Discussion of "More Advanced Work" as a trend

[regentrude]

My oldest is seven. In what ways do you see pre-school extended into elementary school?

 

I found the treatment of elementary students in school very pre-school like, especially coming from a country where kids are given a lot more freedom. Just a few examples that, back home, would be considered appropriate for 4 year olds, but ridiculous for 7 year olds:

the entire class being led to the bathroom at prescribed times by the teacher (as opposed to scheduled breaks between classes during which those who need to can use the restroom independently.)

strict rules for snacks, at one prescribed time  (as opposed to everybody brings whatever they want from home and eats it in the breaks between classes if they happen to feel hungry)

kids kept waiting to be physically handed off to a parent in the afternoon (as opposed to letting kids go their merry ways when school is out)

 

Or in out-of school situations:

parents sitting at the sidelines watching during all sports practices or activities

parents hanging around during their kids' playdates at other kids' houses or staying during birthday parties (back home, NOBODY would do that for school age kids, unless the moms themselves are close friends who like to hang out.)

 

It is such a pervasive cultural difference, but I have a hard time coming up with more specific examples since those days are, fortunately, long past for us.

 

Adding a few more thoughts:

generally, I see one big issue parents doing for kids what the kids could, and should, do for themselves. I have encountered middle school age kids who were unable to use knife and fork because they are not expected to cut their own meat at home - mommy did that. I find that pathetic.

[snowbeltmom]

I found the treatment of elementary students in school very pre-school like, especially coming from a country where kids are given a lot more freedom. 

My kids also noticed a big difference between their Montessori school (even at the pre-school level) and their elementary classrooms.

In their public schools, there was a set time each day when the kids had to line up and go to the bathroom (whether they had to go then or not, those times were their only opportunities) At their Montessori school, they simply used the bathroom when they needed to.

 

Also, in their Montessori school, when they were hungry, they simply got out their snack to eat.  That practice was simply unheard of at the public school.

 

The practice at the ps that my oldest absolutely hated (he only lasted 10 days in the ps) had to do with homework.  At the Montessori school, he was completely responsible for getting his assignments completed. The ps required that a parent sign off on every single one of the student's homework assignments in order for the student to receive credit.  Even at age 9, this practice made him furious.  He told me that he was responsible enough to take care of his assignments himself, and he felt like the teachers didn't trust him if they required me to sign off on his work.  I completely agreed with his assessment.  The school, however, did not.  It was a looooong 10 days for all of us.

 

My 12 yr old dd went away to sleepaway camp this summer for 5 days with some of her ps friends.  The girls stayed in the dorms on a college campus that was 5 hours away.  I was shocked when my dd came home and told me that the moms of two of her friends actually stayed at a local hotel and came onto campus every day to see how the girls were doing.  My dd thought that was horrible.

[FaithManor]

Agreeing with both Snowbeltmom and Regentrude, it's the hovering, do everything for your kid, don't let them try, prevent them from even the slightest chance of personal failure, parenting and teaching that contributes to this.

 

Local issues - non-special needs children who still throw themselves to the floor, kicking and screaming when they do not get their way at six or seven years of age. CHildren who are capable of tying their shoes, or buttoning their coat, or putting their winter hat on their head because mommy always does that for them, children who are 5 years old and still drink from spill proof sippy cups (I wonder if they will take them to college?), elementary school students who take their grapes to the teacher and expect him or her to remove the stems for them, being told what color of crayon to use on each part of the picture so all of the pictures will be "perfect" with no more choice being given to the student, rotating aparauses on the playground according to the recess aide's whistle so the children do not have to learn to share, nor do they have to manage their time and then throw a fit when the recess bell rings because they didn't have time left for the swings, parents who cut food for 6th graders, 8th graders who have never handled a paring knife, 4-H parents that FREAK OUT because we are using exacto knives with middle schoolers, 15 year olds that have never packed their own lunch, nor been responsible for lunch money, teens who have never actually HELD CASH IN THEIR HANDS, nor used a debit card, or written a check because mom and dad pay for everything and don't let little Buford have $5.00 to figure out how to spend, 16 year olds that have never ordered their own food at a restaurant, not even McDonald's, it goes on and on. Staggers.the.imagination.

 

We have a rocket team parent duo that hovers so much they totally flipped out when we said we were not going to be personally responsible for teenagers spending money in D.C. They were LIVID when we refused to hold their 15 and 16 year old sons' money and choose what souvenirs their children could buy, and pay for it from their envelopes of cash. They expected us to order their food for them as well. They called every few minutes the first hour of the road trip to give us more instructions - "Make sure they take their vitamins, make sure they drink enough water, make sure they don't leave their socks under the hotel bed, make sure they don't lose their cell phones, make sure...". Dh stopped answering his phone. For 2014, one of them has a school obligation he will not be able to get out of if the team qualifies again for Finals, so he won't be able to leave with the team and will need to fly. OH MY WORD! Though she claims this kid is going to go to college, I an't imagine it unless she's planning on going along so she can wipe his tushy for him! She's FLIPPING OUT because someone could kidnap him. Really???? it will be a straight through flight and one of us will be at baggage claim waiting for him. She wants the airline to assign a flight attendant to escort him to baggage claim and check our ID before picking him because I guess she figures he may suffer an untimely case of total blindness and not be able to identify the 4-H leaders who have mentored him these past three years! Thef irst trips she was losing it because we would be taking the metro, and she was just certain he would fall on to the tracks. I'd like to say she's an unusual, extreme case. Unfortunately, not so much. We finally told the hovering parents that they can't stay at 4-H meetings, and have a nice team of logicallly thinking, emotionally stable parents who stay to help us when we need it and that's usually just for the 9 and 10 year olds until they get the hang of how we do things, or in case someone doesn't have the fine motor skills to handle an exacto knife, soldering iron, hand saw, or drill without some guidance.

 

I am not sure where all of this irrational fear came from, but I suspect that it has to do with schools being supremely afraid of liability because we have such a litigious society, and a media that spoon feeds sensationalist, statistically improbable horror stories to the masses so that everyone thinks disaster is lurking around every.single.corner. Our culture is being inculcated to become paralyzed by fear.

[Murphy101]

I think it starts even before preschool.

 

I had a relative tell me she was worried her baby wasn't crawling yet. She fretted it was because she was using holders too much. What should she do?

 

Uh? Stop using the holders and put the baby in the floor.

 

Omg. You'd have thought I said to toss the kid off a cliff. She actually said she didn't think that was safe. Her house is immaculate. There's no reason a 10 month old baby can't play in the floor while mom folds laundry or makes dinner. smh

 

Carseats until age 12.

 

School bus rides for elementary kids that live less than a mile from the school.

 

Screaming at kids for climbing trees or playing whatever good guy/bad guy games.

 

I know these won't make me popular. But it's still my view. Not arguing it. Someone asked for some examples and those were some I had.

 

Generally not letting kids do for themselves.

[Nscribe]

Confession of a former smotherer:

Wow, and I thought I was overprotective.  Dd is an only and I will freely admit being timid about some things as she was bungling along in the early years.  I recognized it early and found people to help with things like swimming, learning to cut with knives and so forth.  I would go far away and let them work their magic.  She thus was swimming very well by age 5, without formal lessons, and so forth.  I would have felt awful if I let my anxieties prevent her from thriving in the world.  It would have crippled her.  I remember one time when she was about 3 realizing she had never been really, really dirty.  I purposely turned the hose on the yard, hoed an area and the two of us rolled in the mud just so that I could live with myself (it was also really great fun).  I ultimately found that being around large families with many kids gave me some good guidance to see what can be done at what age and stage.  By the time she started K, she was very independent and self reliant, to the point it was recognized by her teacher who pointed out some of the things kids couldn't or wouldn't do.

 

I revisited this issue this Spring.  She took drivers ed and I realized after she was done that she had never pumped gas.  Next time we needed to fill up, I made her get out and talked her through the whole bit from card swiping to selecting octane levels.  Now, she has to do the pumping if we are together.  It can be easy to forget what we don't explicitly let them do and easy to forget the confidences in being they gain from doing.  I still cringe a bit when she goes off to a camp or exercises her wings in some other ways, but I guess at least I realize it is an issue and try hard not to let it be.

[Luckymama]

I'm sorry Faith, but it sounds like Michigan is royally messed up!

[FaithManor]

I'm sorry Faith, but it sounds like Michigan is royally messed up!

Yes,in my area it is very bad. I doubt it is this horrible everywhere.

 

With aging parents incurring significant health problems, we are going to be hard

pressed to get out of here anytime soon.

 

But, I do believe what we do in the 4H club is one way combat the problem at least for a small number of kids.

 

I would like to say this diatribe does not include the kids raised on the area

farms. These kids have been chasing steers since they were little and driving

tractors since they could reach the pedals. As a general rule, they are a capable

bunch.

[smfmommy]

When I was in college I helped with the incoming freshman during the weekends where they would register for classes, take placement tests, and get to know the campus.

 

Even then there were "velcro" parents that wouldn't let go of their children (well young adults).  I saw parents erasing class registration forms and signing up the children for the classes they felt important.  There were certain sessions for the students that parents were .not.  allowed to attend.  But they would be hovering around the doorway. 

 

But I had to laugh at someone mentioning a 15 year old who had never packed a lunch for themselves.  I don't think my 16 year old has ever done that.  She has helped pack picnics for the family, and makes dinner regularly, and helps the little ones with their lunches, but no she's never packed a lunch for herself. :laugh:

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Throughout this thread one thought keeps popping up ... aren't we fortunate in this country to have the option to legally homeschool? We can take the free public education, we can enroll them in a private school, or we can choose to teach them ourselves, or be facilitators of their education and utilize whatever resources we think will best meet their needs. We are blessed. In our homeschool more advanced work wasn't a trend, it was a necessity.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I've read a bit about helicopter parents, but wow, FaithManor, you seem to really know some insane ones! 

 

Threads like this are like a kick-in-the-pants in some ways. I currently stay during Tigger's gymnastics practices (partly because it is like a forced break for me), but I will be rethinking this. Maybe I should use that time, at least sometimes, to go do errands. Also, with all the recent current molestation scandals, I haven't been too interested in letting my kids try Sunday School. Maybe we should rethink that as well.

 

At least I can feel better about expecting (and making) my kids to clean up after themselves and do more chores than most kids their age.

[Arcadia]

She took drivers ed and I realized after she was done that she had never pumped gas.

Teach her how to jump start the car and how to change tires too :) My neighbor had to call her hubby for SOS.

Another thing is we stop using credit card to pay for gasoline as there were series of fraud at Arco gas stations. So we learn to pay by cash.

In Oregon, hubby nearly pump his own gasoline but you are not suppose to.

[Wildcat]

 

 

Why? BECAUSE the students are paying lots of money!

Colleges care about student retention, because retention and graduation rates are significant factors for the desirability of a college which translates directly into applications, student numbers, tuition revenue.

Professors are under pressure not to fail too many students. I would very much like to put the responsibility on the students and just spend my time and energy teaching, but the admission wants professors to make sure that "no student is left behind". Part of this is  giving them "incentives" to attend class, in form of pop quizzes or attendance points or dropping students for too many missed assignments.We have to use an electronic alert system to notify students that they have been missing class and failing exams - as if the student did not know that he did not show up or fail the exam which has been graded and returned to him and has grades posted online.

None of this is treating the students as adults, but since high school has conditioned students to expect hand holding, the statistics show that passing rates and retention benefit from these measures - so the admission "encourages" instructors to employ those tools. Trust me, most profs would rather be left alone to just....teach.

 

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly!!! There aren't enough "likes" to show how much I agree with this. My "rant", if you will, was at those who make the rules the teachers & profs have to follow. Required attendance in college was just such a shock. I understand about retention, but heavens, whatever happened to letting people fail & learning from their mistakes? Oh, I know... it all boils down to money.

 

One of my senior-level business classes was, I kid you not, *completely* vocabulary. Seriously. It was a 2- hour semester-long class with a 10 minute break each class period and the prof informed us that the uni *made* him take attendance before class and again after the break. Because the course was exclusively vocab, all he did the entire semester was **read to us out of the book** word for word. It was pure torture. While I would have rather had a root canal w/o drugs than go to that class, I really felt for him. He must have been as bored as we were!

 

I can't express how much I wish that teachers were allowed to TEACH, and to heck with those who have/expect to be coddled. Why on Earth did extra credit for spelling your name correctly on a test in a high school geometry class become acceptable? --- true story.

 

I so, so, SO feel for those of you who *want* to teach and have to jump through such ridiculous hoops to keep kids in class or to keep them from failing because of money. What ever happened to colleges being in the education business?!

 

 

My oldest is seven. In what ways do you see pre-school extended into elementary school? How can those of us in the earlier stages of the parenting game make sure we don't fall into this cultural trap? I have already read Joanne Calderwood's book "The Self-Propelled Advantage," although that is mostly about academics.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one reading this thread that needs practical idea for the under ten age group. When I think about people I see, they either don't supervise their kids enough (like the moms at the pool who are off reading while their three year old "swims" in 3-4 deep water) or they give their kid adult responsibilities but even less freedom than average, all while getting upset over this extended adolescence (the patriarchal crowd I used to go to church with). I see a weird mix of people who expect their 1st graders to keep the two year old from drowning in the pond on the one hand, to those who would be seriously upset if their adult child ever went on a single date.

 

In essense, what we did is we let them "do" --- let the kids climb trees, but teach them about 'testing' branches & going too high. Let them ride bikes w/o training wheels, and teach them how to fall safely in the grass. Let them roller blade and teach them about hills. Let them fall. Let them poke ant hills and tell them to put a damp cloth over the bites if they aren't fast enough to move out of the way. Supervise by being near enough to avoid serious injury and be quick with a hug & Band Aid when they skin their knees, but not so close that you protect them from everything.

 

I think it starts even before preschool.

 

I had a relative tell me she was worried her baby wasn't crawling yet. She fretted it was because she was using holders too much. What should she do?

 

Uh? Stop using the holders and put the baby in the floor.

 

Omg. You'd have thought I said to toss the kid off a cliff. She actually said she didn't think that was safe. Her house is immaculate. There's no reason a 10 month old baby can't play in the floor while mom folds laundry or makes dinner. smh

 

Carseats until age 12.

 

School bus rides for elementary kids that live less than a mile from the school.

 

Screaming at kids for climbing trees or playing whatever good guy/bad guy games.

 

I know these won't make me popular. But it's still my view. Not arguing it. Someone asked for some examples and those were some I had.

 

Generally not letting kids do for themselves.

 

Here, the bus stops at every house. Every house. We live in a safe neighborhood in a safe town. It's nuts.

 

Sometimes I feel like I need to join a meeting of sorts.... Hello, I'm Wildcat and I searched high and low for a WALKER for my ds because I thought the Exercauser was silly.  Hello, I'm Wildcat and I encouraged my kids to climb higher in the trees. Hello, I'm Wildcat and I let my kids run on the pool deck. Hello, I'm Wildcat and I think helmet laws are a joke unless trick riding or mountainbiking, but my kids wore them until they reached the age when it wasn't mandatory, as we didn't want to pay a fine. Hello, I'm Wildcat and I let my kids swing as high as they wanted to on the swings. Hello, I'm Wildcat and my kids have never had a broken bone and only one trip to the ER for a single stich to the head which involved a sleepy toddler wearing socks on a wood floor, and a hard corner.... nothing 'dangerous' was involved. Hello, I'm Wildcat and I'm an anomally among my friends.

 

Confession of a former smotherer:

Wow, and I thought I was overprotective.  Dd is an only and I will freely admit being timid about some things as she was bungling along in the early years.  I recognized it early and found people to help with things like swimming, learning to cut with knives and so forth.  I would go far away and let them work their magic.  She thus was swimming very well by age 5, without formal lessons, and so forth.  I would have felt awful if I let my anxieties prevent her from thriving in the world.  It would have crippled her.  I remember one time when she was about 3 realizing she had never been really, really dirty.  I purposely turned the hose on the yard, hoed an area and the two of us rolled in the mud just so that I could live with myself (it was also really great fun).  I ultimately found that being around large families with many kids gave me some good guidance to see what can be done at what age and stage.  By the time she started K, she was very independent and self reliant, to the point it was recognized by her teacher who pointed out some of the things kids couldn't or wouldn't do.

 

I revisited this issue this Spring.  She took drivers ed and I realized after she was done that she had never pumped gas.  Next time we needed to fill up, I made her get out and talked her through the whole bit from card swiping to selecting octane levels.  Now, she has to do the pumping if we are together.  It can be easy to forget what we don't explicitly let them do and easy to forget the confidences in being they gain from doing.  I still cringe a bit when she goes off to a camp or exercises her wings in some other ways, but I guess at least I realize it is an issue and try hard not to let it be.

 

No worries. I cut ds' food until he was well past the age where he could cut it himself ~~ I just didn't realize he was ready and he never asked to do it!  I made up for it, though, as we bought him his first pocket knife when he was eight and he cut his finger before we had even pulled out of the parking lot. I handed him a Band Aid, he bandaged it up and kept on playing with it.

 

I think it's normal to be nervous/scared/over protective at first. It sounds like you are doing great. :001_smile:

 

[Wildcat]

Yes,in my area it is very bad. I doubt it is this horrible everywhere.

 

With aging parents incurring significant health problems, we are going to be hard

pressed to get out of here anytime soon.

 

But, I do believe what we do in the 4H club is one way combat the problem at least for a small number of kids.

 

I would like to say this diatribe does not include the kids raised on the area

farms. These kids have been chasing steers since they were little and driving

tractors since they could reach the pedals. As a general rule, they are a capable

bunch.

 

Actually, I suspect it's pretty widespread. I made a comment earlier about someone who wouldn't let their 17 year old cross the street to get the mail on a rural, flat, straight road. I know someone else who still makes their now 18 year old still sit in the back seat (said 18year old doesn't have a driving permit yet and isn't allowed to try for one). Dd has a friend (16) who isn't allowed to go to the mall by herself to meet friends---- at least one parent tags along following the girls while they wander~~ remember, I am in a very safe town. Another (16 y/o) can't go to the movies with a group unless a parent goes, too. Yet another friend's father sits outside the theater while the kids are in a movie. I could go on. The overprotectiveness I see in my area is shocking to me.

 

I agree about farm kids, though. Thankfully, they are still allowed to experience life and learn from it, and to mature!

 

I've read a bit about helicopter parents, but wow, FaithManor, you seem to really know some insane ones! 

 

Threads like this are like a kick-in-the-pants in some ways. I currently stay during Tigger's gymnastics practices (partly because it is like a forced break for me), but I will be rethinking this. Maybe I should use that time, at least sometimes, to go do errands. Also, with all the recent current molestation scandals, I haven't been too interested in letting my kids try Sunday School. Maybe we should rethink that as well.

 

At least I can feel better about expecting (and making) my kids to clean up after themselves and do more chores than most kids their age.

 

I stayed during dd's dance lessons because the school was small and there were tons of people crammed in the halls waiting for their kids. I was afraid she would be trampled by the many rowdy kids (siblings of kids in classes) while going from one class to the next (dd was three). I was astounded at the number of moms who were there for three hours each night and had brought camp chairs, dinner, etc, and set up in the halls while their TEENS took classes. The school was close to any number of places to eat, a Wal-Mart, etc. I was dumbfounded. I was happy when dd only danced for two years. The second year, I dropped her off and got "the look" from other moms because I didn't stay and wait. I hated that place.

 

 

[Murphy101]

Lol. I never pumped gas until I was 22. Over 3 years after getting my license at 19 and 3 years of marriage. Why? Because I didn't drive and why would I fill up someone else's car? And I bet I have not put gas in my own vehicle more than a dozen times. Dh makes sure it is full. :wub: And now my teens fill it for me. ;)

 

There is plenty of stuff I didn't know and wish I'd had someone hold my hand. For example, college...

 

You know what?

 

I walked my kids down and registered them. Because they are learning. They are learning from me what questions to ask, reciprocity agreements, degree plans.. I bet if you asked any 20 freshmen they wouldn't have a clue. We're paying big bucks (to us anyways) and we can't afford to screw around about it for 6 years like so many students do. So I'm going to hover for a semester and touch base regularly.

 

But by golly, I've got no problem with them walking or taking the bus there every day and I sure don't do their homework for them or paying for most of it themselves.

[Laura Corin]

 

Carseats until age 12.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you said except this.  If a child's knees don't bend over the edge of the seat while his bottom is against the seat back, then the seat belt cannot hold him snugly and he is at risk of submarining.  This has nothing to do with whether a child is allowed independence.

 

Hobbes won't hit 5' until he is at least 14.  He came out of his booster this year.  Meanwhile, he has been roaming privately-owned public-access woodland alone for several years, and takes the public bus alone into town to meet his friends there.

 

L

[FaithManor]

And it isn't so much a laundry list of very specific experiences that a child needs to have in order to he a successful adult as it is apparent just simply using commonsense and allowing their child to do

the things that are reasonable for them to try at the time...it's about a parent fostering some

independence and life skills in their kids.

 

Someone mentioned the packed lunch idea. It's not so specific...that was only one example. The concept is more along the lines of letting them learn to prepare snacks and foods. You know, to be able to leave your twelve year old for two hours at home and if he gets hungry he can make himself a sandwich. The 12 year old next door cannot do this. He really can't do anything, and he is failing miserably in school. His mother still holds the kleenex for him so he can blow his nose and she still zips his coat. He was tested for

l.d.'s and has none. He's just a near teen who has been completely infantalyzed by his mother and

and practically hysterical, hovering grandmother.

 

Ultimately, the complete lack of maturity comes home to roost. The local high schools just keep dumbing

down in order to accommodate these very large yet "little" kids. Yes, we do have very serious crisis in

our elementary and middle schools with content coverage and mastery. But the problem is not entirely

academic. It is a situation that is severely exacerbated by the immaturity of young minds as they head to school at five years old with the life skills of a two year old and their brain function and emotional coping

mechanisms continue lagging behind in a system so bent on micromanaging every aspect of the student's life that meaningful growth and skill attainment is difficult to achieve. Then college professors, tech

instructors, and employers get these supposed adults and the real mess becomes startlingly apparent.

 

All going back to the topic of high school rigor. It used to be that oft times what passes for very

challenging high school work today was regular or average work 40 to 50 years ago in this nation.

 

I do think that many parents do use APs as a method of trying to help their capable kid stand out a bit

from the rest of the pack since so much of the pack is fairly incompetant and illiterate. This is one

of the few tools available to parents in the public system. However there can be some negatives to this

approach one of which is neglecting other important skills and opportunities. The other is possibly

overwhelming the student since all of those exams occur in one week and for younger students, this can

be too much pressure.

 

But for homeschoolers who have more flexibility and hopefully see a wider picture, we have the opportunity to challenge the status quot and make meaningful choices for our kids. Sometimes pursuing a passion, or

going deeper into an unusualnsubject. With a firm foundation in the early years and little need for

remediation, the fairly mature kid may very well be able to have his cake and eat it too! Ie. Ap's, dual enrollment, unusual electives, developing talents and passions, andnmaybe even having some fun along the

way. However, I am more than willing to admit that if fundamental skills need remediation or the student

is very immature, this may not be the case. In these instances, we just do the best we can knowing that

it doesn't have to be completely figured out by the time the kid is 18. There are still options

available for helping them beyond that golden age if the student is willing.

[Nscribe]

All going back to the topic of high school rigor. It used to be that oft times what passes for very

challenging high school work today was regular or average work 40 to 50 years ago in this nation.

......

 

The other is possibly overwhelming the student since all of those exams occur in one week and for younger students, this can

be too much pressure.

I really do believe today's "challenging" work would have been average when I was in high school (which wasn't 40 years ago, but sometimes it feels that way).

 

On the second quoted point I would add there are many factors that can influence whether AP's get done.  Dd is limited because the exams coincide with performance dates.  A good friend of hers takes fewer AP exams because they travel widely during April, May and June when the father's business allows him to be away.  Another friend does at most one AP a year because they compete in a sport that has trials during that two week span.  When you consider the students who really could be sitting for the exams and likely doing well, who don't for reasons having nothing to do with the rigor of their coursework, it really makes me see it as an indicator but not a conclusive one.  How do you compare the kids who spend 15 plus hours a week on a sport/performing art/time consuming hobby/work experience and take one AP a year with those who sit for 3 or more AP's a year and do not do these consistently time consuming tasks?  I increasingly feel you can't compare them, they are just different, and either way may show a very real propensity to be very successful in college.

 

I heard a stat recently that noted we have fewer STEM college graduates today than in the 80's.  Simultaneously, we have far more people as a percentage of the population with 4 year degrees.  This really makes me think about what GGardner said in the quote I posted to begin the thread. 

[elegantlion]

nm 

[Laura Corin]

 How do you compare the kids who spend 15 plus hours a week on a sport/performing art/time consuming hobby/work experience and take one AP a year with those who sit for 3 or more AP's a year and do not do these consistently time consuming tasks?  I increasingly feel you can't compare them, they are just different, and either way may show a very real propensity to be very successful in college.

 

 

To me (coming from a different system) excelling in academics is the priority, unless one is pursuing a hobby which is, in fact, a career path, or is in financial need so has to work many hours.  For me it's 'academic excellence plus', not 'academic excellence or'.

 

Calvin plays the bass guitar, plays in a jazz band, writes poetry and sings in choirs.  He uses these as breathers between academic work - they do not overwhelm his week.

 

L

[Nscribe]

To me (coming from a different system) excelling in academics is the priority, unless one is pursuing a hobby which is, in fact, a career path, or is in financial need so has to work many hours.  For me it's 'academic excellence plus', not 'academic excellence or'.

 

Calvin plays the bass guitar, plays in a jazz band, writes poetry and sings in choirs.  He uses these as breathers between academic work - they do not overwhelm his week.

 

L

Perhaps I mistated the point.  The issue is not a reduction in academic rigor or priority, it is one of how that appears on paper.  Dd will likely wind up taking about 3 to 4 fewer AP exams overall than she would if she did not have the schedule conflict.  However, she will take the same or equivalent coursework.  The friend who travels and thus is unable to sit for AP's (or rarely is able to do so), currently is fluent in 2 foreign languages and pretty close in a third because of the combination of time in country and parent's native language.  This student will not sit for the corresponding AP's because the decision between travel and an exam falls to travel (but is planning to knock out the SAT 2's since they have more flexible test dates).  My point is not an either or, it is how the demands of one may make the other appear less rigorous or challenging a path on a transcript.  The kid who sits for 3-4 AP's a year but does not engage in other activities beyond a hobby level will have a far more academically impressive transcript. 

 

Maybe the question is where does the "academic excellence plus" become validated on a transcript.  I don't know that answer.

 

We see a lot of kids in the performing arts world who make very little or no effort at any academic rigor.  They are on a different journey.

 

I do hear discussion locally about quantity of AP's versus quality, which tends to leave me really feeling micromanaging is going on a good bit to jockey for something.  When you see a kid crying in because the one AP Calc class offered every other year is full before their registration logs, it really makes you think.

[Nscribe]

To me, they are promoting memorizers over thinkers, but as the discussion earlier says, memorizers are desired by certain colleges & AP Bio will show who is great at memorizing.  From what I've seen social studies and english at that level are no harder than reg ed ss and engl were  when I was in high schoool, and at that time that level of work was offered to everyone that was not in special education. As a percentage, there are more students studying math jr and sr year than in my time. I do agree that there comes a point where the student should be deemed capable, and instead of competing in an arms race for a seat at a selective college, go off and pursue his interests, but many value that seat enough to compete very well.

Memorizers versus thinkers...can see that.

 

Your note about S. Studies and English actually jives with what I see too.  I also don't remember the math participation rates, then again our sequencing was different (no pre-alg or "pre-calc" and alg 2 was not a designation I recall, but I was not in a typical program even for the time). 

 

There are times of year I have learned to avoid going near lobbies for D's events because there is so much angst by parents over placements and schedules.  One trend we are seeing of late is calls or questions about how to take AP courses away from school from parents who know we homeschool.  I get one of those calls and I wonder about a full in school load with that one more AP...and the whole dual enrollment thing is just a whole other area.

[Arcadia]

 My point is not an either or, it is how the demands of one may make the other appear less rigorous or challenging a path on a transcript.  The kid who sits for 3-4 AP's a year but does not engage in other activities beyond a hobby level will have a far more academically impressive transcript. 

 

.......

 

I do hear discussion locally about quantity of AP's versus quality, which tends to leave me really feeling micromanaging is going on a good bit to jockey for something.  When you see a kid crying in because the one AP Calc class offered every other year is full before their registration logs, it really makes you think.

Forgot if we are in the same neck of woods.

There is definitely micromanaging of APs in my area.  The STEM-oriented kids here who goes AP crazy are also involved in math competitions, science competitions, robotics competitions and sometimes band competitions. Plenty of STEM kids are strong in music in my area. Some kids are going for the sports scholarships in gymnastics and swimming. They are also going for either leadership positions and/or internship positions. We went to a state park event recently and the park ranger has summer interns.  The state park events for children have more than ten Brock microscopes for "lab work".  The national parks have internship programs too.  Here it is too easy to find an academically high performing high schooler.  Parents micromanage to get an impressive all rounder transcript. 

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Maybe the question is where does the "academic excellence plus" become validated on a transcript.  I don't know that answer.

 

 

 

I think that the difference is that in the UK everyone takes exams, mostly within the same few weeks in the summer.  All activities for children of that age group stop for that period, so there are rarely clashes.  

 

ETA: and if there were any clashes, the exams would win out.  It's nigh on impossible to get into university without exams, so there's no contest as to which event would be skipped.

 

L

[FaithManor]

Forgot if we are in the same neck of woods.

There is definitely micromanaging of APs in my area.  The STEM-oriented kids here who goes AP crazy are also involved in math competitions, science competitions, robotics competitions and sometimes band competitions. Plenty of STEM kids are strong in music in my area. Some kids are going for the sports scholarships in gymnastics and swimming. They are also going for either leadership positions and/or internship positions. We went to a state park event recently and the park ranger has summer interns.  The state park events for children have more than ten Brock microscopes for "lab work".  The national parks have internship programs too.  Here it is too easy to find an academically high performing high schooler.  Parents micromanage to get an impressive all rounder transcript. o

And I blame this kind of insanity on the cuts in financial aid, reduction in merit aid, and rise in tuition/room/board. Parents who might have been more inclined to take a moderate approach, are desperate to have their kid be at the top of the competitive food chain. I know we 

sometimes we have to stop and evaluate what we are doing to make sure the kids aren't overloaded, stressed. We need some merit money too!

 

My neck of the woods is just the opposite. There is such a celebration of mediocrity, that a bright, motivated kid stands out like a beacon!

I worry about the false sense of security my boys could develop...it would be easy to be lulled into thinking there isn't much competition out there if you live in my county.

 

It was easier when dh and I were applying to college. A decent, didn't have to be top shelf, ACT scores, an extra curricular or two, something pursued maybe to an interesting level such as music, art, volunteer work...nothing extreme, decent grades but a 3.0 or better would suffice, and a reasonable admission essay, and you could go to a good school with some scholarships. Yah, I had it bad because I was a performance major which is sort of like being dissected alive bit by bit until you are nothing more than a quivering mass by the end of freshman juries :D , for most people, just not ridiculous to get into your department of choice. Ivy's have always been their own animal, but most kids with a reasonable education good get into a reputable program without the kind of hoop jumping we see today.

 

Thank your local PS for creating this nightmare...50% of our local high school grads are estimated to read at only a 5th grade level, math not much better despite supposedly passing grades in ALGEBRA 2!!!!

[8filltheheart]

Perhaps I mistated the point.  The issue is not a reduction in academic rigor or priority, it is one of how that appears on paper.  Dd will likely wind up taking about 3 to 4 fewer AP exams overall than she would if she did not have the schedule conflict.  However, she will take the same or equivalent coursework.  The friend who travels and thus is unable to sit for AP's (or rarely is able to do so), currently is fluent in 2 foreign languages and pretty close in a third because of the combination of time in country and parent's native language.  This student will not sit for the corresponding AP's because the decision between travel and an exam falls to travel (but is planning to knock out the SAT 2's since they have more flexible test dates).  My point is not an either or, it is how the demands of one may make the other appear less rigorous or challenging a path on a transcript.  The kid who sits for 3-4 AP's a year but does not engage in other activities beyond a hobby level will have a far more academically impressive transcript. 

 

Maybe the question is where does the "academic excellence plus" become validated on a transcript.  I don't know that answer.

 

We see a lot of kids in the performing arts world who make very little or no effort at any academic rigor.  They are on a different journey.

 

I do hear discussion locally about quantity of AP's versus quality, which tends to leave me really feeling micromanaging is going on a good bit to jockey for something.  When you see a kid crying in because the one AP Calc class offered every other year is full before their registration logs, it really makes you think.

 

 

I think you are mixing and confusing issues.   If someone wants to travel or compete on the days that the APs are being offered, then they are making a decision.   They are deciding that the traveling or the competing has a higher priority than the AP exam on their transcript.   When kids dual enroll or take outside classes or take APs, you lose flexibility.   The question is why go that route?   What are the pros and cons of each?   When our kids are taking classes on the university campus, it means that we are limited by their academic calendar and we better know exactly when finals are scheduled.   Otherwise, yeah, we can make the decision to not use those resources and they can't go on their transcript as such.   A choice.   Does it matter?   The answer is really as simple as it just depends.   If you want to attend a highly competitive university, the decisions you make will impact your likelihood of admission.   Simple reality.   If you are aiming at non-tippy top schools, it probably isn't going to make a lick of difference one way or the other.     

 

FWIW, all those kids taking college classes or being present for AP exams......you don't know that they aren't making personal sacrifices in order to accommodate those decisions.   They just happen to be making different priorities and making sure that they can make those realities happen.

 

As far as the academic excellence plus.....based on all the articles and youtube videos and speakers......no one can answer the question.   It really boils down to making the best decisions for your particular student with the information you have.   Then, simply let go of it and move on.   Life is not over if they don't get into a highly competitive school.   There are 100s of schools to chose from.   If they weren't accepted b/c they didn't take 10 APs while performing 20 hrs a week, the likelihood is that they will actually find a better fit school that matches their drive for performance while balancing solid academics vs. over the top loads.   The kids on various campuses are not equal.   Finding a campus which matches your student's personality is probably far more important than any name.

 

Memorizers versus thinkers...can see that.

...........................

 

There are times of year I have learned to avoid going near lobbies for D's events because there is so much angst by parents over placements and schedules.  One trend we are seeing of late is calls or questions about how to take AP courses away from school from parents who know we homeschool.  I get one of those calls and I wonder about a full in school load with that one more AP...and the whole dual enrollment thing is just a whole other area.

 

Well, I personally think there are a whole lot of generalizations being made that may apply to segments of the student population, but are really not representative of students as a whole.   There are a lot of kids out there that are really high performers and extremely bright that aren't being challenged in the school systems.   APs are the best they have got to challenge them and they can handle all of the APs and then some.   That is not denying that there are many students that are hanging on for dear life and are barely scraping through APs by simply memorizing vast amts of data.   However, that is really more the fault of the concept that everyone needs to be pursuing the highest of high schools or academics vs. promoting educations that fit the needs of the individual.   For all the students that need high school to be high school, that does not negate the fact that there are students that need more.   Those are the students that APs were meant to address.   Since we live in a society of egotists that don't want trophies or scores or winners or losers or Fs, only As, the school system reflects the false ideology that everyone drinks like Kool-aid that everyone is capable of the exact same outcomes.   Hence the push for everyone to take APs.   And the constant lowering of academic standards across the board so that "no one feels bad about themselves."  

 

Instead of being a society that praises excellence for excellence, we have become a society of believing excellence is really arbitrary and undefinable.   Everyone loses.

[regentrude]

  There are a lot of kids out there that are really high performers and extremely bright that aren't being challenged in the school systems.   APs are the best they have got to challenge them and they can handle all of the APs and then some.  

 

 For all the students that need high school to be high school, that does not negate the fact that there are students that need more.   Those are the students that APs were meant to address.   Since we live in a society of egotists that don't want trophies or scores or winners or losers or Fs, only As, the school system reflects the false ideology that everyone drinks like Kool-aid that everyone is capable of the exact same outcomes.   Hence the push for everyone to take APs.   And the constant lowering of academic standards across the board so that "no one feels bad about themselves."  

 

Instead of being a society that praises excellence for excellence, we have become a society of believing excellence is really arbitrary and undefinable.   Everyone loses.

 

8FillTheHeart, just "liking" your post did not do it justice. I just had to quote these snippets, because they sum it up.

It is sad for this country that "elite" is considered a dirty word.

[Nscribe]

...

Now with actual AP, the situation is slightly different. The students who took AP Physics C and got a good score get credit and do not take my course at all. Some students passed the AP B exam, did well, but need calculus based physics; they have an excellent preparation and do very well. Some students took AP C but never took the exam; I had two of  those last semester and they both did very well.

 

So, my feeling is that bad prior physics is no better and often even worse than no prior physics, whereas good prior physics is a definite advantage.

The entire post was interesting, thank you.

 

If the AP's all operate in a similar way in terms of preparation of the students, that would be an encouraging note about the validity of the  program.

[Nscribe]

 

FWIW, all those kids taking college classes or being present for AP exams......you don't know that they aren't making personal sacrifices in order to accommodate those decisions.   They just happen to be making different priorities and making sure that they can make those realities happen.

 

Some are making very large sacrifices and I think in a very real way that speaks well of their dedication to academic achievements and willingness to defer other choices in order to do so. 

[Arcadia]

 

I worry about the false sense of security my boys could develop...it would be easy to be lulled into thinking there isn't much competition out there if you live in my county.

 

I'm sure you and your hubby would be able to inculcate humility in your boys.  Humility can counteract complacency.

 

I hope for your neighbors sake that your county's education officers will eventually pull up their socks.

 

On an off-topic note because both our families like music, hubby memorise and can sing Carmina Burana by Carl Orff quite accurately.  That is all the Latin he "knows". He also knows more German from operas than from textbooks.