How common is it for colleges to require SAT 2s? (e.g., Rice)

[plansrme]

Rice U, for instance, requires the SAT and some number of SAT2s OR the ACT, of everyone--this is not a homeschool-specific requirement.  There is no mention on their website of substituting APs.  My daughter has not planned to take any SAT 2s, as she will have about 15 APs, several post-APs and Calc 2 and 3 through GA Tech.  I hate to give the CB more money than I have to, and frankly, hate to devote her limited free time to actually taking the tests.  But assuming she has no interest in Rice, is this likely to come up anywhere else?  And even at Rice, why would they not take the equivalent AP instead?  She would have APs in all subject areas (math, history, social sciences, English) other than language.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, no, APs do not replace 2s in admission requirements. Fwiw, there are a lot of schools which require2s, so I wouldn't skip them.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Emory requires 3 SAT 2s of hs'ers.  Sigh.

 

CalTech requires SAT Math 2 and a science from everyone.

 

University of Florida used to require 3 SAT 2s (if I remember correctly) from hs'ers but would take CC classes instead.  Now, they accept SAT 2, CC, and FLVS.

 

Why don't you call Rice Admissions and ask them the question?.  I enjoy pointing out to schools how idiotic their policies are...

[regentrude]

All the schools my DD is interested in require several SAT2s.

From what I have learned on these boards, APs are often not accepted as fulfilling this requirement.

 

but those are all somewhat selective schools. None of the state schools I looked at ask for SAT2s.

[plansrme]

Well it is ridiculous that an hour-long, multiple choice test on the high school-level content could not be replaced by a three-hour test on college-level content.  I might scratch any such schools off her list on principle.

[8filltheheart]

Well it is ridiculous that an hour-long, multiple choice test on the high school-level content could not be replaced by a three-hour test on college-level content. I might scratch any such schools off her list on principle.

Unfortunately that means many of the schools that might be the best match for your dd might need to be eliminated.

[snowbeltmom]

Unfortunately that means many of the schools that might be the best match for your dd might need to be eliminated.

:iagree:

 

Many of the top tier schools require SAT II's (usually two) from every applicant - not just homeschoolers.  While some don't specify which SAT II's to submit, other schools do.  Those that do (for a STEM kid) require the SAT II in math (some specify which level, other college will accept either level) and a science SAT II (some specify either chemistry or physics).

 

Also, even though the College Board states that the subject tests are high school level, I have known of a couple of students who have bombed the Chemistry SAT II after taking a high school level chemistry class.  The vast majority of kids taking these tests take them at the conclusion of the AP class.  It is easier to get a 5 on the AP Chemistry test than an 800 on the Chemistry SAT II.

[Lori D.]

Rice U... requires the SAT and some number of SAT2s OR the ACT, of everyone... no mention... of substituting APs.  My daughter has not planned to take any SAT 2s, as she will have about 15 APs...

 

You are in the driver seat on this one. If DD is taking 15 APs and your family is not interested in also taking SAT II, then just cross of colleges that require SAT IIs and move on. Only apply to those schools that do not use SAT IIs as a requirement. :)

 

JMO, but if DD has already taken that those 15 APs, I'd only be applying to colleges that actually grant credit for APs, to make the financial investment of that many AP test fees count.  :) (See this search engine for college AP credit policies to determine which colleges grant credit for APs, and what type of credit they grant.)

 

 

On a side note: If DD has NOT already taken all those APs, you may want to rethink taking THAT many APs. (Check out this article on weighing the pros and cons of APs: "Are AP Courses Worth It?") What are DDs goals in taking APS?

 

If DD's doing that many APs for admission to a top tier or selective school, then doing a mix of APs and SAT IIs would be the better choice to help her meet her goal. (And DO check out WHICH SAT IIs each top tier / selective school specifically requires -- different schools require different amounts and different types of SAT IIs.)

 

On the other hand, if DD's doing that many APs in hopes of earning college credit and knocking off a semester or a year of college to reduce cost and time, doing that many APs may NOT pay off. Colleges may limit the total amount of credit they will award. And most colleges that do award AP credit often award the credit towards an *elective* rather than a core course, resulting in not reducing the total amount of classes, time, and money going into working towards a 4-year degree. (Again, use that search engine linked above to find out this info.)

 

And one last thought: if DD is taking more than half of her high school courses as AP, perhaps that's an indication she's really ready to move on to college work? Perhaps instead of paying for more APs, consider investing that test fee money into taking actual college courses now, either via dual enrollment or early graduation and going on college... Just a thought!

 

But assuming she has no interest in Rice, is this likely to come up anywhere else?

 

Not too many schools require SAT IIs of everyone. The College Board lists about 200 schools that use the SATIIs (either required for general admission, required for homeschoolers, or recommended for consideration for a competitive program or major): "Institutions Using SAT Subject Tests". This article lists about 3 dozen schools that require the SAT IIs for entrance: "What Colleges Require the SAT Subject Test?".

 

The majority of schools that require SAT IIs are top tier and selective schools, so if your DD is headed in that direction, you may want to reconsider the plan of so many APs, and substitute a few of the specifically required SAT IIs.

 

Some additional schools do require SAT IIs from homeschoolers (proof of "mommy grades"). But with that many APs, if your DD really wants to apply to a school that requires SAT IIs only from homeschoolers, I'd suggest calling the admissions office and see if they will accept the APs in lieu of the SAT IIs. And if not, then let DD make the decision of how much does she want to attend that school -- is it enough to go through another round of testing, or not.

 

Also, what major is DD interested in? Sometimes, while a school doesn't require SAT IIs for general admission, they do make it clear that the tests can be important for students trying for competitive majors and programs. You would want to double check with the school that APs would be accepted in lieu of SAT IIs if this is the case for your DD.

 

 

And even at Rice, why would they not take the equivalent AP instead?  She would have APs in all subject areas (math, history, social sciences, English) other than language.

 

Their school. Their rules. ;) You can politely request if the school will consider substituting APs for SAT IIs, but the school is under no obligation to do so. BEST of luck, as you and DD navigate the waters of testing, college prep, and college search! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[plansrme]

Unfortunately that means many of the schools that might be the best match for your dd might need to be eliminated.

 

I doubt that very much.  There are thousands of schools out there; you're got to narrow down the list any way you can.

 

 

 

Also, even though the College Board states that the subject tests are high school level, I have known of a couple of students who have bombed the Chemistry SAT II after taking a high school level chemistry class.  The vast majority of kids taking these tests take them at the conclusion of the AP class.  It is easier to get a 5 on the AP Chemistry test than an 800 on the Chemistry SAT II.

 

This may be true anecdotally (AP 5s bombing the SAT 2), but average scores on the SAT 2s are incredibly high precisely because everyone has studied for the corresponding (harder) AP exam.  The vast, vast majority of kids who make 5s on the AP exam do not bomb the SAT 2.

 

 

 

If she's doing that many APs in hopes of earning college credit and knocking off a semester or a year of college to reduce cost and time, doing that many APs may NOT pay off. Colleges may limit the total amount of credit they will award. And most colleges that do award AP credit often award the credit towards an *elective* rather than a core course, resulting in not reducing the total amount of classes, time, and money going into working towards a 4-year degree. (Again, use that search engine linked above to find out this info.)

 

 

This is all going pretty far afield of my original question, which has been answered, but I did want to address this.  An AP exam costs less than $100 ($80'ish?).  My daughter is taking two semesters' of Calc at GA Tech this year that is paid for by the state, and the bill for that is somewhere in the $1200 range.  That is for two one-semester classes at the state U.  She only has to get credit for a couple of classes (one for an OOS or private school) for the AP fees for 15 APs to be well worth the investment in test fees.  That is not why she is taking the APs in the first place, so it does not really matter, but I just want to put the exam fee in context.

 

And no, she really has no interest in Rice--this just came up because of their mailing.  She has not seen this requirement at any school in which she is interested, not yet anyway.  

 

As for the suggestions to take fewer APs, I'm just baffled by that.  SAT 2s would be taken on top of the AP exam, so it isn't like there is a class labeled "SAT 2 prep" instead of "AP," so why would she take fewer APs, even if she were to sign up for SAT 2s?

[regentrude]

As for the suggestions to take fewer APs, I'm just baffled by that.  SAT 2s would be taken on top of the AP exam, so it isn't like there is a class labeled "SAT 2 prep" instead of "AP," so why would she take fewer APs, even if she were to sign up for SAT 2s?

 

You don't need an AP class in order to take, and do well, on an SAT2. None of the SAT2s my DD has taken has been done on top of an AP class, and we do no AP exams.

 

I can think of many reasons NOT to take 15 AP exams:

first of all, I highly doubt any school/major will accept 15 APs. So why invest the time for the test prep? (I am not talking about not learning the content)

second, the student may prefer not to gamble his entire credit on the all-or-nothing of three hours of high stakes testing and rather take a college class where credit is earned over the course of a semester

third, the content of an AP class is precisely tailored to the exam, and very restrictive, but the student might be interested in learning something outside of that narrow scope. Or the student may not be interested at all in some of the AP subjects and would not want to spend his time going above and beyond in a subject he dislikes - he might prefer to go above and beyond in a subject he is passionate about. (I'd marvel at students who feel their burning passion precisely for all those15 AP subjects; they must be rare.)

fourth: even if a school accepts AP credit and allows the student to skip a course, it may not always be in the student's best interest to do so., since the level of the college course may exceed the level of the AP course.

[8filltheheart]

I doubt that very much. There are thousands of schools out there; you're got to narrow down the list any way you can.

 

True, but many of the schools that would be a good match for such a strong student do require them. MIT, CalTech, Cornell, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Harvey Mudd, Swathmore, Olin, and the list goes on.

 

Schools like NCSU, Chapel Hill, etc, you won't need them. But with Duke you would.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that none of the schools require APs. And, until just very recently, GA Tech required 3 unless you had a dual enrollment grade. ;)

[Lori D.]

This is all going pretty far afield of my original question, which has been answered, but I did want to address this.  An AP exam costs less than $100 ($80'ish?).  My daughter is taking two semesters' of Calc at GA Tech this year that is paid for by the state, and the bill for that is somewhere in the $1200 range.  That is for two one-semester classes at the state U.  She only has to get credit for a couple of classes (one for an OOS or private school) for the AP fees for 15 APs to be well worth the investment in test fees.  That is not why she is taking the APs in the first place, so it does not really matter, but I just want to put the exam fee in context.

 

And no, she really has no interest in Rice--this just came up because of their mailing.  She has not seen this requirement at any school in which she is interested, not yet anyway.  

 

As for the suggestions to take fewer APs, I'm just baffled by that.  SAT 2s would be taken on top of the AP exam, so it isn't like there is a class labeled "SAT 2 prep" instead of "AP," so why would she take fewer APs, even if she were to sign up for SAT 2s?

 

Sounds like you're committed to APs, so best wishes that the APs help DD achieve her goals!

[plansrme]

You don't need an AP class in order to take, and do well, on an SAT2. None of the SAT2s my DD has taken has been done on top of an AP class, and we do no AP exams.

 

I can think of many reasons NOT to take 15 AP exams:

first of all, I highly doubt any school/major will accept 15 APs. So why invest the time for the test prep? (I am not talking about not learning the content)

second, the student may prefer not to gamble his entire credit on the all-or-nothing of three hours of high stakes testing and rather take a college class where credit is earned over the course of a semester

third, the content of an AP class is precisely tailored to the exam, and very restrictive, but the student might be interested in learning something outside of that narrow scope. Or the student may not be interested at all in some of the AP subjects and would not want to spend his time going above and beyond in a subject he dislikes - he might prefer to go above and beyond in a subject he is passionate about. (I'd marvel at students who feel their burning passion precisely for all those15 AP subjects; they must be rare.)

fourth: even if a school accepts AP credit and allows the student to skip a course, it may not always be in the student's best interest to do so., since the level of the college course may exceed the level of the AP course.

 

True, of homeschooled students, which she is not any more.  Sorry, I should have clarified that.  At her school, the next progression is the AP course, for which you have to take the AP exam, so not taking the AP class means stopping progress in that course.  The alternative to AP Chem is just no more Chem.   (That is actually a bad example because they actually have a post-AP ChemE class, but for 99% of schools, this would be true.)  But I do see where you and Lori were coming from.

[snowbeltmom]

 

This may be true anecdotally (AP 5s bombing the SAT 2), but average scores on the SAT 2s are incredibly high precisely because everyone has studied for the corresponding (harder) AP exam.  The vast, vast majority of kids who make 5s on the AP exam do not bomb the SAT 2.

:confused1:

I never stated that any student who scores a 5 on the AP test would bomb the SAT II.  The content tested on the Chemistry SAT II is beyond what is typically studied using a high school level textbook.  Therefore, the vast majority of kids take the Chemistry SAT II after taking the AP class.  This is true of all the SAT II's with the exception of the Math SAT II's since calculus is not tested on those tests.

[Gwen in VA]

I would not skip SAT-2's. Studying for and scoring well on an SAT-2 is a fairly straight-forward proposition after taking an AP test. If your child is a strong enough test-taker to even consider 15 AP's, the SAT-2's will be fairly painless.

 

My kids took AP's in May and, when possible, the relevant SAT-2 in June.

 

According to several colleges my kids have applied to, SAT-2's are also looked at when colleges give out merit aid even if they are not required for admission, so not taking any SAT-2 may lower your child's chances of merit aid.

[Lori D.]

True, of homeschooled students, which she is not any more.  Sorry, I should have clarified that.  At her school, the next progression is the AP course...

 

Ahhh, knowing this critical piece of information completely changes things. So, due to being in a school, AP is the only track open to your DD to continue with advanced studies.

[plansrme]

This whole thread is bewildering to me.  I am clearly being scolded and am not quite sure why.  Perhaps I should go hang at College Confidential--they're cream puffs compared to you guys!  

[In The Great White North]

 

 

I might scratch any such schools off her list on principle.

 

We did.  And while most of the schools that require SAT IIs are good schools, they are also schools that have demonstrated their preference for diversity over academics by not offering any merit aid.  I eliminate them on principle also.  We also managed to avoid any school requiring the Common App, but I doubt if that will be possible for the next round.

[8filltheheart]

This whole thread is bewildering to me. I am clearly being scolded and am not quite sure why. Perhaps I should go hang at College Confidential--they're cream puffs compared to you guys!

???? I don't think anyone is scolding you. I think most are expressing concern about limiting your dd's options.

[Barbara H]

Two points to consider:

 

1. While there are many difference policies out there it is increasingly popular for colleges to offer the option of SAT plus SAT subject tests OR the ACT. So some students, particularly non-homeschoolers opt to take the ACT in addition to, or instead of, the SAT.

 

2. Many schools that want SAT subject tests are on the list of schools that do the best job in meeting financial need. So, I personally encourage really high achieving students who also have financial need, to not close doors by skipping the SAT subject tests. While we are all burned out on testing, it is possible to take more than one SAT subject test on a Saturday and it may be worth the cost of money and time to keep those options open. I worked with a senior last year who hadn't taken SAT subject tests but was considering some selective schools that wanted them. She took two SAT subject tests on the October date. She got moderate but not great scores, but very good thing that she tested because the two schools that gave her by far the best financial aid packages were schools that required SAT subject tests.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Found another one.  Sigh.  Rhodes College in Memphis, TN.

 

SAT II Subject Tests

In addition to the SAT or ACT tests, homeschooled students are required to take at least two SAT Subject Tests (other than English and Math). These give us a better sense of your educational background and preparation in the context of an internationally recognized standardized exam.

 

[FaithManor]

We have had to scratch all schools that require SAT 2's. We can't get them within a four hour round trip

drive of here and there is rarely a seat open for homeschoolers since so few schools proctor them.

 

It is extremely difficult to find a sear just for the SAT alone. This will keep my math and science

gifted youngest out of applying to MIT. I suggested to a MIT admissions that they consider amending

their policy to accept AP's since it penalizes students in rural areas where the AP is the standard

and finding a testing facility with an open seat is extraordinarily difficult, the response was to the

effect that they are not interested in wooing farm kids! Needless to say, I would now not be interested

in my son attending. He has plenty of wonderful programs on his list that will not require crazy maker

hoop jumping to get into.

 

That said, the college board needs to take a hard look at what it can do to better serve rural students.

 

That's my rant about SAT II's!

[katilac]

We have had to scratch all schools that require SAT 2's. We can't get them within a four hour round trip

drive of here and there is rarely a seat open for homeschoolers since so few schools proctor them.

The distance thing is a pain, but not so bad if you can schedule 2 tests for the same day (assuming a 4-5 hour round trip, you don't say just how far you have to go). I know that not everyone has the ability or resources to pull it off, but, if I *could* do it, I wouldn't scratch so many schools off my list when it's very do-able, and not much more trouble/expense than many other things in the overall college prep process (campus visits, test prep, extracurriculars, etc). Lots of people in big cities have a four hour round trip commute every day for work, so transportation issues are definitely not strictly a rural issue!

 

As far as open seats for home schoolers, I didn't think that was an issue for SAT IIs. You register yourself, online. You don't have to go through a school or ask for permission, as you do with APs. Am I wrong about that? We haven't registered for one yet, so maybe there is a step in the process I'm unaware of? I hope not, b/c I was really looking forward to dealing with our local schools as little as possible, lol.

[regentrude]

As far as open seats for home schoolers, I didn't think that was an issue for SAT IIs. You register yourself, online. You don't have to go through a school or ask for permission, as you do with APs. Am I wrong about that? We haven't registered for one yet, so maybe there is a step in the process I'm unaware of? I hope not, b/c I was really looking forward to dealing with our local schools as little as possible, lol.

 

That is correct. When you register for the SAT or the SATII, you do so online directly through the college board, and the school is not involved at all in your registration.

Sometimes a particular test is full, that happened to us for language with listening.

But I have a hard time imagining how the online registration process would discriminate between homeschoolers and school students.

 

[FaithManor]

The distance thing is a pain, but not so bad if you can schedule 2 tests for the same day (assuming a 4-5 hour round trip, you don't say just how far you have to go). I know that not everyone has the ability or resources to pull it off, but, if I *could* do it, I wouldn't scratch so many schools off my list when it's very do-able, and not much more trouble/expense than many other things in the overall college prep process (campus visits, test prep, extracurriculars, etc). Lots of people in big cities have a four hour round trip commute every day for work, so transportation issues are definitely not strictly a rural issue!

 

As far as open seats for home schoolers, I didn't think that was an issue for SAT IIs. You register yourself, online. You don't have to go through a school or ask for permission, as you do with APs. Am I wrong about that? We haven't registered for one yet, so maybe there is a step in the process I'm unaware of? I hope not, b/c I was really looking forward to dealing with our local schools as little as possible, lol.

Well, it may not be a homeschooling thing per se, but what we've found is that A. there is RARELY if ever, a testing site that has more than one of the SAT II's we need on the same day, and B. the seats are filled so rapidly that we just can't get in. For one thing, the school that is the testing site, registers their students first. The reality is, I've attempted five times, and was never able to get a seat for dd. When you consider the sheer number of students from rural areas that flood the city schools for these exams, it's way more students than there are seats. Up here, there is only one school in a four county radius that proctors the SAT, and it's full within two days of registration opening for each testing date. There are many kids who can't get a seat when they need it. Now, the ACT has FAR more testing sites, and the AP's are a bit better served than the SAT II's.

 

The reality is that every school on my kids' short lists (six a piece) are tier 1's and none of them require SAT II's, and all offer merit aid. But, to be competitive they all do like to see an AP or 2...they don't seem to be impressed by huge numbers of AP's because they are limiting credit offered for those anyway. All of these schools also accept the SAT, but prefer the ACT. So, I'm not tying myself in a knot about it. If it were going to limit them in what they wanted to major in, or prevent them from getting into good programs, then I'd try my hardest to make it happen, though in reality, all my effort could still be for nothing. My honorary daughter wanted to sit SAT II's as a public school student, and her school couldn't get her seats in the city to take the exams either, so she just took the AP's  - the most popular ones, biology, physics, calculus, and US History, are offered within a reasonable commuting distance .

 

It is unfortunate, but Michigan is just becoming a disaster in terms of educational options being readily available.

[FaithManor]

That is correct. When you register for the SAT or the SATII, you do so online directly through the college board, and the school is not involved at all in your registration.

Sometimes a particular test is full, that happened to us for language with listening.

But I have a hard time imagining how the online registration process would discriminate between homeschoolers and school students.

 

Sorry, I should not have implied the registration process is discriminatory. It's the college board itself. When I've tried to ask them questions, my emails go completely unanswered, and their customer service on the phone has been LESS than stellar! I tried to set it up for someone in our area to proctor an exam that wasn't going to be available around here, but they don't return phone calls, I'd be on hold for ghastly periods of time, and emails again, unanswered. Maybe I'm just having a bad experience, but I've had to come to wonder if the fact that we homeschool somehow means I don't get taken seriously.

 

AP Comp SCI was the one that an SAT proctor that I know offered to do for ds, but no one would even tell me if this was an option. Just endless waits on hold and unanswered emails.

 

I should have been more clear that it was a beef with customer service. But, then maybe I'm red flagged since every year I try to diplomatically suggest that they consider having more testing sites.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

We have had to scratch all schools that require SAT 2's. We can't get them within a four hour round trip

drive of here and there is rarely a seat open for homeschoolers since so few schools proctor them.

 

It is extremely difficult to find a sear just for the SAT alone. This will keep my math and science

gifted youngest out of applying to MIT. I suggested to a MIT admissions that they consider amending

their policy to accept AP's since it penalizes students in rural areas where the AP is the standard

and finding a testing facility with an open seat is extraordinarily difficult, the response was to the

effect that they are not interested in wooing farm kids! Needless to say, I would now not be interested

in my son attending. He has plenty of wonderful programs on his list that will not require crazy maker

hoop jumping to get into.

 

That said, the college board needs to take a hard look at what it can do to better serve rural students.

 

That's my rant about SAT II's!

 

I thought that you registered for SAT 2 online just like the SAT.  How are seats for homeschoolers harder to get than seats for anyone else?  Not saying you haven't had the problem, just wondering how it manifests itself.

 

I totally agree with you on the issue of access for students in areas where tests aren't common.  I think this also goes for any non-public student trying to take the PSAT, students trying to take an AP exam if they aren't taking it in the school and students who live in areas where guidance counselors and parents aren't as saavy.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Well, it may not be a homeschooling thing per se, but what we've found is that A. there is RARELY if ever, a testing site that has more than one of the SAT II's we need on the same day, and B. the seats are filled so rapidly that we just can't get in. For one thing, the school that is the testing site, registers their students first. The reality is, I've attempted five times, and was never able to get a seat for dd. When you consider the sheer number of students from rural areas that flood the city schools for these exams, it's way more students than there are seats. Up here, there is only one school in a four county radius that proctors the SAT, and it's full within two days of registration opening for each testing date. There are many kids who can't get a seat when they need it. Now, the ACT has FAR more testing sites, and the AP's are a bit better served than the SAT II's.

 

The reality is that every school on my kids' short lists (six a piece) are tier 1's and none of them require SAT II's, and all offer merit aid. But, to be competitive they all do like to see an AP or 2...they don't seem to be impressed by huge numbers of AP's because they are limiting credit offered for those anyway. All of these schools also accept the SAT, but prefer the ACT. So, I'm not tying myself in a knot about it. If it were going to limit them in what they wanted to major in, or prevent them from getting into good programs, then I'd try my hardest to make it happen, though in reality, all my effort could still be for nothing. My honorary daughter wanted to sit SAT II's as a public school student, and her school couldn't get her seats in the city to take the exams either, so she just took the AP's  - the most popular ones, biology, physics, calculus, and US History, are offered within a reasonable commuting distance .

 

It is unfortunate, but Michigan is just becoming a disaster in terms of educational options being readily available.

 

In your area, how does the school enter the registration process?  Back in the dark ages of the 1980s I remember registering for the SAT and SAT 2 by mail.  I registered both of my kids by mail for the SAT about a year ago.  I do have to go through the school for the PSAT, which I understand, but still think is potentially restrictive.  (Fortunately, our testing person at the local school is very helpful.)

 

I guess I'm wondering why a student in a rural area can't register for a subject test online and have as much opportunity to get a seat as a student in town.  (When my kids took the SAT, there were students in the lobby from at least six different high schools, based on kids we knew and school Tshirts in evidence.)

 

My understanding with the subject tests was that as long as the test was being offered that date, the booklets available were based on what students registered for.  Is this not the case?  Are all of the tests in one big booklet?  (I am thinking that there could be seat limitations with the language tests with listening, because of equipment requirements.)

[regentrude]

 there is RARELY if ever, a testing site that has more than one of the SAT II's we need on the same day,

 

I do not understand this. All the subject tests that are offered that day are in the same booklet, and the school gets as many booklets as students are registered for taking subject tests. Whether the student takes only one or several, the booklet is the same - there is absolutely nothing the school needs to "have" for several tests.

That's why it is possible to add additional subject tests on the spot, since the materials are there anyway; you just have to send the CB the extra  money later.

 

The only complication may be language with listening where the school needs to have enough seats so students can operate their CD players. This test is only offered once per year. The language without listening test is also offered only once per year - but these are decisions from the College board and have nothing to do with the schools.

[angela in ohio]

I assume Faith is confusing AP and SAT IIs. The SAT IIs are registered for online and not through the school, but the APs are registered for with the school. There is no preference available to students at that school for SAT IIs; everyone registers online just the same.  You don't need to contact College Board to register for the SAT IIs, but you may have to call them to locate AP exams offered.  I have found the customer service folks hit or miss, just as with any company. 

 

Also, most SAT IIs are offered at each sitting. My dd registered for two and then picked three different ones the day of the test, and it worked out just fine.

 

We have had no trouble at all with registering for SAT IIs, though I can imagine there might be less access for the SAT itself. Michigan is very much an ACT state, outside of the Detroit suburbs and A2, where you get more students headed for the coasts. There is definitely more ACT testing offered in this area, but I am used to having to drive a bit for access to more academic resources, as we chose to live more rurally. It has its advantages and disadvantages for sure. :)

[Kareni]

I thought all of the SAT 2's were available on each test day.

 

There are some like the Latin subject test which are offered only twice yearly.  Here's a link to the 2013/2014 test dates.  I see that a number of foreign languages have only one test date.  I'm surprised to see that World History also has only two test dates per year.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Sunshine State Sue]

 

Found another one.  Sigh.  Rhodes College in Memphis, TN.

 

I sent Rhodes an email the other day with ds's ACT score and CC transcript asking if SAT IIs would still be required.  They said with his ACT score and courseload that SAT IIs would not be necessary.  :hurray: I got it in writing now...

 

[Vida Winter]

Be sure to check specific college requirements; some schools require additional 2-3 SAT2s for homeschoolers only. If they had required it for everyone, I wouldn't have minded but it seems to be a bias against homeschoolers.

[plansrme]

???? I don't think anyone is scolding you. I think most are expressing concern about limiting your dd's options.

 

Oh sure you are.  You just did.  I'm a bad mom for not encouraging her to apply to a handful of schools, schools in which she has shown no particular interest anyway, because their admissions requirements are silly.  Frankly, if more students rebelled against ridiculous admissions requirements, there would be a lot fewer of them. 

[katilac]

Be sure to check specific college requirements; some schools require additional 2-3 SAT2s for homeschoolers only. If they had required it for everyone, I wouldn't have minded but it seems to be a bias against homeschoolers.

As my kids get older, this bothers me less and less, because I have seen so many parents hand their high schoolers a stack of workbooks and call it a day. I have seen lots of lying and cheating - not that schooled kids can't cheat, but it's much harder for them to lie about taking an entire class, lol.

 

I used to think that home schoolers were one of the most honest groups of people on earth. Now I qualify that: you can leave your purse unattended at a h/s convention all day long, but you might want to test those academic claims.

[Gwen in VA]

" Frankly, if more students rebelled against ridiculous admissions requirements, there would be a lot fewer of them."

 

One thing to remember is that MOST admissions requirements are demanded of ALL students. The colleges feel that this information is helpful to them in making college decisions. Folks who don't want to jump through the hoops don't have to apply. But for the most part the hoops are the same whether you are homeschooled (like my kids) or attended a $35,000/year high school (just a day school -- not a boarding school!) like my nieces. Regardless of the expense or the prestige surrounding their high school education, my nieces took as many tests as my kids did -- because my nieces and my kids all felt that an education from a certain type of college was worth the pain (and the silliness) of certain standardized tests.

 

You choose whether or not to jump through the hoops. But you are also choosing which colleges your kid can or cannot apply to. Different folks will make different decisions.

 

 

 

 

 

'

[at the beach]

As my kids get older, this bothers me less and less, because I have seen so many parents hand their high schoolers a stack of workbooks and call it a day. I have seen lots of lying and cheating - not that schooled kids can't cheat, but it's much harder for them to lie about taking an entire class, lol.

 

I used to think that home schoolers were one of the most honest groups of people on earth. Now I qualify that: you can leave your purse unattended at a h/s convention all day long, but you might want to test those academic claims.

Most kids in schools don't even bother with SAT subject exams. I bet many would bomb them. My oldest went to regular school all the way through. An excellent-rated public school. Cheating was pretty common. Just because kids sit in a class all year (which might involve short term cramming and then dumping and even cheating, seeing education as a means to an end) doesn't mean they learned much of anything. I do not see that sitting through a class is all that revealing. My homeschooled daughters are interested in learning. There is really a much lower interest in cheating when you are engaged in what you are doing and your purpose is to master something IMO.

 

The unschoolers and workbook schoolers I know aren't applying to schools that even ask for subject exams. Just because parents hand their kids workbooks doesn't mean learning is not going on. Maybe workbooks work for some people. And I doubt those kids live in a vacuum the rest of the time.

 

Children vying for spots at top schools generally have significant credentials anyway (including test scores) and are probably capable of handling the academics at those types of schools--I don't think schooled or homeschooled kids can typically fake their way into those types of schools. The testing requirements at competitive schools are usually pretty much there for all kids, homeschooled or not, and that's how it should be IMO. I don't think homeschoolers should be considered more fraudulent than anyone one else. JMO. :) That you can leave your purse unattended at a homeschool convention actually says a lot, at least to me.

[regentrude]

Be sure to check specific college requirements; some schools require additional 2-3 SAT2s for homeschoolers only. If they had required it for everyone, I wouldn't have minded but it seems to be a bias against homeschoolers.

 

Seeing what passes for home"schooling" around me, I am actually glad that the admissions people will not lump us together in one general "homeschoolers" category, but will give us a chance to demonstrate that our homeschooling produced academic results verifiable by outside examinations.

 

I would hate if they drew any conclusions based on the large numbers of IRL homeschoolers I see where no rigorous college prep education happens.

[regentrude]

 I'm a bad mom for not encouraging her to apply to a handful of schools, schools in which she has shown no particular interest anyway, because their admissions requirements are silly.  Frankly, if more students rebelled against ridiculous admissions requirements, there would be a lot fewer of them. 

 

Why do you consider it ridiculous if a school asks applicants to demonstrate that the grades on their transcript (whether issued by a public school or a parent) stand the test of an outside validation? With grade inflation rampant, I consider this a rather sensible request by the college. Seeing how widely course content and rigor for a class of the same name can vary between different schools (homeschools included), it only makes sense that they want to see that students have mastered a certain canon of material.

If we had standards for schools and standardized courses, this would be unnecessary - but that is not the case in this country.

[Jane in NC]

Why do you consider it ridiculous if a school asks applicants to demonstrate that the grades on their transcript (whether issued by a public school or a parent) stand the test of an outside validation? With grade inflation rampant, I consider this a rather sensible request by the college. Seeing how widely course content and rigor for a class of the same name can vary between different schools (homeschools included), it only makes sense that they want to see that students have mastered a certain canon of material.

If we had standards for schools and standardized courses, this would be unnecessary - but that is not the case in this country.

One of the books that I read on the college admission process at competitive colleges emphasized that there are certain high schools that are on the admissions radar because of their demonstrated success but most are not.  My local (mediocre) public school would be unknown to admissions personnel at competitive colleges.  I suspect that a transcript from this school would have as much meaning as a parent created transcript--all unknowns.

 

Perhaps an alternative would be a portfolio approach for admissions.  I suspect that many of the LACs would prefer this although I doubt if the state unis would have the personnel to read through the material.

[Vida Winter]

Yes, many homeschooling families do not even attempt academic rigor. There are serious homeschoolers and lazy ones. I get that. However I still do not appreciate homeschooled students being singled out for extra testing, particularly for those of us that need to travel for hours to take the exams, not to mention the extra prep time. I can think of a hundred other better uses of time for high school juniors and seniors, but I am resigned to spending the extra time with my kids because it is one more checklist item they have to complete. Again, if the tests were required of everyone, I would feel better about it. Most likely the extra SAT2s would trip up many public school students, and I'm sure that wouldn't go over well in our state.

[regentrude]

Perhaps an alternative would be a portfolio approach for admissions.  I suspect that many of the LACs would prefer this although I doubt if the state unis would have the personnel to read through the material.

 

Or standardized exit exams in multiple subjects for a college preparatory high school diploma. This way, a college prep high school diploma would carry a specific meaning. (I can dream, right?)

 

[regentrude]

Yes, many homeschooling families do not even attempt academic rigor. There are serious homeschoolers and lazy ones. I get that. However I still do not appreciate homeschooled students being singled out for extra testing, particularly for those of us that need to travel for hours to take the exams, not to mention the extra prep time. I can think of a hundred other better uses of time for high school juniors and seniors, but I am resigned to spending the extra time with my kids because it is one more checklist item they have to complete. Again, if the tests were required of everyone, I would feel better about it. Most likely the extra SAT2s would trip up many public school students, and I'm sure that wouldn't go over well in our state.

 

Almost all of the schools DD is considering require the SAT2s from all applicants. I have seen only very few that imposed additional testing requirements on homeschoolers only; those seemed to be a small minority.

I have, however, also seen plenty of schools that do not require any, from anybody.

 

I hate the test prep and the wasted time as much as you do, believe me.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Why do you consider it ridiculous if a school asks applicants to demonstrate that the grades on their transcript (whether issued by a public school or a parent) stand the test of an outside validation?

 

 

1.  Because it is NOT the norm.

 

2.  Because we did not have to back in the day and there is no evidence that either high school or college education has improved since then (and certainly no evidence that SAT Subject tests have improved education)

 

3.  Because it encourages (requires) teaching to the test

 

4.  Because the College Board is using testing to try to force its agenda on both college and high school course development

 

5.  Because it implies that one is lying on the transcript (guilty til proven innocent)

 

6.  Because it is not an unbiased assessment of actual learning of course material.  It is scored ON A CURVE, forcing some people to fail. 

 

7.  Because freshman science courses start over anyway and math& English are already covered by the SAT/ACT

 

8.  Because they are inaccessible for some applicants

 

9.  Because the College Board is a money-grubbing monopoly, with less than adequate quality control

[8filltheheart]

GWN, I agree with your list in general, but i guess I don't see how it applies to just the 2s. Have the ACT or SAT improved the quality of education? I guess what I don't understand is why the 2s are the arbitrary line in the sand.

 

We do the tests bc they are the hurdles everyone has to jump through. We personally are not applying to schools that only require them of homeschoolers (or that i am aware of anyway....he has 3 tests but they are required by multiple schools, so we have them) but all applicants.....it really isn't much different than having everyone have ACT or SAT scores.

[regentrude]

1.  Because it is NOT the norm.

 

It seems to be the norm for highly selective schools.

 

 

2.  Because we did not have to back in the day and there is no evidence that either high school or college education has improved since then (and certainly no evidence that SAT Subject tests have improved education)

 

That is precisely the point. School quality has declined so much that I would not trust a transcript.

 

 

3.  Because it encourages (requires) teaching to the test

 

I do grant you this. And I don't like it, but I do not see a better solution at present.

 

 

4.  Because the College Board is using testing to try to force its agenda on both college and high school course development

 

What is that agenda?

 

5.  Because it implies that one is lying on the transcript (guilty til proven innocent)

 

As long as there is no standardized course content, it would not have to be lying. I see it as quality control. (I'd like to see better designed exams for that, but this is the best thing currently available)

 

6.  Because it is not an unbiased assessment of actual learning of course material.  It is scored ON A CURVE, forcing some people to fail. 

 

There is no failing, because there is no such thing as a "passing" score. Ranking test results on a curve is not the same thing as bias. It is an objective judgement of performance compared to other test takes.

 

7.  Because freshman science courses start over anyway and math& English are already covered by the SAT/ACT

 

The math on the SAT/ACT is only algebra, geo and a tiny bit of trig. Algebra 2 and precalculus are not tested.

And the freshman science courses start at such a  low level precisely because the students come to college with such a pathetic high school science education. It is a disgrace that one third of my students who are majoring in sciences (I am not talking about English majors) have had no physics in high school so that I am forced to start from the beginning - while in other countries, colleges can build on a mandatory high school education in all  basic science disciplines. It is a waste of time for the students who are prepared.

 

8.  Because they are inaccessible for some applicants

 

So is the SAT itself.

 

9.  Because the College Board is a money-grubbing monopoly, with less than adequate quality control

 

Now THERE I agree wholeheartedly. As I said, I would much rather see a national standardized exit exam for college bound high schoolers in all disciplines (that is not multiple choice). But under the current circumstances, the subject tests are the best thing available for outside validation.

 

[Jane in NC]

1.  Because it is NOT the norm.

 

2.  Because we did not have to back in the day and there is no evidence that either high school or college education has improved since then (and certainly no evidence that SAT Subject tests have improved education)

 

3.  Because it encourages (requires) teaching to the test

 

4.  Because the College Board is using testing to try to force its agenda on both college and high school course development

 

5.  Because it implies that one is lying on the transcript (guilty til proven innocent)

 

6.  Because it is not an unbiased assessment of actual learning of course material.  It is scored ON A CURVE, forcing some people to fail. 

 

7.  Because freshman science courses start over anyway and math& English are already covered by the SAT/ACT

 

8.  Because they are inaccessible for some applicants

 

9.  Because the College Board is a money-grubbing monopoly, with less than adequate quality control

 

Look, I share some of your concerns regarding the power of the College Board, but I disagree with your assessment that outside verification of some aspects of a transcript (homeschool or brick and mortar) is essentially a charge that the transcript contains lies. 

 

The scope and sequence of courses can vary greatly from school to school--even with a state curriculum.  The state unis here in NC are probably familiar with the rigor of coursework at most high schools in the state; however fairly or unfairly, I suspect that judgment is passed.  But consider a school like Duke.  They require all applicants (not just homeschoolers) to either take the SAT and two subjects or the ACT with writing. I assume that a university like Duke which draws applicants from around the country would use these tests for a better baseline than transcripts in which course names can vary within geographic regions. 

 

The SAT is not a knowledge based test but a supposed indicator of how well a student will perform in college. The subject tests are knowledge based as is the ACT.  (I have considerable doubt that either of the standardized writing exams indicate overall writing ability.  Instead they demonstrate the ability to address a silly prompt in a short amount of time, a sort of "BS" quotient as far as I am concerned.)  Universities with thousands of applicants seek some way to compare apples to apples which must be a challenge given how every state has different high school graduation requirements.

 

So power has been ceded to the College Board (SAT, SAT subjects, AP) and the ACT, Inc.

 

We viewed the college application process as a two pronged endeavor. The first hoop was acceptance; the second merit aid.  Did test scores help my son with the latter?  Probably, although I would like to think that interviews, essays, reading lists, course descriptions, etc. also sold him to colleges.  Ultimately I will never know.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

GWN, I agree with your list in general, but i guess I don't see how it applies to just the 2s. Have the ACT or SAT improved the quality of education? I guess what I don't understand is why the 2s are the arbitrary line in the sand.

 

I totally agree that neither the SAT nor the ACT have improved anything but the bottom line at the College Board. My Dad went up to Case and sat for their test.  Seems to have worked rather well.  Individual tests would seriously reduce the number of kids applying to 20 colleges.  

 

I draw the line at the 2s because one test is much easier (logistically) than many (was it 6 that Georgetown wanted?)  Also, everyone (including the colleges) knows that the SAT (originally an aptitude test) is all about test-taking skills, whereas people (and colleges) seem to think that the 2s actually test knowledge.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

School quality has declined so much that I would not trust a transcript.

 

School quality has varied since day one.  That's what bussing was all about.

 

 

 

What is that agenda?

 

From what I can tell, process over knowledge - a further step down the road of "you can look it up, there's no need to actually learn it", demonstrated by less "breadth" and more application.

 

The College Board is no longer trying to design courses "modeled on a comparable college course".

http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/ap/IN120084785_BiologyCED_Effective_Fall_2012_Revised_lkd.pdf

It is redesigning courses and expecting high school and college teachers to conform.

 

From the Score Summary from this thread:

 http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/478240-college-board-score-summary-for-first-new-ap-bio-exam/

 

College faculty who participated in the AP Biology standard setting agree that their own students are similarly challenged, and that the redesigned AP Biology program is the new gold standard, one that gives them confidence that AP students earning qualifying exam scores deserve placement and will be much better prepared for science majors than students who take their own colleges’ introductory biology courses. The college faculty participating on the panel sang the praises of AP teachers for teaching a course that is now an exemplar for college-level introductory biology.

 

It is trying to :

The AP Biology redesigned course reduces breadth, shifts the instructional emphasis from content to skills, and promotes the complex thinking and reasoning skills essential for in-depth study at the college level.(http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/courses/teachers_corner/2117.html)

 

 

 

There is no failing, because there is no such thing as a "passing" score. Ranking test results on a curve is not the same thing as bias. It is an objective judgement of performance compared to other test takes.

 

From what I've read on these forums, anything under 700 is considered failing.

 

 

 

The math on the SAT/ACT is only algebra, geo and a tiny bit of trig. Algebra 2 and precalculus are not tested.

 

 

They don't appear to be tested on the Math I Subject test either.

[Jane in NC]

I totally agree that neither the SAT nor the ACT have improved anything but the bottom line at the College Board. My Dad went up to Case and sat for their test.  Seems to have worked rather well.  Individual tests would seriously reduce the number of kids applying to 20 colleges.  

 

I draw the line at the 2s because one test is much easier (logistically) than many (was it 6 that Georgetown wanted?)  Also, everyone (including the colleges) knows that the SAT (originally an aptitude test) is all about test-taking skills, whereas people (and colleges) seem to think that the 2s actually test knowledge.

 

Doesn't this impose an even greater travel burden on students applying to unis around the country?

 

On a side note, my son's college required him to take several placement exams upon arrival.  Because of his AP Calc credit, he was able to skip enrolling in a math class (with its required placement), but he did take Latin, French, and Chemistry placements.  All of the foreign language classes required a placement exam (I think).  As I recall, Chemistry placements were given despite dual enrollment, AP, SAT subject scores, etc. 

 

The point is that Admissions may be looking for one thing; the actual departments may be looking for something else.