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cindylee

high school leve work done in 8th grade on transcript??

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Joan: does "First Language" refer to a student's native language, or to a first foreign language (in which case I am missing a requirement for native language)? I know it is difficult in Switzerland with three "native" languages...

 

 

This is something I overlooked too. If we consider the "native" language, then our kids studying 2 additional languages would have it (3 of 8 classes).

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Gotcha... so even among (some) European countries it would be difficult to get their percentages as things are. That surprises me. It doesn't surprise me with the US and our lack of emphasis on languages.

 

 

It does not surprise me, because languages are not the only important subject.

If you allocate 40% of available time to languages, you have to cut somewhere else; I would argue that one should spend at least as much time on math and science. That leaves the remainder of time to be divided up between social sciences, electives, art, music...

 

Also, percentage of time spent is not necessarily a useful measure. A European student who has studied his first foreign language since 3rd and his second foreign language since 6th grade and only takes each language for two hours per week in 10th grade is at a much higher level of proficiency than a student who starts in 9th grade and spends 5 periods per week. I do not see the high school years in isolation; anything accomplished in the upper grades is based on previous accomplishments in the lower grades.

(Whatever our "lesser" requirements were, they got me fluent in two foreign language - I consider this successful.)

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In my state, public schools are required by law to offer at least one high school course to eighth graders. Whatever high school courses are taken in eighth go on the transcript, and the grades are included in the high school gpa. For most students, that is1 foreign language credit; for 25% of students it is FL, Regent's Math (Alg 1 or higher depending on district and student) and Regent's Earth Science or Bio/Living Environment. Not having a high school course in eighth grade would distinguish a student in comparison with the 25% that do.

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Joan what a unique way to set requirements. It would seem to me that a student who wants to concentrate in history or other social sciences would be at a distinct disadvantage. I wonder if a homeschooler would leave off the transcript some of the "extra" work in history as that would then require more work in the other areas in order to meet the percentage requirements. Honestly, I'm so glad we go by years or credits of study here rather than percentages.

 

ETA: I should have translated the whole thing before I replied. : P I see that there can be additional courses in areas 2, 4 and 5. Still not sure that the percentages would always work out to within their specs for a student with a specialized interest.

 

I'm not sure they included math teachers on their advisory panel... When they say that the percentages must be at least those listed, they're not understanding that if one is given significantly more time than the percentages assigned, then that will automatically reduce the percentages for the others.

 

No I think you got it right about the problem of concentrating in history, etc...Because even though you can do that coursework in the other areas, in order to have enough language time/credit (to be determined), I don't think you'd be able to have much time in history, etc...

 

But somewhere it says that students are supposed to have a general education - not highly specialized....So while they are supposed to have a certain level of advanced science in one area, and calculus level of math, the humanities are definitely not given much time/credit....the languages automatically become the specialty - from an American perspective it seems to me at least.

 

Joan: does "First Language" refer to a student's native language, or to a first foreign language (in which case I am missing a requirement for native language)? I know it is difficult in Switzerland with three "native" languages...

 

Native language...

 

Gotcha... so even among (some) European countries it would be difficult to get their percentages as things are. That surprises me. It doesn't surprise me with the US and our lack of emphasis on languages.

 

I'm wondering about this too! wondering if this is a way of keeping out graduates from certain countries....

 

I'm seriously wondering how things will match up with the American high school diploma with state requirements....I might have to find a different state....

 

 

This is something I overlooked too. If we consider the "native" language, then our kids studying 2 additional languages would have it (3 of 8 classes).

 

Yes, it doesn't have to have started beforehand...it's just the last three years...It doesn't give a mandatory level...at least there's some leeway about that...

 

Joan

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My high school had seven classes. Total 28 credits available. I took four English, three German and three French. So 35% were language classes.

I think 6.5 would have been science or math. That's 23%. That was low because I dropped math senior year in favor of French. Bad choice in the end.

 

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My high school had seven classes. Total 28 credits available. I took four English, three German and three French. So 35% were language classes.

I think 6.5 would have been science or math. That's 23%. That was low because I dropped math senior year in favor of French. Bad choice in the end.

 

 

Well it makes me realize that I have to carefully calculate what courses are given credit for officially because if there are too many extra credits of humanities that will change the distribution and she'll be in trouble....

 

Joan

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If the numbers work out such that you have to not count some humanities, maybe she could list them as an "extra-curricular" independent study. Seems silly to have to do something like that, but I would think it's important to remain within those percentage guidelines.

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If the numbers work out such that you have to not count some humanities, maybe she could list them as an "extra-curricular" independent study. Seems silly to have to do something like that, but I would think it's important to remain within those percentage guidelines.

 

Yes, I won't count them for here (but they don't even ask about extra curriculars so those won't be necessary) and will just have a second transcript if she applies somewhere that she needs more of other subjects.....

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At a college night held by our co-op a few years ago, one parent asked the representative from a major university in our state about assigning grades. The parent indicated that she had her children work for mastery and that she didn't assign grades. The college rep said that if parents didn't want to assign grades on the transcipt, that it wouldn't be a problem. The college would "simply assign the student a 3.2 GPA." Where did they come up with that number? Is that a lie? Or is the college simply making the home schooler's academic work fit the system?

 

 

Wow, I never would have thought of this possibility! I was also considering that we would consider the parent-given grades as being given for mastery, and I really hate the idea of giving grades myself, because it seems so subjective. But I guess all grades are subjective. Every teacher is different, grades differently, is on a different scale of tough/easy, etc. I was hoping that I could rely on the outside-sourced classes to be the verification of grades, but maybe I should reconsider my grading strategy now.

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I will have one child who will have a few middle school courses on their transcript. I will put them there to explain their high school course selection/level. I won't be using them for credits or GPA in high school.

 

I have no desire to be dishonest on a transcript or be misleading. I also don't want higher level placement in various subjects in high school to go unexplained. The transcript is a quick and easily understood method of showing this.

 

I do worry about "mommy grades" not being taken seriously and I also don't want a transcript to look as though the courses were named to look like more than they really are (ie I didn't say Algebra II just to look good-it is there because Algebra I was in 8th).

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This is another situation that varies depending on the state. My public school awards credit for geometry and foreign language taken in middle school. These courses are listed on the high school transcript and the grades received in these courses are included in the high school gpa.

 

A friend of mine recently moved to another state (her kids are in public school), and that state has the exact same policy as my state.

 

This was the case back in the day in my high school, but it was made clear that admissions officers would recalculate the GPA minus any courses actually taken prior to high school.

 

Your high school GPA is just that-- grades earned during high school.

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In theory I definitely agree with you.

 

 

Coming from the camp who is not at all interested in having advanced kids push on early, this doesn't "amaze" me. I definitely think kids should be allowed to work at challenging academic and life things, but I don't feel that needs to include a push to be in college (full time) at any particular age. I enjoyed keeping my "advanced" kids home until the more normal time to do college - and they certainly haven't been harmed by it nor do they regret it. They've enjoyed their time. Homeschooling does give one a bit of freedom. ;)

 

 

 

This is where I potentially have a major ethical problem. Many colleges only want to know what was completed in the last 4 (sometimes 3) years before an applicant applies. They want to see challenging work completed recently. If a parent were to just "assign" the courses inaccurately - that's a lie and I have ethical issues with lying. I'd MUCH rather just tell the truth knowing if what I did wasn't ok with a college, my youngster shouldn't be going there. Most colleges are quite flexible with homeschoolers, but I'd really HOPE if they got wind of someone lying that they'd immediately dismiss the applicant from consideration. Who knows what else they'd lie about?

 

Just my two cents. I agree with the first part, go "eh, to each their own, but it's sure not 'me'" with the second, and have a big distaste for part of the recommendation at the end.

 

 

I agree with being flexible without having to push them out of the nest early (unless they happen to really mature early and are ready).

 

But there are other ways to deal with this *without* lying. I list my kids with the state as "ungraded," an option the state actually provides us officially. For my kids, the freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior years of school will simply be the last four years of school that they completed before we decide that they are ready to graduate and move on. Although we will have to make some decisions because of SAT testing/NMSQT, generally speaking, we feel no need, not being in a school system managing hundreds of kids, to declare our kids to be in a particular grade prior to graduation. There is no deception or unethical behavior intended; we just find it to be completely inapplicable to the homeschool milieu.

 

We'll have to go back and re-engineer the last four years prior to graduation the four "high school" years, no matter how old my kids happen to be at the time, because that is what colleges expect to see on application forms and will know how to process. We'll keep records as we go, so nothing wil be invented, made up, or dishonest. It isn't our fault (or really our problem) that we don't happen to live our entire lives around somebody else's fill in the blank forms and checkboxes.

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I agree with being flexible without having to push them out of the nest early (unless they happen to really mature early and are ready).

 

But there are other ways to deal with this *without* lying. I list my kids with the state as "ungraded," an option the state actually provides us officially. For my kids, the freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior years of school will simply be the last four years of school that they completed before we decide that they are ready to graduate and move on. Although we will have to make some decisions because of SAT testing/NMSQT, generally speaking, we feel no need, not being in a school system managing hundreds of kids, to declare our kids to be in a particular grade prior to graduation. There is no deception or unethical behavior intended; we just find it to be completely inapplicable to the homeschool milieu.

 

We'll have to go back and re-engineer the last four years prior to graduation the four "high school" years, no matter how old my kids happen to be at the time, because that is what colleges expect to see on application forms and will know how to process. We'll keep records as we go, so nothing wil be invented, made up, or dishonest. It isn't our fault (or really our problem) that we don't happen to live our entire lives around somebody else's fill in the blank forms and checkboxes.

 

I have no problems with this. My "problems" are solely with someone tossing in a course (or more) that was NOT taken in the past 4 years and making it appear as if it had been. One is honest, the other is not.

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I have no problems with this. My "problems" are solely with someone tossing in a course (or more) that was NOT taken in the past 4 years and making it appear as if it had been. One is honest, the other is not.

 

 

I agree with that. The homeschool world needs to act with the highest ethics so that we do not undermine one another in our efforts to apply for college admissions, scholarships, jobs, and more. Just as we see the negative word-of-mouth from people who "knew a kooky kid with no social skills who was a homeschooler," the last thing we need is a college admissions officer who detects a fraudulent transcript when he interviews a kid who admits a course on the transcript was not actually taken during the high school years, or when there are just "too many" credits listed. Admissions officers aren't stupid.

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In case there is anyone considering studies over here....it's important to look at the uni requirements...Eg here they insist that each of these 6 areas have all be studied in the last three years. (each year) And now they've added a percentage of time...Look how much time is expected for languages and math and science! (Science humaine is geography, history and the like - social sciences)

 

Branches exigées

1) Première langue

2) Deuxième langue

3) Mathématiques

4) Sciences naturelles (biologie, chimie, physique)

5) Sciences sociales et humaines (géographie, histoire, économie/droit)

6) Choix libre (une branche parmi les branches 2, 4 ou 5)

Attention: ces six branches doivent avoir été suivies durant chacune des trois dernières années d’études secondaires supérieures.

Les divers domaines d’études mentionnés ci-dessus doivent représenter au moins les pourcentages suivants de l’enseignement:

30 à 40 % pour les langues,

25 à 35 % pour les mathématiques et les sciences expérimentales,

10 à 20 % pour les sciences humaines.

 

Joan

 

 

Hm - my dd is thinking seriously of studying abroad, and Switzerland is one country she's thinking of (or Germany or Austria). She should by then have APs in two foreign languages, as well as hopefully a successfully completed B2 level Deutsche Sprachdiplom, but she'll probably be finished with all that by 11th grade... I was thinking that was great, as it will free up her senior year for other electives. I'm not even sure how to get her more studies at a higher level. Cc's don't even offer a level that high, and I'm not sure how she'd manage to take a class at a 4-year university on top of her senior year class load...? Does the German-speaking part of Switzerland have these same requirements, or are these by canton?

 

In the 20-40% for language, are they including native tongue?

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Hm - my dd is thinking seriously of studying abroad, and CH is one country she's thinking of (or DE or AU). She should by then have APs in two foreign languages, as well as hopefully a successfully completed B2 level Deutsche Sprachdiplom, but she'll probably be finished with all that by 11th grade... I was thinking that was great, as it will free up her senior year for other electives. I'm not even sure how to get her more studies at a higher level. Cc's don't even offer a level that high, and I'm not sure how she'd manage to take a class at a 4-year university on top of her senior year class load...? Does the German-speaking part of Switzerland have these same requirements, or are these by canton?

 

In the 20-40% for language, are they including native tongue?

 

It's 30-40% and it includes the native language.

 

The two language AP's - one is to be in English (I think since this is the entry requirements for the US and AP English is certainly a higher level than AP German or French...the other should be in the language she wants to study - in German or French. But attention - if not a citizen, she'll have to pass some language exam...Did you look if they'll accept the Deutsche Sprachdiplom?

 

Joan

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Coming late to this, but I documented high school level work done early with exams: Calvin took three GCSE exams (roughly SAT subject test level) before he was fourteen.

 

The exams are dated, so there's no subterfuge involved.

 

L

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It's 30-40% and it includes the native language.

 

The two language AP's - one is to be in English (I think since this is the entry requirements for the US and AP English is certainly a higher level than AP German or French...the other should be in the language she wants to study - in German or French. But attention - if not a citizen, she'll have to pass some language exam...Did you look if they'll accept the Deutsche Sprachdiplom?

 

 

They will accept that level of Sprachdiplom; the German Sat. School is always touting that the kids will be able to attend a German University without further language testing with that exam (since most of the people there are exapts, it's a popular option).

 

She should have 3 language APs if you count English - the other two would be German and Spanish. It's just the last two that she wouldn't be taking her senior year. Maybe I could figure out some kind of independent study the school could give her credit for that wouldn't be too hard - I know they did that for another kid who finished language early...

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Does the German-speaking part of Switzerland have these same requirements, or are these by canton?

 

 

 

Sorry, I missed that question before...

 

They are giving more and more info in English and things keep changing...

 

Just found this for the technology institute in the German speaking part...Looks like she would need C1 with the Sprachdiplom or Goethe...so she'll have German to do as a senior.

 

For Bern, these are the language requirements for bachelor level entry

 

You can see links for the other universites as well on this page...

 

In looking for language requirements for some other schools, I happened upon some other info either new or not seen before saying that basically homeschoolers don't have a recognized certificate because you're supposed to have attended a school...But this doesn't quite make sense as homeschoolers with the CNED and then taking the French Bacc have been accepted....so maybe the AP's will count as enough of an exam? I'm going to check...

 

Joan

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30 à 40 % pour les langues,

25 à 35 % pour les mathématiques et les sciences expérimentales,

10 à 20 % pour les sciences humaines.

 

Well, I'm so glad that this thread was started because otherwise I probably wouldn't have been looking up these requirement, presuming that they were the same as before.

 

Now I've calculated that it's detrimental to get in extra language credits on the diploma...even for German III work done this year and esp French done in 8th grade...It's funny - better to have less credits than more.

 

Joan

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In SC, the law allows High School credit to be earned, and counted, as early as 7th grade. The state Virtual School (which is a single class type program, not a degree granting school) allows as early as 7th grade. The private schools we have looked at use middle school PE as the HS PE requirement - because the law allows it. Foreign language and math start in middle school as well, if the student is capable of the work.

 

Our county's public school currently offers Alg 1 and Eng 1 to "advanced 8th graders" as part of their gifted program. To enhance their gifted program, they are looking at adding additional HS courses in 8th grade, which is seen as giving an academic advantage to the students. These courses are definitely counted on the transcript.

 

When we get there, maybe we will have to have two different transcripts??? One including the 8th grade work for in-state colleges, to show he fits into the "advanced" category, and one written for everyone else?

 

Danielle

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This is another situation that varies depending on the state. My public school awards credit for geometry and foreign language taken in middle school. These courses are listed on the high school transcript and the grades received in these courses are included in the high school gpa.

.

 

Yep. That's how our local public schools do it, too.

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When we get there, maybe we will have to have two different transcripts??? One including the 8th grade work for in-state colleges, to show he fits into the "advanced" category, and one written for everyone else?

 

Danielle

 

I don't think you'd need two. Adcoms are pretty good at interpreting transcripts. I'm sure they see quite a variety year in and year out. I'd put any high school level classes completed before high school on there with a note telling when they were completed (the note would only need to say "high school level work completed prior to 9th grade". Those schools wanting to ignore them can and those wanting to see them on there will see them.

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So, since it varies from state to state and even within states, how do we as homeschoolers count it then towards the overall requirements for "graduation" or for college admissions? Like, if you took a math course that was supposed to be HS level, like Alg I or Geometry in 7th or 8th grade, and you list it on the transcript as being in 7th or 8th, do you count that towards the 4 years of math? Or do you only count four years of math actually completed in 9-12? I never thought of it this way, because we don't really count what grade they are in. And how should we know if we should count it in the GPA or not count it?

 

Do you think admissions counselors really take the time to recalculate the GPA? Even if they did, the one you put on there originally is the one they are going to see at the first "sort" of applicants.

 

What are the "gifted" or advanced students taking for math in 8th grade in your area? Here they take Alg I in 7th and Geometry in 8th, but I was told by the guidance counselor that they are not allowing that now. They want the gifted math for 8th to be Alg I.

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So, since it varies from state to state and even within states, how do we as homeschoolers count it then towards the overall requirements for "graduation" or for college admissions? Like, if you took a math course that was supposed to be HS level, like Alg I or Geometry in 7th or 8th grade, and you list it on the transcript as being in 7th or 8th, do you count that towards the 4 years of math? Or do you only count four years of math actually completed in 9-12? I never thought of it this way, because we don't really count what grade they are in. And how should we know if we should count it in the GPA or not count it?

 

Students should have take math during the four years before beginning college in order to be competitive for admissions and/or scholarship money. If they finish Geometry in eighth grade, they'll still have to have four years of math. At some point you'll need to assign grade levels to your kids for transcript purposes.

 

What are the "gifted" or advanced students taking for math in 8th grade in your area? Here they take Alg I in 7th and Geometry in 8th, but I was told by the guidance counselor that they are not allowing that now. They want the gifted math for 8th to be Alg I.

 

It depends on the school in this area. Most advanced kids do take Algebra 1 in 8th grade. I know of one school in a neighboring district where the top students take Geometry (switched from an Alg 1-Alg 2 7th-8th grade progression). Those are the kids my dd would compete with for seats in the nationally-ranked science/math charter high school.

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So, since it varies from state to state and even within states, how do we as homeschoolers count it then towards the overall requirements for "graduation" or for college admissions? Like, if you took a math course that was supposed to be HS level, like Alg I or Geometry in 7th or 8th grade, and you list it on the transcript as being in 7th or 8th, do you count that towards the 4 years of math? Or do you only count four years of math actually completed in 9-12? I never thought of it this way, because we don't really count what grade they are in. And how should we know if we should count it in the GPA or not count it?

 

Since the majority of colleges only want to see credit for courses completed in the last four years, I'd do it that way. A few colleges only want the last three years, but they can figure it out IMO. I opted not to count the courses in the GPA, but honestly, for homeschoolers, few adcoms look at the GPA. They'll look double at any test scores or outside courses completed and those grades.

What are the "gifted" or advanced students taking for math in 8th grade in your area? Here they take Alg I in 7th and Geometry in 8th, but I was told by the guidance counselor that they are not allowing that now. They want the gifted math for 8th to be Alg I.

 

Advanced math kids start Alg 1 in 7th (pending year, 60 - 90 kids out of a class of 300+). Average math kids (150 - 180) start Alg 1 in 8th. Lower level math kids start Alg 1 in 9th or later (60 - 90). The latter are not likely to go on to a 4 year school of any sort (a few go to cc, many of those who graduate go to technical schools). Kids from the first two often head to 4 year schools or cc.

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Advanced math kids start Alg 1 in 7th (pending year, 60 - 90 kids out of a class of 300+). Average math kids (150 - 180) start Alg 1 in 8th. Lower level math kids start Alg 1 in 9th or later (60 - 90). The latter are not likely to go on to a 4 year school of any sort (a few go to cc, many of those who graduate go to technical schools). Kids from the first two often head to 4 year schools or cc.

 

 

This is the case in my area too. It's really only the remedial kids who are taking Alg 1 in ninth.

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I've never heard of credit being given. You could rename your 8th grader as a high schooler; otherwise, they are not a high schooler.

...

This is what makes sense to me! If they are ready for "9th grade work" then simply have them skip 8th and start high school. On the other hand, if you don't want them to finish high school a year earlier, list the more advanced maths and sciences in 9th grade. The fact that they have taken Algebra I (etc.) will then be obvious.

Or simply do it as Creekland said above! That makes perfect sense.

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This is the case in my area too. It's really only the remedial kids who are taking Alg 1 in ninth.

 

Ok, now I just have to speak up about this!

If you have a child who isn't ready for algebra until 9th grade or even a little later, please don't panic. In our homeschool we were relaxed about this; none of our sons took Algebra before the 9th grade.

Our middle son was an especially "late bloomer"--and yet he is now making As in his 3rd year of an Economics major (even in the statistics and calculus courses). We found that just because the student isn't ready for algebra in middle school, doesn't mean they are not going to be able to do well in college math.

Many are recognizing that the older tradition of waiting until their mind has developed a little longer before taking algebra is actually good for the student! And for all involved!

You *might* cripple their chances to be an engineering major at the top 10 schools, but most kids don't need to go there. It is just becoming more and more obvious to those of us who are older (including my math teacher friends), that advanced math is being pushed down too early. Not that there aren't some who are ready for this! But there are so many kids who would do fine with math, if only their minds were allowed to develop a little longer.

Just my 2c! ;)

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It looks like in my county high school courses taken in middle school are included on the public school transcript as long as the courses fulfil a high school graduation requirement.

 

So algebra and higher in math or world languages on the high school level are included. They are counted in credit totals and used for gpa calculations. I would think this is common throughout Virginia.

My oldest will have 2 credits before 9th grade. My middle may have 5-6. However I'm planning on having them go farther and deeper, not necessarily graduate early.

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Ok, now I just have to speak up about this!

If you have a child who isn't ready for algebra until 9th grade or even a little later, please don't panic. In our homeschool we were relaxed about this; none of our sons took Algebra before the 9th grade.

Our middle son was an especially "late bloomer"--and yet he is now making As in his 3rd year of an Economics major (even in the statistics and calculus courses). We found that just because the student isn't ready for algebra in middle school, doesn't mean they are not going to be able to do well in college math.

Many are recognizing that the older tradition of waiting until their mind has developed a little longer before taking algebra is actually good for the student! And for all involved!

You *might* cripple their chances to be an engineering major at the top 10 schools, but most kids don't need to go there. It is just becoming more and more obvious to those of us who are older (including my math teacher friends), that advanced math is being pushed down too early. Not that there aren't some who are ready for this! But there are so many kids who would do fine with math, if only their minds were allowed to develop a little longer.

Just my 2c! ;)

 

I was just responding to the PP who asked when local pubic schools offer Algebra 1. Of course, as homeschoolers we can do what's best for our own kids, but people who are thinking about sending their dc to public school for high school need to be aware that in some areas, anyway, they are going to be in remedial classes if they haven't had algebra early. If you want your child to go into honors classes at the public high school, you need to be on the schedule the honors kids in your district are on.

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If you put courses taken before 9th on the transcript, do you necessarily include grades? I understand listing courses to allow admissions officers to see at a glance that the student has covered Alg 1. But what if it's listed with no grade? My younger student took Alg 1 & 2 this past year, but we didn't grade any of it. We just worked as long as he needed. I wasn't planning on grading anything until high school, but does that look odd? I wouldn't plan on including any pre-high school grades in his GPA, either way.

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If you are concerned about course placement on a transcript, most likely it is because your child plans to apply for a scholarship or attend college. My advice is to call a couple colleges that interest your child (or you) and ask them how they view high school courses (with credit) prior to grade 9. Scholarships typically have their own instructions, so it would be best to refer to those individually for the rules.

 

Generally speaking, many colleges do not like many courses listed below ninth grade. Ones that they do tend to accept are high school level Mathematics including and above Algebra I. Pre-Algebra does not interest them. They also typically accept high school level Sciences, such as Earth/Space Science and Physical Science. Biology and other heavier lab Sciences are expected to be completed above grade 8. Of course, this is generally speaking based on my experience. I have also found that academic scholarships tend to be the same.

 

Of course this is just generally speaking as there are exceptions. The only way to know for certain is to call the college, but keep in mind that a policy in place now may not be in a few years. My advice is to only place Algebra I or higher and the above mentioned Sciences below ninth on the transcript. With everything else, try to squeeze in between grade 9 and 12. Some courses can be listed as taken in the summer term.

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I was just responding to the PP who asked when local pubic schools offer Algebra 1. Of course, as homeschoolers we can do what's best for our own kids, but people who are thinking about sending their dc to public school for high school need to be aware that in some areas, anyway, they are going to be in remedial classes if they haven't had algebra early. If you want your child to go into honors classes at the public high school, you need to be on the schedule the honors kids in your disctrict are on.

 

 

Ok, now I see what you meant! Thanks for the clarification. :0)

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If you are concerned about course placement on a transcript, most likely it is because your child plans to apply for a scholarship or attend college. My advice is to call a couple colleges that interest your child (or you) and ask them how they view high school courses (with credit) prior to grade 9. Scholarships typically have their own instructions, so it would be best to refer to those individually for the rules.

 

Generally speaking, many colleges do not like many courses listed below ninth grade. Ones that they do tend to accept are high school level Mathematics including and above Algebra I. Pre-Algebra does not interest them. They also typically accept high school level Sciences, such as Earth/Space Science and Physical Science. Biology and other heavier lab Sciences are expected to be completed above grade 8. Of course, this is generally speaking based on my experience. I have also found that academic scholarships tend to be the same.

 

Of course this is just generally speaking as there are exceptions. The only way to know for certain is to call the college, but keep in mind that a policy in place now may not be in a few years. My advice is to only place Algebra I or higher and the above mentioned Sciences below ninth on the transcript. With everything else, try to squeeze in between grade 9 and 12. Some courses can be listed as taken in the summer term.

 

 

I think the bolded above depends on what else is on the transcript. A student who took algebra in 7th grade, took a total of 4 math credits, had his last math course in 10th grade, didn't go beyond pre-calculus and is applying for an engineering program is going to raise a few eyebrows. On the other hand, a student who started algebra in 7th, took a total of 6 math credits (2 before high school and 4 during high school) and was taking AP calculus or calculus at the community college will be looked at in a different light. In my mind, it's the difference between using high school level courses in middle school to move into broader, deeper and harder work during high school or using coursework completed in middle school in order to take a light load during high school. And it could be to take a deep load in a different specialty, for example completing math requirements in order to add a 2nd or 3rd foreign language. (Of course, then I'd expect the student not to be applying to the engineering or science department.)

 

I'm not trying to pad the transcripts of my kids. I'm aware that they could start looking too good to be true. But I also don't see that I should penalize my middle son just because he's working on high school level courses. As it is, I probably won't give him high school credit for subjects like history and English, even though his brother will get credit for the exact same work.

 

I also have the option of stripping the credit out in a couple years when middle son does apply to college. Or knowing that the admissions departments may ignore those credits when figuring his gpa. But I'm pretty content to include them when the local district does the same, since it is a high performing, highly competitive district.

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I'm so confused now. I thought part of the beauty of homeschool is to be able to spread things out and still come out ahead in the end. If dc did several years of a foreign language from middle to high school, can't you condense it down into 3-4 credits? I'm not talking about stretching the truth or lying, the work was done.

 

I was just listening to the SWB lecture on how to prepare for high school and she talks about even taking a 5th year if necessary and condensing it down to 4. Then writing a note about taking a gap year. Her letter and transcript for her oldest is on WTM.com Site Resources section. I'm on my phone, but I'm fairly sure that's what I remember.

 

Have requirements changed that much since she wrote that? If so, how will I know if what I am planning for our next 5 years won't be outdated?

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Ok, now I just have to speak up about this!

If you have a child who isn't ready for algebra until 9th grade or even a little later, please don't panic. In our homeschool we were relaxed about this; none of our sons took Algebra before the 9th grade.

 

Homeschooling is wonderful for being able to work at the pace of the student. It's ideal.

 

In our school though, they teach for the masses and unfortunately, if you can't keep up with those masses, you end up in remedial classes where things aren't covered as well and they're just trying to get you through because the state says so. Technically, the class is the same in 9th as it is in 7th, but the students one is placed with vary considerably. It really is sad IMHO.

 

Occasionally we do get a "late bloomer" student who takes math late, doubles up, and goes on to do well in college, but personality-wise it takes an exceptionally mature student to be able to do that given their circumstances. When they do, they often go on and do well (the work ethic is there).

 

When one homeschools, the environment is not detrimental to their learning, so it can work very well comparatively.

 

I was just responding to the PP who asked when local pubic schools offer Algebra 1. Of course, as homeschoolers we can do what's best for our own kids, but people who are thinking about sending their dc to public school for high school need to be aware that in some areas, anyway, they are going to be in remedial classes if they haven't had algebra early. If you want your child to go into honors classes at the public high school, you need to be on the schedule the honors kids in your district are on.

 

:iagree:

 

If you put courses taken before 9th on the transcript, do you necessarily include grades?

 

I did not. They were not part of the GPA, so I saw no need. The 4 years of high school stood for themselves grading-wise.

 

I think the bolded above depends on what else is on the transcript. A student who took algebra in 7th grade, took a total of 4 math credits, had his last math course in 10th grade, didn't go beyond pre-calculus and is applying for an engineering program is going to raise a few eyebrows. On the other hand, a student who started algebra in 7th, took a total of 6 math credits (2 before high school and 4 during high school) and was taking AP calculus or calculus at the community college will be looked at in a different light. In my mind, it's the difference between using high school level courses in middle school to move into broader, deeper and harder work during high school or using coursework completed in middle school in order to take a light load during high school. And it could be to take a deep load in a different specialty, for example completing math requirements in order to add a 2nd or 3rd foreign language. (Of course, then I'd expect the student not to be applying to the engineering or science department.)

 

I believe this is exactly what they are looking for... which is why just throwing all of the courses on as taken in 9th or higher is dishonest.

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I think the bolded above depends on what else is on the transcript. A student who took algebra in 7th grade, took a total of 4 math credits, had his last math course in 10th grade, didn't go beyond pre-calculus and is applying for an engineering program is going to raise a few eyebrows. On the other hand, a student who started algebra in 7th, took a total of 6 math credits (2 before high school and 4 during high school) and was taking AP calculus or calculus at the community college will be looked at in a different light. In my mind, it's the difference between using high school level courses in middle school to move into broader, deeper and harder work during high school or using coursework completed in middle school in order to take a light load during high school. And it could be to take a deep load in a different specialty, for example completing math requirements in order to add a 2nd or 3rd foreign language. (Of course, then I'd expect the student not to be applying to the engineering or science department.)

 

I'm not trying to pad the transcripts of my kids. I'm aware that they could start looking too good to be true. But I also don't see that I should penalize my middle son just because he's working on high school level courses. As it is, I probably won't give him high school credit for subjects like history and English, even though his brother will get credit for the exact same work.

 

I also have the option of stripping the credit out in a couple years when middle son does apply to college. Or knowing that the admissions departments may ignore those credits when figuring his gpa. But I'm pretty content to include them when the local district does the same, since it is a high performing, highly competitive district.

 

In regards to the bolded, this is true; however, he/she needs to have the SAT/ACT scores to back up that transcript. Colleges like what is normal or traditional. Too many credits in high school (or middle school) doesn't necessarily impress them as many may think. When they review a transcript that is beyond the norm, they will determine if it seems "too good to be true". The student will need to have the test scores that back up the claim. If not, a parent who thinks their child's transcript is impressive may find out otherwise.

 

Scholarships, however, can be tricky. Their rules are often clear-cut. If they only accept Algebra I or higher in eighth grade along with one or two Sciences (typically not the heavy lab ones), this is all they will count. It's important to understand the rules if pursuing a scholarship prior to submitting a transcript. Of course this pertains to academic scholarships mainly.

 

As mentioned in my previous post, it never hurts to call or visit a college or two of interest. Discuss with them the pre-high school courses and credits. Students who do excel so early often have more than enough credits at graduation anyway, so a college may not be too worried about it. Wow them with the test scores, and the student's transcript may not be an issue - even if heavy.

 

By the way, I understand that parents don't want to pad the transcript. They simply want recognition. I don't blame them. Sometimes what a college accepts or doesn't depends on the mood of the administrator on a particular day.

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I'm surprised it's controversial that one should give high school credit to an 8th grader for doing high school work. As many mentioned, it certainly is not controversial in brick and mortar schools. And colleges don't find it suspicious when college credit is given to high schoolers. While some colleges might not choose to accept those credits, many other schools do. In fact there's a huge push in many states to essentially have college classes actually taught in high school for college credit. If it's college work done in high school and college credit is given, the same should apply to high school work completed in middle school.

 

My dd will have 3 high school Latin credits from Lukeion before she gets to high school. She will have 3 very high A's, which will be significant for validation of the rest of her mommy grades. She will also be taking geometry with outside validation as a middle schooler. I do worry about her reaching her math ceiling before she graduates and how we'll get the 4 requisite math credits in for college.

 

As for Algebra as an 8th grade class, here in Ohio it is still a typical 9th grade class. At my ds' private high school, 9th grade Algebra and physical science is the norm, though this trend is changing. He had a handful of freshman in his geom. class. Yet, many kids from his school go on to Ivies, the academies, NMSFs etc. It might be b/c it is the school norm and adcoms recognize that. With physical science as the course for all freshman, the STEM kids do double up for AP classes in later years, but the same doesn't happen in math.

 

Laura

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I'm surprised it's controversial that one should give high school credit to an 8th grader for doing high school work. As many mentioned, it certainly is not controversial in brick and mortar schools. And colleges don't find it suspicious when college credit is given to high schoolers. While some colleges might not choose to accept those credits, many other schools do. In fact there's a huge push in many states to essentially have college classes actually taught in high school for college credit. If it's college work done in high school and college credit is given, the same should apply to high school work completed in middle school.

 

Laura

 

It is different in different high schools - sometimes even in the same state. The high school where I work (and my youngest attends) will not give ANY high school credit for courses taken before 9th grade even when they do give credit for the same course to a high school student. They started this policy in the 14 years I've been there, but I don't remember exactly which year. When I asked about it, I was told they did it because that's what the colleges wanted to see (credits only for courses taken while in high school).

 

Our school also offers college courses taught in our high school. They do NOT give college credit for those. They give high school credit. The colleges involved (one cc, one 4 year) offer the college credit and their own transcript gets sent when the student goes to a college (if the college allows those credits).

 

Other schools can do things differently. ;)

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I just looked at my guy's transcript (it's online for our school). They do not even list courses taken prior to 9th (even without credit). For him it would just be Alg 1, but the adcoms will just have to know he took it before Geometry and Alg 2...

 

His college course is listed by name and course number, but the credit given is just high school credit. It does not show up as college credit anywhere on his high school transcript.

 

It's arranged by year. They give course names, final grade, credit hours (total + for each class), overall GPA (only weighted), attendance and grading scale.

 

They have room for "test record" and "activities, honors, and awards," but none are listed and my guy has test records from the state and SAT/ACT + he's been on the distinguished honor roll and in NHS. I'm guessing they add those in senior year. Time will tell. He's my only guy to go through ps for high school.

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In regards to the bolded, this is true; however, he/she needs to have the SAT/ACT scores to back up that transcript. Colleges like what is normal or traditional. Too many credits in high school (or middle school) doesn't necessarily impress them as many may think. When they review a transcript that is beyond the norm, they will determine if it seems "too good to be true". The student will need to have the test scores that back up the claim. If not, a parent who thinks their child's transcript is impressive may find out otherwise.

 

Scholarships, however, can be tricky. Their rules are often clear-cut. If they only accept Algebra I or higher in eighth grade along with one or two Sciences (typically not the heavy lab ones), this is all they will count. It's important to understand the rules if pursuing a scholarship prior to submitting a transcript. Of course this pertains to academic scholarships mainly.

 

As mentioned in my previous post, it never hurts to call or visit a college or two of interest. Discuss with them the pre-high school courses and credits. Students who do excel so early often have more than enough credits at graduation anyway, so a college may not be too worried about it. Wow them with the test scores, and the student's transcript may not be an issue - even if heavy.

 

By the way, I understand that parents don't want to pad the transcript. They simply want recognition. I don't blame them. Sometimes what a college accepts or doesn't depends on the mood of the administrator on a particular day.

You have some good points about all of the input to the application needing to form a coherent whole. Grades, courses and test scores should support each other. If a student has a mismatch it probably needs to me addressed somehow like in the counselor letter.

But I don't think this applies only to homeschoolers. There are kids with A's and B's in AP classes and 1's and 2's on the AP exam. Or valedictorians who get low C's in classes they took in high school with an A.

 

I'm less appalled by the idea of having my homeschooler take SAT subject tests than I used to be. For us it will give them another area in which to shine. And I think that there will be enough good scores to support what I put on the transcript. This is also why we do NLE and AMC tests.

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In regards to the bolded, this is true; however, he/she needs to have the SAT/ACT scores to back up that transcript. Colleges like what is normal or traditional. Too many credits in high school (or middle school) doesn't necessarily impress them as many may think. When they review a transcript that is beyond the norm, they will determine if it seems "too good to be true". The student will need to have the test scores that back up the claim. If not, a parent who thinks their child's transcript is impressive may find out otherwise.

 

Scholarships, however, can be tricky. Their rules are often clear-cut. If they only accept Algebra I or higher in eighth grade along with one or two Sciences (typically not the heavy lab ones), this is all they will count. It's important to understand the rules if pursuing a scholarship prior to submitting a transcript. Of course this pertains to academic scholarships mainly.

 

As mentioned in my previous post, it never hurts to call or visit a college or two of interest. Discuss with them the pre-high school courses and credits. Students who do excel so early often have more than enough credits at graduation anyway, so a college may not be too worried about it. Wow them with the test scores, and the student's transcript may not be an issue - even if heavy.

 

By the way, I understand that parents don't want to pad the transcript. They simply want recognition. I don't blame them. Sometimes what a college accepts or doesn't depends on the mood of the administrator on a particular day.

You have some good points about all of the input to the application needing to form a coherent whole. Grades, courses and test scores should support each other. If a student has a mismatch it probably needs to me addressed somehow like in the counselor letter.

But I don't think this applies only to homeschoolers. There are kids with A's and B's in AP classes and 1's and 2's on the AP exam. Or valedictorians who get low C's in classes they took in high school with an A.

 

I'm less appalled by the idea of having my homeschooler take SAT subject tests than I used to be. For us it will give them another area in which to shine. And I think that there will be enough good scores to support what I put on the transcript. This is also why we do NLE and AMC tests.

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In regards to the bolded, this is true; however, he/she needs to have the SAT/ACT scores to back up that transcript. Colleges like what is normal or traditional. Too many credits in high school (or middle school) doesn't necessarily impress them as many may think. When they review a transcript that is beyond the norm, they will determine if it seems "too good to be true". The student will need to have the test scores that back up the claim. If not, a parent who thinks their child's transcript is impressive may find out otherwise.

 

Scholarships, however, can be tricky. Their rules are often clear-cut. If they only accept Algebra I or higher in eighth grade along with one or two Sciences (typically not the heavy lab ones), this is all they will count. It's important to understand the rules if pursuing a scholarship prior to submitting a transcript. Of course this pertains to academic scholarships mainly.

 

As mentioned in my previous post, it never hurts to call or visit a college or two of interest. Discuss with them the pre-high school courses and credits. Students who do excel so early often have more than enough credits at graduation anyway, so a college may not be too worried about it. Wow them with the test scores, and the student's transcript may not be an issue - even if heavy.

 

By the way, I understand that parents don't want to pad the transcript. They simply want recognition. I don't blame them. Sometimes what a college accepts or doesn't depends on the mood of the administrator on a particular day.

You have some good points about all of the input to the application needing to form a coherent whole. Grades, courses and test scores should support each other. If a student has a mismatch it probably needs to me addressed somehow like in the counselor letter.

But I don't think this applies only to homeschoolers. There are kids with A's and B's in AP classes and 1's and 2's on the AP exam. Or valedictorians who get low C's in classes they took in high school with an A.

 

I'm less appalled by the idea of having my homeschooler take SAT subject tests than I used to be. For us it will give them another area in which to shine. And I think that there will be enough good scores to support what I put on the transcript. This is also why we do NLE and AMC tests.

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In regards to the bolded,

On the other hand, a student who started algebra in 7th, took a total of 6 math credits (2 before high school and 4 during high school) and was taking AP calculus or calculus at the community college will be looked at in a different light.

this is true; however, he/she needs to have the SAT/ACT scores to back up that transcript. Colleges like what is normal or traditional. Too many credits in high school (or middle school) doesn't necessarily impress them as many may think. When they review a transcript that is beyond the norm, they will determine if it seems "too good to be true". The student will need to have the test scores that back up the claim. If not, a parent who thinks their child's transcript is impressive may find out otherwise.

 

Scholarships, however, can be tricky. Their rules are often clear-cut. If they only accept Algebra I or higher in eighth grade along with one or two Sciences (typically not the heavy lab ones), this is all they will count. It's important to understand the rules if pursuing a scholarship prior to submitting a transcript. Of course this pertains to academic scholarships mainly.

 

As mentioned in my previous post, it never hurts to call or visit a college or two of interest. Discuss with them the pre-high school courses and credits. Students who do excel so early often have more than enough credits at graduation anyway, so a college may not be too worried about it. Wow them with the test scores, and the student's transcript may not be an issue - even if heavy.

 

By the way, I understand that parents don't want to pad the transcript. They simply want recognition. I don't blame them. Sometimes what a college accepts or doesn't depends on the mood of the administrator on a particular day.

 

 

I would think that if students have multiple high school credits prior to high school and then continue taking math at either a CC or university that the grades from the college level courses would be more important than test scores. Considering that the highest level of math tested via any of the standardized tests other than AP is pre-cal, I'm not sure how those tests are supposed to offer any sort of validation for math beyond that level which is standard sequence, not accelerated. (which I guess would be the "too good to be true" question you are suggesting?? That having 6 math credits might be questioned as unbelievable)

 

Your second and third paragraphs confuse me. If students are taking courses every yr (which is what the majority of the people in this thread have been discussing.......not eliminating classes during high school but progressing beyond typical high school level work), their courses would not only meet the "or higher" requirement, but they would also be meeting/exceeding credits for graduation. Or were you thinking in terms of someone taking credits in middle school and then stopping and not taking any more like taking alg 2 in 8th grade and that being their last math?? If so, I agree that is a different situation and one that would cause lots of questions.

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I would think that if students have multiple high school credits prior to high school and then continue taking math at either a CC or university that the grades from the college level courses would be more important than test scores. Considering that the highest level of math tested via any of the standardized tests other than AP is pre-cal, I'm not sure how those tests are supposed to offer any sort of validation for math beyond that level which is standard sequence, not accelerated.

 

Test scores actually are a better indicator many times - or should match the college grades. We have students who do Calc (college course) and get As, then test into remedial math when they get to 4 year schools. It sounds incredible - I used to think it would be an anomaly - but it isn't. Calc courses at some places are pretty "basic" and with homework, easy tests, (and perhaps some cheating in some cases), it can be rather easy to get a decent grade. Then switch to a high level school where they really "do" the math. Kids who didn't do much in their "A" class are lost - even on the more involved algebra, not to mention Calc or higher. One must have math knowledge. Test scores (ACT/SAT/AP) show how the student does in comparison with others better than a local college or U grade (unless the 4 year school knows the content of that course). This is why they are depended upon more most of the time. I always recommend students take a placement test at their destination U if possible - just to be sure.

 

If students are taking courses every yr (which is what the majority of the people in this thread have been discussing.......not eliminating classes during high school but progressing beyond typical high school level work), their courses would not only meet the "or higher" requirement, but they would also be meeting/exceeding credits for graduation.

 

Yes

 

Or were you thinking in terms of someone taking credits in middle school and then stopping and not taking any more like taking alg 2 in 8th grade and that being their last math?? If so, I agree that is a different situation and one that would cause lots of questions.

 

Some like to use Alg 1 in 8th, do Geometry and Alg 2 in high school, then stop thinking they have three math credits. Colleges only see two and they see someone wimping out on math. This may be ok in some situations, but it won't be in most.

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Test scores actually are a better indicator many times - or should match the college grades. We have students who do Calc (college course) and get As, then test into remedial math when they get to 4 year schools. It sounds incredible - I used to think it would be an anomaly - but it isn't. Calc courses at some places are pretty "basic" and with homework, easy tests, (and perhaps some cheating in some cases), it can be rather easy to get a decent grade. Then switch to a high level school where they really "do" the math. Kids who didn't do much in their "A" class are lost - even on the more involved algebra, not to mention Calc or higher. One must have math knowledge. Test scores (ACT/SAT/AP) show how the student does in comparison with others better than a local college or U grade (unless the 4 year school knows the content of that course). This is why they are depended upon more most of the time. I always recommend students take a placement test at their destination U if possible - just to be sure.

 

I will preface my comment by saying that my kids have never taken math at a CC, so I am unaware of how accurate the Compass test is for placement, but I thought it was supposed to be equivalent to the ACT?? If that is the case, I would guess the ACT score would reflect level??

 

I guess I should have been clearer in my OP. The argument made by the original post I quoted and this one make me wonder how other students are placing into the higher level math courses to begin with??? My kids have had to jump through MORE hoops to enroll in upper level courses as high school students than if they had entered the university as freshman. They have had to have higher test scores, better track record, etc. With my kids, it hasn't been as if they could walk into a local university and simply register for a calculus up course. They had to prove their AP score and have a minimum ACT/SAT score to begin with. (at a couple of schools the SAT score had to be 300+ pts higher than entering freshman just to even be considered for dual enrollment not even discussing math criteria for course enrollment.) The local universities have all had placement into course requirements. So, the comment that the post I quoted stating that universities want to see traditional high school work or too many credits are too good to be true made me wonder WHY?

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We have placement tests for math too, but there can be students who barely pass the placement test and still get in.

 

Then it's the course that differs. They may use similar books and have the same title, but getting an A in a good calc class is not the same as getting an A in a not-so-good one when it comes to math knowledge. Once again, college A is not equal to college B. Once the A comes in the first college class, it's auto admit into a higher one, but then switch schools and the knowledge brought in can be vastly different.

 

Many times, higher level schools have their own math placement test for this reason.

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We have placement tests for math too, but there can be students who barely pass the placement test and still get in.

 

Then it's the course that differs. They may use similar books and have the same title, but getting an A in a good calc class is not the same as getting an A in a not-so-good one when it comes to math knowledge. Once again, college A is not equal to college B. Once the A comes in the first college class, it's auto admit into a higher one, but then switch schools and the knowledge brought in can be vastly different.

 

Many times, higher level schools have their own math placement test for this reason.

 

 

So, if I am an admission officer looking at high school transcripts and I have an application with a couple of possible scenarios........

 

a solid math score on the ACT/SAT ( I cannot imagine even "barely passing" for placement into cal 1 being less than something like minimum of a 28 or 29 on the math section) and placement into cal and multiple college level maths with As

 

Or a 5 on the AP BC exam, solid college prep level test scores (not 800/36 scores, but low 700s low 30s..... Again, bc students aren't going to be able to register for higher level math courses without something over a 28 or 29 math score to begin with) and As in upper level math.....

 

I am going to treat the application as too good to be true and view an only through pre-cal application as more trustworthy bc it is more traditional??

 

This thread isn't about whether or not the credits fully transfer or are used by the university for course placement. It is about transcripts for college applications. Whether or not credit is granted is a completely different conversation.

 

Fwiw, I just did a search for act scores for math placement, and a 28-29+ seems fairly close to avg consensus for placing into cal 1, so my guess was fairly accurate.

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Test scores actually are a better indicator many times - or should match the college grades. We have students who do Calc (college course) and get As, then test into remedial math when they get to 4 year schools. It sounds incredible - I used to think it would be an anomaly - but it isn't.

 

 

Our math department reports the same, but a big factor is that the placement tests cover mainly college algebra and trigonometry which, for these students, may have been several years past. We see students who have 5s on AP Calc BC having to place into remedial trig; they obviously know their calculus, but have forgotten advanced trig because they did not use it for two years.

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