33yo guy/16yo girl - is this ever okay?

[Venia]

This supports the point. The *developmental* differences in the earlier years are significant. 12 seems outrageous to you - but not 16? A mere 4 years is major, but 17 between a 16 year old and 33 year old is not?

Yes. Because I would argue that developmental differences are *only* significant in the early years. I would not consider "years on the planet" between two adults a difference in development.

[SKL]

I'm sorry, it would seem the whole point and tone of those posts just flew waaaaaay up and over the rafters for you. Yes. It was all really just us comparing package size. Of course it was.

 

I did get your reference.  I was just trying to be a little light-hearted.  Sigh.  You brought up the organ (no pun intended) after all.

 

[Pod's mum]

Ok thathomeschooldad and spycar, our much loved resident well-trained-dads, would you have been so quick with those rulers if the discussion was distance from nose and navel???

 

 

Now back to the other discussion in hand, did Hesiod in Works and Days recommend that the perfect age gap was the man at 30 and the girl 4 years past first period (or womanhood)?

ETA: very coy, "let your wife have been grown up four years and marry her in the fifth"

 

And we all know how important equality between the sexes was in that society. It's a while since I read it, I'll go and check.

 

Found it....

TRADITIONAL CUSTOMS

[695] Bring home a wife to your house when you are of the right age, while you are not far short of thirty years nor much above; this is the right age for marriage. Let your wife have been grown up four years, and marry her in the fifth. Marry a maiden, so that you can teach her careful ways, and especially marry one who lives near you, but look well about you and see that your marriage will not be a joke to your neighbours. For a man wins nothing better than a good wife, and, again, nothing worse than a bad one, a greedy soul who roasts her man without fire, strong though he may be, and brings him to a raw old age.

 

So even then, in that society, the wife should be several years into womanhood.

 

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't know if it is 'ok' or not, but in my state it is not legal for a man of that age to have sex with a child of 16.

 

And what is 'ok'? I don't know what that means.

 

After 10 years of working as an advocate for sexually abuse children and teenagers I have bit of perspective on this. When I started that job, I didn't much like the idea of a 16 year old and a, let's say 25 year old guy, but I could understand how it happened. But, as I mentioned, I worked in that job for 10 years. And that guy who was 25 and dating a 16 year old usually showed up again a few years later, now 27 years old. Only the new girlfriend is still 16. So, that gets dealt with and maybe a child is born this time. And now his name comes up again only how he is 30 and, yep, the girl is still 16. I saw it again and again and again and again. And again. Those men always came back older, but the girls stayed the same age.

[extendedforecast]

Nm

[Spy Car]

Ok thathomeschooldad and spycar, our much loved resident well-trained-dads, would you have been so quick with those rulers if the discussion was distance from nose and navel???

 

Of course not!

 

What do you take us for, weirdos? :D

 

Bill

[AimeeM]

I think comparing a 12 year old to 16 year old is a bit far fetched. Might as well make it a 10 or even a 5 year old or a baby. No one is arguing for p*dophilia here. Like many have stated, 16 is the legal age of consent in the vast majority of states. I would even argue that at age 16 you are legally able to drive and hold a full-time job, both being major benchmarks of maturity/adulthood. While I agree that 18 would be a better age to make that kind of decision on a relationship, I am simply arguing that in many ways a 16 year old is considered "old enough" to make a decision for themselves. That cannot be said of a 12 year old.

 

If you're arguing practicality over legalities, in many countries 12 year olds are considered perfectly capable of making these kinds of decisions, having children, holding down a full time job, etc.

 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Ok thathomeschooldad and spycar, our much loved resident well-trained-dads, would you have been so quick with those rulers if the discussion was distance from nose and navel???

 

Were it a thread about cookies?  Yes.  A thread about statutory rape?  Not so much.

[Joanne]

It is absolutely alarming how many here, and in our culture in general, refer to 16 yo as children. On the other hand, maybe the 16 year olds raised by such parents *are* being raised to be helpless children at 16 and 18, and 21. This is an interesting read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Mickey-goodman/are-we-raising-a-generati_b_1249706.html

 

I know an 18 yo university student whose parents help him with homework every night, and call his professors when they think his papers are graded unfairly.

 

And there are children like this 13 year old TED presenter:

 

Red herring(s).

 

It's quite a leap to go from people asserting that 16 year olds should not date 33 year olds to be "helpless children at 16, 18, and 21".

 

You'll find my history of posting here reveals a great deal of respect for developmental reality and age. I often post in support of age appropriate autonomy with respect to sex, media, school work, healthcare, friends, and priorities. I would never call a 16 year old a baby, and rarely even a child except in the literal sense of being a child of a parent. I frequently post in favor of 16 year olds being able to make increasingly more independant decisions. I have often mentioned that they are nearing adulthood and need to be coached with respect and intentionality about adult decisions (such as sex).

 

And yet, 16 is neurobiologically 16. 33 year olds have a developed brain AND more than a decade of adult living - these are critical years in terms of life experience.

 

While I do not automatically assume that there is pathology in the 33 year old pursuing a relationship with a 16 year old, I am going to guess that a higher percentage of pathology exists in that scenario. Like a previous poster pointed out (a poster experienced in sexual predatory realities), a statistically significant percentage of these same adults keep searching the same age group. This implies something about the *age* and not the person.

 

Just like I do not assume male babysitters to be suspect, I am more wary and concerned because statistically, they are more likely to be predators. So are older children who have been victims themselves.

 

It is not only reasonable to be wary of that age difference at that age, it is biologically supported. Even mature 16 year olds (and mature 18 year olds and mature 22 year olds) are not fully developed. Not from a *brain* standpoint - they may be phsysio-sexually developed, including hormones. But the biological facts are that the prefrontal cortex is not hard wired, connected or developed.

 

Guess what happens in the prefrontal cortex? Decision making.

[SKL]

The OP's question was:  is this ever OK.  Not:  is this always / usually OK.

 

I think all of us agree that there are many circumstances in which it's not OK.  But not ever OK?  That's too black and white for me - at age 16.

 

I would also note that as far as I know, it isn't an established fact that they were having sex when she was 16.  Also, we don't know whether she just turned 16 or was about to turn 17 - which IMO makes a difference as well.  17 is when my mom got married, and she was ready to decide to be married.  (Actually she decided when she was 15 but waited until she was 17 to make it legal.)

 

I would also say that in the present case, we are not talking about marriage AFAIK.  It seems this young woman was free to walk away at any time that she may have decided the relationship was not a good thing.  At that point, what was lost?  Possibly her virginity, but how is that different from if she had been sexually active with another person the same age?  Do we know that he did some horrible things to her that were permitted only as a result of his relative power over her?  I mean, sure, it's possible, but I think it's a bit much to assume it must be so.

[Acorn]

I will admit that I have no idea who Paul Walker was.  I assume that he was wealthy and had celebrity status at the time he became involved with the 16 year old.  I think it is creepy all the way around, but I think it is worse that there was a power differential.

[Trish]

Well I lean towards no, however when the "child" turns 18 in 2 years she/he is free to be with the 33 year old.  How is this suddenly more appropriate (other than from a legal standpoint)?

 

The maturity level of an 18 year old vs a 16 year old.

 

Just as it's "suddenly more appropriate" for 16 year olds to drive, vs 14-year-olds.

[SKL]

I've never been a fan of arbitrary age cutoffs.  I understand we need them in some situations, but they are supposed to reflect a group norm, not determine individual maturity.

[Jennifer3141]

Nope. It's NEVER ok. It's simply gross.

 

And I have to disagree with the person who stated that homeschool kids are more likely to marry older people. That age differential works BOTH ways in homeschooling so you could argue that homeschool kids are more likely to marry younger as well.

 

But as a homeschooling mother of a 9 year old girl, I can tell you that there will be NO 30 year old freak hanging out with my 16 year old daughter EVER. And whoever tries better pray to all the gods that ever lived that he deals with me and not DH.

[Joanne]

Nope. It's NEVER ok. It's simply gross.

 

And I have to disagree with the person who stated that homeschool kids are more likely to marry older people. That age differential works BOTH ways in homeschooling so you could argue that homeschool kids are more likely to marry younger as well.

 

But as a homeschooling mother of a 9 year old girl, I can tell you that there will be NO 30 year old freak hanging out with my 16 year old daughter EVER. And whoever tries better pray to all the gods that ever lived that he deals with me and not DH.

 

I'm sorry, but could you be more clear on where you stand? ;)

[redsquirrel]

Homeschool kids tend to marry older people? Huh? How is that argument constructed? Where is the proof of that?

[mytwomonkeys]

No. IMO one is an adult and the other needs adult supervision. The age gap at those ages is too big. My daughter will be 13 & I can't imagine her with a man that age in a few years.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Homeschool kids tend to marry older people? Huh? How is that argument constructed? Where is the proof of that?

 

While I can see the point that HS kids are exposed to a wider age range than "just their grade," and HS kids play and interact across ages in ways that are not typical in school settings.  I also fail to see the connection to marrying older partners.

 

If anything, the well-rounded, self-assured, grounded HSer (speaking in generalities and ideals here) would, I hope, be less likely to be that 18 year old who marries an old dude.

[ErinE]

Even with the most well-adjusted, responsible teens I've known, I still would not say an extremely mature sixteen year old is capable of an equal relationship with a person significantly older. There's just too much life experience difference. From my observations of relationships between a sixteen year old and a person only 4-5 years older, it was clearly apparent that there were maturity and preference issues on the older person's part. It wouldn't surprise me that, on average, relationships with such a big difference between a teen and much older adult suffer from unhealthy dynamics.

 

I've read the posts here where it has worked out for other boardies. I wonder if your sixteen year old talked about dating someone twice his or her age, would you still be comfortable? Or would the situation raise concerns and you'd want to supervise the relationship closely? For me, I can't imagine a scenario where I would be okay with it, and I'd expect anyone so much older who wants a relationship with my sixteen year old would wait until he or she was legally an adult and capable of making the decision.

[SKL]

I can't imagine my mom or dad telling me who I could and could not be friendly with when I was a 16yo college student.

 

I was not "in need of adult supervision" at that age.  Guidance, sure.  Supervision?  I was practically raising my younger siblings at that age.

 

I was also trustworthy enough at that age that I would not do something with a jerk that would ruin my life.  It wasn't until I was much older that I engaged in even slightly risky romantic behavior.

 

So, to me "creepy" is treating/protecting a 16yo young woman as if she were six.

 

Then again, my parents probably remembered when they were teens and how intelligent / capable / responsible they were at that time.

[SKL]

I've read the posts here where it has worked out for other boardies. I wonder if your sixteen year old talked about dating someone twice his or her age, would you still be comfortable? Or would the situation raise concerns and you'd want to supervise the relationship closely?

 

I would hope to have an open dialogue with my daughter so that I could ascertain whether she was safe in the relationship or not.  Hopefully I would know my kid well enough to judge whether she was mature enough to make her own friends in the first place.  My kids are much younger, but I do expect that when they are 16, they will be essentially adults in most ways.  That is my hope, and one could even say goal.  When they are old enough to legally go off on their own, I want them to be able to assess and solve adult problems.  If at 16 I can't trust them to make their own friends and be smart about their own bodies, that will really concern me.

[ErinE]

I can't imagine my mom or dad telling me who I could and could not be friendly with when I was a 16yo college student.

 

I was not "in need of adult supervision" at that age. Guidance, sure. Supervision? I was practically raising my younger siblings at that age.

 

I was also trustworthy enough at that age that I would not do something with a jerk that would ruin my life. It wasn't until I was much older that I engaged in even slightly risky romantic behavior.

 

So, to me "creepy" is treating/protecting a 16yo young woman as if she were six.

 

Then again, my parents probably remembered when they were teens and how intelligent / capable / responsible they were at that time.

Perhaps "monitor" would be a better word than "supervise". And yes, unless by some extremely off chance my child is legally emancipated from me and DH, I would still expect some level of involvement, whether my child is in college or not. My legal (and emotional) responsibility doesn't end simply because my child has graduated high school.

 

But it still doesn't answer the question. Your sixteen year old daughter comes to you and says she wants to date man twice her age. You wouldn't have raised eyebrows? See red flags? Expect to know more? Be leery of allowing the relationship to continue?

[mytwomonkeys]

I can't imagine my mom or dad telling me who I could and could not be friendly with when I was a 16yo college student.

 

I was not "in need of adult supervision" at that age. Guidance, sure. Supervision? I was practically raising my younger siblings at that age.

 

I was also trustworthy enough at that age that I would not do something with a jerk that would ruin my life. It wasn't until I was much older that I engaged in even slightly risky romantic behavior.

 

So, to me "creepy" is treating/protecting a 16yo young woman as if she were six.

 

Then again, my parents probably remembered when they were teens and how intelligent / capable / responsible they were at that time.

My daughter will turn 16 when she is a sophomore in high school. Yes. She will need supervision. I will be asking what time will she be home? Where she is going? Who will she be with? Supervision changes with maturity of course, but it doesn't dissipate at 16.

[SKL]

But it still doesn't answer the question. Your sixteen year old daughter comes to you and says she wants to date man twice her age. You wouldn't have raised eyebrows? See red flags? Expect to know more? Be leery of allowing the relationship to continue?

 

Of course I would expect to know more.  If I have any kind of decent relationship with my kid, that will include meeting and getting to know the guy, and having heart-to-hearts about things that may concern her or me.  Also, I will have already told her many times that I don't think it's healthy for young people (including very young adults) to have sex, at least until they are 100% sure this is the guy they are going to marry and be able to give any offspring a good life.

 

I would be "leery" of forbidding a relationship to continue at that age.  Short of illegally imprisoning my kid, that would be impossible to enforce anyway.  It would be read as disrespectful and controlling.  Not smart IMO.

[poppy]

I find it a little unseemly to be trashing a man who recently died, especially since he and the young woman were in a long-term happy relationship.

 

I also find it troubling that so many people saying it's NEVER ok when it  is actually a fairly common practice in many heavily populated parts of the world.  I'm not saying it's acceptable in my own culture or what I'd want for girls I know. But condemning a huge portion of the marriages in the developing world as "unacceptable" is pretty uncomfortable.

[Dory]

I actually called the authorities over a relationship like this before. He was too old, and she, although mature for her age, was still in a situation where she lacked the skills to make the decisions. He manipulated her, although nicely, and many would've (and did) leave it alone, but she asked me for help trying to think through things, and I helped her out. I'm all about helping teenagers take control of their lives and move towards independence, but some things they simply lack the mental (brain) maturity to handle yet.

I was 19 and my dh was 32 when we were married. Looking back I can see the issues that were there. He was insecure and had some major issues that made him gravitate towards younger or more immature girls. They made him feel more in control. I had a huge closet full of issues that made me gravitate towards someone older that made me feel secure. And after all, if an older likes me that must say something about my maturity level right? (not). All in all, I would say NO, NEVER is it ok for a 16yo to date a 33yo. If they were both adults and still had that age gap, it would be different though.

[Joanne]

I find it a little unseemly to be trashing a man who recently died, especially since he and the young woman were in a long-term happy relationship.

 

I also find it troubling that so many people saying it's NEVER ok when it  is actually a fairly common practice in many heavily populated parts of the world.  I'm not saying it's acceptable in my own culture or what I'd want for girls I know. But condemning a huge portion of the marriages in the developing world as "unacceptable" is pretty uncomfortable.

 

Actually there is very little about Mr. Walker and his girlfriend. The thread has been about age differences in general and their impact at early ages.

 

I'm not sure that your "fairly common practice in heavily populated parts of the world" is accurate, but I do know it's not an automatic defense of the practice.

[Guest submarines]

I would hope to have an open dialogue with my daughter so that I could ascertain whether she was safe in the relationship or not.  Hopefully I would know my kid well enough to judge whether she was mature enough to make her own friends in the first place.  My kids are much younger, but I do expect that when they are 16, they will be essentially adults in most ways.  That is my hope, and one could even say goal.  When they are old enough to legally go off on their own, I want them to be able to assess and solve adult problems.  If at 16 I can't trust them to make their own friends and be smart about their own bodies, that will really concern me.

 

:iagree: :hurray:

 

And this applies to any relationship, be it with it with a 16 yo, 18 yo, or an "old dude". I hope to have an open dialogue. Some dudes are creepy at 16. It is not the age, it is the basic decency of an individual.

 

Though mind you, when I met my DH who was 26, he didn't seem to be like an "old dude" at all. :laugh:

 

An older partner doesn't necessarily mean power imbalance. Quite the contrary, this could lead to a more balanced partnership, when the two complement each other and their perspective intermesh.

[redsquirrel]

I find it a little unseemly to be trashing a man who recently died, especially since he and the young woman were in a long-term happy relationship.

 

I also find it troubling that so many people saying it's NEVER ok when it  is actually a fairly common practice in many heavily populated parts of the world.  I'm not saying it's acceptable in my own culture or what I'd want for girls I know. But condemning a huge portion of the marriages in the developing world as "unacceptable" is pretty uncomfortable.

 

When it comes to the treatment and status of women and girls in the 'developing world as well as the developed, there are a whole lot of things I am very comfortable condemning.

 

[Guest submarines]

But it still doesn't answer the question. Your sixteen year old daughter comes to you and says she wants to date man twice her age. You wouldn't have raised eyebrows? See red flags? Expect to know more? Be leery of allowing the relationship to continue?

 

With my DD I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted to date an older man. She's always been an old soul. Though I'd also be surprised if she wanted to date at 16, but one never knows.

 

My 16 yo dating, in general--of course I'd expect to know more. I'm hoping to have good communication with DD.

 

In other words, if she came to me at 16 and suddenly announced that she was dating (doesn't matter who and what age), and that announcement caught me by surprise, I'd see red flags. Because that would be an indication of a communication break down between us.

 

But if our communication lines are open, and we have a good relationship, and she's emotionally stable and healthy, I'd trust her to be able to decide for herself who she wants to date, and I'd guide her appropriately. If a particular individual (no matter his or her age) raised red flags in me, I'd share my concerns with her.

[Χά�ων]

What an interesting conversation.

 

My DS has several 16-17 year old friends. I will NEVER date any of them. I have no reason to even consider it. Bit creepy, I think.

[Acorn]

I find it a little unseemly to be trashing a man who recently died, especially since he and the young woman were in a long-term happy relationship.

 

I also find it troubling that so many people saying it's NEVER ok when it  is actually a fairly common practice in many heavily populated parts of the world.  I'm not saying it's acceptable in my own culture or what I'd want for girls I know. But condemning a huge portion of the marriages in the developing world as "unacceptable" is pretty uncomfortable.

 

Another couple to think about,

 

There was a teacher in Montana sentenced to 30 days in jail for raping a student.  The judge gave the sentence because in the judge's words the (now deceased) student "was older than her age" of 14.

 

The age difference is not okay. 

[saraha]

I think they were trying to account for different torso lengths.

 

(I did have to get a meter stick out to confirm that one -- doesn't every HSer have one in the dining room corner?)

 

Why yes, that is exactly where we keep our yardstick!  I was so caught off guard by that, that I had to reply!

[poppy]

Actually there is very little about Mr. Walker and his girlfriend. The thread has been about age differences in general and their impact at early ages.

 

I'm not sure that your "fairly common practice in heavily populated parts of the world" is accurate, but I do know it's not an automatic defense of the practice.

 

Sure it's about Mr. Walker, the OP said she started this thread based on learning of his relationship.  Discussion of how wrong it is have such a relationship, even in posts that do not directly mention actor, are not completely unrelated.

 

For stats about how common it is, see this wikipedia entry. Note that statistics are only gathered for the girls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage ("child marriage" is defined as marriage before age 18).

[poppy]

When it comes to the treatment and status of women and girls in the 'developing world as well as the developed, there are a whole lot of things I am very comfortable condemning.

 

 

Sure, me too.  But every single marriage with this age split, everywhere in the world, is worth of condemnation?

[Kathryn]

Sure it's about Mr. Walker, the OP said she started this thread based on learning of his relationship. Discussion of how wrong it is have such a relationship, even in posts that do not directly mention actor, are not completely unrelated.

 

For stats about how common it is, see this wikipedia entry. Note that statistics are only gathered for the girls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage ("child marriage" is defined as marriage before age 18).

Once again, NO IT'S NOT. I said that reading about it without the article's author noting it as strange made me start thinking about the topic in general. I also said I had a family member in a similar situation. I found it equally strange that nobody in my family was saying the obvious about him (although he wasn't HER teacher, he was a high school teacher, and as a teen myself at the time, it creeped me out). I wondered if my feelings on the subject of someone in their 30s dating a not-yet-legal-adult were atypical.

[mytwomonkeys]

Sure it's about Mr. Walker, the OP said she started this thread based on learning of his relationship.  Discussion of how wrong it is have such a relationship, even in posts that do not directly mention actor, are not completely unrelated.

 

For stats about how common it is, see this wikipedia entry. Note that statistics are only gathered for the girls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage ("child marriage" is defined as marriage before age 18).

 

well, it wasn't about paul walker when i was answering.  honestly, i think they seemed like a handsome couple & my heart does go out to his girlfriend.  i find it tragic.

 

my answer was based on the general idea of a 32 year old & a 16 year old being romantically involved.  waiting until the teenager is more mature and at least 18 is not an absurd notion to me.  for my family, the 2 years that some find arbitrary is the difference between my daughter being in 10th grade and a high school graduate.  

 

my daughter (being only 12) & trying to imagine how i would feel regarding a 32 year old man having a romantic interest in her 4 years from now is what i based my answer on.  likewise, i can't imagine a grown man that age liking one of her friends...or my nieces...or any other young girl i actually know. it would involve time to accept it & for me to trust the man.  it would be very worrisome for me initially.  in the end it's my daughter's life though, and my husband and i would adjust with time.

 

likewise if my son at the age of 32 decides to be involved with a 16 year old, i would react the same way.

[Pod's mum]

With reference to the home educated kids more likely to pair up with someone (significantly) older:

My dd,pre-teen had an MEP maths question that involved a set number of adults and ? children getting tickets for a set amount.

The next question asked how many friends tickets could be bought with a set amount of money.

DD was thrown because it didn't specify numbers of adults vs children were listed among the friends.

I had to explain that as the question was designed for school children, they would presume all the friends were children.

It was a bizare concept for dd.

So maybe this would translate to being un-ageist later.

 

Actually her schooled cousins have adult friends too, so there goes that theory.

 

However it wouldn't change the child/adult disjuct that I see with one of them still entering adulthood.

Adult relationships are for adults.

 

 

[bettyandbob]

Sure it's about Mr. Walker, the OP said she started this thread based on learning of his relationship.  Discussion of how wrong it is have such a relationship, even in posts that do not directly mention actor, are not completely unrelated.

 

For stats about how common it is, see this wikipedia entry. Note that statistics are only gathered for the girls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage ("child marriage" is defined as marriage before age 18).

 

 

My answer was not based on Mr. Walker. The first post does not mention Mr. Walker and the OP has explained more than once that she meant the question as a general response not specific to Mr. Walker. 

[Kathryn]

I'm also looking at this as someone now in my mid-thirties and cannot possibly imagine having romantic feelings for someone in that age bracket. I just can't fathom someone my age being interested in someone that is still legally a child. And if I heard that one of my friends or acquaintances was involved with a 16yo, I would be pretty horrified.

[momto10blessings]

Yes!

I'm also looking at this as someone now in my mid-thirties and cannot possibly imagine having romantic feelings for someone in that age bracket. I just can't fathom someone my age being interested in someone that is still legally a child. And if I heard that one of my friends or acquaintances was involved with a 16yo, I would be pretty horrified.