If you've read "Boys Adrift" -- share your thoughts (s/o Steubenville thread)

[laughing lioness]

I read Girls Gone on the Edge and I kept asking dd 21 (at the time) if she thought it was accurate. She was in cosmotology school at the time and kept replying, "Welcome to my world, Yost."

 

I think Sax paints things very black and white. That being said, in my own experience my kids are kind of "outsideres" because they are "innocent" socially but very articulate about things politically, or whatever. - and I they've been told in church that they'll never have any minstry because they "haven't done anything." (as in immoral). We live in a socially stable (read boring) mid-city area in a libertarian state. I think in a bigger city my own kids would find more like-minded people. When we lived in L.A. there were more extremes all of colors. Here's there's no extreme. sigh. I need more spike (ala: Richard Florida)

[Rebecca VA]

Well, what Sax was saying in Girls on the Edge is that girls today have no inner life. They're all gloss and achievement, with little to no rich thought-world. It wasn't so much about being innocent versus being sophisticated (though he would say that girls' sophistication is only a facade and beneath the surface there's nothing there). If your children have deep, original ideas and can express them with plenty of enthusiasm, they're miles ahead of the average "zombie" girl of today.

[mommymilkies]

I just put these books on ILL, so I haven't read them yet. But I do see these problems every day. My stepfather *could* build things really well, but left all housework to my mother-including big repairs. She was never in one family long as a child and never learned how to do those things. So really, it was passed on to me to fix everything in the house from blown lightbulbs to holes in walls. I have 3 brothers and they never were even asked to pick up their dishes. Dh also was never asked to do a single dish or help with anything growing up, but his sister was expected to. His dad is a great handyman, too. So I am surrounded by men unable to pick up so much as a t-shirt from the floor or screw something into the wall. But not in my house, no sir. My son is expected to help fix stuff around here as much as my girls. They helped me install a new toilet, paint the bathroom, fix holes in the walls, fix sinks, repair washers, etc. By golly, I want them all to learn to use their hands and know how to use tools!!!

 

Sports around here are crazy, too. I don't mind physical sports. I have a brother in Rugby and I was a soccer girl, myself. It's the competitiveness at the expense of fun that's an issue here. Most of the parents and coaches act like their 5 year old striking out might as well give up on life because they'll never amount to anything. It's really, truly, insane. And the kids are not given any freedom to play or be kids, and almost none have chores or work they can do. I mean, to each their own, but I can see how this is a problem for boys, in particular.

[Dandelion]

I read the book a month ago, based on the recommendation from someone on this board. While I didn't agree with everything he said, I found most of his points and arguments very compelling.

 

I checked the book out from the library and have since returned it (so I can't make any specific page references here), but my key takeaways were:

• Video games: not only can they lead to kids disconnecting from real world activities (when kids play excessively), but the ultra-violent video games are giving kids a majorly distorted view of reality. The author references one of the versions of the Grand Theft Auto game as an example. In that game, players apparently earn points for stealing cars, picking up hookers and having simulated sex with them in the car, then more points for shooting the hooker after dumping her from the car, and extra bonus points for shooting the cops that then come after you. Apparently this level of violence and depraved behavior is becoming the norm in today's video games.
  
• Teaching methods: I thought the author made a very compelling argument for single-sex education. It wasn't something I had really considered before, but after reading through his points on this topic, I can really see the value. Contrary to what's been discussed upthread, the author doesn't expect all boys to be "manly men". In making his argument for single-sex schools, he specifically talks about boys who are more creative and artistic, and who tend to try to hide that in a co-ed school environment. Those boys don't want to be the only boy signing up for an arts elective at school, because they'll be teased mercilessly. So they often choose to suppress that part of themselves. At an all boys school, this issue goes away because they're signing up for those types of classes with a bunch of other boys. That was just one of his points that hit home with me on this topic.
  
• Prescription drugs: The findings on the lasting side effects of stimulant medication were very interesting to me. Apparently stimulant medication specifically acts on a part of the brain that controls motivation. According to the author (I don't recall which studies he cited), the side effects of this type of medication are persistent laziness and lack of motivation, which continue long after the medication is stopped.
  
• Endocrine disruptors: That chapter is both enlightening and disturbing. I was already aware of some of this information and had made changes for our family based on that, but I've become more vigilant now based on the additional info in that chapter.
  
• Devaluation of masculinity: The importance of positive male role models for boys was nothing new to me, but a new insight I gained from this chapter was around the concept of transition to manhood. The author's point is that all enduring cultures (cultures that have survived and stayed vibrant for hundreds or thousands of years) have specific ways that they mark a boy's transition to manhood. Most of these transitions involve ceremony (he discusses the ceremonial ways this transition is celebrated in Jewish and Native American traditions for example). American culture (and other westernized cultures) lacks this type of explicit transition. This chapter really made me think about how we (DH and I) can create a more intentional transition for DS when that time comes.
  

 

Overall, I thought this was a great book.

[Night Elf]

The author references one of the versions of the Grand Theft Auto game as an example. In that game, players apparently earn points for stealing cars, picking up hookers and having simulated sex with them in the car, then more points for shooting the hooker after dumping her from the car, and extra bonus points for shooting the cops that then come after you. Apparently this level of violence and depraved behavior is becoming the norm in today's video games.

 

Actually this is not true. The author is mistaken. There is no point system and there are no bonus rewards for the things you've mentioned. Shooting cops gets your wanted status up which is not really a good thing for completing other missions in the game. I was kind of miffed when I read that part.

[Night Elf]

I was surprised about the statistics he listed with regards to boys in college. I had no idea that colleges were predominantly female now. Every decade since 1949 has shown a decrease, going from 70% in 1949 to 42% in 2006. He also said that boys were more likely to quit college over girls.

[LucyStoner]

I think Sax speaks in too many generalities but also offers some good insights. I can't say more without writing a novel.

[laughing lioness]

He really hammered same sex ed in the girls book too. I'm not surpirsed about colleges being mainly female. the public ed system is geared toward females.

[justamouse]

I was surprised about the statistics he listed with regards to boys in college. I had no idea that colleges were predominantly female now. Every decade since 1949 has shown a decrease, going from 70% in 1949 to 42% in 2006. He also said that boys were more likely to quit college over girls.

 

 

 

Did you see the article on men's falling incomes because of lack of college education?

 

 

 

The fall of men in the workplace is widely regarded by economists as one of the nation’s most important and puzzling trends. While men, on average, still earn more than women, the gap between them has narrowed considerably, particularly among more recent entrants to the labor force.

 

For all Americans, it has become much harder to make a living without a college degree, for intertwined reasons including foreign competition, advancements in technology and the decline of unions. Over the same period, the earnings of college graduates have increased. Women have responded exactly as economists would have predicted, by going to college in record numbers. Men, mysteriously, have not.

 

Among people who were 35 years old in 2010, for example, women were 17 percent more likely to have attended college, and 23 percent more likely to hold an undergraduate degree.

“I think the greatest, most astonishing fact that I am aware of in social science right now is that women have been able to hear the labor market screaming out ‘You need more education’ and have been able to respond to that, and men have not,†said Michael Greenstone, an M.I.T. economics professor who was not involved in Professor Autor’s work. “And it’s very, very scary for economists because people should be responding to price signals. And men are not. It’s a fact in need of an explanation.â€

 

Most economists agree that men have suffered disproportionately from economic changes like the decline of manufacturing. But careful analyses have found that such changes explain only a small part of the shrinking wage gap.

 

One set of supplemental explanations holds that women are easier to educate or, as the journalistHanna Rosin wrote in “The End of Men,†because women are more adaptable. Professor Autor writes that such explanations are plausible and “intriguing,†but as yet unproven.

 

[Dandelion]

Actually this is not true. The author is mistaken. There is no point system and there are no bonus rewards for the things you've mentioned. Shooting cops gets your wanted status up which is not really a good thing for completing other missions in the game. I was kind of miffed when I read that part.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying. We don't own any video games, so I didn't know whether his description was accurate or not.

 

Sounds like the author was mistaken about the point system, but a quick google search just now confirmed that in Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (the version the author was talking about), players can in fact steal cars, kill a prostitute after having sex with her, shoot cops, and sell drugs. The fact that doing those things may adversely affect you in the game isn't really a consolation IMO.

[justamouse]

I read the book a month ago, based on the recommendation from someone on this board. While I didn't agree with everything he said, I found most of his points and arguments very compelling.

 

I checked the book out from the library and have since returned it (so I can't make any specific page references here), but my key takeaways were:

• Video games: not only can they lead to kids disconnecting from real world activities (when kids play excessively), but the ultra-violent video games are giving kids a majorly distorted view of reality. The author references one of the versions of the Grand Theft Auto game as an example. In that game, players apparently earn points for stealing cars, picking up hookers and having simulated sex with them in the car, then more points for shooting the hooker after dumping her from the car, and extra bonus points for shooting the cops that then come after you. Apparently this level of violence and depraved behavior is becoming the norm in today's video games.
  
• Teaching methods: I thought the author made a very compelling argument for single-sex education. It wasn't something I had really considered before, but after reading through his points on this topic, I can really see the value. Contrary to what's been discussed upthread, the author doesn't expect all boys to be "manly men". In making his argument for single-sex schools, he specifically talks about boys who are more creative and artistic, and who tend to try to hide that in a co-ed school environment. Those boys don't want to be the only boy signing up for an arts elective at school, because they'll be teased mercilessly. So they often choose to suppress that part of themselves. At an all boys school, this issue goes away because they're signing up for those types of classes with a bunch of other boys. That was just one of his points that hit home with me on this topic.
  
• Prescription drugs: The findings on the lasting side effects of stimulant medication were very interesting to me. Apparently stimulant medication specifically acts on a part of the brain that controls motivation. According to the author (I don't recall which studies he cited), the side effects of this type of medication are persistent laziness and lack of motivation, which continue long after the medication is stopped.
  
• Endocrine disruptors: That chapter is both enlightening and disturbing. I was already aware of some of this information and had made changes for our family based on that, but I've become more vigilant now based on the additional info in that chapter.
  
• Devaluation of masculinity: The importance of positive male role models for boys was nothing new to me, but a new insight I gained from this chapter was around the concept of transition to manhood. The author's point is that all enduring cultures (cultures that have survived and stayed vibrant for hundreds or thousands of years) have specific ways that they mark a boy's transition to manhood. Most of these transitions involve ceremony (he discusses the ceremonial ways this transition is celebrated in Jewish and Native American traditions for example). American culture (and other westernized cultures) lacks this type of explicit transition. This chapter really made me think about how we (DH and I) can create a more intentional transition for DS when that time comes.
  

Overall, I thought this was a great book.

 

Re: endocrine disruptors.

 

I have a friend who we affectionately call Dr PLastic who holds 2 PhDs. He works for the Federal Patent Office. He said (years ago) to never, ever put plastic in the microwave. Like, EVER. He's not a fan of microwaves, but that's beside the point, he said that even if you buy the frozen food in the tray, to take it out and only use glass in the nuker.

 

We swapped out all of our plastic in the house and I store things in glass. Unfortunately, it's so pervasive I can only hope all our efforts are working.

[Rebecca VA]

Speaking of plastic, you know what's really gross? Going to the Whole Foods deli and seeing containers of hot food stored in plastic. They keep rotisserie chicken heated in a plastic container all day, and they have containers full of warm macaroni and cheese. They also wrap hot breads and rolls in plastic -- you can even taste the plastic in the bread. Gag.

[justamouse]

 

I wish I could get rid of the plastic. I hate the stuff. I just don't know what to use for sending DH's lunch in. I used to send him glass, but then one day he pulled it out of the micro at work, burned his hands, dropped the thing on the floor, and had to come home. He asked me never to give him glass again. EEK...I don't blame him.

 

Tell him he's going to grow boobs, and to use a tea towel or paper towel when taking it out hot. :D He can drive, he can do this.

[Dandelion]

Re: endocrine disruptors.

 

I have a friend who we affectionately call Dr PLastic and holds 2 PhDs. He works for the Federal Patent Office. He said (years ago) to never, ever put plastic in the microwave. Like, EVER. He's not a fan of microwaves, but that's beside the point, he said that even if you buy the frozen food in the tray, to take it out and only use glass in the nuker.

 

We swapped out all of our plastic in the house and I store things in glass. Unfortunately, it's so pervasive I can only hope all our efforts are working.

 

I stopped using our microwave about 2 years ago after learning more about how it alters food. We still keep it around because DH uses it (I've tried talking to him about what I've learned, but he thinks I'm way out there with a lot of this stuff).

 

Trying to get away from plastic is definitely more difficult, but I'm working on it.

[justamouse]

Also, drink green tea --lots of it. It flushes extra estrogen out of your system.

[Liz CA]

Well, I think you have places where "football culture" is celebrated—and sometimes to an unhealthy degree. And venues (like this forum) where (generally speaking) football culture is disparaged. Then you have the great middle of American culture. And in this great middle I see the opportunities for the positive expression of normal boy energy disappearing.

 

At our elementary school I do not know a single boy who plays tackle football. Mine included. If you said you did, I know the look one would get from other parents. I get comments about lacrosse and rugby.

 

In the great middle boys are losing their opportunities for masculine outlet. While "slacker" culture is raised as a new normal.

 

I think we are getting out of whack. I know there are extremes of "jock culture." There is also a greater danger of over-reaction that further erodes positive masculine virtues that needs guarding against.

 

Bill

 

 

Balance -as in so many areas of life - is the key here.

Mens sana in corpore sano is still true IMHO. And the sedentary lifestyle be it due to excessive gaming (let alone the "message" of many games), watching TV, sitting around and twiddling your thumb is never a good thing.

 

Everyone needs a little down time but there needs to be plenty of "active" time too. It does not mean every kid has to be enrolled in 20 extracurricular activities. We were lucky to be living on a large property when ds grew up. Chopping wood, building and patching up outbuildings, riding horses, helping the elderly neighbor, feeding other people's livestock while they were out of town, were just a few things that were normal and done regularly.

 

As to football in particular, it seems to me from many posts here that there is a very unhealthy hero worship in some areas more than in others. Again it is something good taken to the extreme that turns it into something...not so good.

 

Bill, you are in Southern CA if memory serves. I am not surprised at all that football & rugby is frowned upon. Were you to sit on the sidewalk, play your guitar, whine about all social ills and collect dimes, people would be just fine with that. :leaving:

[Mom-ninja.]

Also, drink green tea --lots of it. It flushes extra estrogen out of your system.

 

 

And yet now green tea is starting to get a bad rap for being too high in fluoride from water sources. I can't remember where I read that.....

 

So, basically our environment is so messed up there's no escaping.

[ktgrok]

 

 

So I guess my son does fall into the gamer category, but I don't see it as a problem. I don't try to talk it up and say it's good for him and will help him become a surgeon or anything. It's truly his major enjoyment because there simply isn't anything else. But his school work is always done and he makes fantastic grades. He plans on college although he gets scared talking about it. I blame homeschooling for that. I wonder how the author feels about homeschooling?

 

And going back to football anyway, the author made a point of saying that schools weren't meeting the needs of the boys in the physical category anyway. With a school having only one team, that leaves out a whole slew of boys that could benefit from being a player and having an outlet for his energy. He blames that fact for many kids getting into video games. So yes, I can understand that. He suggested schools have multiple teams of the same level. I'm not talking about one JV and one V team each.

 

I'll continue reading. I am on the chapter that talks about the environmental problems that could be robbing boys of their masculinity. I find that fact disturbing actually. It affects girls too. I wonder what society will be like as these kids grow up and have kids of their own.

 

Oh well. I'd like to see more opinions about the book itself. I just can't relate to the whole sports culture at all.

 

 

 

I think his argument against computer games was that in some cases the boys live out a vicarious life through them..they don't build things in real life, they build in games. They don't conquer actual problems, just ones in games, etc. A "geek" that learns to build a server for his friends to play on, or build a computer, or write code to improve the game is still building and creating actual things...just as much as building a house.

 

active versus passive may be the point, more than outdoors versus indoors.

[Spy Car]

 

 

Actually this is not true. The author is mistaken. There is no point system and there are no bonus rewards for the things you've mentioned. Shooting cops gets your wanted status up which is not really a good thing for completing other missions in the game. I was kind of miffed when I read that part.

 

 

I could care less if the author got a detail wrong, the fact remains that players in Grand Theft Auto rape and then murder prostitutes and leave them in a pool of blood. This game is beyond grotesque.

 

Bill

[AdventureMoms]

I think Sax speaks in too many generalities but also offers some good insights. I can't say more without writing a novel.

 

This is pretty much exactly how I felt. I liked his books, I read all three of them. I think he has some great insights. And I disagree with him pretty strongly on some of his specifics. My biggest disagreement with him is probably in the book "Why Gender Matters" in the chapter about non-gender-typical boys. He basically says that such boys are the fault of overprotective mothers, and that it should be considered a form of child abuse, largely because such boys are at increased risk for bullying. I am an engineer, I'm also gay. I know a lot of non-gender typical men of various sorts. I don't think most of them were created by overprotective mothers, and I don't think most of them would want to be different. I agree with Sax that we need to accept gender typical behavior exists in men and boys voice, and find good outlets for it in our culture, which has become more difficult. We also need to accept that non-gender typical behavior in males is valid.

 

Okay, so I wrote a novel anyway. I could probably write about six more about those books. They're very good books, but do be aware that he tends to get a little black-and-white, and Has certain opinions which he passes off as fact. He is a huge fan of sports, he is huge fan of single-sex education, he is a big fan of gender normative behavior for boys, however it apparently thinks that non-gender normative behavior is fine for girls. It's a mixed bag.

[Rosie_0801]

Our boys need the opportunity to be around other men,

 

Men need to want to spend time with boys too.

[LucyStoner]

AdventureMoms- you hit the nail on the head for me. I am all for boys and girls expressing their gender identities. I think that biologically and socially, males trend one way and women the other. That is fine and dandy and wonderful. That said, there are many people who are not interested in some or all gender normative activities for their culture. Where we run into trouble is trying to force people to fit into a rigid gender dichotomy or when we try to make someone do gendered things that are not inate or preferred for them.

 

It's every bit as damaging to force a boy to be less rough and tumble/criticize him for masculine traits as it is to try to force a girl not to be rough and tumble. Still it is also damaging to force a boy more interested in cooking than cars to stop cooking. Sax accepts the first part of gender equality- that women shouldn't be limited to narrow roles. At the same time, he pathologizes men who are not limiting themselves to narrow roles. Our culture rejects men who give up any of their status by enjoying traditionally female hobbies and endeavors. It's really remarkably insulting to men who don't fall into all traditionally male activities. We don't just criticize them, we use labels and terms that strip them of their maleness outright. It's disgusting. A man can cook and sew and nurture a baby and anything else he likes be it hunting or knitting or football and still be a "real man". Until we accept this, the fight for gender equality is unfinished.

[FLDebbie]

• Devaluation of masculinity: The importance of positive male role models for boys was nothing new to me, but a new insight I gained from this chapter was around the concept of transition to manhood. The author's point is that all enduring cultures (cultures that have survived and stayed vibrant for hundreds or thousands of years) have specific ways that they mark a boy's transition to manhood. Most of these transitions involve ceremony (he discusses the ceremonial ways this transition is celebrated in Jewish and Native American traditions for example). American culture (and other westernized cultures) lacks this type of explicit transition. This chapter really made me think about how we (DH and I) can create a more intentional transition for DS when that time comes.
  

Overall, I thought this was a great book.

 

I really liked your comments. Here's my smart-aleck, and totally unacceptable (and completely meant as a joke) response to your issue of how to intentionally transition your DS to adulthood - Why don't you just take him to a strip joint for a few drinks?

[swimmermom3]

AdventureMoms- you hit the nail on the head for me. I am all for boys and girls expressing their gender identities. I think that biologically and socially, males trend one way and women the other. That is fine and dandy and wonderful. That said, there are many people who are not interested in some or all gender normative activities for their culture. Where we run into trouble is trying to force people to fit into a rigid gender dichotomy or when we try to make someone do gendered things that are not inate or preferred for them.

 

It's every bit as damaging to force a boy to be less rough and tumble/criticize him for masculine traits as it is to try to force a girl not to be rough and tumble. Still it is also damaging to force a boy more interested in cooking than cars to stop cooking. Sax accepts the first part of gender equality- that women shouldn't be limited to narrow roles. At the same time, he pathologizes men who are not limiting themselves to narrow roles. Our culture rejects men who give up any of their status by enjoying traditionally female hobbies and endeavors. It's really remarkably insulting to men who don't fall into all traditionally male activities. We don't just criticize them, we use labels and terms that strip them of their maleness outright. It's disgusting. A man can cook and sew and nurture a baby and anything else he likes be it hunting or knitting or football and still be a "real man". Until we accept this, the fight for gender equality is unfinished.

 

This makes me think of my BIL, who disliked playing football in high school even though the coaches were after him because of his size. He is over six feet tall, a former Marine sharpshooting instructor, a heavily flame-tatooed Harley-riding welder, who is also a slick mechanic and skilled artist. When our girls were little, he was the one who fixed my nieces' dance costumes and he and my dh routinely exchange new techniques and recipes at Thanksgiving, much to my father's delight. Both my BIL and dh believe that competence in the task at hand is the hallmark of character and manhood, not the task itself. You do what needs to be done. Period.

[LucyStoner]

 

 

This makes me think of my BIL, who disliked playing football in high school even though the coaches were after him because of his size. He is over six feet tall, a former Marine sharpshooting instructor, a heavily flame-tatooed Harley-riding welder, who is also a slick mechanic and skilled artist. When our girls were little, he was the one who fixed my nieces' dance costumes and he and my dh routinely exchange new techniques and recipes at Thanksgiving, much to my father's delight. Both my BIL and dh believe that competence in the task at hand is the hallmark of character and manhood, not the task itself. You do what needs to be done. Period.

 

Same here. My BIL is very handy and very traditionally masculine in most ways. Handy enough to build a house and rebuild a car. He also knits and sews extremely well. These things are not mutually exclusive.

[justamouse]

And yet now green tea is starting to get a bad rap for being too high in fluoride from water sources. I can't remember where I read that.....

 

So, basically our environment is so messed up there's no escaping.

 

Yahoo? I read that one too. I ignored it. :D Filter the water.

[Dicentra]

You should hear my father utterly *lament* how boys now know how to do nothing and compare it to his upbringing.

 

Now, my Grandfather was a Scout leader, owned his own fridge/plumbing business and that man could build a house with a pocketknife and a tree. He taught his sons the same. My father tells me stories of the old Popular Science for Boys mags, that gave these directions that you and I would have to own all of Home Despot to make, but back then, they had on hand. How they fixed everything and made stuff from their own imaginations.

 

I just wanted to say...

 

I want to shop at Home Despot. :D

 

(Not picking on you, justamouse! :) I know this was probably one of those auto-correct things - it just struck me as funny today.)