If you're using multiple math programs, how are you doing it?

[DesertBlossom]

I appreciate all the help and advice over in my "Saxon vs Singapore" thread, despite how intense that got.  :001_huh:  I'm feeling good about using Singapore as our main curriculum (even though I have yet to see it IRL) but of course all this talk of LoF and BA and others has me curious. Math is definitely one of DS's strengths. I enjoyed math as a kid (until I got to calculus) and it was my favorite subject to teach when I taught 5th grade. So the only thing keeping me from buying up all of these amazing sounding programs is my wallet. I haven't yet decided if I am going to homeschool my other kids, but it's something to keep in mind as I buy.

 

So my question is... if you're using more than one program, what are you using and how are you doing it?  Do you use one at a time? Do you use worksheets from one program to supplement a similar lesson in another? 

 

I was thinking about buying a LoF book to try out until I read that you should start at A regardless of age or ability and I'm not sure I want to throw down another $150 on supplemental books... unless it really is that amazing. (I wish I could see these somewhere before I buy online)

 

I was thinking about buying just a BA practice book until I read that's a giant no-no!  <_< But having 2 textbooks seemed kind of overkill... so thinking about all of this is what prompted the question.

[Crimson Wife]

FWIW, I was not particularly impressed by the LoF elementary books that I saw at our support group's last curriculum fair. They seemed very "light", not at all like the middle & high school books. I decided to pass on them.

 

Singapore is our "spine" but I do supplement with the BA books for DS. For the topics that are in BA but not SM, he completes all of the practice exercises. For the topics where the two curricula overlap, I select the more challenging or "out-of-the-box" problems from BA. BA could theoretically be a complete curriculum by itself, but it's not complete yet (only 3A-4A are out yet, with 4B due I believe sometime towards the end of 2013.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I appreciate all the help and advice over in my "Saxon vs Singapore" thread, despite how intense that got. :001_huh: I'm feeling good about using Singapore as our main curriculum (even though I have yet to see it IRL) but of course all this talk of LoF and BA and others has me curious. Math is definitely one of DS's strengths. I enjoyed math as a kid (until I got to calculus) and it was my favorite subject to teach when I taught 5th grade. So the only thing keeping me from buying up all of these amazing sounding programs is my wallet. I haven't yet decided if I am going to homeschool my other kids, but it's something to keep in mind as I buy.

 

So my question is... if you're using more than one program, what are you using and how are you doing it? Do you use one at a time? Do you use worksheets from one program to supplement a similar lesson in another?

 

I was thinking about buying a LoF book to try out until I read that you should start at A regardless of age or ability and I'm not sure I want to throw down another $150 on supplemental books... unless it really is that amazing. (I wish I could see these somewhere before I buy online)

 

I was thinking about buying just a BA practice book until I read that's a giant no-no! <_< But having 2 textbooks seemed kind of overkill... so thinking about all of this is what prompted the question.

I sincerely apologize for helping to derail your thread by adding fuel to what is a very old argument here.

 

We use a spine math program along with lots of other single volume supplements. I do not line up supplements to correlate. I tried that for a while and it was just plain exhausting.

 

With Singapore, you have a tried-and-true, multi-faceted program that will foster deep connections (especially using the IP/CWP). I began supplementing because my oldest craved more problem/puzzle-based mathematical thinking (and there is a very long story here about losing/regaining math love that I won't bore you with). You have picked a great place to start based on what you already know about your child, and it is easy enough to add more if desired when you find your groove.

 

I agree that the BA practice books are not much good without the text. You could supplement with the text and not use the practice, but I personally would not recommend that either because where the beauty of the text is the format and presentation, the beauty of the practice books is the masterful presentation of challenging problems. In your shoes, I would have my child look at samples and if they are attractive, just get the 3A TB/WB combo to see how it goes. The BA textbook would absolutely not be overkill though! They are the best thing going. My kids read them for pleasure reading, even at bedtime. LOL My oldest was past BA when it came out, and he still worked/works through it all.

 

You can see samples of LoF online. http://www.stanleyschmidt.com/FredGauss/31samplepages.html I think Rainbow Resource may have samples too.

[freerange]

MEP is strong on conceptual understanding, so complements Singapore materials well, plus you can just print off the bits you want so the cost is minimal. Definately look at the lesson plans, not just the worksheets.

 

Edward Zaccaro's books are great fun to use, but that can mean you need to watch them carefully if you want to space it out. For example, DD2 went off to read the first chapter of Ten Things All Future Mathematicians & Scientists Must Know (but are rarely taught) & 'accidentally' finished the book.

 

As to how - in the early years we just worked through each book we wanted to use, switching between them when we felt like a change. Now that we're heading towards exams (we're in the UK & working toward IGCSEs) we use one book as a spine & add in other resources when I think they add interest or explain something better.

 

And no, I don't think having two textbooks is overkill - you don't only have one cookery book, do you?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I use multiple math programs, and I actually do line them up, mostly, but I'm an anal-retentive overplanner that way!  :lol:

 

We have used MM as our spine, which is similar to Singapore.  We've used various supplements to deepen and add interesting/challenging problem-solving opportunities - so the Zaccaro books, for example, I will assign along with or at the end of the MM chapter that covers that topic.  I have a spreadsheet with multiple columns lining up different programs to the MM spine . . . it's a beast.

 

I don't make any effort to line up LOF, though.  That would be impossible! It's way too random.  Is LOF worth it? I find myself mulling over that one now.  For my 4th grader coming home from ps with math anxiety, it was really worth it, she blew through the whole Elementary series that year, and it really did make math fun and playful and relaxed, which is what she needed at that particular point in time.  My current 2nd grader does the Elementary series, she's in Edgewood now, as a supplement - i.e. when she feels like it, we do a couple of chapters.  She likes it ok, but isn't super attached to it.  If she loses interest I won't push it, I don't see it adding something unique for her, the way it did for her sister.

 

Older dd did Fractions & Decimals in 5th grade, and is doing PreAw/ Bio now.  What I like about those 3 books is that they provide a nice spiral review of concepts - which can be revisited randomly at any time - which is a nice complement to the mastery presentation in MM.

 

As far as BA goes, Older dd was a little too old for it, though she did do the Geometry chapters in BA 3A at the beginning of 5th grade.  It was wonderful, I very much preferred the presentation of geometry in BA.  For my younger dd, who is almost halfway through MM2 now, I definitely plan to use BA when she finishes MM2.  She likes MM and it works well for her, but I want her to have what BA offers from the beginning.  I will probably end up marrying the two (MM3 & BA3) - that's just how I roll - but I can't say exactly how that will look.  What I anticipate right now is that I'll have her do all of BA, and the portions of MM that BA doesn't include (time, money, etc.) and use MM for things like reviews, chapter tests, and for extra practice on anything she needs . . . but that could change, I could decide to keep MM as the spine and use BA as a supplement.  Time will tell.

 

One thing I think now, two years in, is that my younger dd's math journey might be a bit more streamlined and simplified than my older's - with older, I was trying to play catch up, trying to sample & use every cool thing that was out there . . . she has benefitted from the variety and I have worked hard to keep it coherent, but I'm sure it's overkill in some cases.  With my little one, I'm hoping that the MM/BA combo takes us through to 6th grade with no holes, and without much need of supplementing beyond what those two offer.  I think they will be complementary.

 

But if I need the supplements, I sure got 'em!  :laugh:  :huh:

[DesertBlossom]

I sincerely apologize for helping to derail your thread by adding fuel to what is a very old argument here.

 

 

Hey, no worries. The back and forth was actually rather interesting. I learned a lot from the thread. 

[SierraNevada]

I always wondered this myself...but as we have amassed different books (and right now are taking a break from all of them) I have found that having one place to work problems out of be it SM or BA, and one book that is just fun reading (LoF or BA) - stuff your kid will take to bed with them and read but not necessarily to do the problems. For us I think SM will be the spine so to speak, and BA is just bedtime reading, where we might work a couple problems out of the practice book once a week for a break, but not really do it straight through. It really is becoming a problem that there are so many great math programs out there...it makes it way too easy to end up with more math book than one needs or ought  or can do. They all have their strengths, but it is just too much math for one kid to do - especially if they don't need all the repetition to get things. Once we start up with math again, we will do SM...and BA is now, and will be then, just a fun comic book basically. 

[quark]

I didn't use a dedicated spine. I sort of rotated them around with just fixed goals like okay, for the next few weeks we will focus on fractions and one more concept etc. It does make for confusing planning/ organization of materials but I didn't know what else to do given DS's feedback.

 

We basically did a few weeks (say 5-6 weeks) of SM with a living math and another supplement for practice e.g. MEP until we completed a few SM chapters. Then we did a few months of MEP with SM and MM as the supplement and living math for free reading until we finished a certain amount of MEP pages. Then we did MM for a while as the regular math and used MEP to supplement and so on. MEP was such a wonderful puzzle like program that we often came back to it either as the core or supplement. And I know how most people caution you to use the teacher's lesson plans. Well using lesson plans totally bored DS out of his mind. So I just used the practice sheets and he was very happy with that. My learning goals could be different from most people? My focus was always to prevent boredom, keep him excited about learning etc. Oh, I was worried about how much we were covering (didn't seem like a lot at the time lol) but it was secondary to his happiness with the materials and method.

 

I also did two or three sessions of math per day. each for about 15 minutes. One in the morning, one just before or after lunch and one later in the day. One session could have been MEP, the others SM and logic puzzles, or any combo of MEP, SM, MM, LOF (we only used fractions, decimals, percents), puzzles, living math and miscellaneous materials we found online or in bookstores. Really for an intuitive learner the variety was what pulled him away from boredom with math and transformed a gradual dislike of practice problems to one of delight. That and using the whiteboard to solve problems and have him teach the concepts back to me using our own funny, made-up problems.

 

ETA: This method seems to have worked for him anyway. When he started algebra at 8, he had gaps in decimals, percents, ratios and proportion and also with measurements. I continued splitting math into two sessions a day. One for algebra homework, then MM, LOF and the Key To workbooks or real life math situations for addressing whatever the most major gap of the time was. When he finished algebra and moved on to geometry, the two sessions were covering geometry and problem solving. I think most of the pressing arithmetic gaps have been addressed now. The problem solving practice that he does with AoPS/ logic puzzles/ math circle or other books once or twice a week maintains that part of math i.e. he has consistent practice.

 

Letting him explore math concepts way ahead of his arithmetic gaps was I think the #1 reason he loves math so much and is also willing to work hard at it.

[mom2bee]

There are nice samples of the LoF available on the website, it looks like each and every book has a sample of ~20 pages, though I didn't look at all of them.

[momma2three]

We're not accelerated, so I don't know if I'm qualified to answer, but we're doing MEP and Math Mammoth.  DD does Math Mammoth 3 days a week, and then we do MEP two days a week.  There are 4 lessons per week for MEP, so we do 2 a day, and one on one it works out to not actually being all that much... so much classroom interaction is built into the program that with just 1 student we can get each lesson done very quickly.  (For example, it might allow 10 minutes to ask the kids to find something on the number line... meaning that the teacher should call on as many kids as possible to make sure they all understand what they're doing.  With just one kid, it takes less than 1 minute to ask them to find a couple of numbers.)

 

We did about half of the first Life of Fred book on a road trip a few weeks ago, and we'll do more the next time we have some boring time that needs to be filled.  I think I scheduled that we have to get through 3 or 4 a year to do them all by pre-algebra, and they're really not terribly long, so I thought it would be nice to save for a special occasion and do in larger chunks.

[lewelma]

MEP is strong on conceptual understanding, so complements Singapore materials well, plus you can just print off the bits you want so the cost is minimal. Definately look at the lesson plans, not just the worksheets.

 

As to how - in the early years we just worked through each book we wanted to use, switching between them when we felt like a change. Now that we're heading towards exams (we're in the UK & working toward IGCSEs) we use one book as a spine & add in other resources when I think they add interest or explain something better.

 

Just a small hijack here.  My younger will also be working towards IGCSE.  We have just completed the first 2 chapters of AoPs preA, and it was a dismal failure.  Just too complicated, he just could not retain the concepts even with flashcards and redoing all the problems.  Have you used MEP for years 8 or 9?  Is it as good as the elementary series?  Does it use a syllabus that heads a student towards IGCSE? The only checkpoint materials I can find are put out by Oxford, and the books look too straightforward for my son to enjoy.  He hates being told "here is how you do it, now go do 10"  but he also cannot do the discovery approach of AoPS and their problems are just too big a jump.  So what else is available for years 8 and 9 that would head a kid toward IGCSE but still give some challenges and opportunities to apply knowledge to new situations?  He is still quite young so I can wander a bit, but I don't want to completely change direction when studying for IGCSE in 3 or 4 years.

 

So far we have taken the approach that Quark has used, and I am sooooo glad to see someone else doing it.  My younger has spent about 2 months in each of SM, LoF, AoPS, Jacobs Algebra, and a couple of other supplements on a rotating basis.  I *think* he is moving forward, but certainly not systematically.  He just gets so bored.

 

One problem I have found with using more than one curricula, is that my ds does not have a sense of how much he should accomplish in a day.  And he can't really self-start because he doesn't know what to do.  Not helping his independence much.  And I find that pretty discouraging. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[Dmmetler]

For SM 1a-5B, we did an SM book and a couple of supplements at a time, usually doing a section of SM and some of a supplement-a chapter of LOF, some of Challenge math, some of Penrose, etc. I also added Mathletics for Math facts practice/review/speed once DD got to about SM 4-I had her start it about a grade level behind what she was doing and go at her own pace.

 

Now, she's doing AOPS, and that's all during the official, formal math block, but Mathletics, LoF Algebra, Calculus for Dummies, Easy as Pi, Math can Save your Life, and a ton of other assorted books all end up being done for "fun", and I often find pages of graph paper covered with disorganized calculations in bed with her in the morning, and she seems to delight in finishing grade levels on Mathletics (she's working through the Singapore Integrated Maths syllabus there).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

Have you used MEP for years 8 or 9?  Is it as good as the elementary series?  Does it use a syllabus that heads a student towards IGCSE?

We have been using selected units from MEP years 7-9 between DM 7B and 8A. It has a very different format than the earlier years of MEP. Each topic has its own section and all the practice problems pertain to that topic. The teacher support materials will tell you which problems to assign for each of the various tracks.

 

Another resource we are using is Singapore New Mathematics Counts 1. Apparently that was one of the older series and was less challenging than NEM but the flip side is that it has more review. So for the purposes that we are using it (really nailing down certain topics), it's been helpful.

[quark]

Just a small hijack here.  My younger will also be working towards IGCSE.  We have just completed the first 2 chapters of AoPs preA, and it was a dismal failure.  Just too complicated, he just could not retain the concepts even with flashcards and redoing all the problems.  Have you used MEP for years 8 or 9?  Is it as good as the elementary series?  Does it use a syllabus that heads a student towards IGCSE? The only checkpoint materials I can find are put out by Oxford, and the books look too straightforward for my son to enjoy.  He hates being told "here is how you do it, now go do 10"  but he also cannot do the discovery approach of AoPS and their problems are just too big a jump.  So what else is available for years 8 and 9 that would head a kid toward IGCSE but still give some challenges and opportunities to apply knowledge to new situations?  He is still quite young so I can wander a bit, but I don't want to completely change direction when studying for IGCSE in 3 or 4 years.

 

My personal experience...I was not able to make MEP Years 7 onwards work for DS. I'm not sure whether it was a fault with the program or that DS was just too much all over the place when we tried it for it to work. He had started algebra by then and perhaps it was just more exciting to work on the harder problems? A lot of Years 7 and 8 were review for him and I did not look very deeply into Year 9.

 

So far we have taken the approach that Quark has used, and I am sooooo glad to see someone else doing it.  My younger has spent about 2 months in each of SM, LoF, AoPS, Jacobs Algebra, and a couple of other supplements on a rotating basis.  I *think* he is moving forward, but certainly not systematically.  He just gets so bored.

 

And I'm so glad to hear YOU say this Ruth! I had a hard time coming to terms with not doing it systematically. I need to be honest and say the lockstep way was also boring to me, not only to him. But I also used to blame his gaps on this approach. However, on hindsight I know it was the best thing for him.

 

One problem I have found with using more than one curricula, is that my ds does not have a sense of how much he should accomplish in a day.  And he can't really self-start because he doesn't know what to do.  Not helping his independence much.  And I find that pretty discouraging. 

 

When we did math in this loopy sort of way, DS was not yet as independent as he is now. I am still structuring his time really but at that time I was structuring things more, including content. And we sometimes had the goal written on the whiteboard (e.g. "this month we will work on fractions", but sometimes I forgot to write it as well). What helped me was to keep a detailed record of what we were doing in a planner and write monthly (I should have done it weekly but I was too lazy) summaries of what we had accomplished. From day to day it was hard to see where all this jumping around was going but at month end, I had a short paragraph telling me that we were heading somewhere. By the end of one year the somewhere was clearer, and by the end of the next 2-3 years it was much more reassuring lol. Still not sure how to help a kid gain independence this way but at least for this mom, writing those summaries helped a lot.

 

[boscopup]

I've usually had a spine program and some type of supplement going on.

 

Oldest:

Grades 1-2 - Used Math Mammoth as the spine. Had some Zaccaro Primary Grades Challenge Math and Singapore IP/CWP to do for fun. We did the spine program every day, usually in the morning. In the afternoon, if we had time, we'd pull out a supplement for a little bit.

Grade 3 - Moved over to Singapore. Dabbled in Beast Academy, but it was really not the right level - he needed it a year earlier at least! I got Life of Fred Fractions once he'd finished the fractions section of SM 4. You don't have to do the elementary series at all. The upper level books came first. I would recommend learning fractions before doing LoF Fractions though.

Grade 4 - We're using AoPS Prealgebra as our spine, but we're getting more drill and kill practice via Dolciani Prealgebra. I also use CLE Math 500 for elementary arithmetic practice. So our schedule consists of 15 minutes to do a CLE lesson in the morning (it's ALL review, so he can whip through those problems very quickly). Then in the afternoon, we do Prealgebra - either Dolciani or AoPS. I tend to introduce a topic using Dolciani, to get the drill and kill practice that Dolciani is good at providing. Then I follow up with AoPS. We don't do all the problems in Dolciani or even all the sections. I only use the ones that I think my son needs practice in (for example, he needed to practice using exponents, since Singapore 5 didn't provide that much). Once he practices the topic sufficiently in Dolciani, he moves over to AoPS to get more depth in that topic. AoPS goes well beyond what Dolciani teaches, so there is no boredom factor here. ;) We will spend 2 years using these two Prealgebra books, but he'll be solid in arithmetic and the basics of early algebra when we start algebra, so I'll feel very comfortable moving ahead into Algebra in 6th grade. My son does a total of about 45 minutes to an hour of math each day, which I think is appropriate for his age.

 

Middle son:

He's only been using 1 program so far, but today I started to change things up. He passed the BA 3A Pre-assessment, much to my surprise (he's still early in grade 2 CLE), but I also recognize that he hasn't had some topics that are important before starting, such as subtraction with regrouping (he has had addition with regrouping). So I pulled out MM2A Subtraction with Regrouping sections, and we did a couple pages of that today, then we started BA 3A today as well, doing a couple of the practice pages of that. BA starts out with shapes anyway, so I don't think the subtraction issue will come up before he learns how to do it. Since this child is a 1st grader, I don't really care about finishing any grade level in a year. We'll keep using CLE as our spine for now, but also add in some MM/IP/CWP/BA for fun as applicable (I have all these things... chronic math hoarder like most here :lol: ).Oh, we also have the entire LoF Elementary series, and he's in Edgewood, but we haven't done that in a while.

 

You *can* do just one program, if that's all you can afford. There really is no problem with that. Sometimes we add to programs just to change things up. Seeing the same thing day in and day out can get boring, ya know? Other times, people take a more traditional program and add challenge to it. Or they might take a challenging program and add a traditional spiral program to it for more review. Every kid has different needs. When we used Singapore with my oldest, it really was basically Singapore by itself. LoF was fun, but he didn't do it all the time, and it really wasn't necessary. Right now, he's using multiple programs because he is needing the challenge that AoPS provides, but he's not mature enough to have AoPS as his sole program. Also, due to his age, arithmetic basics aren't always as automatic as I'd like them to be before moving to higher math, yet he'd be bored to tears continuing working on arithmetic which he basically knows how to do. So that's why we have that 15 minutes of "math practice" in the morning, and I told him, "If it's easy, you can get it done quickly." Sure enough, he can! And it's giving him less silly arithmetic errors in his Prealgebra work. His Dolciani work is giving him that drill and kill in new topics so he can focus on how to problem solve in AoPS. Each piece of this combination serves a specific purpose, and I could not find one program that provided all these things that he needed.

[Crimson Wife]

Years 7-9 of MEP is mostly pre-algebra and very early algebra 1. It covers a lot of the same topics as Singapore DM 7. A student who is doing okay in Jacobs Algebra might very well be beyond it. I pre-tested my DD with the MEP 7-9 diagnostic tests and any unit where she demonstrated mastery on the pre-test we're skipping. So it wound up being three topics (out of 22) in yr 7, four topics (out of 20) in yr 8, and ten topics (out of 17) for year 9 that she is doing.

 

I could well be erring on the side of caution in not just starting DD on Singapore DM 8A because she easily passed the Iowa Algebra Readiness test and did well on the 8th grade ITBS math portion. Anything that's just a straightforward basic level equation she can do very easily. The reason I'm hesitant to move on from pre-algebra/early algebra 1 is that she is still struggling with the less straightforward problems. A lot of SAT math is actually middle school level just in a tricky format. DD isn't likely to be going into a super-hardcore STEM field so there's no reason why she needs to reach calculus before the normal honors track of 11th grade. What is much more important is earning good grades in high school math and a competitive SAT math score. So I want her to have a totally 100% rock solid foundation before getting into the more challenging algebra topics.

[lewelma]

Right now, he's using multiple programs because he is needing the challenge that AoPS provides, but he's not mature enough to have AoPS as his sole program. Also, due to his age, arithmetic basics aren't always as automatic as I'd like them to be before moving to higher math, yet he'd be bored to tears continuing working on arithmetic which he basically knows how to do. So that's why we have that 15 minutes of "math practice" in the morning, and I told him, "If it's easy, you can get it done quickly." Sure enough, he can! And it's giving him less silly arithmetic errors in his Prealgebra work. His Dolciani work is giving him that drill and kill in new topics so he can focus on how to problem solve in AoPS. Each piece of this combination serves a specific purpose, and I could not find one program that provided all these things that he needed.

Thank you so much for writing all that out. I think the above is exactly what I need to do with my younger. My younger is quite skilled in math but needs all this extra, and I will have to say that because of my older's special math gift I am not used to actually *teaching* math, or finding extra drill, or slowing down etc. Perhaps we need to still try to push through AoPS PreA but just with a lot more practice. He *wants* the challenge, but then can't really do the problems. I might have him study the same topic with a different book first and then do the chapter in AoPS. I wonder if that would work or would be worth the time.

 

I seem to keep looking for the perfect program, and like you I just don't think there is one for this boy.

 

Ruth in NZ

[boscopup]

Thank you so much for writing all that out. I think the above is exactly what I need to do with my younger. My younger is quite skilled in math but needs all this extra, and I will have to say that because of my older's special math gift I am not used to actually *teaching* math, or finding extra drill, or slowing down etc. Perhaps we need to still try to push through AoPS PreA but just with a lot more practice. He *wants* the challenge, but then can't really do the problems. I might have him study the same topic with a different book first and then do the chapter in AoPS. I wonder if that would work or would be worth the time.

 

 

We did Chapter 1 with only doing a couple Dolciani chapters after I saw he was having issues with a couple topics, and it was sometimes tough. Chapter 2 went soooooo much better, because we did those Dolciani chapters first. He understood exponents and understood how to multiply/divide exponents and things like that, but he just hadn't had much practice *using* those concepts, so they weren't automatic.

 

I assign the odd problems in Dolciani, and he does one section over 2 days usually (though the last one he did in 1 day, because it was fairly easy). So we end up having some days be "easy" prealgebra, and some days be "hard" prealgebra. The difference is amazing. He even tackled the challenge problems in Chapter 2 with very little help, because he was so much more comfortable with the basics.

 

Hopefully you can find something that works for your boy! :D

 

[lewelma]

Years 7-9 of MEP is mostly pre-algebra and very early algebra 1. It covers a lot of the same topics as Singapore DM 7. A student who is doing okay in Jacobs Algebra might very well be beyond it. I pre-tested my DD with the MEP 7-9 diagnostic tests and any unit where she demonstrated mastery on the pre-test we're skipping. So it wound up being three topics (out of 22) in yr 7, four topics (out of 20) in yr 8, and ten topics (out of 17) for year 9 that she is doing.

This is an excellent idea for how to use MEP. We have NEM, but it seems to be mostly drill and kill. My ds definitely could not use it as his core program.

 

Anything that's just a straightforward basic level equation she can do very easily. The reason I'm hesitant to move on from pre-algebra/early algebra 1 is that she is still struggling with the less straightforward problems. A lot of SAT math is actually middle school level just in a tricky format. DD isn't likely to be going into a super-hardcore STEM field so there's no reason why she needs to reach calculus before the normal honors track of 11th grade. What is much more important is earning good grades in high school math and a competitive SAT math score. So I want her to have a totally 100% rock solid foundation before getting into the more challenging algebra topics.

I could have written this! My younger sounds just like your dd. He can whip out the easy ones like stuff in SM's WBs or NEM, but struggles with all things AoPS because it is tricky. I just don't think he is rock solid yet. And like your dd, he is not going to be a math major, perhaps a doctor, but I think math will just be a tool, not a passion. So I might just have him work at the same level through multiple books, each one giving a different way to understand. We started on Jacobs: A Human Endeavour a few months ago, I think I will add that back into the mix for the investigation side of math. Mix that with MEP for drill, and AoPS PreA for critical thinking. Two years later, my boy will just turn 12 and we can hit Algebra or Cambridge IGCSE (which is integrated math).

 

What are the pros and cons of rotating through the curricula daily vs weekly vs monthly? Right now we just do what he seems to be up for based on motivation, sleep, time of day, busyness, and I'm not sure this is a great approach to continue with.

[lewelma]

We did Chapter 1 with only doing a couple Dolciani chapters after I saw he was having issues with a couple topics, and it was sometimes tough. Chapter 2 went soooooo much better, because we did those Dolciani chapters first. He understood exponents and understood how to multiply/divide exponents and things like that, but he just hadn't had much practice *using* those concepts, so they weren't automatic.

 

I assign the odd problems in Dolciani, and he does one section over 2 days usually (though the last one he did in 1 day, because it was fairly easy). So we end up having some days be "easy" prealgebra, and some days be "hard" prealgebra. The difference is amazing. He even tackled the challenge problems in Chapter 2 with very little help, because he was so much more comfortable with the basics.

 

Hopefully you can find something that works for your boy! :D

I made the mistake of doing the opposite. We have been working through AoPS preA and then when there was trouble, I would pull out easy problems from another book. Clearly, I need to do it the other way around, or he will begin to think that AoPS is just impossibly hard.

 

Which Dolciani book are you using?

[Spy Car]

We've always done a mix. The ingredients and practical implementing has evolved, but the two principle ideals haven't, which are 1) teach for depth of understanding and 2) make it engaging and fun.

 

Early in we started with Miquon play as a base which fueled interest in MEP and Singapore (which, as planned, became our long term "spine." Later Miquon got finished, Zaccaro books were added, and the release of BA forced a choice between MEP and Primary Mathematics, and (in a move I will always second-guess) I choose PM, as it gives us a solid "method" I can suppliment from. Love MEP still.

 

In the early days I spent a lot of time thinking about precursor skills, and what my child needed to know "before" we tackled the next topic. Now, it is much less of an issue. In the main we work through books in the sequence they are published irrespective of what we are going in another series. But sometimes I will deviate if I have cause.

 

At the risk of threading into which books to recommend, I would agree with AVA that the BA Practice book with out the Guides (the comic book style "Texts") wouldn't be the best use, and I thnk just reading the Guides without the Practice books would also be of limited value for most students (but someone will surely straighten me out about that :D).

 

The beauty part of PM is that it so methodical. It is not always scintillating, especially the Workbooks (which I never-the-less would recommend to most—as you are aware). The supplementary materials, including the Singapore IPs are chosen in my case to balance "basic" work, which is not necessarily mind-expanding but is valuable for developing procedural competence, with the more cognitively difficult (and fun) "challenge" problems.

 

Almost any publisher/author falls into a pattern of presentation at some point . This can be a good thing in some ways, but sometimes there is value in just seeing similar (at base) type questions that "look" different.

 

So we do like to mix it up.

 

Bill

[Dmmetler]

I think the thing that has kept my DD from bogging down with AOPS Pre-A is that she did LOF/key to Algebra first, so nothing has really been new conceptually, but the applications are different enough to keep it from being the kind of repetition she so loathes. I'm keeping in the back of my mind that we may need to do the same for Algebra (she's doing LOF independently, but since she's doing it independently, I'm not sure if she's really doing it,YKWIM?) It's definitely a big jump from SM to AOPS!

[freerange]

Just a small hijack here. My younger will also be working towards IGCSE. We have just completed the first 2 chapters of AoPs preA, and it was a dismal failure. Just too complicated, he just could not retain the concepts even with flashcards and redoing all the problems. Have you used MEP for years 8 or 9? Is it as good as the elementary series? Does it use a syllabus that heads a student towards IGCSE? The only checkpoint materials I can find are put out by Oxford, and the books look too straightforward for my son to enjoy. He hates being told "here is how you do it, now go do 10" but he also cannot do the discovery approach of AoPS and their problems are just too big a jump. So what else is available for years 8 and 9 that would head a kid toward IGCSE but still give some challenges and opportunities to apply knowledge to new situations? He is still quite young so I can wander a bit, but I don't want to completely change direction when studying for IGCSE in 3 or 4 years.

 

there are only very minor differences between IGCSE and GCSE, so you could use almost any English textbook intended for years 7-9.

 

DD2 is using Essential Maths 8h as the spine with added AOPS PreA and Algebra when we want some variety. I misplaced EM8h, so whilst we waited for the replacement to arrive we filled in with MEP year 8 - I just went through the scheme of work with a highlighter and picked out the sections I wanted to add. Last year it was EM with MEP year 7, AOPS PreA and Singapore's Primary Maths workbooks 6a & b.

 

DD1 worked through the Essential Maths series before starting her GCSE text, which she complained was really easy, so I had her try a previous year's paper & she got a solid B. So depending on your point of view, either it gave her a really solid foundation that set her up for exam success, or it did the job too well and too fast. I'm going with the first and adding in Additional Maths to our plans.

 

I'm typing on an ipad & can't remember the code to add a clickable link, but I suppose you can cut & paste! elmwoodpress.co.uk/keystage3.html

 

So far we have taken the approach that Quark has used, and I am sooooo glad to see someone else doing it. My younger has spent about 2 months in each of SM, LoF, AoPS, Jacobs Algebra, and a couple of other supplements on a rotating basis. I *think* he is moving forward, but certainly not systematically. He just gets so bored.

 

One problem I have found with using more than one curricula, is that my ds does not have a sense of how much he should accomplish in a day. And he can't really self-start because he doesn't know what to do. Not helping his independence much. And I find that pretty discouraging.

 

Ruth in NZ

I plan it all out in skedtrak a few weeks at a time & then tweak as needed.

[boscopup]

Which Dolciani book are you using?

1985 Prealgebra: An Accelerated Course

[serendipitous journey]

to the OP -- if the only thing keeping you from giving other programs a whirl is your wallet, do try some MEP materials which are free (well, many folks print the Problem Book components at least so that's not free -- but it is pretty easy to work from the teacher's lesson plans so those don't have to be printed out).  Hands-down a superb math education. 

 

Also, I've found it valuable to keep one main program going to keep us from developing holes and to give me a sense of forward progress.  We used MathUSee for arithmetic through fractions, and picked up Singapore for the main program until we were through their elementary series.  Then we hopped around a bit trying to find what works.  I am working with an accelerated and very idiosyncratic child, so it simply hasn't been possible for me to go straight through a single program. 

 

We have often used multiple programs.  I haven't done two programs on the same day for very long at a stretch: usually we'll do a chunk from one thing and then a chunk from another.  The notable exception is skills work, which we do daily; I include the Key to ... series as skills work, and when we've been using those books I assign a page or so (usually 1/2 the problems from 2 pages each day) at a time different to our main math. 

 

Ruth -- have you looked at the Galore Park So You Really Want to Learn Maths books?  I have them and could scan & send you some pages if you like.  These have served us very well for that impossible pre-AoPS-PreA time.  I think these are very very solid maths for this level and prefer the actual maths to Singapore for various reasons; in practice I did a half-year or so of SM5 + SYRWTLM interleaved in a manner rather extemporaneous.  MEP is probably a superior maths program from the mathematician's point of view, but I found it impossibly convoluted to actually teach to A. under our constraints (I don't have much time to print & organize in advance, and have a very active preschooler running around).  I think to teach MEP upper years to an accelerated child you'd do best to have all the materials from a section printed out ahead of time and correlated so you can flip and go. 

 

Also be sure to look to the testing questions at the end of a section in MEP 7+  if the child is struggling for any reason -- A. had a hard time with the presentation of Venn diagrams partway through that segment, but was fine on the test material (simpler presentation) so we moved on. 

 

At the moment I'm 45 minutes of new maths with A. per day, nearly all of this time is working together at the chalkboard with AoPS.  He also does some sort of drill most days.  When we were in SM + SYRWTLM I picked a section of problems to assign based on his general speed and never assigned more than that but sometimes cut it short if it dragged. 

 

 

[quark]

MEP is probably a superior maths program from the mathematician's point of view, but I found it impossibly convoluted to actually teach to A. under our constraints (I don't have much time to print & organize in advance, and have a very active preschooler running around).  I think to teach MEP upper years to an accelerated child you'd do best to have all the materials from a section printed out ahead of time and correlated so you can flip and go. 

 

Good point. This was the hardest part for me implementing MEP. I like holding real pages when teaching vs using a computer screen and had to print loads and loads of pages to get a true feel of the material before teaching it. We were also compacting the material and there was a lot of wasted printing.  :glare:  I have found though that folks in the MEP yahoo group are sometimes willing to buy used/ unused printed pages for a small shipping fee. Just a thought!

[dovrar]

I use multiple math programs, and I actually do line them up, mostly, but I'm an anal-retentive overplanner that way!  :lol:

 

We have used MM as our spine, which is similar to Singapore.  We've used various supplements to deepen and add interesting/challenging problem-solving opportunities - so the Zaccaro books, for example, I will assign along with or at the end of the MM chapter that covers that topic.  I have a spreadsheet with multiple columns lining up different programs to the MM spine . . . it's a beast.

 

 

 

You wouldn't happen to be willing to share that beast, would you?  I'm anal that way too, but not enough hours in the day to be an overplanner. :biggrinjester:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Sure, I'm happy to share.  I just haven't figured out google docs, so if you pm me with an email, I can send it to you in that old-fashioned fashion.  ;)

[Vida Winter]

For dd9 we use SM with Mathematical Reasoning (Critical Thinking Press) as a supplement. She also reads LOF on her own for fun. I also like to add SM's Challenging Word Problems a level behind. I don't try to line things up - if she's done a topic previously, it is review. If not, it's a new concept.

[Korrale]

For our "spine" I use Go Math! (It is quite Singaporean in approach, but it is a Saxon/Singapore combo program) it can get a little writing heavy for my 3 year old. So we supplement with Ray's Arithmetic for fun and we do that one verbally. I try to do these both every day. Ray's Arithmetic is a great warm up. Nice and short. Go Math! lessons are short 15-20 minutes at most.

Once a week or so we use Spectrum Math. More so to check that my son is soaking up the concepts and being able to do them with traditional algorithms. He also use a GATE math book for enrichment. A page here and there. Mostly at his choosing.

I also have him complete a daily math facts sheet. Only takes him 3 minutes for a dozen of so questions. I print those from math-aids.com.

 

Each evening (while making dinner) my son gets math app time on my iPad. He has goals to meet (something like 20 questions) with 2 different splash math apps, dragon box, and another math app. I have a few other math apps that I let him play as free play whenever he wants. And he often wants them. My son loves these apps, and I like that I he works independently and the apps track his progress. If I see that he is struggling with anything I use games and the programs mentioned above to fill in the gaps.

We also dabble in Miquon, RightStart and any math games that I make up on the fly. We also read living math books as part of reading time. His favourite shows currently are Math Monsters and Number Crew so he gets those as treats! We don't watch mainstream TV so he doesn't know any differently.

And we do a lot of math stories in the car. A couple of weeks back he was sitting in the back of the car and he asked a question that goes some thing like this....

If a tree fell in the woods and it lost 3 branches and it had 3 branches left and there were 6 trees like this how many branches were there all together? And what are we going to do about all those falling trees?!? He worked his way through the answer mentally and was able to tell me... But oh my. He was awfully concerned about those trees. :)

 

Writing all that out it seems like a lot! But it really isn't 20-30 minutes of instruction time and another 20 playing math apps later in the day. Not too bad. And my son is going at a steady pace. He will complete a grade in about a year. If we were to stick to just one program, Go Math! For example. He would have completed it in about 15 weeks. We are aiming for as much breadth and depth at this age as possible.

[Laura Corin]

Just a small hijack here.  My younger will also be working towards IGCSE.  We have just completed the first 2 chapters of AoPs preA, and it was a dismal failure.  Just too complicated, he just could not retain the concepts even with flashcards and redoing all the problems.  Have you used MEP for years 8 or 9?  Is it as good as the elementary series?  Does it use a syllabus that heads a student towards IGCSE? The only checkpoint materials I can find are put out by Oxford, and the books look too straightforward for my son to enjoy.  He hates being told "here is how you do it, now go do 10"  but he also cannot do the discovery approach of AoPS and their problems are just too big a jump.  So what else is available for years 8 and 9 that would head a kid toward IGCSE but still give some challenges and opportunities to apply knowledge to new situations?  He is still quite young so I can wander a bit, but I don't want to completely change direction when studying for IGCSE in 3 or 4 years.

 

 

Calvin used Galore Park maths (SY 1, 2 and 3) and was over-prepared for GCSE.  He did the first half of GCSE maths during the summer before starting school (as the class he was joining was accelerated and had already done it) and had no problems with it.  He did the second half of the GCSE the following year at school, then the year after that did the few topics that are on the IGCSE but not the GCSE.

 

Galore Park maths is pretty straight forward but also has some history of maths and puzzles.  

 

L