Lack of historical perspective

[LibraryLover]

Great books.  

 

They really are. I meant to include The War Horse, and Kipling's poem, My Boy, Jack for WWI.

[8circles]

My father was a child (10-ish) during WWII - the eastern front displaced his family for a time - and will forever carry deep scars.  He has never been able to be more than uncomfortably tolerant of fireworks.  It has shaped him in ways that I'll never know.

[Alice]

I don't know if my experience was typical, but even in an AP American History class,  World War II meant Pearl Harbor, the Holocaust, US internment camps, and nuclear weapons, and that's it.  I had no idea whatsoever about Britain's experience in WWII until I was an adult and started reading on my own.  

 

 

My grandmother was like this about food.  She always had to have a full pantry and we were never allowed to throw away a scrap.  She and my grandfather always refused to talk about the war.  They told a few stories, but I think they wanted to spare us grandchildren the details.

 

My mother was born during WWII in Rotterdam.  She always flinched when she heard a siren-like noise.  We later realised that as a baby and toddler she had been conditioned by this to expect being pulled from her crib or bundled up to be rushed to the air raid shelters.

 

This was my experience in History class as well. 

 

My grandmother was from Paris. I grew up knowing she had met my grandfather during WWII when he was stationed there but never really had any idea of what Paris during the war was like until I was an adult and saw movies like Saving Private Ryan. I had kind of envisioned Paris during the war as Paris now but with German soldiers, having absolutely no background to imagine what war would do to a country.

 

 That’s partially my own blindedness and ignorance but my grandparents pretty much refused to talk about it other than to tell cute stories about how they met on the Metro. My grandfather did tell me once something about how he hated the war and didn’t consider himself a hero. He said he volunteered to be a MP knowing it would keep him more out of the action. He called himself “scared and just wanting to stay alive and not wanting to have to kill anyoneâ€. It was many many years later after they were both dead that I really realized how young they both were. (My grandmother moved here at 19, my grandfather would have been about 25 then so younger when he was there and met here.) It boggles my mind to think about what they lived through and what they saw and it’s one of my biggest regrets that I just half-listened to their stories and didn’t really ask more. I always thought there would be more time. 

 

My husband’s family is Chinese and lived through the Japanese invasion. I also wish I knew more about the details of what they lived through. 

[LibraryLover]

My father was a child (10-ish) during WWII - the eastern front displaced his family for a time - and will forever carry deep scars.  He has never been able to be more than uncomfortably tolerant of fireworks.  It has shaped him in ways that I'll never know.

 

I'm often surprised when people don't understand how far and wide WWII was spread; all the way to the Pacific, to Africa (Hitler wanted that oil as well), Greece (even Greek Jews didn't escape), the British Navy patrolled the waters for escaped Jews headed to Palestine (many boats were sent back, and even Roosevelt sent a ship of refugees back to Europe) , the Eastern Front etc etc.

[Laura Corin]

You all were in it for a long time. :( We (US) only joined in 1917.

 

 

Oh definitely.  I was just trying to explain the devastating fate of French forces in WWI and the likely reluctance to fight long in WWII.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

Ill come right out and say it, although as homeschoolers we read Lewis and Shakespeare, Homer etc., I've spent quite a bit more time with my kids reading All Quiet on the Western Front (should be mandatory), The Things They Carried, Red Scarf Girl, The Killer Angels, Farewell to Manaznar, The Killing Fields (for mature readers only) etc.

 

 

You can't cover everything.  I think by reading books about the experience of people in invaded countries or countries in civil war, you get an understanding of the issues.  You can use that background to imagine what it might be like in Britain in the 1940s or Syria now.

 

L

[LibraryLover]

Oh definitely.  I was just trying to explain the devastating fate of French forces in WWI and the likely reluctance to fight long in WWII.

 

L

 

Oh, I understand. Everyone was war-weary. That's why appeasement was the name of the game at first. "Oh, Ok, take Austria."  There were many anti-war rallies in the states. We didn't even want to deal with the murderous fascism in Spain in the 30's. Only The Soviet Union got involved to help with with that at all. (Hitler was there as well, although against the Soviets.)

 

And you are 100% correct. It's impossible to cover everything. Impossible.

 

What we hope for is empathy.  And anger. But what to do?  Syria is haunting, and happening right now.

[gardenmom5]

I really must stop posting, haha ... but that is a good story!

 

There are a lot of Chinese, Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, etc. in our town ... *everyone* has a story ... 

 

oh, another good book -- "The Long Walk" by Slavomir Rawicz. I also found "We Die Alone" riveting (did I use that word right?!).

when friend was young - his dream was to have his own farm, with pigs, chickens, goat and a cow.  Now, he owns his own home in a nice middle class neighborhood in an affluent suburb/medium city and drives a Mercedes.  and all three of his children have graduated from college.

 

My father was a child (10-ish) during WWII - the eastern front displaced his family for a time - and will forever carry deep scars.  He has never been able to be more than uncomfortably tolerant of fireworks.  It has shaped him in ways that I'll never know.

my fil wouldn't eat fish and rice together, he wouldn't stand in line, and he sure wouldn't "count off".

 

I'm often surprised when people don't understand how far and wide WWII was spread; all the way to the Pacific, to Africa (Hitler wanted that oil as well), Greece (even Greek Jews didn't escape), the British Navy patrolled the waters for escaped Jews headed to Palestine (many boats were sent back, and even Roosevelt sent a ship of refugees back to Europe) , the Eastern Front etc etc.

even with pearl harbor - people think "pearl harbor/ford island".  It was the whole island of Oahu that was getting bombed.

[Mommyof4ks]

I have found that many people see history as a bunch of stories without connection to anything real. I was blessed in high school to take an art history class where the art of various times was tied to the history surrounding the artists, and that was eye opening for me. A lightbulb went off that history is important. Most people do not have the opportunity to make that connection in school, and then life gets in the way of truly educating ourselves about our world past and present.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have found that many people see history as a bunch of stories without connection to anything real. I was blessed in high school to take an art history class where the art of various times was tied to the history surrounding the artists, and that was eye opening for me. A lightbulb went off that history is important. Most people do not have the opportunity to make that connection in school, and then life gets in the way of truly educating ourselves about our world past and present.

 

Yes this.  But also they see it as a bunch of stories without a connection to each other.  So they don't see the whole fabric of history and so are not going to recognize the geographical extent of WWII or the timeline in certain geographical locations and how that influenced the whole.  And they aren't going to see the connection between certain things that happened before WWII to what happened during WWII to what happened after WWII.  

[Laura in CA]

I haven't seen "Foyle's War" or "Das Boot" mentioned in this thread (which I just skimmed; unfortunately I am rushing around these days). I'd be curious to know what Laura Corin and Regentrude (and others from the UK and Germany) think of these, and if they can suggest other resources as well. We found them to be well done, fascinating, and a good way to get perspective from the other side ...

[Laura Corin]

I've been meaning to catch Foyle's War - It started when I lived overseas and I haven't got around to it.

 

I just finished reading Kate Atkinson's Life after Life, which includes visceral (literally) descriptions of the Blitz.  That may be why I was so struck by the online comments, that and talking to my uncle this weekend about his brothers' experience in Canada.  I definitely recommend the book but it's not for the faint hearted and absolutely not for children.  I'd hesitate to give it to Calvin and I don't censor his reading.  It's harsh.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

For children, I recommend Carrie's War, which is about evacuation.  

 

There's another book that is often recommended (and used in schools here) called Good Night Mr Tom.  I would advise against it - there is a child abuse theme, leading to the death of a baby (more details if anyone wants) that is..... not necessary for understanding the era.

 

ETA: Hobbes was re-reading a novel called Blitzcat this morning.  I haven't read it, but he said it was good - so that might be an option.  I just read the reviews on Amazon, and it sounds as if it has some pretty difficult content - but how would it be honest to write about the Blitz without that?  So you might want to pre-read.

 

L

[Kate in Arabia]

Yes this.  But also they see it as a bunch of stories without a connection to each other.  So they don't see the whole fabric of history and so are not going to recognize the geographical extent of WWII or the timeline in certain geographical locations and how that influenced the whole.  And they aren't going to see the connection between certain things that happened before WWII to what happened during WWII to what happened after WWII.  

 

The other issue is simply time.  In planning ds' 10th grade program this year I was looking at world history textbooks for high school.  I was amazed at some of the things that were completely left out.  But then this book was intended for use in a one year course.  All of world history in one school year.  I guess I had all of world history in one year myself.  I consider myself fortunate to have the luxury of using four years, but if you're considering credits that still has to be figured in (using electives?).  Our overall system doesn't seem to allow much time for a broader scope.

 

[Laura Corin]

The other issue is simply time.  In planning ds' 10th grade program this year I was looking at world history textbooks for high school.  I was amazed at some of the things that were completely left out.  But then this book was intended for use in a one year course.  All of world history in one school year.  I guess I had all of world history in one year myself.  I consider myself fortunate to have the luxury of using four years, but if you're considering credits that still has to be figured in (using electives?).  Our overall system doesn't seem to allow much time for a broader scope.

 

 

Time is definitely an issue.  

 

I suppose what I was thinking about was having no feel for what being in a situation might be.  Perhaps teachers should be explicit when talking about one instance of invasion, famine, bombing or whatever, that their students could think about how that applied to other historical or modern events.

 

It's the failure of imagination, rather than the lack of specific detailed knowledge, that I find worrying.

 

I could imagine a course of study where there was a survey of events, during which there was more detailed study of one famine, one instance of genocide, one invasion, one flowering of culture, one founding of democracy....

 

 

 

L

[Melissa in Australia]

For children, I recommend Carrie's War, which is about evacuation.  

 

There's another book that is often recommended (and used in schools here) called Good Night Mr Tom.  I would advise against it - there is a child abuse theme, leading to the death of a baby (more details if anyone wants) that is..... not necessary for understanding the era.

 

ETA: Hobbes was re-reading a novel called Blitzcat this morning.  I haven't read it, but he said it was good - so that might be an option.  I just read the reviews on Amazon, and it sounds as if it has some pretty difficult content - but how would it be honest to write about the Blitz without that?  So you might want to pre-read.

 

L

Goodnight Mr. Tom is one of my favorite books. very moving. I cry every time I read it.

[aug17girl]

Just passing on this interactive map that gives an idea of the scale of the devastation of the London Blitz.  It maps bomb drops with geolocated archival photographs and first person accounts from archives. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2243951/The-astonishing-interactive-map-EVERY-bomb-dropped-London-Blitz.html

[regentrude]

The other issue is simply time.  In planning ds' 10th grade program this year I was looking at world history textbooks for high school.  I was amazed at some of the things that were completely left out.  But then this book was intended for use in a one year course.  All of world history in one school year.  I guess I had all of world history in one year myself.  I consider myself fortunate to have the luxury of using four years, but if you're considering credits that still has to be figured in (using electives?).  Our overall system doesn't seem to allow much time for a broader scope.

 

 

But that, again, reflects priorities. In this country, it is not considered important to have a broad knowledge of history, just as it is not considered important to study foreign languages to fluency. If the majority of people collectively does not think something is important, they won't make time for it in national education standards. The disparity of one year US history vs one year World history being all of high school history education is glaring, but most people do not seem to see a problem with it (nor with the lack of a systematic history instrction in the middle grades).

 

(Now, of course, I am not entirely sure WHAT they consider important at all, since the public education is lacking in pretty much all subjects, but that's a topic for another rant)

[TXMomof4]

If your mother didn't cry during some parts of this movie, did you get why the children were sent to her? Do you remember the Old Home Guard? That is a teary scene.

 

And please don't think I am saying B & B tells the whole terrible story, or is truly historical. I only mention the movie because it was one of my first introductions to 'the other side' (that, and A Thousand Paper Cranes & The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe)). I remember thinking, "They may never see their parents again." My mother was always pretty hormonal ;), so maybe that's why I remember it as I do.

Dd10 read A Thousand Papaer Cranes last year. Yesterday we were talking about atomic bombs and the Trinity Project. She was furious that she'd never known about any of it. I asked if she remembered reading that book and she said "How could I remember the details?!? I was too busy crying!" So we gently went through it again.

[dangermom]

I didn't take AP history, and honestly my history courses didn't cover anything past a sketchy version of WWI.  I didn't know anything about Vietnam except what I got from old Doonesbury comics, but I learned a lot about WWII from general reading--my mom handed me Farewell to Manzanar when I was about 14, and so on.  So I knew a reasonable amount about the war in the UK/Europe, but a few years ago my Russian SIL said that she can never understand why Americans are so focused on the war in Western Europe and the Pacific, but never mention the Eastern front.  From her POV, most of the war was fought in and around Russia.  I realized what she meant when I started reading about Stalingrad and all that.  She was not kidding!