What's the benefit of doing grammar before 6th grade?

[pjssully]

I am struggling with when to start grammar for my three children9 and 6.5 twins. Sometimes i think it would be fine to wait til 6th grade and then other times i get really nervous and feel like they should be following a grammar curriculum. What is the benefit of starting "early" and is there any difference in how much they learn in the end?

pam

[8filltheheart]

You'll see many different perspectives.

 

My personal POV is that grammar should be taught from 3rd grade on in conjunction with teaching writing skills. It is hard for me to teach that sentences must form a complete thought including a subject and verb without my children understanding what those are. Teaching them that active voice is more interesting and engaging than passive voice is impossible without their understanding what an action verb is.

 

We do not study grammar for the simple subject material of grammar. Our grammar studies are intertwined with our writing studies.

[Mosaicmind]

:iagree:

After finding out that dd/12, who was in ps last year, does not know her parts of speech I agree that it should be taught starting in 3rd grade. I am using FLL 1/2 with ds/6 and he is on lesson 3 and already knows what a noun is. It doesn't have to be indepth, but at least gives them a grasp about what a noun, verb, pronoun, ect...are and how they make a complete sentence.

[Chloe]

I go back and forth with this myself. My oldest did most of FLL 1/2 in first grade, then no grammar in second grade. She completed GWG 3 in third grade, but then we didn't do much of any last year for fourth. I'm torn between starting R & S or Easy Grammar this year (fifth) or waiting another year and doing something like Analytical Grammar.

 

My ds started Easy Grammar 3 the last half of last year. He has very poor writing skills. I'm wondering if I should continue with the grammar or wait and put extra time into writing for now.

[FloridaLisa]

That reason alone would justify starting grammar in elementary grades for us. We start formal bookwork grammar in 3rd, though I teach parts of speech and many mechanics rules earlier. At that point it might be simply that every sentence must start with a capital and end with an end mark and then learning the end marks.

 

Similarly, grammar study helps a child to speak correctly. Just ask my mom. :001_smile:

 

Actually, though, my first thought was that the middle and high school years have enough work of their own! Why push grammar into those years when your day will already be getting longer with higher math, more reading and writing, language, logic and more formal science.

 

Better to have a solid grammar foundation in place by the middle school years so that you can concentrate more on form, analysis, content and style in writing.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Put it this way, my now 14 yo twin boys were taught very little grammar when they were young...very little. I was ready to choke them by the time they were 10 because they had to be continuously reminded to capitilize and put punctuation endmarks. Grrr.

 

My 11 yob and 9 yob both had copywork and grammar studies. They can write better paragraphs than their older twin brothers!

 

I'm a huge fan of copywork. It has been amazing for my children.

 

Blessings,

 

Camy

[Kathie in VA]

I like to teach it early. I start with the basics since this is when they memorize really well. I used both FLL and Classical Conversations-Foundations and it's really great how much my 8 yo knows. Now as he gets older we'll get to focus on finding these terms in our models, diagramming sentences with them, and writing with them. The classical model of education works for me here.

 

hth

[Peela]

 

Actually, though, my first thought was that the middle and high school years have enough work of their own! Why push grammar into those years when your day will already be getting longer with higher math, more reading and writing, language, logic and more formal science.

 

 

I hadn't thought of this before but I think it is very valid. Some of grammar is memory work, and it is easy to do it in the younger years- and it does make it less of a chore, and less time consuming, when they are older and needing that foundation to write.

I do think the more advanced grammar is very abstract and harder to understand until later- but the basic stuff can be taught easily when younger.

 

In the end, I am not sure its an issue I would die on. People do it both ways, you just have to follow what works for your family.

[rafiki]

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[LN in WI]

I always felt the students should be done with grammar by the end of fifth grade. That way they can focus on composition afterwards.

 

LN

[In The Great White North]

If you're going to start a foreign language before 6th grade, you need grammar before 6th grade too.

 

I don't see grammar as memorization, beyond a few simple definitions. And everyone learns more easily as the mature (up to a point I apparently passed years ago!) So a 6th grader might learn grammar more easily and quickly than a 2nd grader.

 

The problem with waiting is that grammar is fundamental to both writing and foreign languages. You could, theoretically, do enough copy-work for your dc to be able to write a coherent sentence but most of us don't and some dc need the grammar spelled out for them. They will never absorb it intuitively.

 

The second problem is that it is extremely difficult to explain cases, tenses, gender, etc in a foreign language if the child has no idea of what a noun and verb are.

 

The final problem, as I see it, is the issue discussed above of pushig too many subects into high school, where they already don't have enough time.

[ChemMommy]

It's a lot harder to get kids to use punctuation when they've been skipping it for years, too!

 

Much of grammar can be learned by reading, reading, reading! Reading good stuff, though. Not "Junie B. Jones"!!

 

However, kids do need to know the parts of speech, IMHO, before the later elementary years just so you can address writing skills (wow, that sentence is good but would be better with a stronger verb) and foreign language (past tense and first person plural have more meaning if they've heard those terms before).

 

Also, when they are young, they won't fuss with you about learning "rules". Try teaching new rules to a 12 yo is the throes of puberty!

[sweetbaby]

I think a light intro of grammar in the early years progressing to a regular grammar program around grade 3 or 4 is great. It sets the foundation for language and writing later in addition to other studies.:)

[Colleen in NS]

I am struggling with when to start grammar for my three children9 and 6.5 twins. Sometimes i think it would be fine to wait til 6th grade and then other times i get really nervous and feel like they should be following a grammar curriculum. What is the benefit of starting "early" and is there any difference in how much they learn in the end?

pam

 

I agree with the other posters who talked about needing grammar for writing skills and learning foreign languages. Also about the ease of getting it under your belt earlier rather than trying to fit it in when kids are older.

 

Another benefit for grammar study I am now discovering with ds starting grade 5....it's really useful when comparing what different authors of science and history books say about the same subject! Knowing what the parts of speech are, how they are used, and how to diagram a sentence to examine its parts is helping us to closely examine what we are reading. I learned about this usefulness while listening to SWB's Science in the Classical Curriculum, where she talks about doing this type of comparison. It's not that we sit and diagram entire paragraphs or pages or books, but the knowledge gained from grammar study is useful to dissect a sentence or two here and there for further comparison of what two different writers say about a subject.

 

For example:

 

"Humans evolved from apes."

 

"Some scientists believe that humans evolved from apes."

 

At first glance, these two sentences seem to say pretty much the same thing, unless you examine the grammar of them.

 

Sentence 1: simple predicate is "evolved"

 

Sentence 2: simple predicate is "believe"

 

"Evolved" and "believe" are verbs, and have different meanings. So the sentences are actually communicating two completely different thoughts. The first writer thinks evolution from apes is a fact. The second writer thinks that some have a belief in evolution from apes.

 

I think it's good to be able to analyze the grammar of it so you can figure out exactly what the writer is communicating (and thus find out something about his/her worldview) - not what you *think* he/she is communicating. And for us, we are starting this analytical thinking in 5th grade, so I'm glad we started grammar earlier (FLL and R&S).

[Ellie]

It is hard for me to teach that sentences must form a complete thought including a subject and verb without my children understanding what those are.

 

Of course, that assumes that *every* sentence has to form a complete thought *by* including a subject and a verb. For example, "yes" can be a complete thought if you're having a conversation with someone.

 

You can teach a child that his sentences need to make sense without teaching a rule that often has exceptions.

[8filltheheart]

Of course, that assumes that *every* sentence has to form a complete thought *by* including a subject and a verb. For example, "yes" can be a complete thought if you're having a conversation with someone.

 

You can teach a child that his sentences need to make sense without teaching a rule that often has exceptions.

 

I'm not quite sure how that example applies. That example would be taught in context of how to write dialogue and that people's speech is often one word replies or even completely grammatically incorrect. (Huckleberry Finn is a perfect example.)

 

As far as writing in general, my kids aren't allowed to write informally (no 1st person perspectives) except for specific assignments, fiction, etc.

[katilac]

I don't think a great deal of time needs to be spent on grammar in the very early years, but I certainly think a 3rd grader should know the parts of speech, basic punctuation, and complete sentences vs. fragments. A 4th grader should begin applying it with more consistency in their writing, and by the end of 5th grade, a student should be able to write a five-paragraph report with few errors.

 

Starting in 6th grade is way too late, imo. Would the student simply not be writing ANY reports before then? Or would the teacher simply not correct the grammar? By middle school, I was writing fairly lengthy reports and compositions. Term papers started in high school, and 'first draft' did not in any way mean you could turn in a paper fraught with errors.

 

In middle school, students should be concentrating on ratcheting up their writing skills, not learning the very basics of grammar. I have found that habit is a huge factor in grammar skills; the proper forms need to be used early and often to 'stick.'

 

As far as the time involved, there are two factors I would consider.

 

One is that very few people work on grammar daily for the entire year, every year. Most programs would be finished in January or so if done every day, so it is scheduled a couple of times per week or in blocks (this is true of most schools as well).

 

The other is that it takes very little time out of the day. My dd is generally finished with GWG in five to ten minutes; a bit longer if there is a writing exercise. We didn't do formal programs before 4th grade, and the worksheets we did before then took five minutes, tops.

 

So, while I can see not choosing a program that takes 20 minutes a day, every day, I can't see not touching grammar until sixth grade.

[melmac]

For the same reason we study History and Science starting in 1st grade.

 

You give them just enough info to familliarize them with the subject and each year go a little more in depth. Then when they get to 6th grade level they breeze on through.

 

I think this is better than plopping them into a 6th grade text in 6th grade and then expecting them to soak it all up, much less enjoy it.

 

Just my thoughts, HTH. :)

[Jill- OK]

Actually, though, my first thought was that the middle and high school years have enough work of their own! Why push grammar into those years when your day will already be getting longer with higher math, more reading and writing, language, logic and more formal science.

 

Better to have a solid grammar foundation in place by the middle school years so that you can concentrate more on form, analysis, content and style in writing.

 

HTH,

Lisa

 

Exactly.

 

With the writing I expect my older kids to do, the additional grammar instruction would be a heavy burden to bear. (I take the approach of teaching them little bites each year, without expecting that they could ingest it all in a couple of years. I mean, I haven't been successful in learning the rules, etc., as an adult, so I don't feel comfortable expecting that they could. They might be able to, but it's not something I want to chance.)

 

I know that some folks believe in the natural absorption of grammar through reading, and as a voracious reader who now writes for pay, without having had any formal grammar instruction as a kid (that I can remember, anyway), I would seem to be living proof of that.

 

But I'm not confident.

 

Almost every time I send something away to an editor, I cringe, wondering what I've done wrong. (The answer is usually nothing, but still.) I might know the concepts behind several grammar points, but I don't know what they're called. (Couldn't have told you what a gerund was until recently.)

 

I want my kids to know what they know, and I want to concentrate on writing in upper grades, and not have to teach them basic grammar rules.

 

And we live in Oklahoma. They're not growing up hearing the Queen's English spoken on a regular basis. ;-) (So we need to start early, addressing it formally, lol.)

 

(All of that said, if you learned grammar as a kid, speak correctly in your home, and reinforce it until it's second nature with your children, you might be on a different road than I am. I'm just addressing the question from my personal experience.)

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Jill, this is what I was trying to say in my post below (which stated somthing along the lines of choking my boys...LOL).

 

When a good grammar foundation is set by middle school age, the focus can then be placed on writing/compostion skills.

 

I know from experience that when attempting to teach writing to my older, poorly-grammar prepared boys, it occurred to me that we would have a difficult time of it due to the fact that they knew so little about grammar. As their teacher, I became distracted by their errors and felt the need to address them, and this in turn, threw our writing instruction into a tailspin.

 

Live and Learn! Not fun.

 

Blessings,

Camy