Christopher Perrin on The Eight Essential Principals of Classical Pedagogy

[justamouse]

http://vimeo.com/67438788

 

 

Amazing. Blatantly Christian, so if that's not your thing...

[Renaissance Mom]

I agree ... Amazing. I like to listen to lectures like this one during the summer to recharge my batteries to tackle another year.

[justamouse]

I agree ... Amazing. I like to listen to lectures like this one during the summer to recharge my batteries to tackle another year.

 

I've watched it 2.5 times since last night, and I'm totally zoomed up for another year.

[Missouri Okie]

That was excellent! Thanks for sharing.

[ElizabethB]

Thanks!

[sassenach]

He spoke at the GHC convention last year and completely changed my homeschool.

[profmom]

That was great! Thank you! Where did you find it online?

[1Togo]

Also check out Andrew Kern's "Assessment that Blesses" on the Circe website and read the blog posts about the Odyssey retreat.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

He just did a Webinar on the first principle today, I believe. I had planned to watch but had to miss it. I'm not sure if it's posted yet though. I think he plans to do a webinar on each individual principle.

[SarahW]

My response (/critique)

 

#1 - Yes. A good basis is everything. My biggest critique of the education my son received this past year in public school is that he was expected to write original compositions of multiple sentences- without any strong, explicit insturction in spelling or grammar. According to the grade levels at work here in FL, I should have been able to start him off in 2nd grade. Instead, I am running through 1st grade finding his gaps. The other day in AAS I realized that he thought the main pronunciation of "y" was "ee" and acted like he had never heard of "yih" before. No, in my book you need to have the phonemes down pat before you start writing.

 

#2 - I'm not sure I exactly agree with. If #1 is followed I believe #2 doesn't become such a large issue. To use his example of reading Shakespeare in three weeks - if the student already has a solid basis in history, poetry, and that style of English (I'm not a fan of the KJV, but I see how using it can come in handy) then reading a Shakespeare play will go much quicker.

 

As for the quote from C.S. Lewis - sorry but, so what? Lewis in SBJ makes it pretty clear that his grammar school instruction pretty much sucked. Big time. And that the only thing that he ended up being good at from it was Latin declensions, which is why his father was told that the only career he was good for was to become an Oxford don. Sure, it turned out okay for him, but I wouldn't want my kid to be boxed into such a tight corner.

 

His example of the chemist was on the right track, I think, but he didn't unpack that at all.

 

#3 - Repitition of material in different ways. Yes. The problem I've seen occuring with #2 is over-integration of subjects. It then gets easy to say, "oh subject x is being covered in activity y, so there's no need to do more." Maybe x should be studied on its own as well, and maybe a better understanding of x would enhance how it is learned in y.

 

#4 - His parenthetical remark concerning the low amount of knowledge learned in a didactic lecture is answered in #4. No one thinks that a just a simple lecture is going to pass on nothing by information. A lecture, such as a sermon, is for formation, like he points out. The point of listening to a sermon is not to regurgigate the three main points, but to hear it and say "I see that, I understand that, I should change the way I think about xyz." This is also a noble goal in education, which is why was always the preferred method of instruction for the terminal levels. But on the lower level where you want to teach basic content only, yes, rote repetition and songs and etc. are necessary.

 

But I completely agree about the feelings of physical space. I remember taking a Church History class in a dark classroom in the basement of the college gym. Even though I was highly interested in the content, the setting effected the mood of the content significantly.

 

#6 - I like the overlay of the 3 W's onto the Trivium. I know there have been "beauty" threads before, but I never really felt comfortable with some of the ways I've seen that concept applied. But the three W's are attractive to me. I will ponder that more.

 

#7 - I thought this section was a good answer to his whiteboard versus mall dichotemy that he talked about earlier. If the whiteboard offers more "religious" content than the mall then there is no competition, yes? I mean, aesthetics are important, but in a mall the draw is the content. And the same goes for the whiteboard.

 

#8 - I'm uncomfortable with the idea of pursuing the "Philosophic Life" as the main goal. But I agree that there needs to be time for percolation and unstressed learning. This is why I am uncomfortable with drastic acceleration (in general) and accelerating out of high school via DE or EE or so on (in general). The teenage years are the only time our culture gives to really stop for a bit in the philosophic life, so why chop it short? (I say "in general" because I know every kid is different, and don't want to derail the thread with and bunch of "nuh-uh, not for my kid!" posts).

 

Even though I wrote all this up, I'll probably forget most of the lecture in two weeks times. Nonethless, I'm sure I'll do a better job keeping the formal dining room organized (where we do the schoolwork) and be more cognizent of the concepts of wonder and curiousity.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Thank you Sarah!

[Kelly1730]

I think I really should take the time to listen to this.

[El...]

That was thought-provoking! Thank you!

[Amy Jo]

Thanks for posting. But I didn't catch one of the book names and I can't find it on Amazon. It was the one mentioning (from my notes): "Piety (respect, tradition) > Gymnastic (exercise) > Musicka (inspired by the muses: poetry, history/literature, singing, dancing) > Arts (7 liberal arts) > Philosophy > Theology". Something like "The Liberal Arts Progression" by Robby K.???? I think maybe he said it wasn't published yet? I must read it because the above progression really resonates with me, at least from that brief overview.

[Clear Creek]

Thanks for posting. But I didn't catch one of the book names and I can't find it on Amazon. It was the one mentioning (from my notes): "Piety (respect, tradition) > Gymnastic (exercise) > Musicka (inspired by the muses: poetry, history/literature, singing, dancing) > Arts (7 liberal arts) > Philosophy > Theology". Something like "The Liberal Arts Progression" by Robby K.???? I think maybe he said it wasn't published yet? I must read it because the above progression really resonates with me, at least from that brief overview.

 

 

Was it The Liberal Arts Tradition by Ravi Jain and Kevin Clark? I belive that was the name of the upcoming book.

[Amy Jo]

Yes that was it. Any idea when it will be published? Like my "to read" stack isn't high enough. :glare:

[ScoutTN]

Thanks for posting! I really enjoyed this and will be thinking about it for a good while. Lots to mull over.

 

Anyone already thinking about how you might apply some of these principles in your homeschool?

 

His thoughts confirmed my decision to take our history studies slowly, following rabbit trails and enjoying rather than trying to finish the book in a certain time frame. Like SarahW above, I like the wonder-worship-wisdom paradigm.

I was struck by his observation (in #8) of how American culture in particular is antithetical to this kind of reflection, discusion and slow education. His description of "schola" reminded me of Lewis, Tolkien and the Inklings habit of gathering for long conversations.

 

Nice to see that my library has most of the books he mentioned. :)

[justamouse]

That was great! Thank you! Where did you find it online?

 

 

Looks like it's his blog?

 

Inside Classical Ed

[Chris in PA]

I just watched this and all I can say is WOW! So much to think about. I guess my question to this would be how do you implement these principles with a high school student? I would love to study five subjects and go deep with those but how do you do that when you need x number of high school credits? I also enjoyed the part where he talks about regularly coming back to important things. So much to think about...... I may need to watch this again!

[profmom]

Perhaps we can get back on track. :)

Any other thoughts on the video/lecture? What did you agree with or disagress with?

Practical implications for your homeschool?

I've only listened once so far, but here are some thoughts for application for myself:

 

~ I really do need to take time to consider and plan the days (beyond the master plan I make during the summer).

 

~ I tend to want to check off work (especially math and language arts), and I should focus on being in the moment, not rushing.

 

~ He said that having a teacher that loves the material is a must -- kids are disadvantaged otherwise. I need to dig in and show excitement!

 

~ I know this but don't always like it for myself -- repetition is teaching with the grain in the grammar stage. My little one really does enjoy it!

 

~ Regularly come back to what is important! You remember people, how they made you feel, and what you were made to master.

 

~ Education is cultivation and formation.

 

~ Surroundings should be beautiful. This has me looking around our school room and thinking I shouldn't skip it or leave it to last as I work on decorating this house! (This house that should be decorated by now, after 4 years, but I've been busy, right?? ;D ) We spend so much time here, and I should work here next.

 

~ He said that when you're tired, you teach or discipline the way you were taught...interesting.

 

~ Grammar school is very important for cultivating and protecting curiosity! And, curiosity should be protected for junior high and high school too.

 

~ I really like: Wonder -> Worship -> Wisdom!

 

~ Interesting that history and literature were included with poetry, dance, and singing!

 

~ Loved the student virtues. Working on cultivating those in my now 9th grader. He said beyond teaching content, cultivate these virtues. Hold up before students truth, goodness, and beauty. Education at it's roots is loving what is lovely.

 

~ Takes effort not to rush. Purposely contemplate what is not immediately useful and practical.

 

~ Only the person who does not know how to be at leisure (receiving what is true, good, and beautiful) can be bored.

 

 

Something I struggle with -- balancing the hoops for college entrance with not rushing, not piling on many subjects, having time to contemplate.... Any thoughts?

[Renaissance Mom]

So does anyone have a link to this week's lecture focusing on the first point? Like Sue in PA, I'm puzzling through how to do 6 academic credits plus one elective credit for high school and go deep, dwell in the moment, and wonder/worship our way to wisdom. That sounds tongue-in-cheek, but I seriously am seeking a way to balance rigor via breadth and rigor via depth while cultivating delight.

 

Slightly off topic, but Dr. Perrin is warm, encouraging, and very helpful when you contact him with ANY question or comment. I've briefly chatted with him at a couple of conferences. He'd encouraged me to contact him again with any other questions, which I of course did. He truly endeavors to help. I appreciate that!

 

[justamouse]

So today I picked Pieper's Leisure, the Basis of Culture again (for the bazillionth time?) and I am *really* wishing I had read this first--after I first heard it mentioned. I mean, with all of the other tidbits I've learned I'm understanding with more, but the totally of "Why does a classical education matter? Why should we do this?" is wrapped up in that book.

 

If anyone has read it and can give a synop as to why it's important? I will try a bit later after I let my thoughts settle a bit if no one does, but I'm hoping that someone further along in this would elucidate?

[justamouse]

So does anyone have a link to this week's lecture focusing on the first point? Like Sue in PA, I'm puzzling through how to do 6 academic credits plus one elective credit for high school and go deep, dwell in the moment, and wonder/worship our way to wisdom. That sounds tongue-in-cheek, but I seriously am seeking a way to balance rigor via breadth and rigor via depth while cultivating delight.

 

Slightly off topic, but Dr. Perrin is warm, encouraging, and very helpful when you contact him with ANY question or comment. I've briefly chatted with him at a couple of conferences. He'd encouraged me to contact him again with any other questions, which I of course did. He truly endeavors to help. I appreciate that!

 

 

[justamouse]

(Thankfully) I have no credits to track (in the sense of state requirements) so I'm no one to help with that question. I do think that if I were you, I would check college and classical HS sites and see how they fulfill and count theirs? I mean, that may be a bunk idea, I have no clue.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd0YLZ3hH6I&feature=c4-feed-u

 

Thanks! I was looking yesterday and couldn't find it anywhere yet.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I just wanted to mention that if you open this video through vimeo, then a bar appears at the bottom that helps you control the play of the video. If you miss something or want to hear it again, you can just back up the play button a bit.

 

A lot of times when people are discussing a longer length video, they will mention the minute mark in reference to the portion they are discussing.

[Amy Jo]

Well my copy of "Leisure, the Basis of Culture" should be here tomorrow. I'll have to make sure we do math & Latin early, so I can start a nice weekend of reading. I can't wait for the 2nd point to be discussed, he's really a down-to-earth speaker. And making my book list VERY long.

[Tress]

Well my copy of "Leisure, the Basis of Culture" should be here tomorrow. I'll have to make sure we do math & Latin early, so I can start a nice weekend of reading. I can't wait for the 2nd point to be discussed, he's really a down-to-earth speaker. And making my book list VERY long.

 

I found out that my library owns a Dutch copy of Leisure, which isn't that surprising as Pieper wrote in German :), but it sure is nice not to have to buy all the books that pop up in discussions like this!

 

I agree with you that Dr Perrin is a nice speaker, Circe-level inspirational, but much more down to earth and practical.

[Tress]

So does anyone have a link to this week's lecture focusing on the first point? Like Sue in PA, I'm puzzling through how to do 6 academic credits plus one elective credit for high school and go deep, dwell in the moment, and wonder/worship our way to wisdom. That sounds tongue-in-cheek, but I seriously am seeking a way to balance rigor via breadth and rigor via depth while cultivating delight.

 

Slightly off topic, but Dr. Perrin is warm, encouraging, and very helpful when you contact him with ANY question or comment. I've briefly chatted with him at a couple of conferences. He'd encouraged me to contact him again with any other questions, which I of course did. He truly endeavors to help. I appreciate that!

 

I'm struggling with that too. Multum non multa has always had a big appeal for me, it is what drew me to LCC, but it is very difficult in the Dutch educational system.

 

We have two different schools, K-6 and 7-10/11/12 grade, with tracking starting at 7 grade. My oldest is working a couple of grade levels ahead, so I'm very much thinking about how to do 7-12 grade.

 

Students at the college prep track (~10% of the students) take 14-16 subjects the first three years and then in 10th grade select 11 subjects for the state exams. You can not go to university or any other educational institute without those 11 state exams. Eleven!

 

And different branches of university require different state exams for entrance, so *if* I were to select the 11 subjects out of 14-16 now for my dd, I would be closing doors for her, doors she might be interested in when she is 18. Aaaaaaargh.

 

And those subjects aren't simple check-the-box subjects like health or PE, we're talking about several languages to be taken for 6 years (Greek, Latin, English, French, German), sciences to be taken for 6 years (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) etc. Therefore, dropping those subjects now, and at a later time trying to catch up, is going to be very difficult.

 

Multum non multa, I have simply no idea how to achieve that :(.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Tress

[Tress]

Please tell me I haven't killed this thread! Please?

 

You are all busy reading Pieper, yes? :D

[Kathie in VA]

I think he is looking to change the way education is looked at in general. It will be very hard to try to incorporate this completely while living within the existing framework of our various education systems and expectations of our current employment fields. I too like the idea of multum non multa and especially the Wonder, Worship, Wisdom ideas and will see what I can do to incorporate them. But I don't think we should struggle or stress too hard when we come to the reality of our situation. This is an age where governments are pushing for more consistency in k-12 education ... just consider this 'Common Core'. Colleges are leaning heavier on testing like SATs, ACTs, SAT IIs, National Latin Exam, etc. It seems it is not just the students who want to make things easier, so do the college admissions. But it doesn't really stop there; many employment places look heavy on not only the degree but where the degree came from... they may even have entrance exams themselves to make their assessments easier for them. This is the air we breathe <I hate that line, but it fits>

 

I think many of us are following a lot of the general ideas he talked about. The whole idea of the three stages of learning (grammar, logic, rhetoric) takes most of it. This idea of adding in the 3 W's is probably already being done to some extent by many of us here.... at least in the lower stages.... although some of the rhetoric discussions I've seen and heard about on this board leads me to believe there is all three W's there as well. Many of us work on memory work and mastery of what we teach. I think reading younger versions of great literature in the grammar stage and then a more advanced version in the logic/dialectic stage and then the original version in the rhetoric stage will allow for the time to ponder the idea and really absorb them. It doesn't need to take a year on one piece of work if you have spent time with it before. This is not what he talked about but I don't think it goes against what he talked about.

 

This was a good lecture to hear, thanks for posting it. I've added a few books to my wishlist but some of them were already there... (hmm, still there for a few years now..)

[justamouse]

Please tell me I haven't killed this thread! Please?

 

You are all busy reading Pieper, yes? :D

 

 

Actually, yes, I was. :-) Finally finished it.

 

I really wish I had read it first, meaning, the FIRST book I ever read when I decided to homeschool--not that I would have even had it on my radar? Leisure? School? Huh? It really helps with the WHY are we doing this? It defines your schooling philosophy. All of that abstract CiRCE stuff that frustrates people? THAT'S the book that answers it.

[Tress]

 

 

 

Actually, yes, I was. :-) Finally finished it.

 

I really wish I had read it first, meaning, the FIRST book I ever read when I decided to homeschool--not that I would have even had it on my radar? Leisure? School? Huh? It really helps with the WHY are we doing this? It defines your schooling philosophy. All of that abstract CiRCE stuff that frustrates people? THAT'S the book that answers it.

 

It's THAT good?!? Okay, it has now officially moved to the top of my reading list! Thanks.

[justamouse]

It's THAT good?!? Okay, it has now officially moved to the top of my reading list! Thanks.

 

 

 

Well, it's good, and it's fantastic, but in a hard kinda way? I mean, it's no light book. I think it's going to take me a few more readings to let some of the stuff sink in. There is no skimming sentences. I had to really grapple with each sentence --about how I understood it, about what he was saying, and sometimes the chasm between the two.

[Christopher Perrin]

Just read this thread and am thrilled to hear of so many of you reading Pieper's book (Leisure The Basis of Culture)! 

Pax,

Christopher P.