that they are dedicated to converting ethnic Jews to a worship of Jesus as the Messiah while continuing all the outward worship styles of religious Judaism so that converts won't feel they've really changed in any substantial way.

 

Whenever I encounter this, I do wonder how most Christians would feel if they lived in a majority Muslim country and a movement presented itself as authentically Christian, called itself a church, practiced all the outward worship styles of Christianity, wore crosses, and had a specific outreach to Christians to follow the teachings Mohammed rather than Jesus, since Mohammed is the true fulfillment of Judaism and Christianity ("see, you can be Muslim and Christian at the same time, it's not really that different, Jesus is still an important prophet"). I somehow don't think they would be as complacent about "Islamic Christianity" as they expect Jews should be with Messianic Judaism or see it as a natural outgrowth of Christianity. Note that I am *not* saying that anything like this actually exists, as far as I know, it's just for illustrative purposes.

[Crimson Wife]

The Hebraic Christians I know are ethnically & culturally Jewish but were not religiously observant at the time. Some were atheist, some were raised in an interfaith family, and some were the Jewish equivalent of "Christmas and Easter Catholics". They heard and accepted the Christian Gospel but still wanted to continue the cultural aspects of their Jewish heritage. I don't get the sense there was any deception involved on the part of the Christian evangelists.

[Ipsey]

Whenever I encounter this, I do wonder how most Christians would feel if they lived in a majority Muslim country and a movement presented itself as authentically Christian, called itself a church, practiced all the outward worship styles of Christianity, wore crosses, and had a specific outreach to Christians to follow the teachings Mohammed rather than Jesus, since Mohammed is the true fulfillment of Judaism and Christianity ("see, you can be Muslim and Christian at the same time, it's not really that different, Jesus is still an important prophet"). I somehow don't think they would be as complacent about "Islamic Christianity" as they expect Jews should be with Messianic Judaism or see it as a natural outgrowth of Christianity. Note that I am *not* saying that anything like this actually exists, as far as I know, it's just for illustrative purposes.

 

I was about to make this point. When I was an Evangelical, I was in some circles that were tangential to the local Messianic Church, and at the same time had many Muslim students (and some Bahai). That's when I first started thinking about this.

It is a great illustration and interesting food for thought.

[Library Momma]

At the very least, there are segments of the Chabad movement that believe its late Rebbe to be the Messiah — in a way that is similar to what Christians believe about Jesus, including a second coming. Some apparently even believe him to be G-d himself, and pray to him. It's not clear how large a segment of Chabad believes these things, but it its clear that they don't speak openly about it and instead present themselves exclusively along the lines mentioned in your post.

 

This is the book my local rabbi gave me on the topic, after weird personal experiences with the local Chabad people:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Rebbe-Messiah-Scandal-Orthodox-Indifference/dp/1904113753/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389727353&sr=8-1&keywords=the+rebbe+the+messiah+and+the+scandal+of+orthodox+indifference

 

Yes This is true to some extent.  The different Jewish movements have different views on the concept of the Messiah but in all of them that concept is very different than the Messiah in Christianity.  That is why I included my link early on about what the Messiah is in Judaism.  To most Jews that await a Messiah (mostly Orthodox) he is a person - a great leader that has all of the answers.  there is no divinity attached.

[Wabi Sabi]

A Messianic Jew, IMO, is a fundamentalist Christian is who has co-opted Jewish traditions and holidays. The one person that I know who was a Messianic Jew went straight off the deep end. She had some mental health issues and once getting involved with the church spiraled downhill rapidly. It was not a healthy environment for her at all. While I know that this one person is not representative of the entire movement, I can't help be left with a bad taste in my mouth. Frankly, it seemed as though this young lady was sinking deeper and deeper into a cult every time I spoke with her until her tragic death at far too young of an age.

[AimeeM]

This is controversial, lol.

We have a friend (and his family) who are Messianic Jew...

 

I tutored a young girl who is Orthodox Jewish (well, her parents are). I asked her mom this once and the result was a huge eye roll - apparently the Jewish community finds the Messianic Jewish crowd to be a giggle (and probably a bit of an insult).

[dbmamaz]

This is controversial, lol.

We have a friend (and his family) who are Messianic Jew...

 

I tutored a young girl who is Orthodox Jewish (well, her parents are). I asked her mom this once and the result was a huge eye roll - apparently the Jewish community finds the Messianic Jewish crowd to be a giggle (and probably a bit of an insult).

Yeah, my mom didnt take too well to my father's conversion.  I'm pretty sure she never told her mom, who would have been horrified.  I'm not even sure if my mom ever went to one of the services.   

[mytwomonkeys]

I think of Messianic Judaism as the above-mentioned attempt to convert Jews to Christianity while presenting one's group as authentically a part of accepted Jewish religious practice. All the ones I've encountered have specifically stated that they are dedicated to converting ethnic Jews to a worship of Jesus as the Messiah while continuing all the outward worship styles of religious Judaism so that converts won't feel they've really changed in any substantial way.

 

Whenever I encounter this, I do wonder how most Christians would feel if they lived in a majority Muslim country and a movement presented itself as authentically Christian, called itself a church, practiced all the outward worship styles of Christianity, wore crosses, and had a specific outreach to Christians to follow the teachings Mohammed rather than Jesus, since Mohammed is the true fulfillment of Judaism and Christianity ("see, you can be Muslim and Christian at the same time, it's not really that different, Jesus is still an important prophet"). I somehow don't think they would be as complacent about "Islamic Christianity" as they expect Jews should be with Messianic Judaism or see it as a natural outgrowth of Christianity. Note that I am *not* saying that anything like this actually exists, as far as I know, it's just for illustrative purposes.

I agree, assuming it is a non-Jew claiming to be a messianic Jew. Without stepping on toes, I find the entire movement around Christians mimicking Jewish feasts, traditions, and food restrictions strange.

 

I don't see the analogy the same though for a Jewish person still wanting to identify as a Jew, but people telling them they can't because of their belief in Christ. They don't see it as a conversion of faith, but a completion of prophecy. I agree that their main purpose is to convert other Jews though. What little I've read, that seems to be a very high priority for them.

[KarenNC]

I agree, assuming it is a non-Jew claiming to be a messianic Jew. Without stepping on toes, I find the entire movement around Christians mimicking Jewish feasts, traditions, and food restrictions strange.

 

I don't see the analogy the same though for a Jewish person still wanting to identify as a Jew, but people telling them they can't because of their belief in Christ. They don't see it as a conversion of faith, but a completion of prophecy. I agree that their main purpose is to convert other Jews though. What little I've read, that seems to be a very high priority for them.

 

When someone converts (to anything, really), I frequently see that they have a special zeal for trying to bring along as many others who were in their previous circles as possible. I wonder if this is primarily a human tendency to do everything possible to get external validation for one's choice, as in, "I think this thing is wonderful, but shouldn't x think it's just as wonderful and want to join me?" type of thing. I think thoughts (or even unconscious fears) of having made a mistake can arise, especially when the "new" wears off and they start to see the flaws in their new group of choice (all groups have flaws) or it's harder than they expected in some way.

 

I haven't really encountered Jews who have converted but still want to identify as Jewish to the extent of having a Christian synagogue, but that may be more due to geography. Our state is only 0.3% Jewish, compared to somewhere like NY which is 9%. I have had one encounter with Jews for Jesus, but that was decades ago when they came to our church youth group to do a redacted Christian Seder. I don't believe they are actually active in our area. What I see around here are non-ethnically-Jewish Christians who want to adopt some level of their interpretation of Jewish observance as part of their practices.

[KarenNC]

dp

[Dory]

They might not have a desire to be called Christian but they are.  Judaism does not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.  Therefore, from a Jewish point of view they are Christian.

 

 

My parents consider Christianity to be very pagan and you would never hear them use the name Christ. I know a lot of others that think along those lines as well. As far as they are concerned, I'm basically wh*ring spiritually because I occasionally go to a church on Sunday. I know they pray for me a lot over it. Jews don't consider them Christian, but most Christians I know don't consider them Christian either. Many of them don't believe in a trinity and many of them don't believe that the Messiah came for all sin but just the sins that the sacrificial system didn't cover.

[milovany]

I find the entire movement around Christians mimicking Jewish feasts, traditions, and food restrictions strange.....

 

I do, too, although I also do understand it (I understand the longing by protestants -- especially of varieties without real ritual/tradition -- for that history and those feasts). From the Christian pov, though -- in my thought -- why not have feasts that commemorate that the Messiah has already come? Why not commemorate Him and His life and His teachings?  Why participate in feasts and practices that (according to the Christian faith) only point to His coming? His conception, His birth, His transfiguration, His death, His resurrection, His ascension, His mother's role in His incarnation -- these are the things the early church established feasts for because they rejoiced at what He'd already done and taught and given. These are the feasts that have been celebrated in the church for 2000 years.  If some Christians want to come up with something now that includes celebrating the Jewish feasts, that's their prerogative, I guess.

 

That said, I'm so, so appreciative of what I've learned about the Jewish faith here on this board.  If anything I said is disrespectful of that, I meant no ill.  I didn't have any type of comprehension before a couple of years ago about the Jewish phronema, as it were.  I am thankful that now I do (albeit a minuscule one, I'm sure).

[umsami]

Curious…do Messianic Jews believe that Jesus *is* God?  

 

Because among 99% of all Jews I know (as well as Muslims (who also believe in the Messiah's eventual coming)), the concept of the Messiah being God, or the whole concept of the Trinity, does not exist.   There is still a strict monotheism, for lack of a better word (not getting into the whole concept of the Trinity).  

 

I would think that if they do not believe in Jesus as God, but do believe that Jesus was the Messiah, then referring to themselves as Messianic Jews would make more sense than using the term Christian.  Because my understanding is that the denominations that do not view Jesus as God are pretty rare.

 

 

As for the previous posters who mentioned earlier movements, I remember that Jews for Jesus was not well received among Jewish friends I had.

[NCMom]

If someone claims to be a Messianic Jew does that mean:

 

1 ~ They were a practicing Jew who has come to believe Jesus is Messiah.

 

2 ~ Any Christian (never Jewish) that decides to attend a Messianic congregation after many years in traditional Christian churches.

 

Thanks! Trying to settle my thoughts on a current situation.

 

 

ETA - adjusted the original to remove any confusion.

Number 2 - around here this is VERY common. Like whole great parts of churches leaving for it.

 

I had thought this was a movement to convert Jews, though most congregations here don't seem to focus there.

 

Georgia

[mommaduck]

I've meant people that are of both definitions.

 

I've had Jewish friends that would add a third definition...Christians (regardless of ethnic and cultural background) using Judaic traditions to attempt to convert Jews (aka, a form of misrepresentation similar to Baptists dressing up as Orthodox priests and carrying censors to try to convert Eastern Orthodox in Russia). Granted, I've known some very sincere Messianics, but they vary and views on them vary.

[JFSinIL]

this may be my relative's group:

http://www.mcchicago.org/index.html

 

or maybe they are in this north suburban one:

http://www.adathatikvah.org/

 

or maybe they are in the Skokie  one, Devar Emet Messianic 

 

or perhaps Congregation Etz Chaim,

 

this website lists 16 in the Chicago area alone:

 

http://www.man-na.com/Messianic_Congregations_in_Illinois.htm

 

so Messianic Jews are not as uncommon as you might think  - or Northern Illinois is simply where they all live?  ;-)   I do know that over 15 years ago these relatives were noting that they were part of the founding of the first such group in the Chicago area. (ok, I googled this relative and his family is in the Deerfield group, and he has been active for over 3 decades!).

 

[mytwomonkeys]

this may be my relative's group:

http://www.mcchicago.org/index.html

 

or maybe they are in this north suburban one:

http://www.adathatikvah.org/

 

or maybe they are in the Skokie one, Devar Emet Messianic

 

or perhaps Congregation Etz Chaim,

 

this website lists 16 in the Chicago area alone:

 

http://www.man-na.com/Messianic_Congregations_in_Illinois.htm

 

so Messianic Jews are not as uncommon as you might think - or Northern Illinois is simply where they all live? ;-) I do know that over 15 years ago these relatives were noting that they were part of the founding of the first such group in the Chicago area. (ok, I googled this relative and his family is in the Deerfield group, and he has been active for over 3 decades!).

Just curious. Are your relatives Jewish converts or are they non-Jewish that identify as messianic Jews?

 

I was just wondering :) I've never heard of Non-Jews claiming to be messianic Jews until this thread. Not that I know a lot of messianic Jews at all... I just didn't realize the term was so broad. I assumed it only referred to actual Jewish people believing Jesus was the messiah. Just wondering if your family and their church make up one or the other - or both as the congregation.

[JFSinIL]

Just curious. Are your relatives Jewish converts or are they non-Jewish that identify as messianic Jews?

 

I was just wondering :) I've never heard of Non-Jews claiming to be messianic Jews until this thread. Not that I know a lot of messianic Jews at all... I just didn't realize the term was so broad. I assumed it only referred to actual Jewish people believing Jesus was the messiah. Just wondering if your family and their church make up one or the other - or both as the congregation.

 

These are my in-law in-laws (double in-laws?).  I married into a very Catholic family.  One of the devote  dds,, my sister-in-law, married a Jewish man, one of two brothers who both wed devote Catholics.  In my sister-in-law's case, she remained Catholic and raised their daughters Catholic. He didn't much care.

 

The other Jewish man, my sister-in-law's brother-in-law - he and his Catholic wife "compromised" by helping start up a Messianic synagogue in the Chicago area, and raised their two sons Messianic.  They take being Messianic very seriously.

 

I always felt a little sorry for Sussie, the mom who had both her boys marry outside her faith, and non of her grandkids raised as purely Jewish.

[mytwomonkeys]

These are my in-law in-laws (double in-laws?). I married into a very Catholic family. One of the devote dds,, my sister-in-law, married a Jewish man, one of two brothers who both wed devote Catholics. In my sister-in-law's case, she remained Catholic and raised their daughters Catholic. He didn't much care.

 

The other Jewish man, my sister-in-law's brother-in-law - he and his Catholic wife "compromised" by helping start up a Messianic synagogue in the Chicago area, and raised their two sons Messianic. They take being Messianic very seriously.

 

I always felt a little sorry for Sussie, the mom who had both her boys marry outside her faith, and non of her grandkids raised as purely Jewish.

That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing!! :)

[mommymilkies]

Messianic Jews are not Jewish, they are Christian. There is no way to believe Jesus is the Messiah and be a Jew at the same time. There are no movements (denominations) in Judaism that consider Messianic Jews Jewish (meaning this isn't just my opinion).

This. I was raised Jewish (long story about family dynamics and maternal line). Messianics were the Christians who decided they liked Judaism and tried to push themselves out there as Jews for Jesus and tell the rest of us Jewish folk that they were our brethren and try to convert us. No. Not in the slightest, and it was deeply insulting. No offense to Messianic people on here, but my opinion was based on my experience and I have never personally met a Jewish person who became Christian and called the self Messianic. They usually just say they are Catholic, EO, etc. It's unfortunate when a few bad apples sour our opinion of groups.

[JennyD]

I am Jewish. I come from a huge (Jewish) family, have almost always belonged to a synagogue, have been a part of numerous Jewish organizations, and lived in a heavily Jewish neighborhood of NYC for nearly a decade.  All that is to say, I know a megaton of Jews.  

 

And in my personal experience, over all those years, I have never even heard of, much less known, anyone who became messianic.   I know loads of people who changed affiliations within Judaism -- e.g., Orthodox folks who became nonobservant, nonobservant people who became Orthodox, Reform who became Conservative, Conservative who became Reform, Modern Orthodox who moved to Israel and became ultra-Orthodox ... the list goes on and on.   I know quite a few people who consider themselves Jews but attend Unitarian churches.  I also know of or heard of a couple of people who actively converted to Christianity -- two Catholics and a Methodist, to be specific.   And years ago I read a book that noted, with some good authority, that a surprisingly high percentage of converts to Buddhism are former Jews.  

 

But messianicism?  No way. I barely even heard of the phenomenon before I moved to the Bible Belt and joined online and RL homeschool organizations dominated by evangelical Protestants.  

 

The Pew Research Center published a major study of American Jewry recently. (http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/) I have not read it in detail, but looking quickly for the relevant numbers, it looks like they estimate that 2.2% of American adults are Jews -- defined as both people who consider themselves Jewish by religion and Jewish by culture.  An additional 1% of Americans consider themselves Jewish by background, which includes people who were raised Jewish but now consider themselves either not Jewish, another religion, or Jewish plus another religion.  Out of that 1%, 3% define themselves as Messianic Jews.  

 

Those are really small numbers. Unless messianic congregations generally consist of just a couple of people, the vast majority of adherents simply have to be of non-Jewish background.