............

[Mrs Mungo]

I really appreciate the fact that billboards do not block our lovely views.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I really appreciate the fact that billboards do not block our lovely views.

 

But…how do you go about finding your dentists and plastic surgeons?

[Mrs Mungo]

But…how do you go about finding your dentists and plastic surgeons?

I have insurance. So, for dentists I just read the list they give me, then I ask on my Facebook and/or local homeschool list.

 

Everyone I know who has had plastic surgery has done it in Singapore or somewhere in South America.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I have insurance. So, for dentists I just read the list they give me, then I ask on my Facebook and/or local homeschool list.

 

Everyone I know who has had plastic surgery has done it in Singapore or somewhere in South America.

 

I know, I was just being facetious  :tongue_smilie: I've often wondered if anyone, ever, has called a medical professional based on a billboard sighting. I see those and I think they must not be very good if they need so much marketing. (I'm sure that's not true, of course, but it does turn me off rather than on!)

[Catwoman]

Look, I have friends who are billboards, OK. I just don't see why they have to be in my face all the time! And really, I don't see why my friends can't just choose to be classy, glossy magazine advertisements instead - if I'm allowed to speak freely here, which obviously I'm not! Ugly is ugly and I don't see why the PC police get to shut me down on that. Don't you value truth ?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Oops. Flipflop - you were joking, right ? Now I'm suddenly unsure.

 

You know I support your right to like billboards, right ? I will go to billboard mediation with you as a sign of goodwill.

 

:lol: Yes, absolutely joking. But if you can find billboard mediation, I'll go with you, just to see what it's like...

[milovany]

I'm kinda concerned about the mannequin guy that used to sit atop the local furniture store billboard.  He used to sit way up there, over the ad, pointing across town to the store.  He hasn't been there for awhile.  Did he fall?  Did he meet a lovely gal and move away?  Was he kidnapped?  Or did he get a promotion to jewelry store billboard mannequin?  I need closure. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I get my plastic surgery done in Thailand. So I get the number from the billboards there.

 

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

[Catwoman]

I know, I was just being facetious :tongue_smilie: I've often wondered if anyone, ever, has called a medical professional based on a billboard sighting. I see those and I think they must not be very good if they need so much marketing. (I'm sure that's not true, of course, but it does turn me off rather than on!)

Or eye surgery.

 

Because if I'm going to get eye surgery, I want to be sure I pick a surgeon off a billboard, because then I know he has to be good. :rolleyes:

 

And if I need eye surgery, can I even see the billboard? ;)

 

Also, what's the deal with billboards that advertise hospital emergency rooms? Are they only in high-accident areas or something? Or maybe they're just trying to build brand awareness, so if you are suddenly in need of the ER, your first thought will be, "I want to go to the one on the billboard. It looks way nicer than the ER that's much closer to my house."

[zoobie]

Or eye surgery.

 

Because if I'm going to get eye surgery, I want to be sure I pick a surgeon off a billboard, because then I know he has to be good. :rolleyes:

 

And if I need eye surgery, can I even see the billboard? ;)

 

Also, what's the deal with billboards that advertise hospital emergency rooms? Are they only in high-accident areas or something? Or maybe they're just trying to build brand awareness, so if you are suddenly in need of the ER, your first thought will be, "I want to go to the one on the billboard. It looks way nicer than the ER that's much closer to my house."

Or the ones with the coupons!

[albeto.]

 

The biggest problem I see with this is that if I put my faith and belief in humanity, I'd be pretty dam* distraught about now. I like having faith in something that I believe will free me from this mostly depraved society at some point. I mean should I be having belief in the "knockout game" teens, the elementary school shooters, the illustrious Hollywood elite, Oprah, or even worse, Obama and our upstanding government officials. Good gracious! I think I'd like to keep God in my life.

 

 

Herein lies the value in these campaigns. It gets the conversation going. It helps each one of us to see another's point of view, fears, worries, and ideally, hopes. Let me try a thought experiment with you, if you don't mind. Of course, if you're not comfortable playing along, please know I won't be disappointed. I wouldn't mind if milovany or anyone else played as well or instead. I do think it will help, so I hope someone will indulge me.

 

If you could list five major characteristics of God that you value, what would they be?

 

If you could list five major characteristics of humanity that you don't value, what would they be?

 

 

Now...

 

Do you see the same valuable characteristics in humanity?

Do you see the same negative characteristics in God?

 

Can you see that it might not be the person or deity that is of value, but the characteristic itself? 

Can you see that if the negative behaviors can be understood, they can be explained? Can they be forgiven? Can they be improved? Is there hope for improvement? 

 

My point is that I don't think it's the characteristics that are present only in one who knows and believes in the Christian story, even if we are presented that perception as being true. It simply doesn't pan out when information is included.

 

If anyone is interested, we can spin this off into another thread so as not to derail this one, but I think this is the point of these campaigns - to confront this perception and correct it. 

[Laurie4b]

Herein lies the value in these campaigns. It gets the conversation going. It helps each one of us to see another's point of view, fears, worries, and ideally, hopes. Let me try a thought experiment with you, if you don't mind. Of course, if you're not comfortable playing along, please know I won't be disappointed. I wouldn't mind if milovany or anyone else played as well or instead. I do think it will help, so I hope someone will indulge me.

 

If you could list five major characteristics of God that you value, what would they be?

 

If you could list five major characteristics of humanity that you don't value, what would they be?

 

 

Now...

 

Do you see the same valuable characteristics in humanity?

Do you see the same negative characteristics in God?

 

Can you see that it might not be the person or deity that is of value, but the characteristic itself? 

Can you see that if the negative behaviors can be understood, they can be explained? Can they be forgiven? Can they be improved? Is there hope for improvement? 

 

My point is that I don't think it's the characteristics that are present only in one who knows and believes in the Christian story, even if we are presented that perception as being true. It simply doesn't pan out when information is included.

 

If anyone is interested, we can spin this off into another thread so as not to derail this one, but I think this is the point of these campaigns - to confront this perception and correct it. 

 

I believe exactly that--that those things of beauty are present in all humans beings & not just those who are Christians because I believe that human beings are made in the image of God. Genesis 1:27

 

 

[albeto.]

Flip, seriously -- I think you're reading more into that than is there. The billboard DOES pit humanity against God and what we put our faith in. Stacey was just responding to that and giving her opinion (as the gal on the billboard did) about where she wants to put her faith. If you don't want to put your faith in humanity, great that's fine, but the gal on the billboard does and that's the context of the conversation (or at the very least, if it's different, it's what she "believes in" as some "believe in" God).

 

Thank you, milovany, for having the courage to support a very unpopular view in this crowd. I think what you say really does seem to dig deeply into the problem. If one can pledge allegiance to only one, then logically, they must be pitted against each other, right? I do expect people here will generally disagree with this premise, that one can pledge allegiance to only one, but there is biblical and historical precedence set for this argument (I actually agree with you here, but disagree with the war rhetoric, as I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of what's going on). In this sense, then the war isn't against Christmas, that's just the battleground. The war is against God. Would that be correct (if not simplified too much)?

[albeto.]

See, I really don't understand why people twist my words. I never said the school shooters and knockout game players were atheists. I just said that's not the type of "humanity" I want to put my faith in. Geez.

 

Stacey, would it be fair to assume you believe that any good behavior is directly related to the holy spirit, whereas any bad behavior is the lack of the guidance of the holy spirit and instead the guidance of the force or power of sin?

[Slartibartfast]

Stacey, would it be fair to assume you believe that any good behavior is directly related to the holy spirit, whereas any bad behavior is the lack of the guidance of the holy spirit and instead the guidance of the force or power of sin?

 

 

I think she just means some humans are crappy. 

[albeto.]

I believe exactly that--that those things of beauty are present in all humans beings & not just those who are Christians because I believe that human beings are made in the image of God. Genesis 1:27

 

 

 

So in your belief system, is it understood that one can be "good without God" but only because God is always present and his goodness permeates at his will? 

 

In that sense, pushing God "out" of the country would be detrimental to all, is that right?

 

Do you see atheists "coming out" as a "war on Christ"?

[Laurie4b]

So in your belief system, is it understood that one can be "good without God" but only because God is always present and his goodness permeates at his will?  No, that's not what made in His image means

 

In that sense, pushing God "out" of the country would be detrimental to all, is that right?No clue what you're talking about

 

Do you see atheists "coming out" as a "war on Christ"? Why would I?  If you read my post on the first page, you'll see what I think about the war on Christmas.

 

.

[AmandaVT]

We don't have billboards here, hooray! Of course, many people would consider it socialist. No billboards, we have public transportation (and the voters have voted to pay to improve upon it), we have had employer-mandated health insurance for many years (one of the reasons it qualifies as one of the healthiest states), etc.

 

 

No billboards in VT either - it's peaceful! Although I will say I get terribly distracted now when driving through MA looking at the billboards. 

 

I haven't seen a war on Christmas here. Every year, I take my son to the statehouse Christmas tree lighting and the local children's choir sing Christmas carols. The churches put out their nativity scenes, downtown gets decorated and one neighborhood puts out luminaries on Christmas eve all up and down the streets. Looks beautiful. :-) I've been hearing a pretty equal mix of Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas. I say Merry Christmas to people i know celebrate and Happy Holidays when I'm unsure. I've always thought Happy Holidays was inclusive and encompassed everything from Thanksgiving through New Years.

[Kari C in SC]

So, I keep hearing about this "war on Christmas" and the secularizing of Christmas, blah blah blah pretty often, and I just don't get it.

 

We are Christian, Libertarians, kinda middle of the road- a few steps toward the right, but still definitely in the middle.

 

I just don't get what everyone is whining about.

 

We live in Maryland- pretty liberal state. We live close to DC and go there very often. So far, we went to a Christmas parade in Alexandria where they played Christmas carols and shouted "Merry Christmas" -even had signs and stuff. And Santa pulled up the rear in a convertable.

 

We went to an Army band Christmas concert where many Christmas songs, several of them were extremely religious, were sang/played.

 

There are Messiah concerts at The National Cathedral, The Naval Academy, and many others.

 

We saw the Nativity Scene at the National Christmas Tree.

 

We went to the ice! exhibit at the National Harbor and there was a whole room that contained a GORGEOUS Nativity scene made out of ice- and the (biblical) Christmas story was being piped in over head. We also saw a light show in the lobby that played Handels Messiah.

 

Every time we go to a store, or out to eat, we are told Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidiays with a smile. And since Christmas IS one of the holidays being celebrated I respond with a "thank you", or "you too" or "Merry Christmas" and go on about my day.

 

Back to the Beginning with Christiane Amanpour was on CNN last night and it very respectfully talked about the Bible and Jesus, etc.

 

We see Nativity scenes in people's yards, etc. and since we go to church, we do advent stuff every week.

 

I just. do. not. understand. what all these people who are crying "War" are talking about.... I mean, is it different in other places? Are people really waging a hostile war on Christmas? I just don't get it! (And didn't want to vent on Facebook, where I "hear" most of this whining...)

I have come into this late and didn't read the whole thread. I don't see it either. I think it is in part because of the mass info of the internet. I see all sorts of Christian complaining that I think I would have missed before. And, I do consider myself to be a child of God, Christ follower. I just don't like all the Christian whining about nothing.

[Kari C in SC]

 

 

Vent. Discuss. Go to bed. Wake up and worry about cleaning dirty house. Only think about this again when some in law makes a "War on Christmas" comment. Roll eyes. Go on with life.

You just described my life!

[NASDAQ]

I don't personally care. We don't celebrate Christmas, and we don't celebrate Generic Winter Holidays of Not-Jesus. I'm not sure who the "happy holidays" market share is.

 

I'm going to be sitting with the people who think there is still plenty of Christmas around, AND think that people who get offended at being wished a Merry Christmas are being obnoxious, AND think that the professional atheists protesting the occasional nativity scene need to get a set of priorities.

[Jenny in Florida]

Has anyone posted this yet?

 

http://www.yvonneconte.com/blog/?p=638

 

It just came up on my Facebook page.

[HS Mom in NC]

I think the atheist billboards (I've seen 2 in my area) aren't directed at religious people.  I think they're directed at the closet atheists who are worried it's not socially acceptable to voice their views and who have no camaraderie with other atheists.  It's a "You're not alone.  We get you. Speak up. " kind of thing.

We found the urologist who did my husband's vasectomy from a billboard. "Discount Dr. Dave's! We slash our prices and your...." 

[NASDAQ]

Sadie, you know, people who write angry books, go on radio stations, launch inane protests against nativity scenes when no1curr.

[LucyStoner]

I don't think I have ever heard of a complaint about a nativity scene on private property.  I think people get irked by them on public property.    I personally don't care (not high on my personal list of Things to Have a Strong Opinion About) but I know there are many people, religious and not, who have a passion for a clear line between church and state and against any appearance of establishing a state religion.  I think that is an understandable concern.  

[SKL]

For what it's worth, I always feel very uncomfortable when people float the idea of forcibly injecting God into anything to do with the government.  That doesn't mean I want God taken out of where it's been all my life.  (On our money, in our pledge, on lots of location names etc.)  But I think it's a terrible idea to push it further.  People of faith don't need that, so it seems to be just a smack at people who aren't Christian.  Seems like they want to pick a fight.  I don't want my elected officials to spend their time picking fights over stuff that helps nobody.

[milovany]

I thought Laura's point earlier was interesting in that regard, though. Where she lives (Great Britain, I believe) there IS a state religion -- Christianity no less -- and yet she says it's no big deal and people keep to their own business.  No one is forcing anything down anyone else's throat or making a big deal about things.  I think it's too late for that in our country, but would that we could have a do-over. 

[zoobie]

I thought Laura's point earlier was interesting in that regard, though. Where she lives (Great Britain, I believe) there IS a state religion -- Christianity no less -- and yet she says it's no big deal and people keep to their own business. No one is forcing anything down anyone else's throat or making a big deal about things. I think it's too late for that in our country, but would that we could have a do-over.

Well, England's state religion is a big reason our country exists. Escaping that was the whole point. It may not be a big deal to some there now, but many, many people were harmed by government interference in the religion of its citizens over the country's history.

[NASDAQ]

I don't think I have ever heard of a complaint about a nativity scene on private property.  I think people get irked by them on public property.    I personally don't care (not high on my personal list of Things to Have a Strong Opinion About) but I know there are many people, religious and not, who have a passion for a clear line between church and state and against any appearance of establishing a state religion.  I think that is an understandable concern. 

 

 

The incident I was thinking of was a nativity scene that was historically set up in a park. I don't think that nativity scenes in parks are a particularly valid concern.

 

YMMV. The atheists I know consider it a perk to be able to avoid worrying about nativity scenes.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I thought Laura's point earlier was interesting in that regard, though. Where she lives (Great Britain, I believe) there IS a state religion -- Christianity no less -- and yet she says it's no big deal and people keep to their own business.  No one is forcing anything down anyone else's throat or making a big deal about things.  I think it's too late for that in our country, but would that we could have a do-over. 

 

Given the basis on which our country was founded, though, I don't see how it could have played out any differently. We were set up from the start to have religion-related conflict.

 

Oops, zoobie beat me to it while DH and I were talking!

[Amber in SJ]

I will admit to not reading all the pages.  In fact, I only read the first two so the discussion may have gone haring off in another direction entirely, but the OP said she was looking for instances so here are mine:

 

1992- My first year as a PS teacher, we had a staff meeting where we were told we were not allowed to wish anyone (parents, students, other teacher etc.)  Merry Christmas.  We were allowed to say Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Solstice or any other holiday greeting but not Merry Christmas because it was "offensive," to others.  I thought it was odd because as a non-Jewish person, I am not offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah.

 

1999- My eldest enters Kindergarten.  Because in my pre-children life I was a live in nanny for a family of Orthodox Jews, I have a beautiful menorah that was a gift when I left.  We celebrate Hanukkah every year.  My daughter mentioned this in class and I was asked to go in and do a presentation on Hanukkah, including the religious aspects of the holiday.  I declined because I thought that would be weird coming from someone not of that faith, but I know the same offer would not have been made had I offered to do a presentation on Christmas.

 

2002- My oldest takes a gift card to her 3rd grade teacher and one to the nice lady at the front office.  Both are returned because the pre-printed envelope says "Merry Christmas," and no one on staff is allowed to accept a gift that has the word Christmas on it.  The teacher tells me in an aside that the teachers have been encouraged to report parents that give holiday gifts that have the word "Christmas" on them and the teachers are supposed to report if they know of another teacher who has accepted a gift that has the word "Christmas" anywhere on the wrapping or on the gift itself.

 

2012- We homeschool through a public charter school and one of the portfolio items that I use to "prove" my dd is learning ASL is a short video of her signing her vocabulary words.  I am careful to remove any religious art from my walls, I have her stand against the blank front door and make sure none of our Christmas tree is showing.  I receive a notice from the office that a tiny smidge of red & green stripe is showing in the corner of the photo.  It is the barest edge of a present.  The office felt that could be construed as a Christmas decoration and whomever opens the video could be offended so my dds ASL final is rejected.

 

2013-We continue to homeschool through the same charter (because we need the $ that's why.)  My son is assigned "We Wish You A Merry Christmas," as a piano piece.  Not a religious song. And my Educational Specialist tells me that she has to report us and our piano teacher for her assigning a song with the word "Christmas" in it.  She can't put the word "Christmas" on anything that goes into his portfolio because any of the auditors could be offended by the word.  Now, my son's other song was "I Have a Little Dreidel" which is not offensive to anyone, apparently. 

 

It is the declaration of the word "Christmas" as offensive that I find baffling.  As I mentioned above, I don't get offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah, so why would someone be offended to be wished Merry Christmas?  Removing the beautiful Nativity from Christmas in the Park is not being inclusive, adding the giant menorah and the huge Aztec statue is inclusive.

 

Amber in SJ

[LucyStoner]

The incident I was thinking of was a nativity scene that was historically set up in a park. I don't think that nativity scenes in parks are a particularly valid concern.

 

A park that is public property though in the instances I am familiar with.  Honestly, I don't really want religious iconography in my city or state parks.  And I like nativity scenes in general.  In people's yards.  In front of churches.  In stores.  I don't personally think that asking that people not put religious symbols on state owned land merits as an attack on religion or people of faith.  

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

The incident I was thinking of was a nativity scene that was historically set up in a park. I don't think that nativity scenes in parks are a particularly valid concern.

 

YMMV. The atheists I know consider it a perk to be able to avoid worrying about nativity scenes.

 

Who paid to set it up in the park? Who purchased the items, paid for the labor, etc.? Is the park public land? Again, it comes back to the separation of church and state. And yes, it seems nitpicky, but it matters to some people--particularly when those people are already feeling alienated and disenfranchised. And those people are entitled to speak up about it, just like the people who post signs reprimanding the public at large about the reason for the season and keeping Christ in Christmas.

[SKL]

I don't personally think that asking that people not put religious symbols on state owned land merits as an attack on religion or people of faith.  

 

I think the government itself should not put up religious symbols.  But if an individual does it as a form of self-expression that would be allowed except for the religious content, then I do think that's restricting freedom of speech / religion.

 

I also wonder about the crosses on the graves of soldiers at national cemeteries.  Assuming the family does not object to it, is this OK?

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I will admit to not reading all the pages.  In fact, I only read the first two so the discussion may have gone haring off in another direction entirely, but the OP said she was looking for instances so here are mine:

 

1992- My first year as a PS teacher, we had a staff meeting where we were told we were not allowed to wish anyone (parents, students, other teacher etc.)  Merry Christmas.  We were allowed to say Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Solstice or any other holiday greeting but not Merry Christmas because it was "offensive," to others.  I thought it was odd because as a non-Jewish person, I am not offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah.

 

1999- My eldest enters Kindergarten.  Because in my pre-children life I was a live in nanny for a family of Orthodox Jews, I have a beautiful menorah that was a gift when I left.  We celebrate Hanukkah every year.  My daughter mentioned this in class and I was asked to go in and do a presentation on Hanukkah, including the religious aspects of the holiday.  I declined because I thought that would be weird coming from someone not of that faith, but I know the same offer would not have been made had I offered to do a presentation on Christmas.

 

2002- My oldest takes a gift card to her 3rd grade teacher and one to the nice lady at the front office.  Both are returned because the pre-printed envelope says "Merry Christmas," and no one on staff is allowed to accept a gift that has the word Christmas on it.  The teacher tells me in an aside that the teachers have been encouraged to report parents that give holiday gifts that have the word "Christmas" on them and the teachers are supposed to report if they know of another teacher who has accepted a gift that has the word "Christmas" anywhere on the wrapping or on the gift itself.

 

2012- We homeschool through a public charter school and one of the portfolio items that I use to "prove" my dd is learning ASL is a short video of her signing her vocabulary words.  I am careful to remove any religious art from my walls, I have her stand against the blank front door and make sure none of our Christmas tree is showing.  I receive a notice from the office that a tiny smidge of red & green stripe is showing in the corner of the photo.  It is the barest edge of a present.  The office felt that could be construed as a Christmas decoration and whomever opens the video could be offended so my dds ASL final is rejected.

 

2013-We continue to homeschool through the same charter (because we need the $ that's why.)  My son is assigned "We Wish You A Merry Christmas," as a piano piece.  Not a religious song. And my Educational Specialist tells me that she has to report us and our piano teacher for her assigning a song with the word "Christmas" in it.  She can't put the word "Christmas" on anything that goes into his portfolio because any of the auditors could be offended by the word.  Now, my son's other song was "I Have a Little Dreidel" which is not offensive to anyone, apparently. 

 

It is the declaration of the word "Christmas" as offensive that I find baffling.  As I mentioned above, I don't get offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah, so why would someone be offended to be wished Merry Christmas?  Removing the beautiful Nativity from Christmas in the Park is not being inclusive, adding the giant menorah and the huge Aztec statue is inclusive.

 

Amber in SJ

 

Even as an atheist, I can agree that the majority of that is asinine. I don't even have any other words for it.

 

 

It is the declaration of the word "Christmas" as offensive that I find baffling. As I mentioned above, I don't get offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah, so why would someone be offended to be wished Merry Christmas? Removing the beautiful Nativity from Christmas in the Park is not being inclusive, adding the giant menorah and the huge Aztec statue is inclusive.

 

Amber in SJ

 

I agree with you about what is inclusive and what isn't. But, how many townships also purchase and erect the giant menorah and the Aztec statue? Not mine, and we have a decent population of Jews in town (and even more Mexicans, I'm sure).

 

[zoobie]

I think the government itself should not put up religious symbols. But if an individual does it as a form of self-expression that would be allowed except for the religious content, then I do think that's restricting freedom of speech / religion.

 

I also wonder about the crosses on the graves of soldiers at national cemeteries. Assuming the family does not object to it, is this OK?

 

If you get a permit for a public demonstration (or whatever the method is for parks), you could set up a nativity scene during your time, but otherwise taking up public space for personal use doesn't fly. You could bedeck your RV as a traveling nativity and take it everywhere.

 

The family of the soldier chooses the headstone, not the government. There was an email forward that went around a few years ago alleging an ACLU lawsuit to remove crosses, but it's fabricated outrage.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I think the government itself should not put up religious symbols.  But if an individual does it as a form of self-expression that would be allowed except for the religious content, then I do think that's restricting freedom of speech / religion.

 

I also wonder about the crosses on the graves of soldiers at national cemeteries.  Assuming the family does not object to it, is this OK?

 

 

Who argued that individuals shouldn't put up religious symbols as self expression? Of course people can put whatever they choose on their own private property (see nmoira's horrifying billboard in an earlier post here). The people who complain are complaining about public property, owned by government entities and managed by employees of said government.

 

If the family doesn't object to the cross, then odds are, they are Christian and appreciate the cross. I imagine any family members of a soldier who is not Christian will say so, and something else will be placed.

[milovany]

Agreed!  Yes, I know our nation was founded largely through a poor combination of religion and government (believe me, having just come through 12 weeks of 1720-1790 American history study, I know! :P ).  It's just interesting to consider how it could happen that there's no full separation of church and state and yet life doesn't fall down all around, on either side.  A girl can dream, can't she? 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Agreed!  Yes, I know our nation was founded largely through a poor combination of religion and government (believe me, having just come through 12 weeks of 1720-1790 American history study, I know! :p ).  It's just interesting to consider how it could happen that there's no full separation of church and state and yet life doesn't fall down all around, on either side.  A girl can dream, can't she? 

 

I figured you actually knew that :lol:

 

Would you prefer that we had a state religion? If so, to what end? Given the statistics (and who the most vocal religious proponents are), it probably wouldn't be yours. How would you feel about that if it were in practice and not theory?

 

Anyway, the Europeans (OK, most of the rest of the world, actually) are less uptight than us about everything. It would be nice if we could ALL take it down a notch, no? :cheers2:  (That's hot cocoa with whipped cream. Mine will have a little Kahlua in it. You can have yours however you like :D)

[LucyStoner]

I think the government itself should not put up religious symbols. But if an individual does it as a form of self-expression that would be allowed except for the religious content, then I do think that's restricting freedom of speech / religion.

 

I also wonder about the crosses on the graves of soldiers at national cemeteries. Assuming the family does not object to it, is this OK?

 

My grandparents are buried in a veteran's cemetery and we went with the cross but there are also other religions represented. When we buried my mother we chose to put a cross and a dove on her marker, though she is in a Catholic cemetery. I think people can understand the difference between memorializing the dead and large religious displays in a park used for many things by many people. Again, this is not my issue but I don't see those who take it serious as being petty minded. I am not against expression in parks but there are limits. I can get a permit to stage a protest about homelessness in the park and use props. I can't leave my props there for a month. I can't expect the government to pay to light the props. I generally will pay a permit fee for all this.

[SKL]

Well anyway, at least we don't have loud calls to prayer five times a day (365 days per year) like they do in some countries....

[albeto.]

I will admit to not reading all the pages.  In fact, I only read the first two so the discussion may have gone haring off in another direction entirely, but the OP said she was looking for instances so here are mine:

 

1992- My first year as a PS teacher, we had a staff meeting where we were told we were not allowed to wish anyone (parents, students, other teacher etc.)  Merry Christmas.  We were allowed to say Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Solstice or any other holiday greeting but not Merry Christmas because it was "offensive," to others.  I thought it was odd because as a non-Jewish person, I am not offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah.

 

When I worked in a a publicly funded preschool, one child's mother came in a gave a presentation to the kids about Hanukkah. Another parent called the principal and demanded to know why the children were being forced to become Jews.

 

My point - anecdotal stories are difficult for me because there are just as absurd stories from the opposite direction. Also, some are just hard to believe.

 

2002- My oldest takes a gift card to her 3rd grade teacher and one to the nice lady at the front office.  Both are returned because the pre-printed envelope says "Merry Christmas," and no one on staff is allowed to accept a gift that has the word Christmas on it.  The teacher tells me in an aside that the teachers have been encouraged to report parents that give holiday gifts that have the word "Christmas" on them and the teachers are supposed to report if they know of another teacher who has accepted a gift that has the word "Christmas" anywhere on the wrapping or on the gift itself.

 

I've worked with public schools who do their damndest to "follow the letter of the law" in a most passive-aggressive way to get their point across. The school I'm thinking of used children as pawns in their games. Your story seems very much to me like that.

 

2012- We homeschool through a public charter school and one of the portfolio items that I use to "prove" my dd is learning ASL is a short video of her signing her vocabulary words.  I am careful to remove any religious art from my walls, I have her stand against the blank front door and make sure none of our Christmas tree is showing.  I receive a notice from the office that a tiny smidge of red & green stripe is showing in the corner of the photo.  It is the barest edge of a present.  The office felt that could be construed as a Christmas decoration and whomever opens the video could be offended so my dds ASL final is rejected.

 

If the colors green and red cannot be shown combination now, I think either you're pulling our leg, or your school district has decided to make things impossible in hopes of angering people to "take back Christianity," or perhaps you've misunderstood the purpose of not supporting one religion in a publicly funded arena and are afraid to do anything. Your home is private, you can have a video with your child playing the piano covered in a great, bit, velvet Jesus gown if she wants. That wouldn't break the law, and I imagine you would have the law on your side should your school district attempt to tell you her assignment cannot be accepted, although legal advice would be best.

 

It is the declaration of the word "Christmas" as offensive that I find baffling.  As I mentioned above, I don't get offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah, so why would someone be offended to be wished Merry Christmas?  Removing the beautiful Nativity from Christmas in the Park is not being inclusive, adding the giant menorah and the huge Aztec statue is inclusive.

 

Amber in SJ

 

I've never heard of a nonchristian complaining they were offended to hear "Merry Christmas." And religious artifacts are removed from public property is when a request is made, and the town or city government determines the alternative (offering equal space to all religious groups interested) simply isn't a practical solution. If you've followed what's going on in Oklahoma, you'll see why. The Ten Commandments statue has caught the attention of the local church of Satanists who want their religion equally represented on the city grounds. A local group of Hindus have decided they want to dedicate equal space to one of their gods as well. Eventually, the city will run out of room. Whose religion will be deemed not important enough to be represented by a secular government compelled to offer no support or obstacle to any religion?

[LucyStoner]

Agreed! Yes, I know our nation was founded largely through a poor combination of religion and government (believe me, having just come through 12 weeks of 1720-1790 American history study, I know! :P ). It's just interesting to consider how it could happen that there's no full separation of church and state and yet life doesn't fall down all around, on either side. A girl can dream, can't she?

What if that government then restricted the Orthodox Church? Or outlawed Christianity? We've btdt and I don't think anyone really wants to go back. In my family long ago but not so very long ago, people have died or nearly so for being Catholic. Separation of church and state is for the protection of the church more than the state IMO.

[StaceyinLA]

Her implication is that if you have no faith in God, then you can't be a good person or live in a moral way, which is purely ridiculous and the whole reason people see atheists as some kind of threat. I don't worship humanity, and I don't support people who hurt other people simply because they're humans.

I would love to know how you got that message from what I said. I said I don't want to put my faith in humanity. Period. I am really tired of my words being twisted. I didn't call the criminals atheists, and I certainly do NOT believe an atheist cannot have morals. This is why I rarely get involved in discussions; no one can take what you put out there at face value.

[zoobie]

Agreed! Yes, I know our nation was founded largely through a poor combination of religion and government (believe me, having just come through 12 weeks of 1720-1790 American history study, I know! :P ). It's just interesting to consider how it could happen that there's no full separation of church and state and yet life doesn't fall down all around, on either side. A girl can dream, can't she?

What benefits would a government religion provide to her citizens? How would we choose which religion? In England, I thought the state religion was the Church of England, not generic "Christianity," with Presbyterian in Scotland and nothing in Ireland because of the messy history with Catholicism. The Queen is the head of the church. Would the President get to be head? So a Jewish person could be head of the [insert whatever Christian sect here]... The church has a seat in Parliament.

 

I personally cannot imagine any benefits and think this would be BIG government. Right now we can worship (or not) in any way we choose. Having an official religion, even if it seems innocuous in the UK currently, only limits our freedom.

[nmoira]

And I like nativity scenes in general. In people's yards. In front of churches. In stores. I don't personally think that asking that people not put religious symbols on state owned land merits as an attack on religion or people of faith.

So do I, though I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's the composition or the implied serenity (though you'd think the animals would be chatty); and there are some beautiful sets, miniature, life size and living (though I'd never support the use of lions and tigers as mentioned in another thread).

 

Every year we go to the Grotto, a local Catholic sanctuary done up for the season with lights and festivities. The kids go right to the petting zoo, but we all enjoy the lights, the carollers, the performances in the chapel, and the living creche. And every year we sit through the somewhat out of place proselytizing puppet show and sip hot chocolate. It's the powdered kind, but it's still nice.

[StaceyinLA]

Maybe you missed the post she deleted where she linked humanism with having anyone that was "less than 10% of the population" views shoved in her face and gay on TV being somehow connected to all this? It went beyond a faith in God to sociopolitical views that honestly have little to do with religion. There are plenty of religious people, including most of the Christians I know, who do not share the social or political views she shared that Flip was responding to.

I deleted that because I realized it wasn't relative to the conversation, and wouldn't be interpreted how I meant it (which, of course, it wasn't based on your paraphrasing) and it has nothing to do with my statements regarding my faith being in God over humanity.

[zoobie]

I will admit to not reading all the pages. In fact, I only read the first two so the discussion may have gone haring off in another direction entirely, but the OP said she was looking for instances so here are mine:

 

1992- My first year as a PS teacher, we had a staff meeting where we were told we were not allowed to wish anyone (parents, students, other teacher etc.) Merry Christmas. We were allowed to say Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Solstice or any other holiday greeting but not Merry Christmas because it was "offensive," to others. I thought it was odd because as a non-Jewish person, I am not offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah.

 

1999- My eldest enters Kindergarten. Because in my pre-children life I was a live in nanny for a family of Orthodox Jews, I have a beautiful menorah that was a gift when I left. We celebrate Hanukkah every year. My daughter mentioned this in class and I was asked to go in and do a presentation on Hanukkah, including the religious aspects of the holiday. I declined because I thought that would be weird coming from someone not of that faith, but I know the same offer would not have been made had I offered to do a presentation on Christmas.

 

2002- My oldest takes a gift card to her 3rd grade teacher and one to the nice lady at the front office. Both are returned because the pre-printed envelope says "Merry Christmas," and no one on staff is allowed to accept a gift that has the word Christmas on it. The teacher tells me in an aside that the teachers have been encouraged to report parents that give holiday gifts that have the word "Christmas" on them and the teachers are supposed to report if they know of another teacher who has accepted a gift that has the word "Christmas" anywhere on the wrapping or on the gift itself.

 

2012- We homeschool through a public charter school and one of the portfolio items that I use to "prove" my dd is learning ASL is a short video of her signing her vocabulary words. I am careful to remove any religious art from my walls, I have her stand against the blank front door and make sure none of our Christmas tree is showing. I receive a notice from the office that a tiny smidge of red & green stripe is showing in the corner of the photo. It is the barest edge of a present. The office felt that could be construed as a Christmas decoration and whomever opens the video could be offended so my dds ASL final is rejected.

 

2013-We continue to homeschool through the same charter (because we need the $ that's why.) My son is assigned "We Wish You A Merry Christmas," as a piano piece. Not a religious song. And my Educational Specialist tells me that she has to report us and our piano teacher for her assigning a song with the word "Christmas" in it. She can't put the word "Christmas" on anything that goes into his portfolio because any of the auditors could be offended by the word. Now, my son's other song was "I Have a Little Dreidel" which is not offensive to anyone, apparently.

 

It is the declaration of the word "Christmas" as offensive that I find baffling. As I mentioned above, I don't get offended when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah, so why would someone be offended to be wished Merry Christmas? Removing the beautiful Nativity from Christmas in the Park is not being inclusive, adding the giant menorah and the huge Aztec statue is inclusive.

 

Amber in SJ

Where do you live? If you're in the US, the ACLU would be able to help you.

[StaceyinLA]

Stacey's post did read like a hissy fit. Which is why I'm walking away. Maybe. Depending on whether or not there's something else I feel a need to say.

Yeah that's exactly what it was, since I'm known to throw those on a regular basis here. Get over it. I realized it wasn't necessary, and I deleted it. You can find something else to attack me about instead.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I would love to know how you got that message from what I said. I said I don't want to put my faith in humanity. Period. I am really tired of my words being twisted. I didn't call the criminals atheists, and I certainly do NOT believe an atheist cannot have morals. This is why I rarely get involved in discussions; no one can take what you put out there at face value.

 

Stacey, I'm saying this from the calmest place possible. I've been involved in discussions with you before. Maybe what you're putting out there is not what you think it is. You may think your words say one thing, but some of us are hearing other things. And your original post, before you deleted it, was several paragraphs longer than, "I don't want to put my faith in humanity. Period."

 

If you'd like to discuss atheism with atheists instead of ranting about it, I'd love to join you. But somehow I don't get the feeling that that's what you want.