How common is it for colleges to require SAT 2s? (e.g., Rice)

[regentrude]

.My Dad went up to Case and sat for their test.  Seems to have worked rather well.  Individual tests would seriously reduce the number of kids applying to 20 colleges.  

 

One of your arguments was access.

Having to travel to the college to sit their exam will be a burden especially for families from lower socioeconomic backgrounds - while rich families can easily have their kids jet to multiple destinations for tests. How is this supposed to work "rather well"?

[8filltheheart]

I totally agree that neither the SAT nor the ACT have improved anything but the bottom line at the College Board. My Dad went up to Case and sat for their test. Seems to have worked rather well. Individual tests would seriously reduce the number of kids applying to 20 colleges.

 

I draw the line at the 2s because one test is much easier (logistically) than many (was it 6 that Georgetown wanted?) Also, everyone (including the colleges) knows that the SAT (originally an aptitude test) is all about test-taking skills, whereas people (and colleges) seem to think that the 2s actually test knowledge.

I Agee with Jane and Regentrude re the first pt. And as far as the 2nd, the 2s do test knowledge, so I am not quite sure what you mean. They are very much like multiple choice final exams.

[Laura in CA]

 

2.  Because we did not have to back in the day and there is no evidence that either high school or college education has improved since then (and certainly no evidence that SAT Subject tests have improved education)

 

 

We have had this exact discussion before on these boards, so I am posting reluctantly ... I suppose it's a way to put off starting on my giant to-do list ... :)

 

Anyway, this (point #2) was not true for me at all. "Back in the day" (late 1970s/early 1980s) I took FOUR SAT subject tests (called achievement tests back then), because I was applying to highly selective colleges (Stanford, Caltech, Pomona, etc.). Paraphrasing what Regentrude said, I was grateful for the opportunity to indicate that although I had attended a mediocre public school, I had in fact learned stuff.

 

By comparison, my son may end up taking only 3 SAT 2s ... and he's homeschooled! Yes, he has a truckload of APs, but still ...

 

The 4 SAT 2s I took were necessary in order to meet all the requirements for the five schools to which I applied. I took Math Level 2, Latin, Chemistry, and English. And -- I've posted this before -- I walked in with NO prep and took 3 of them in one sitting. So, yes, things have changed :) but not (for me) in terms of the number of tests, just how much prep was available and expected.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So there are colleges that ask for extra input as a mandatory item from homeschoolers. The justification is that because homeschools aren't accredited and are all different that this extra input must be submitted to quantify their coursework.

This morning I was looking at test results for a couple of DC high schools. Some had proficiency rates on the district exam for tenth graders of only 14-19%. The district average was around 44%. What if colleges required extra exam scores from students applying from these schools, where students are overwhelmingly poorly prepared?

Now I realize that colleges often look at additional items to make a student more competitive. I accept that from select schools. But it troubles me that the requirement applies just to homeschoolers. And it bothers me when the requirement is specifically SAT subject tests rather than a wider range like AP/SAT Subject/college coursework. Of course looking at my list I'm also bothered that the options to make a homeschooler competitive are to demonstrate college work in high school (which is probably why the subject tests are specified).

 

I would be ok with the concept of a school leaving exam if I thought it would be intellectually honest. I have my doubts that would be so.

[regentrude]

I would be ok with the concept of a school leaving exam if I thought it would be intellectually honest. I have my doubts that would be so.

 

It works elsewhere in the world...

[angela in ohio]

So there are colleges that ask for extra input as a mandatory item from homeschoolers. The justification is that because homeschools aren't accredited and are all different that this extra input must be submitted to quantify their coursework.

This morning I was looking at test results for a couple of DC high schools. Some had proficiency rates on the district exam for tenth graders of only 14-19%. The district average was around 44%. What if colleges required extra exam scores from students applying from these schools, where students are overwhelmingly poorly prepared?

Now I realize that colleges often look at additional items to make a student more competitive. I accept that from select schools. But it troubles me that the requirement applies just to homeschoolers. And it bothers me when the requirement is specifically SAT subject tests rather than a wider range like AP/SAT Subject/college coursework. Of course looking at my list I'm also bothered that the options to make a homeschooler competitive are to demonstrate college work in high school (which is probably why the subject tests are specified).

 

I would be ok with the concept of a school leaving exam if I thought it would be intellectually honest. I have my doubts that would be so.

 

They don't need the students at those DC schools to take an SAT subject test. They already know the students didn't learn enough in those classes. They have a school profile to tell them that. But there is no school profile for an individual homeschool, so some schools use the SAT IIs as a way of getting objective information.

 

I guess I don't get too excited about it because dd has to take them for several of the schools she is applying to anyway (they require them from everyone.) I might be more inclined to resist if we weren't taking them anyway.

 

(Now if a student in one of those schools wanted to prove that they had learned more than their poor school provided, they could also use the optional SAT IIs to prove that to the college.)

[angela in ohio]

Almost all of the schools DD is considering require the SAT2s from all applicants. I have seen only very few that imposed additional testing requirements on homeschoolers only; those seemed to be a small minority.

I have, however, also seen plenty of schools that do not require any, from anybody.

 

I hate the test prep and the wasted time as much as you do, believe me.

 

I just looked at dd's chart, and almost every selective school on her list requires them or strongly recommends them for everyone. In the next tier, it looks like many do, but Northwestern only requires them from homeschoolers. Of the in-state options, only U of M asks for them, and that is only from homeschoolers.

[katilac]

<snip> But it troubles me that the requirement applies just to homeschoolers. And it bothers me when the requirement is specifically SAT subject tests rather than a wider range like AP/SAT Subject/college coursework. Of course looking at my list I'm also bothered that the options to make a homeschooler competitive are to demonstrate college work in high school (which is probably why the subject tests are specified).

I believe that's incorrect. AP tests meant to be college level; SAT subject tests are meant to show high school mastery.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I believe that's incorrect. AP tests meant to be college level; SAT subject tests are meant to show high school mastery.

 

You are exactly correct.  I was trying to acknowledge that, by conceding that as a possible reason for requiring SAT Subject Tests rather than requiring something at the college level.

 

What I don't really understand is why some schools require the extra SAT Subject Tests, rather than saying that they want to see items that will quantify learning (and that SAT Subject tests, AP scores, community college grades, or outside coursework (like OSU German, Lukeion, Johns Hopkins CTY, etc).

 

If there were a school/program my kid really wanted that required the extra hoops, I suppose we'd do them.

 

I do actually understand the desire to have outside evidence of student work.  In my role as an information liaison for my alma mater, I often counsel students (of all types) that their job as applicants isn't to meet minimums, but to hit the ball out of the park.  For homeschoolers, who typically don't have grades, gpa, or class rank and who don't generally have a class profile from a school with thousands of past students to contextualize the student's performance, and who might be presenting few letters of recommendation from outside the family; this outside evidence does matter.  I'm just a bit taken aback at the inflexibility of saying only one sort of test can serve that purpose for the school.

 

FWIW, you might be amazed at the sort of things that students/families think should matter in an application.  One parent cited the student's grandfather's golf buddy the admiral as the reason why the student would be a shoe in.  So I have some sympathy with schools that don't feel they can just take a parent's word on the quality of student work.

[katilac]

<snip>

What I don't really understand is why some schools require the extra SAT Subject Tests, rather than saying that they want to see items that will quantify learning (and that SAT Subject tests, AP scores, community college grades, or outside coursework (like OSU German, Lukeion, Johns Hopkins CTY, etc).

<snip>

My guess is that it's simply to make their lives easier - glancing at a score for set tests is much quicker than sorting through a variety of items that quantify learning. Churning through the numbers.

[Nan in Mass]

My guess is that it's simply to make their lives easier - glancing at a score for set tests is much quicker than sorting through a variety of items that quantify learning. Churning through the numbers.

 

I agree.  That way, they can compare apples to apples.  I also have heard that they pick SAT2's because not all students have access to AP classes.  Their thinking might be that 3 SAT2's (the most common requirement we saw) require one Sat. morning of testing and won't be very burdensome, even on top of the AP's.  I suspect they assume that the student will take them cold if they have already studied for the AP's.  Their school, their rules.  I'm sure where the homeschooling requirements are different from the school requirements, they would love to stretch the homeschooling requirements to cover any unknown school.

 

I didn't question the requirement because I, too, had to take three achievement tests as a high schooler.  None of my sons took them because the schools on their list didn't require them and they had other outside verification of their mummy transcript.  They would have if need be.  The hard part was deciding whether they would be at a disadvantage without them, since "required" isn't the same as "we don't require them but the students we choose usually have them anyway".  I really worried over youngest's decision to forego them, but he had called his first choice school and asked and they had said very clearly not to take them on their account.  None of the others on the list required them.  All my just-in-case-ing didn't persuade him and he had other outside verification of his mummy transcript, so I let it go.

 

Nan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I agree.  That way, they can compare apples to apples.  I also have heard that they pick SAT2's because not all students have access to AP classes.  Their thinking might be that 3 SAT2's (the most common requirement we saw) require one Sat. morning of testing and won't be very burdensome, even on top of the AP's.  I suspect they assume that the student will take them cold if they have already studied for the AP's.  Their school, their rules.  I'm sure where the homeschooling requirements are different from the school requirements, they would love to stretch the homeschooling requirements to cover any unknown school.

 

I didn't question the requirement because I, too, had to take three achievement tests as a high schooler.  None of my sons took them because the schools on their list didn't require them and they had other outside verification of their mummy transcript.  They would have if need be.  The hard part was deciding whether they would be at a disadvantage without them, since "required" isn't the same as "we don't require them but the students we choose usually have them anyway".  I really worried over youngest's decision to forego them, but he had called his first choice school and asked and they had said very clearly not to take them on their account.  None of the others on the list required them.  All my just-in-case-ing didn't persuade him and he had other outside verification of his mummy transcript, so I let it go.

 

Nan

 

I think you and Katilac are probably right that it gives them one line item to consider.  And as you say, it's simply a question of their school their rules.  I won't know what we'll really do until we get much closer.

[creekland]

My guy had no SAT II tests and never needed any.  He did have to cut one school (Emory) from his list, but didn't feel he was 'losing out' on anything by cutting them.  He did have a high ACT, three DE classes, and two AP tests to verify grades.

 

I sent Rhodes an email the other day with ds's ACT score and CC transcript asking if SAT IIs would still be required.  They said with his ACT score and courseload that SAT IIs would not be necessary.  :hurray: I got it in writing now...
 

This is the same response we got from the vast majority of schools that claimed to need or highly recommend SAT II tests... it's worth checking each school. For us, only Emory was non-negotiable.  These schools want verification (understandable), but it usually doesn't have to be SAT II tests IME. YMMV

 

Why do you consider it ridiculous if a school asks applicants to demonstrate that the grades on their transcript (whether issued by a public school or a parent) stand the test of an outside validation? With grade inflation rampant, I consider this a rather sensible request by the college. Seeing how widely course content and rigor for a class of the same name can vary between different schools (homeschools included), it only makes sense that they want to see that students have mastered a certain canon of material.

If we had standards for schools and standardized courses, this would be unnecessary - but that is not the case in this country.

I don't think anyone is saying no outside substantiation is required.  I think most don't feel it should be any one specific thing whether SAT II, AP, or DE.  Remember, the OP has plenty of substantiation.  I suspect when/if she checks with individual schools, most will feel their substantiation is just fine.  There may be some that do not.  I'm like her and would cut those schools UNLESS my kid really wanted one.  I left the decision up to my son on Emory (test for them or cut them).  His reaction was "worse" than mine in that he didn't even want to tour their school when we were in Atlanta and had allowed a day.  He was that mad at them... and their insisting on SAT II tests (from homeschoolers only) after all of his other schools (including Yale) had said they didn't need them.  (He ended up not caring for Yale due to their location and a couple of other things, so didn't apply, but not even that 'mediocre' school absolutely needed SAT II tests.)  I think it's actually more common for schools to be dropping SAT II requirements rather than adding them.

 

NOTE:  We did see more required for engineers, but this guy never had any inclination toward wanting engineering.

 

My youngest is not doing any SAT II tests either.  He has no need for any of his schools - the highest ranked school he might consider (U Miami - FL) does not require them.  If they did, I know he'd cut them.  He despises testing... he's very much a hands on kid.

[creekland]

 

Not too many schools require SAT IIs of everyone. The College Board lists about 200 schools that use the SATIIs (either required for general admission, required for homeschoolers, or recommended for consideration for a competitive program or major): "Institutions Using SAT Subject Tests". This article lists about 3 dozen schools that require the SAT IIs for entrance: "What Colleges Require the SAT Subject Test?".

 

 

 Those lists are either outdated or vague.  On the first - the "using" list - I think what they fail to mention is a school "using" the SAT II may also be equally fine with "using" another method for whatever it is they are "using" them for. Middle son attends a school on the list and an e-mail to them back in the consideration stage told us they had no "need" for SAT IIs - just outside verification from somewhere.  AP and DE were just fine.  He has decent merit aid from them too.

 

On the second list - the "require" list - Yale did not need them when middle son was in his consideration stage and a quick check shows they still do not need them when an applicant has an ACT test.  It says some departments may use them, but it's not a requirement for the college app in general as the site seems to imply.

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/standardized-testing

 

I think College Board wants people to think those tests are more of a requirement than they actually are.

[Lori D.]

...first - the "using" list - I think what they fail to mention is a school "using" the SAT II may also be equally fine with "using" another method for whatever it is they are "using" them for. 

 

...  the "require" list - Yale ... still do not need them when an applicant has an ACT test.  It says some departments may use them, but it's not a requirement for the college app in general....

 

...I think College Board wants people to think those tests are more of a requirement than they actually are.

 

 

Thanks for that update Creekland! So, it sounds like fewer schools may *really* require SAT IIs than what it sounds like...? Good news for applying to college! ;)

[8filltheheart]

 Those lists are either outdated or vague.  On the first - the "using" list - I think what they fail to mention is a school "using" the SAT II may also be equally fine with "using" another method for whatever it is they are "using" them for. Middle son attends a school on the list and an e-mail to them back in the consideration stage told us they had no "need" for SAT IIs - just outside verification from somewhere.  AP and DE were just fine.  He has decent merit aid from them too.

 

On the second list - the "require" list - Yale did not need them when middle son was in his consideration stage and a quick check shows they still do not need them when an applicant has an ACT test.  It says some departments may use them, but it's not a requirement for the college app in general as the site seems to imply.

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/standardized-testing

 

I think College Board wants people to think those tests are more of a requirement than they actually are.

 

Creekland,

 

If you go to the homeschool page for Yale, it states

 

Home-schooled applicants complete the same application as other students and must fulfill the same testing requirements. Because home-schooled students may lack standard measures of academic performance, they must try to provide comparable information in different ways. Here are a few suggestions for home-schoolers as they approach the application process:

Testing

Standardized test scores hold relatively more weight for home-schooled applicants. If you are a home-schooler and you feel confident about your ability to do well on the exams, we advise you to demonstrate your abilities in various areas by taking more than the required two SAT Subject Tests.

 

 

Did your son apply as a homeschooler?

 

I think that if anyone's student is seriously considering Yale, you should call and confirm that the ACT would replace those 2 required subject tests as a homeschooler.  

[Teachin'Mine]

8FTH, the additional testing is just one of the ways homeschoolers can "provide comparable information".  The other ways suggested are Letters of Recommendation, Strength of Program, and Personal Qualities.   I'm sure it's easiest for them and other colleges to have standardized test scores, like the SAT II, which they can easily compare, but I'm sure that other colleges are also open to other ways of showing our students' strengths. 

[regentrude]

8FTH, the additional testing is just one of the ways homeschoolers can "provide comparable information".  The other ways suggested are Letters of Recommendation, Strength of Program, and Personal Qualities.   I'm sure it's easiest for them and other colleges to have standardized test scores, like the SAT II, which they can easily compare, but I'm sure that other colleges are also open to other ways of showing our students' strengths. 

 

Sure. But if an extremely selective school says

 

we advise you to demonstrate your abilities in various areas by taking more than the required two SAT Subject Tests.

 

I am not so sure it is in the student's best interest to ignore this "advice", but rather to interpret it to mean "you better jump through this hoop". I'd make sure to have the tests and the LORs and the strength of program and the personal maturity. With such low acceptance rates, I'd hate for the application to land on the discard pile just because the box was not checked.

 

(Of course the student is always free not to apply, but if he does, I'd take every "recommendation" as an order.

[Pawz4me]

I am not so sure it is in the student's best interest to ignore this "advice", but rather to interpret it to mean "you better jump through this hoop". I'd make sure to have the tests and the LORs and the strength of program and the personal maturity. With such low acceptance rates, I'd hate for the application to land on the discard pile just because the box was not checked.

 

(Of course the student is always free not to apply, but if he does, I'd take every "recommendation" as an order.

 

The admissions person who led our information session at Washington and Lee said, "With college admissions, when something says recommended assume it really means required."

[8filltheheart]

8FTH, the additional testing is just one of the ways homeschoolers can "provide comparable information".  The other ways suggested are Letters of Recommendation, Strength of Program, and Personal Qualities.   I'm sure it's easiest for them and other colleges to have standardized test scores, like the SAT II, which they can easily compare, but I'm sure that other colleges are also open to other ways of showing our students' strengths. 

 

My answer stands.    I would definitely recommend someone make their own contact and get an answer than accept a comment posted on the forum as a definitive answer.   I always verify information.   Sometimes the information I have received 2nd hand is completely accurate.   Sometimes it isn't.   Sometimes schools even change policies.   (GA Tech did that in just a couple of weeks between a phone call with them and then later posted different information on their website.)

 

And.....when applying to school like Yale, the acceptance rates are so low that I don't know why one would ignore the advice stated so clearly on their website.   Honestly, the 2s are the least annoying test amg any of the tests.   

 

FWIW.....this conversation reminds me of a quote from LOTR:   Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.

 

Get your own answers to your own questions.  ;)

[regentrude]

The admissions person who led our information session at Washington and Lee said, "With college admissions, when something says recommended assume it really means required."

 

That's what they said at the info sessions for Stanford and Harvard as well.

Yale being in roughly the same class, I assume it is not much different.

 

I'd have no problem arguing about hoops with a school with a 60% acceptance rate ;-)

[Teachin'Mine]

8, the quote continues ...

 

“… The choice is yours: to go or wait.†[Gildor said.] “And it is also said,†answered Frodo, “Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.â€

“Is it indeed?†laughed Gildor. “Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill. But what would you? You have not told me all concerning yourself; how should I choose better than you? But if you demand advice, I will for friendship's sake give it.â€

 

Although my advice was certainly not demanded, it was given for friendship's sake.  : )    I find that the answer to many questions is an equally clear "yes" and "no".

 

Clearly each of us should get all the information and make our own decisions.  I was simply pointing out that in Yale's site it did list other acceptable ways to prove the student's abilities.   Clearly they want more than "Mommy said so".   lol    

[8filltheheart]

8, the quote continues ...

 

“… The choice is yours: to go or wait.†[Gildor said.] “And it is also said,†answered Frodo, “Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.â€

“Is it indeed?†laughed Gildor. “Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill. But what would you? You have not told me all concerning yourself; how should I choose better than you? But if you demand advice, I will for friendship's sake give it.â€

 

Although my advice was certainly not demanded, it was given for friendship's sake. : ) I find that the answer to many questions is an equally clear "yes" and "no".

 

Clearly each of us should get all the information and make our own decisions. I was simply pointing out that in Yale's site it did list other acceptable ways to prove the student's abilities. Clearly they want more than "Mommy said so". lol

I love that quote from Gildor. :) and Frodo's answer! LOL!

 

But it is apt. We have all assumed a very serious duty, and as my husband would say, we need to do our due diligence. We shouldn't assume anything, or as my kids would respond, "you know what assuming will make out of you and me." ;)

 

No one has to apply to any college that requires hoops. (We would never apply to Washington and Lee bc of them.). But, for kids that want to apply, they do need to understand exactly what hoops there are. W&L, for example, states, or used to anyway, that nothing replaced 2s. While on one pg Yale seems to imply they aren't necessary, on the homeschool pg, the implication seems like they are. I would not dismiss the requirement w/o confirmation (and we have lots of outside verification. Ds is applying to Yale and will submit 3 2s, in addition to all multiple college grades and APs, and will still probably not be accepted.)

[Gwen in VA]

"W&L, for example, states, or used to anyway, that nothing replaced 2s."

 

As a parent of two W&L alums, I have to point out that my kids knew several homeschooled kids there (even several on full-ride scholarships!) who did not take any SAT-2's but used AP's and CC classes to provide outside verification of achievement. I had an admissions person from W&L tell me that they LOVED homeschoolers! So unless their policies have changed dramatically in the past year or two, W&L is not a good example of a homeschool-unfriendly school.

 

Just sayin'!

[Lori D.]

8, the quote continues ...

 

“… The choice is yours: to go or wait.†[Gildor said.] “And it is also said,†answered Frodo, “Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.â€

“Is it indeed?†laughed Gildor. “Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill. But what would you? You have not told me all concerning yourself; how should I choose better than you? But if you demand advice, I will for friendship's sake give it.â€

 

Although my advice was certainly not demanded, it was given for friendship's sake.  : )    I find that the answer to many questions is an equally clear "yes" and "no".

 

Clearly each of us should get all the information and make our own decisions.  I was simply pointing out that in Yale's site it did list other acceptable ways to prove the student's abilities.   Clearly they want more than "Mommy said so".   lol    

 

 

:smilielol5:  Oh, this made my day! Still giggling...

 

 

But this has been my take on this topic from the very start -- each family has to make it's own choice of how much effort is it worth to that family to meet the requirements of the schools in which the family is interested.

 

(Sometimes, I think as homeschoolers we get so used to being independent and doing what we want and when/how we want, we forget that at some point, if we want to participate in some things, we just have to play by the rules, whether we think they are valid or useful or silly or onerous...)

 

"Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!"

(A star shines on the hour of our meeting.)

[8filltheheart]

"W&L, for example, states, or used to anyway, that nothing replaced 2s."

 

As a parent of two W&L alums, I have to point out that my kids knew several homeschooled kids there (even several on full-ride scholarships!) who did not take any SAT-2's but used AP's and CC classes to provide outside verification of achievement. I had an admissions person from W&L tell me that they LOVED homeschoolers! So unless their policies have changed dramatically in the past year or two, W&L is not a good example of a homeschool-unfriendly school.

 

Just sayin'!

Wow. When we contacted them a couple of yrs ago we were told the 2s were required. They told a friend who toured the campus the same thing. (Our student was not a strong candidate. Their ds, otoh, was with multiple APs and CC courses). I guess this was the mistake of the counselor(s) we both spoke with. It was the same yr, so it could have been the same person. Our contact was via phone, though, not in person. Too bad her ds didn't apply. It would have been a great fit for him. :(

[Lori D.]

Wow. When we contacted them a couple of yrs ago we were told the 2s were required...  I guess this was the mistake of the counselor(s) we both spoke with...

 

 

I think a lot of schools are changing their policies each year re: homeschoolers, so it's probably best to check for oneself each year -- and talk to more than one person in the admissions office, because not everyone may know the latest policies. :)

[Pawz4me]

Just to clarify -- When the W&L admissions person made that comment, he was referencing their "strongly recommended" interview.  Not SAT 2s.  I just threw it out as evidence that in general "recommendations" should be interpreted as "requirements."  Sorry for any confusion.

[8filltheheart]

Just to clarify -- When the W&L admissions person made that comment, he was referencing their "strongly recommended" interview. Not SAT 2s. I just threw it out as evidence that in general "recommendations" should be interpreted as "requirements." Sorry for any confusion.

You didn't. It was what we were told. We weren't told about the interview piece, though. ;). I am beginning to think that maybe speaking to the actual registrar might be necessary for specific questions. I know when we moved here, the admissions counselor gave us the pat answer off the website. It did take her meeting with the registrar to get a "real" answer that was not the same as on the website.

 

This summer GA Tech told me they had to have outside verification (not just 2s) and just a couple of weeks later their website now says recommend. I wonder if that admission's officer knew it was going to change bc we talked for several minutes and it was made perfectly clear by the end that it wasn't optional. ;)

[Jen in NY]

But, for kids that want to apply, they do need to understand exactly what hoops there are. W&L, for example, states, or used to anyway, that nothing replaced 2s. While on one pg Yale seems to imply they aren't necessary, on the homeschool pg, the implication seems like they are. I would not dismiss the requirement w/o confirmation (and we have lots of outside verification. Ds is applying to Yale and will submit 3 2s, in addition to all multiple college grades and APs, and will still probably not be accepted.)

Yes, this. An added twist is that you (or at least *I*) can't know for sure at the beginning of high school where your dc will end up applying. With dd #1 I thought I did... but luckily a friend had just helped her student through the application process at a school that required 2's. Since dd was taking some AP classes, we decided to do the 2's - almost as a precaution or insurance. Thankfully... b/c the school that eventually became her first choice did require them, and she had taken them when the material was fresh in her mind. At that point there was no sudden panic or realization that she had to scramble to get the tests in under less than ideal circumstances.

 

Long story short... in our case it was better to have more bases covered than we originally thought would be required.

[creekland]

Creekland,

 

If you go to the homeschool page for Yale, it states

 

 

Did your son apply as a homeschooler?

 

I think that if anyone's student is seriously considering Yale, you should call and confirm that the ACT would replace those 2 required subject tests as a homeschooler.  

My guy inquired as a homeschooler (Yale ended up not making his final cut for applications due to location, lack of merit aid, and local disdain for Ivy - that latter in case he wants to settle back in our hometown - the former two more important considerations).  We had their response written back in an e-mail.  It was essentially the same inquiry sent to several schools (cut and paste - change name of school and admin rep).  Of those schools, Emory was the only one who said, "sorry, but you'll need the SAT II tests as they are required of homeschoolers."  Yale (and the others) said what they wanted was outside confirmation of some sort and his ACT, AP and DE would do just fine - thanks for asking.  A couple also added that "Once we see that a student tests well, we know that they will test well on any test so we don't need several examples - hence - why wanting 2.  Anything additional is simply not needed." (paraphrased quotes as I don't have the e-mail responses any longer... I wish I'd had the foresight to keep them, but in any event, I'll agree with the majority that anyone considering any school should contact them in person - I prefer in writing (e-mail) as then I also have their response in writing.  ;)  Schools change their policies all the time.  We inquired the year my guy was applying.

 

Sure. But if an extremely selective school says

 

 

I am not so sure it is in the student's best interest to ignore this "advice", but rather to interpret it to mean "you better jump through this hoop". I'd make sure to have the tests and the LORs and the strength of program and the personal maturity. With such low acceptance rates, I'd hate for the application to land on the discard pile just because the box was not checked.

 

(Of course the student is always free not to apply, but if he does, I'd take every "recommendation" as an order.

I suppose there is some mental assurance that no stone was left unturned...  We opted to trust what we were told, but there's certainly no harm (I suspect) in having more.

 

8, the quote continues ...

 

“… The choice is yours: to go or wait.†[Gildor said.] “And it is also said,†answered Frodo, “Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.â€

“Is it indeed?†laughed Gildor. “Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill. But what would you? You have not told me all concerning yourself; how should I choose better than you? But if you demand advice, I will for friendship's sake give it.â€

 

Although my advice was certainly not demanded, it was given for friendship's sake.  : )    I find that the answer to many questions is an equally clear "yes" and "no".

 

Clearly each of us should get all the information and make our own decisions.  I was simply pointing out that in Yale's site it did list other acceptable ways to prove the student's abilities.   Clearly they want more than "Mommy said so".   lol    

 

:iagree:   Each of us needs to make our own decisions.  However, for anyone out there feeling they've potentially burned bridges due to not already having SAT II tests - except for a few schools, it's simply not so.  Inquire and ask.  Don't let a website be the final answer.  Usually there is leeway.

 

I think a lot of schools are changing their policies each year re: homeschoolers, so it's probably best to check for oneself each year -- and talk to more than one person in the admissions office, because not everyone may know the latest policies. :)

 

:iagree:   One should check in person (I prefer in writing) because policies are changing all the time.

 

Also my guy was high stat and rural zip code (desired by many schools) and a homeschooler (I still think this is a hook at most schools).  A borderline "run of the mill" (ie lots of local competition) applicant would likely want to add more if it shows them in a good light.  SAT IIs could help, but I personally believe anything "different" a homeschooler has (unique stuff - made possible by homeschooling) probably has a better chance at a very low acceptance rate school than "just another kid with more test scores."  You'll still need high stats of some sort (to prove capability at the school), but I bet the other stuff catches the admin eye more.  The high stats just get the app looked at.  One or two more won't (likely) make a difference - just as some said in their e-mail to us.

 

Just my two cents...

 

To all who are applying - I wish you well!

[at the beach]

With regard to subject exams and schools requiring or not requiring them--I think that even if a school website says required, schools might be inclined if you call to simply tell you to apply with whatever you want to apply with. Aren't we being told how they want to increase the number of applicants? Furthermore, it's like the slush pile in an editor's office. There may be a gem in there. I can't imagine most schools are going to say no to a possible gem. But if you have those subject exams and you do well on them, it can only help, all other things being equal. If, however, testing is not your child's strong suit, then maybe the smart thing to do is go without them because maybe they will hurt. Or if your courses didn't align with the subject exams and you don't have time or inclination to prep or whatever, then maybe it's not worth it to do them. Every family's goals are different. But in general, I would not be looking to be an exception to what is stated on the websites of schools as requirements or advice. JMO.  

[Gwen in VA]

"When the W&L admissions person made that comment, he was referencing their "strongly recommended" interview."

 

As a parent of two W&L alums, I can believe that W&L requires an interview for homeschoolers.

 

W&L wants applicants who LOVE their school, so anyone (homeschooler or not) who is interested in merit aid there REALLY should do an interview. (Translation -- if you don't do the interview, you will probably not receive merit aid. So make the trip and do the interview!)

 

I have been told by multiple colleges that interviews are a "if humanly possible, do it!" item for homeschoolers, ESPECIALLY if the recommendations are being done by online teachers. This makes sense to me!

 

Dd2 and dh just drove 1100 miles, with a total round trip time of 38 hours, solely in order to do an interview at one of dd's top choice colleges. Her going there requires not only acceptance but merit aid, so we considered that wild trip a reasonable investment.....

[Pawz4me]

My oldest son, the one who we were attending the information session with, is no longer homeschooled.  He went back to public school for high school after four years of homeschooling.  So the comment wasn't homeschool specific, it was meant for everyone.  And just as an FYI, students don't have to travel to W&L for the interview.  They have alumni all over the country who conduct them.  DS has a choice between two local ladies for his.  Unfortunately, I don't recall if they said a Skype interview was acceptable or not.