Talk me out of MCT Island

[Sahamamama]

Why wouldn't you use MCT Island?

 

I need reasons. :D

[Chrysalis Academy]

but, but, whatever anyone says, I would have one answer: Mud!

[Crimson Wife]

Because MCT is very expensive and TBH, "island" does not cover all that much in the way of content. The part where MCT is strongest when it comes to the higher elementary levels (vocab) is very weak in "island". If you're using FLL, your kids have already learned everything covered in "island" plus more. Now I do like Sentence Island, but my recommendation if you are on a budget is to get the "town" level plus SI. Start with SI, then move into the rest of "town".

[Alte Veste Academy]

Why wouldn't you use MCT? Hmmm. If you don't want a fun, cuddly, creative, beautiful language program?

 

Eh, it isn't all that you need. Neither is oxygen...

 

:D

[Sahamamama]

Because MCT is very expensive and TBH, "island" does not cover all that much in the way of content. The part where MCT is strongest when it comes to the higher elementary levels (vocab) is very weak in "island". If you're using FLL, your kids have already learned everything covered in "island" plus more. Now I do like Sentence Island, but my recommendation if you are on a budget is to get the "town" level plus SI. Start with SI, then move into the rest of "town".

 

 

Reason #1 = MCT is expensive

 

Reason #2 = MCT Island is a repeat of FLL 1, 2, and 3

 

Reason #3 = MCT Island is weak in vocabulary, and she's already doing Latin + English Roots

 

My 2nd grader will probably finish FLL 3 this year. She's also easily doing Prima Latina and English from the Roots Up, Volume 1. So MCT Island would be redundant, yes?

 

I was thinking about doing something different for 3rd grade -- maybe half of FLL 4 + _____________? What would you add to half of FLL 4 for 3rd grade? It's okay if we have an easier year, though. She wants to learn other things and she's on-track to finish FLL 4 by the end of 4th grade, anyway.

[FairProspects]

Because MCT is very expensive and TBH, "island" does not cover all that much in the way of content. The part where MCT is strongest when it comes to the higher elementary levels (vocab) is very weak in "island". If you're using FLL, your kids have already learned everything covered in "island" plus more. Now I do like Sentence Island, but my recommendation if you are on a budget is to get the "town" level plus SI. Start with SI, then move into the rest of "town".

 

 

Hmm. Well I agree and disagree. Yes, the vocab is weak, at least the part we have worked through so far (we are in the middle). I think Practice Island is much harder than FLL 3, particularly if you diagram the sentences. FLL 3 is so formulaic, ds could easily fill in the patterns without having to think at all about the grammar or parts of speech. There is zero way he can do this in MCT because of the 4 level analysis.

 

Secondly, knowing is not applying. Ds can easily memorize the definition of a noun and lists of pronouns like he did in FLL, and yet still struggle to pick them out of a sentence. Practice Island is great for forcing that application. Perhaps more LA intuitive students do this all in one step, but not all students do, so just from an application stand point MCT is better IMHO.

[Matryoshka]

Hmm. Well I agree and disagree. Yes, the vocab is weak, at least the part we have worked through so far (we are in the middle). I think Practice Island is much harder than FLL 3, particularly if you diagram the sentences. FLL 3 is so formulaic, ds could easily fill in the patterns without having to think at all about the grammar or parts of speech. There is zero way he can do this in MCT because of the 4 level analysis.

 

Secondly, knowing is not applying. Ds can easily memorize the definition of a noun and lists of pronouns like he did in FLL, and yet still struggle to pick them out of a sentence. Practice Island is great for forcing that application. Perhaps more LA intuitive students do this all in one step, but not all students do, so just from an application stand point MCT is better IMHO.

 

:iagree: Sorry, Island is awesome. Skip Building Language, but the rest is soooo good. :D

[delaney]

I bought and promptly sold MCT products. Not my thing and totally unappealing to my kids. They like a more straight forward approach.

[boscopup]

1) It's expensive.

2) It's teacher intensive.

 

I debated back and forth and almost got MCT Island, but after doing FLL3 and looking through Island, I didn't see anything new grammar-wise, and he wasn't at all ready for the writing in Sentence Island. That would have completely freaked him out - too creative. I did get Building Language and Music of the Hemispheres, and we liked them, but I ended up cutting them out from our day because they weren't essential. We're already doing Latin, so so that takes care of vocab. And well, I still hate poetry. :leaving:

 

Instead, I used KISS (free) to get the work analyzing real sentences from literature. We did level 1 and enjoyed it (it was also teacher intensive though - we had to work together, because it was not easy, and this kid gets grammar easily). Now we're using R&S a grade level up, since it's less teacher intensive and includes more writing in the form of "copywork", which my son needs to just get used to writing more. Your DD likely doesn't have the same writing needs though, so she may love the creativeness of Sentence Island. ;)

[Crimson Wife]

I think Practice Island is much harder than FLL 3, particularly if you diagram the sentences.

 

Practice Town is very similar in terms of challenge level to Practice Island IMHO having gone through both books. PT does get into some more complicated sentences by the end, but honestly, I don't think a student really loses anything in skipping PI and just starting straight at the "town" level.

 

MCT doesn't teach diagramming at all, so that would be something the parent has to add to his practice books (I do teach diagramming after Grammar Town).

[FairProspects]

 

Practice Town is very similar in terms of challenge level to Practice Island IMHO having gone through both books. PT does get into some more complicated sentences by the end, but honestly, I don't think a student really loses anything in skipping PI and just starting straight at the "town" level.

 

Ah, I see. I wasn't thinking in terms of skipping and doing Paragraph Town instead. I was just thinking about the comparison to FLL, and there I think MCT is more effective than FLL 3 due to the application and 4 level analysis.

[Violet Crown]

EDITED: Because MCT grammar is no more reflective of the last hundred years of linguistic understanding than that of other, cheaper, programs.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Ah, I see. I wasn't thinking in terms of skipping and doing Paragraph Town instead. I was just thinking about the comparison to FLL, and there I think MCT is more effective than FLL 3 due to the application and 4 level analysis.

 

:iagree: but the OP had in her siggie that her students were already doing FLL. My oldest did FLL 1/2, then a mish-mosh of stuff before I hit upon the combo of Killgallon Story Grammar and MCT "town". My 2nd found FLL 1/2 a very bad "fit" so I held off on grammar until he was ready to start MCT "island". He enjoys it, but I don't find "island" nearly as strong a program as "town". Given the steep price, I wish I had just bought Sentence Island and skipped the rest of the level.

[Tracy]

Because if they ever take a class in linguistics, they'll have to unlearn the nonsensical grammar they picked up from MCT. (To be fair, it's the same nonsensical grammar they'll get in any other homeschool frammar program. It's just MY reason for ditching MCT. YMMV.)

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "nonsensical grammar?"

 

And which programs do consider to teach "sensical grammar?"

[Crimson Wife]

It's a super-long thread but it's got some pretty interesting discussion: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/229007-had-it-with-mct-is-there-a-structural-grammar-curriculum/

[Violet Crown]

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[Arboreal TJ]

It's a super-long thread but it's got some pretty interesting discussion: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/229007-had-it-with-mct-is-there-a-structural-grammar-curriculum/

 

 

If ever I had doubts about my weakness in LA that thread squashed my doubts and confirmed my suspicions!

[Violet Crown]

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[Tracy]

Alas, only college grammar texts, it seems. I've been adapting Wardhaugh's Understanding English Grammar to the upper elementary level.

 

 

So if we opt to teach elementary grammar to elementary students, then we are choosing the non-sensical route? That seems pretty non-sensical, if you don't mind my saying. :willy_nilly:

[Violet Crown]

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[NittanyJen]

 

MCT doesn't teach diagramming at all, so that would be something the parent has to add to his practice books (I do teach diagramming after Grammar Town).

 

It does begin at the Magic Lens level. The instruction is just as brief as the rest of it, but it is there.

 

I do wish he would add this element to the program, but I can see why he doesn't-- there is a big visual element going on already with the way he illustrates his parts of speech (relating the part of speech systems) and parts of the sentence (his bubble-diagrams showing the S-AVP-IO-DO/LVP-SC branching), and adding diagramming on to that might create some confusion as a third set of diagrams of the same essential information in the book. So, I am guessing that that might be the reasoning behind leaving it out until Magic Lens level.

 

That does leave you with having to add in another diagramming text if you want to introduce it before sixth grade, or if you want a longer book with more worked examples.

[Alte Veste Academy]

For me, saying MCT costs too much compared to other programs is like saying a steak at a four star restaurant costs too much compared to a steak from The Golden Corral. They are both steaks, but of vastly different quality, with distinct differences in presentation and enjoyment. There is price and then there is value.

[SunnyDays]

For me, saying MCT costs too much compared to other programs is like saying a steak at a four star restaurant costs too much compared to a steak from The Golden Corral. They are both steaks, but of vastly different quality, with distinct differences in presentation and enjoyment. There is price and then there is value.

 

:iagree: This, exactly. We're using Hake with MCT to cover diagramming and mechanics. But MCT is very much the beauty of our Language Arts curricula.

 

 

Talk you OUT of it? Why would we do such a thing?? ;)

[Sahamamama]

Come on, I know there must be more reasons to NOT do MCT Island (with a student who has completed FLL 1, 2 & 3 + WWE 2 + AAS 3 or 4 + English Roots + Prima Latina + Evan-Moor Poetry).

 

Help me out here, folks! :)

 

Back away from the "Complete Order" button, Sahamamama....

[Chrysalis Academy]

Seriously? In your case, I would just do Sentence Island, then move on to Town level. This is what we did. It worked great, and I am so glad we didn't miss out on Mud, but I also see now that there is enough repetition in the elementary level that doing all 3 would have been overkill. For us.

[pitterpatter]

I don't understand why it's so popular. I looked at the sample and thought it cumbersome, annoying and honestly I don't think the writing is that great or interesting. Plus, good design is important to me. MCT is way too homegrown for my tastes.

 

But hey, what do I know...

[Crimson Wife]

The samples don't do the program justice. The "town" level also has a much better visual "look" to it than "island" does (now that I think about it, that probably is one of the reasons I don't care all that much for "island").

[FairProspects]

It is a big-picture style of teaching and there is very little else like that on the market for grammar. Everything else is super linear. That is partly why it is so popular.

[ByGrace3]

Oh dear...why did I come in here???

[LMD]

Because you don't want to fix what 'ain't broken!

 

 

We love mct though...

[LMD]

 

It got long in large part because I wasn't very clear early on. From post #198 onward I managed (I think) to start setting out what I meant more clearly.

 

Improvising my own grammar curriculum has been working grandly. Middle Girl can now tell me not only what a pronoun is, but can give three reasons why it's incorrect to say that it takes the place of a noun. :D

 

Well Violet Crown, you just found a gap in the market! How long til you publish? ;) can I pre order?

[Violet Crown]

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[NittanyJen]

 

I keep thinking that I really need to be writing down the lessons as I go! Maybe this summer, when it's too hot to do anything else. I promise, though, if I do something like this, I'll put anything actually produced in a Dropbox link for free.

 

 

I hope VioletCrown includes a section on why it's a myth that you cannot properly end a sentence with a preposition! That has to be one of the most pernicious "everybody knows it" truths that is simply wrong in all of English grammar. I giggle whenever I hear it, but I also understand, because so many teachers passed it along.

 

 

[texasmama]

I repeat to myself, "Do not fix what is not broken," ad nauseum until I am distracted and forget I was thinking about a shiny new curriculum. :D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

but, but, whatever anyone says, I would have one answer: Mud!

 

 

 

Can a student appreciate Mud without having read Sentence Island? My started at Paragraph level.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Can a student appreciate Mud without having read Sentence Island? My started at Paragraph level.

 

 

Now, that is a good question - would the Mud novels be so appealing if you hadn't already "met" most of the characters in Sentence Island? I'm leaning towards no. There isn't much character development in the Mud novels, IMO, so if you haven't already met the characters and "gotten" that they each have idiosyncracies that illustrate the sentency-thing that they are teaching Mud, they might just seem weird and inexplicable.

 

I gotta say, I don't find the Mud novels great literature. They are nice for vocabulary development, for kids who aren't ready for things like Alice and The Wind in the Willows (which I think of as more like 5th grade level, independent reading? Younger for read-aloud, of course. Though I'm sure someone will disagree with me). But they aren't fantastically well-plotted and well-developed stand-alone stories. IMHO, of course!

[Violet Crown]

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[Violet Crown]

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[Sahamamama]

I repeat to myself, "Do not fix what is not broken," ad nauseum until I am distracted and forget I was thinking about a shiny new curriculum. :D

 

 

See? Now, this is what I need to hear more of, people. :toetap05: Ahem. I said, "Talk me OUT of MCT Island." 15,000 rep points to Texasmama. ;) (Remember rep points?)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Now, that is a good question - would the Mud novels be so appealing if you hadn't already "met" most of the characters in Sentence Island? I'm leaning towards no. There isn't much character development in the Mud novels, IMO, so if you haven't already met the characters and "gotten" that they each have idiosyncracies that illustrate the sentency-thing that they are teaching Mud, they might just seem weird and inexplicable.

 

I gotta say, I don't find the Mud novels great literature. They are nice for vocabulary development, for kids who aren't ready for things like Alice and The Wind in the Willows (which I think of as more like 5th grade level, independent reading? Younger for read-aloud, of course. Though I'm sure someone will disagree with me). But they aren't fantastically well-plotted and well-developed stand-alone stories. IMHO, of course!

 

I am primarily interested in Mud series if they increase vocabulary of the classic words in a fun way. Do they do that? This is for ds who is an advanced reader and who reads voraciously. He does like funny books though.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I am primarily interested in Mud series if they increase vocabulary of the classic words in a fun way. Do they do that? This is for ds who is an advanced reader and who reads voraciously. He does like funny books though.

 

Yes, in your case they are perfect for your purpose - they increase the understanding of the vocab you are getting in the program, in a fun and engaging way.

 

The books aren't terribly funny, there are serious catastrophes that the animals have to deal with, but there are definitely some amusing aspects. My dd10, who loved SI, really liked the books. OTOH, they only took her ~half an hour to read (each). So from my POV, it wasn't the greatest investment . . . but it was a nice christmas gift, and her little sister will enjoy them in a couple of years.

[PhotoGal]

Because mine are just sitting around and I dread getting them out again? We made it a little bit into the first book. I keep wanting to try them because I know people love them. I just find them confusing and asthetically unappealing.

[Halcyon]

We bought it for younger and I thought it would be a great fit. But he already knew most of it, and found it a bit tedious. I know, I know, sacrilege. We prefer KiSS for grammar and lots of good read alouds.

[Grantmom]

It got long in large part because I wasn't very clear early on. From post #198 onward I managed (I think) to start setting out what I meant more clearly. Improvising my own grammar curriculum has been working grandly. Middle Girl can now tell me not only what a pronoun is, but can give three reasons why it's incorrect to say that it takes the place of a noun. :D

 

(Umm, what are the three reasons? Because we just did a grammar book yesterday that said that exact definition. I need a grammar tutor!)

 

Now, that is a good question - would the Mud novels be so appealing if you hadn't already "met" most of the characters in Sentence Island? I'm leaning towards no. There isn't much character development in the Mud novels, IMO, so if you haven't already met the characters and "gotten" that they each have idiosyncracies that illustrate the sentency-thing that they are teaching Mud, they might just seem weird and inexplicable. I gotta say, I don't find the Mud novels great literature. They are nice for vocabulary development, for kids who aren't ready for things like Alice and The Wind in the Willows (which I think of as more like 5th grade level, independent reading? Younger for read-aloud, of course. Though I'm sure someone will disagree with me). But they aren't fantastically well-plotted and well-developed stand-alone stories. IMHO, of course!

 

I was feeling like I needed to buy the "complete set" of whatever level I started with. Would it be okay to buy ONLY Sentence Island (the guide or the student book?), and then move ahead and buy the complete set for the Town level?

 

How important is it to buy the complete set? I know that many feel it's worth the investment, but money is just tight for me right now and I just need to spread it as thinly as possible.

 

I hope VioletCrown includes a section on why it's a myth that you cannot properly end a sentence with a preposition! That has to be one of the most pernicious "everybody knows it" truths that is simply wrong in all of English grammar. I giggle whenever I hear it, but I also understand, because so many teachers passed it along.

 

(Again, I guess I never knew I needed a grammar tutor! Why is this? This is something I remember by English teacher emphasizing 30 years ago!!)

 

Really, is there a good (cheap) text that would give ME a better background. Or does MCT teach this stuff and I can learn alongside them?

 

Is the only omission from MCT the diagramming? In all other aspects, is it pretty much complete coverage of grammar?

[Violet Crown]

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[Violet Crown]

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[LMD]

 

I keep thinking that I really need to be writing down the lessons as I go! Maybe this summer, when it's too hot to do anything else. I promise, though, if I do something like this, I'll put anything actually produced in a Dropbox link for free.

Like like like! (because one wasn't enough!)

 

[LMD]

Ok, now after reading your last posts Violet Crown, my head hurts. Make sure you organise a way to donate for your download! As someone who got zero grammar at school, mct is teaching me along side my dd.

[FairProspects]

Reason #2

 

It's raining.

 

There happens to be a board shutdown.

 

What nouns or noun phrases do "it" and "there" take the place of in the above sentences?

 

 

I get it, but what is a better, simple definition of a pronoun? If you can give me one, I'll use that with the kids instead. It's sort of an abstract concept though. How can it be made more concrete for younger learners?

[Violet Crown]

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