What do you think of this? -- Nurse Fired for Refusing Flu Shot

[TravelingChris]

I am totally in favor of this policy, as long as there is an exception to people who have a real medical reason for not getting the vaccine. It is one hundred percent effective--- no. All I know is that I have been getting flu vaccines every year for the last 26 years and actually longer and so has all my family and none of us have ever had the flu. Not even in the years the vaccine wasn't so effective or for the wrong strain. I think it is because we have had so many vaccines, we have become immunized to most of the flu strains. (Yes, I know they mutate but they still have common genetic characteristics with previous versions). Anyway- I am a triple high risk patient and do get lots of bronchitis and sinusitis and sometimes pneumonias. I get them easily but I don't get the flu, for which we have vaccines.

 

There are other jobs you can hold if you have a personal reason against vaccines, but medical service shouldn't be one of them.

[TranquilMind]

'transientChris':

I am totally in favor of this policy, as long as there is an exception to people who have a real medical reason for not getting the vaccine. It is one hundred percent effective--- no. All I know is that I have been getting flu vaccines every year for the last 26 years and actually longer and so has all my family and none of us have ever had the flu.

 

Likewise, we have never had flu vaccines, ever, and have never had the flu.

 

For every anecdotal story like yours, there is one like mine. So, obviously people should be able to use their own judgment.

 

 

 

Not even in the years the vaccine wasn't so effective or for the wrong strain. I think it is because we have had so many vaccines, we have become immunized to most of the flu strains.

 

I believe precisely the opposite. Because our bodies have had opportunity to build natural immunity to everything the proper way, instead of the injected way for every single thing, we have become immune. Indeed, everyone of my generation is immune to the Chicken pox, even if they never had it - like me (and my Mother) - because we all had natural exposure in our childhoods in the community.

 

Logic would dictate that many other immunities have built that way as well. I actually think the over-(and extremely early) vaccination of the current generations has had major detrimental impact on health. I got 3 or 4 vaccines in childhood, total. Today, they want to do 69 vaccinations from birth to age 18 (last I read - has probably increased further by now!). Do we really think this is having no impact on health, with all the chemicals being injected? I just can't buy that.

 

 

 

 

There are other jobs you can hold if you have a personal reason against vaccines, but medical service shouldn't be one of them.

 

I could not disagree more, and would strongly prefer the nurse or doctor who actually washes their hands and wears a mask (if patient susceptible) rather than relies on the nebulous "benefits' of vaccines.

[Ali in OR]

 

 

I believe precisely the opposite. Because our bodies have had opportunity to build natural immunity to everything the proper way, instead of the injected way for every single thing, we have become immune. Indeed, everyone of my generation is immune to the Chicken pox, even if they never had it - like me (and my Mother) - because we all had natural exposure in our childhoods in the community.

You do not have immunity to chicken pox if you have never had it or the vaccine. You may benefit from herd immunity--you don't get it because everyone around you has had it or the vaccine--but you don't build natural immunity if you haven't actually had it or the vaccine. Immunity comes from antibodies forming against something within your body--either the virus itself or the vaccine.

 

 

 

I could not disagree more, and would strongly prefer the nurse or doctor who actually washes their hands and wears a mask (if patient susceptible) rather than relies on the nebulous "benefits' of vaccines.

It's not an either/or. I strongly prefer my nurse or doctor to wash hands, wear a mask when appropriate, AND get vaccinated against influenza. I want them to take EVERY precaution to not spread illness and those who work in the field of public health understand the very real benefit of vaccination. Families who have medically fragile loved ones want professional staff who don't mess around with this. And thankfully most every medical professional I've encountered takes all of this seriously--both the hand washing and the vaccinations.

 

[TranquilMind]

Ali in OR:

 

When you comment inside a quote, no one can respond directly as it does not show up when you hit "reply".

 

Anyway, you are completely and totally inaccurate. I absolutely AM immune to CP without ever having had it, and had the blood work to prove it. I had a titer done in my 40's when the kids got it, at my doctor's request. He reported that nearly everyone of our (his and my- about the same age) generation is immune because we all had routine exposure, even if we didn't get it, but he needed to check because it is hard on older people.

 

I was immune according to the blood titer.

[WishboneDawn]

Ali in OR:

 

When you comment inside a quote, no one can respond directly as it does not show up when you hit "reply".

 

Anyway, you are completely and totally inaccurate. I absolutely AM immune to CP without ever having had it, and had the blood work to prove it. I had a titer done in my 40's when the kids got it, at my doctor's request. He reported that nearly everyone of our (his and my- about the same age) generation is immune because we all had routine exposure, even if we didn't get it, but he needed to check because it is hard on older people.

 

I was immune according to the blood titer.

 

 

Yes, he said everyone had routine exposure. What do you imagine that means?

 

What it should mean is that you did have the CP virus in your body at some point. Ali is correct. It may have been a mild strain and you suffered no symptoms as a result but that's what exposure is. Very likely what he meant by, "didn't get it", is that you didn't have any symptoms.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm glad it all worked out for you.

 

I wouldn't give all the credit to a flu shot though. If it did work - and evidence that they do work is sketchy - that's great. Otherwise, your immune system did the job. Maybe God simply protected you and your baby - we certainly hope so when we pray.

 

It's not sketchy at all. Figures (with links to proper sources) in this thread have put the effectiveness rate at 50 to 70 percent. Yes, that may give an individual pause but those numbers are big when looked at from a public health perspective. I think this has been mentioned, and ignored, several times.

[TranquilMind]

Yes, he said everyone had routine exposure. What do you imagine that means?

 

What it should mean is that you did have the CP virus in your body at some point. Ali is correct. It may have been a mild strain and you suffered no symptoms as a result but that's what exposure is. Very likely what he meant by, "didn't get it", is that you didn't have any symptoms.

 

 

Well, sure, if you want to be excruciatingly specific.

 

But I'd sure rather have the lifetime immunity that comes from the exposure and "getting it" asymptomatically, than the 5 year nebulous "protection" that comes from the vaccine, with boosters demanded in perpetuity.

[TranquilMind]

It's not sketchy at all. Figures (with links to proper sources) in this thread have put the effectiveness rate at 50 to 70 percent. Yes, that may give an individual pause but those numbers are big when looked at from a public health perspective. I think this has been mentioned, and ignored, several times.

 

 

So a 50-50 change of getting the flu anyway,vaccination or no vaccination, basically? Gee, now those are some impressive odds.

 

Why bother?

[mytwomonkeys]

Likewise, we have never had flu vaccines, ever, and have never had the flu.

 

For every anecdotal story like yours, there is one like mine. So, obviously people should be able to use their own judgment.

 

 

i agree. i am almost 42 & have had the flu only once in my life. i've never received the flu shot. the year i did have the flu, it was miserable for sure, but i recovered at home with no tamiflu or doctors. many people who do get the flu shot also get ill with the flu, that's evident from these boards alone. they also tend to get sick with many other types of colds and viruses much more than my own family, but trying to use that as a statistic or proof of anything is silly. personal stories are much more circumstantial than scientific.

 

i think nurses should take precautions against the flu. i think masks and hand washing should be mandatory, no exceptions. especially if working with an immune-compromised patient or one with fragile health. a flu vaccine is not the frontline of defense imho. to read here that hospitals require a vaccine OR the nurse has to wear a mask is absurd to me. a nurse should always have to wear a mask when handling ill patients. washing hands, wearing gloves, masks, etc. those should be issues worth fighting about.

[LucyStoner]

 

What it should mean is that you did have the CP virus in your body at some point. Ali is correct. It may have been a mild strain and you suffered no symptoms as a result but that's what exposure is. Very likely what he meant by, "didn't get it", is that you didn't have any symptoms.

 

 

Exactly. Also highly common is that adults do not recall every illness they had in their childhood. Considering most people do not have clear chronological memories of their toddler years, many have had it and do not recall. It is also very possible to get such a mild case that no one notices it. My brother had fewer than 10 pox bumps and few other symptoms, compared to me and my other brother who were covered head to toe. Had the brother with the mild case not had it at the same time as us, it easily could have gone unnoticed.

[LucyStoner]

So a 50-50 change of getting the flu anyway,vaccination or no vaccination, basically? Gee, now those are some impressive odds.

 

 

That's not what "effectiveness rate" means.

[WishboneDawn]

Well, sure, if you want to be excruciatingly specific.

 

But I'd sure rather have the lifetime immunity that comes from the exposure and "getting it" asymptomatically, than the 5 year nebulous "protection" that comes from the vaccine, with boosters demanded in perpetuity.

 

It\s not "excruciatingly specific", it's necessarily so. Your post suggested that Ali was wrong and that you could somehow develop an immunity without having actually had the virus and further, that your doctor had said this. None of that is true and it's important to be clear about that.

[WishboneDawn]

So a 50-50 change of getting the flu anyway,vaccination or no vaccination, basically? Gee, now those are some impressive odds.

 

Why bother?

 

No, it's not a 50-50 chance. There were links in the posts that quoted those figures that might give you more information on what those numbers actually refer to.

[WishboneDawn]

Likewise, we have never had flu vaccines, ever, and have never had the flu.

 

For every anecdotal story like yours, there is one like mine. So, obviously people should be able to use their own judgment.

 

 

 

No, obviously people should view anecdotes with a skeptical eye and make sure they're well balanced by actual data. A person's judgement is only as good as the information they use to support that judgement - anecdotes are a pretty poor source of useful information.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

Well, sure, if you want to be excruciatingly specific.

 

But I'd sure rather have the lifetime immunity that comes from the exposure and "getting it" asymptomatically, than the 5 year nebulous "protection" that comes from the vaccine, with boosters demanded in perpetuity.

 

 

Except, you are not protected forever. The chicken pod virus can come back to haunt you in the form of shingles when you are older. People who have had the vaccine and get boosters should never get shingles.

 

To me, most of this thread is way off topic. Can employers insist that employees receive certain vaccines, drug tests, etc? Yes, end of story.

[momto2Cs]

Dh's hospital said you can opt out of the flu shot, but you would have to wear a mask every day at work.

 

 

This I support. I do not think forcing people to get flu shots, that don't even work properly, is at all appropriate. Firing someone with an excellent track record over a shot rather than offering them the mask option is simply ridiculous.

[mommaduck]

 

If it's a religious claim.....what is she doing working as a nurse? Religions that reject vaccinations reject all medicine.

 

Anyhow, assuming she really DOES have a religious objection, it doesn't keep her from being disqualified from the job. A Muslim can't expect to be kept on as a pet groomer where 90% of the business is grooming dogs because he won't touch dogs, or to be kept on as a checkout clerk if he refuses to check out any pork products.

From what I can see of her photo, she looke to be either Charity, Beachy, or even an offchance of being a Wenger. Many of them do have religious objections. And, no, rejection of vaccinations is not rejection of all medicine. That would be like saying someone who choses not to receive this or that kind of medical care rejects all medical care.

[TranquilMind]

'Mrs Mungo:

Except, you are not protected forever. The chicken pod virus can come back to haunt you in the form of shingles when you are older. People who have had the vaccine and get boosters should never get shingles.

You are indeed protected for life from chicken pox. (I know that "chicken pod" is a typo, but it was kind of funny, by the way;))

 

And as to whether the vaccine will indeed make any dent whatsoever on shingles, well, the jury is still out about that. We will have to wait and see, not only about that, but about whether it triggered worse problems. Talk to me in 30 years.

 

To me, most of this thread is way off topic. Can employers insist that employees receive certain vaccines, drug tests, etc? Yes, end of story.

 

I disagree that you leave your civil rights at the door of the employer, especially when said right has absolutely no affect on your job skills and ability.

[Lolly]

 

If it's a religious claim.....what is she doing working as a nurse? Religions that reject vaccinations reject all medicine.

 

Anyhow, assuming she really DOES have a religious objection, it doesn't keep her from being disqualified from the job. A Muslim can't expect to be kept on as a pet groomer where 90% of the business is grooming dogs because he won't touch dogs, or to be kept on as a checkout clerk if he refuses to check out any pork products.

 

No, they do not.

 

 

Except, you are not protected forever. The chicken pod virus can come back to haunt you in the form of shingles when you are older. People who have had the vaccine and get boosters should never get shingles.

 

To me, most of this thread is way off topic. Can employers insist that employees receive certain vaccines, drug tests, etc? Yes, end of story.

 

And yet they still do get shingles...

[FaithManor]

No, they do not.

 

 

 

 

And yet they still do get shingles...

 

Yes, they do. My niece, a fully vaccinated child and on the schedule - her mother was very strict about this - just had them at the age of 22 and IN COLLEGE. It was NOT fun. It was a very bad case, much pain. She ended upat a specialist and he says he sees this frequently. It is no guarantee. Some people just do not build titers easily.

 

Faith

[Trish]

I think firing someone for refusing a vaccine that is only 59% effective is ridiculous. I don't know if I would agree with firing someone even if the vaccine was 95% effective, but at least there would be an argument in my mind. This year I would take the nurse wearing a face mask over the nurse with the flu shot any day.

 

If the flu shot is only 59 percent effective, shouldn't EVERYONE who has patient contact be masking during flu season? No one who got the shot can be sure they won't get it or aren't carrying it.

 

And that's aside from the fact that the CURRENT flu sweeping the nation is not one that this year's shot protects against.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

You are indeed protected for life from chicken pox. (I know that "chicken pod" is a typo, but it was kind of funny, by the way;))

 

It is the blasted autocorrect on my iPhone "correcting" words that are already correct!!

 

I disagree that you leave your civil rights at the door of the employer, especially when said right has absolutely no affect on your job skills and ability.

 

Agree and disagree. I agree that you don't leave your civil rights at the door. However, employers certainly can and do require many things that people may find objectionable. For example, soldiers have to take anti-malarial meds while in certain regions. They often have terrible side effects. One could argue that not taking the meds has nothing to do with their job. But, it does because the last thing the army needs is to be fighting a malaria epidemic instead of the enemy.

 

A hospital needs the majority of its staff to be well during flu season. This keeps patients from getting sick (especially the medically fragile) and keeps the hospital staffed. Even if some of the people get the flu anyway, they will likely have more people well than sick this way.

[FaithManor]

MRSA is the big killer. Any hospital with a policy that indicates - if you have the flu shot, you don't have to wear a mask, but if you do, then no mask required - should be avoided as perveyors of the plague. Possibly the hospital administrator ought to actually take a some classes in how germs are spread.

 

I don't know when this nation reversed to the Dark Ages in it's response to infectious disease, but the number one mode of transmission is lack of sanitary protocol. There aren't any circumstances in which a hospitalized person should have people coming and going from the room who aren't gloved and masked. As a visitor, I've donned gloves and mask myself. Every single employee, every single day, when he/she comes to work needs to do a sterile wash just like they are going into the O.R. Every one of them. After that, every time they go into a patient room it's wash, wash, wash and then glove, and then mask. I don't care if you work in the basement, in some closet, doing computer work...you wash. You leave your station, you wash. You go to lunch, you wash. You bop into the patient's room to harass them about their crappy insurance, you wash, glove, and mask. You don't hand them a pen to sign squat diddly with your ungloved hand. You don't come to tell them they ought to do sit-ups at home without your mask and gloves and especially when you've recently been in another patient's room. Touch a patient or their stuff, don't touch another person or any equipment til you wash. If you don't like it, go work in a different profession. Personally, I think the visitors should just about be bleached before they enter a room. I shudder to think about the transmission rates there. The more strict the protocol, the more lives saved. Simple science.

 

Yeah, I know...it feels impersonal to talk with people whose faces you can't see. Well, I'm telling you, that's a lot better than losing your leg, your arm, your life to MRSA. It's a lot better than getting colds, flu, tonsilitis, bronchitis, etc. from the very people taking care of you after your gall bladder surgery, or your baby is born. It's the only defense against a number of communicable diseases in which the carrier is contagious BEFORE symptoms present themselves.

 

I am appalled that any hospital would have a policy that if you are fully vaccinated you don't have to follow these protocols. Seriously, that IS so short-sighted and dangerous that the place should be shut down until an administration with a brain can be found to run the outfit.

 

Faith

[Mrs Mungo]

And that's aside from the fact that the CURRENT flu sweeping the nation is not one that this year's shot protects against.

 

Source?

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/1742225

The flu strains circulating in the United States this year, especially the N3N2 strain, tend to cause more severe disease as well, he said. The good news is that this year's flu vaccine is a 90% match for the circulating strains.

 

We were all vaccinated (the shot, not mist), our area is flu-riddled, we have even traveled in touristy areas and no flu for us.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I am appalled that any hospital would have a policy that if you are fully vaccinated you don't have to follow these protocols. Seriously, that IS so short-sighted and dangerous that the place should be shut down until an administration with a brain can be found to run the outfit.

 

Can you cite where hospitals exempt employees from hand washing if they are fully vaccinated? Thanks.

[KarenC]

_{Although I feel for the families affected by low immunity issues, I do not agree that the hospital in question was smart at all. Masks during flu season and responsible hand washing are much more effective. The flu shot is a guess that is often short or wrong altogether, and many people are allergic to it. This one nurse was fired, but maybe her coworker was not because she had an allergy excuse... so are the patients truly safe now?}

 

My family does not get the flu shot. During my early adult years I got very severe flu, enough to be hospitalized once, only the years I got the shot. The years I did not get it, I either didn't get sick at all or only got a mild case. Not one doctor has been able to give me a reasonable answer to explain my experience. So, we do not participate. Also, I have 38 students in my 2nd grade classroom. More than half were out over a three week period due to the flu, and every single one of those students out had received the flu shot. A few of the students who did not get sick at all had not received the flu shot.

 

 

Wait a minute. You have 38 students in a 2nd grade classroom? Good grief!

 

Karen

[mytwomonkeys]

Absolutely agree!!!!

MRSA is the big killer. Any hospital with a policy that indicates - if you have the flu shot, you don't have to wear a mask, but if you do, then no mask required - should be avoided as perveyors of the plague. Possibly the hospital administrator ought to actually take a some classes in how germs are spread.

 

I don't know when this nation reversed to the Dark Ages in it's response to infectious disease, but the number one mode of transmission is lack of sanitary protocol. There aren't any circumstances in which a hospitalized person should have people coming and going from the room who aren't gloved and masked. As a visitor, I've donned gloves and mask myself. Every single employee, every single day, when he/she comes to work needs to do a sterile wash just like they are going into the O.R. Every one of them. After that, every time they go into a patient room it's wash, wash, wash and then glove, and then mask. I don't care if you work in the basement, in some closet, doing computer work...you wash. You leave your station, you wash. You go to lunch, you wash. You bop into the patient's room to harass them about their crappy insurance, you wash, glove, and mask. You don't hand them a pen to sign squat diddly with your ungloved hand. You don't come to tell them they ought to do sit-ups at home without your mask and gloves and especially when you've recently been in another patient's room. Touch a patient or their stuff, don't touch another person or any equipment til you wash. If you don't like it, go work in a different profession. Personally, I think the visitors should just about be bleached before they enter a room. I shudder to think about the transmission rates there. The more strict the protocol, the more lives saved. Simple science.

 

Yeah, I know...it feels impersonal to talk with people whose faces you can't see. Well, I'm telling you, that's a lot better than losing your leg, your arm, your life to MRSA. It's a lot better than getting colds, flu, tonsilitis, bronchitis, etc. from the very people taking care of you after your gall bladder surgery, or your baby is born. It's the only defense against a number of communicable diseases in which the carrier is contagious BEFORE symptoms present themselves.

 

I am appalled that any hospital would have a policy that if you are fully vaccinated you don't have to follow these protocols. Seriously, that IS so short-sighted and dangerous that the place should be shut down until an administration with a brain can be found to run the outfit.

 

Faith

 

[TranquilMind]

'Mrs Mungo':

It is the blasted autocorrect on my iPhone "correcting" words that are already correct!!

 

I figured as much. I got one last year and it corrects to some amazing things. I can't do forums on the phone though. Not enough patience.

 

 

 

Agree and disagree. I agree that you don't leave your civil rights at the door. However, employers certainly can and do require many things that people may find objectionable. For example, soldiers have to take anti-malarial meds while in certain regions. They often have terrible side effects. One could argue that not taking the meds has nothing to do with their job. But, it does because the last thing the army needs is to be fighting a malaria epidemic instead of the enemy.

But the military is an autocracy comparable to nothing in the private sector, as we all know.

 

A hospital needs the majority of its staff to be well during flu season. This keeps patients from getting sick (especially the medically fragile) and keeps the hospital staffed. Even if some of the people get the flu anyway, they will likely have more people well than sick this way.

 

That's an assumption that I think is unprovable.

[TranquilMind]

 

Can you cite where hospitals exempt employees from hand washing if they are fully vaccinated? Thanks.

 

They don't, officially. But if nothing is done about it and it happens constantly, that's the same thing as an unofficial "exemption".

 

Have you been in a hospital lately?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

They don't, officially. But if nothing is done about it and it happens constantly, that's the same thing as an unofficial "exemption".

 

Nonsense. You are claiming there are different sanitary standards based on whether or not someone has had the flu vaccination. Other than the mask provision in some hospitals, that is simply not the case.

 

Have you been in a hospital lately?

 

Yes. And?

[Girl Power]

MRSA is the big killer. Any hospital with a policy that indicates - if you have the flu shot, you don't have to wear a mask, but if you do, then no mask required - should be avoided as perveyors of the plague. Possibly the hospital administrator ought to actually take a some classes in how germs are spread.

 

I don't know when this nation reversed to the Dark Ages in it's response to infectious disease, but the number one mode of transmission is lack of sanitary protocol. There aren't any circumstances in which a hospitalized person should have people coming and going from the room who aren't gloved and masked. As a visitor, I've donned gloves and mask myself. Every single employee, every single day, when he/she comes to work needs to do a sterile wash just like they are going into the O.R. Every one of them. After that, every time they go into a patient room it's wash, wash, wash and then glove, and then mask. I don't care if you work in the basement, in some closet, doing computer work...you wash. You leave your station, you wash. You go to lunch, you wash. You bop into the patient's room to harass them about their crappy insurance, you wash, glove, and mask. You don't hand them a pen to sign squat diddly with your ungloved hand. You don't come to tell them they ought to do sit-ups at home without your mask and gloves and especially when you've recently been in another patient's room. Touch a patient or their stuff, don't touch another person or any equipment til you wash. If you don't like it, go work in a different profession. Personally, I think the visitors should just about be bleached before they enter a room. I shudder to think about the transmission rates there. The more strict the protocol, the more lives saved. Simple science.

 

Yeah, I know...it feels impersonal to talk with people whose faces you can't see. Well, I'm telling you, that's a lot better than losing your leg, your arm, your life to MRSA. It's a lot better than getting colds, flu, tonsilitis, bronchitis, etc. from the very people taking care of you after your gall bladder surgery, or your baby is born. It's the only defense against a number of communicable diseases in which the carrier is contagious BEFORE symptoms present themselves.

 

I am appalled that any hospital would have a policy that if you are fully vaccinated you don't have to follow these protocols. Seriously, that IS so short-sighted and dangerous that the place should be shut down until an administration with a brain can be found to run the outfit.

 

Faith

 

 

The CDC sets common sense guidelines for preventing transmission of microorganisms in the hospital. All hospitals follow the same basic guidelines, which are simply: (1) standard precautions which include hand washing and protective equipment including gloves, gown and mask when contact with bodily fluids is anticipated. (2) transmission based precautions, used for additional protection based on type of infection, i.e., airborn, droplet, or contact. MRSA patients are on full precaution, so staff is gowned, gloved, and masked before entering the room.

 

You seem to have a poor view of hospitals, but I assure you as a nurse we DO wash before and after (or use hand sanitizer, which is inside and outside of every patient room). We DO use gloves anytime we are TOUCHING the patient or risk coming in contact with fluid. In no hospital will you find staff wearing masks as a STANDARD precaution. If caring for an influenza patient, you will follow standard and airborne precautions FOR THAT PATIENT. Logically, if using precautions properly, the use of a mask, gown, and gloves for that patient will prevent you from infecting another patient. That is why the CDC recommends these precautions.

 

I agree with Mrs. Mungo, however. This is all a moot point, as the point is whether the hospital can require the vaccine. It can. All the rest is of this discussion is peripheral to that issue.

 

Beck

[Girl Power]

 

They don't, officially. But if nothing is done about it and it happens constantly, that's the same thing as an unofficial "exemption".

 

Have you been in a hospital lately?

 

 

Again, this is nonsense. Go to the CDC website. Educate yourself on universal precautions used across all healthcare settings. There are STANDARD precautions used by ALL STAFF, regardless of vaccination status.

 

beck

[FaithManor]

Beckett, you probably do wash. I am sure you follow protocols. I wish this were true across the board. After my mother's recent two surgeries, in two different hospitals, a trip to the ER with my dd's fiance in which the nurse came to start an IV and was COUGHING ALL OVER HIM (admitted to Bronchitis) at which point my dd, a medic, told her to leave, wash, and mask up or send another nurse, and the doc came in with infant spit-up clearly down his lab coat and partly on his scrub top, nope....I'm not having a very high regard for CDC protocols actually being enforced. The nurse that attended my mother four hrs. after her surgery admitted to having the stomach bug...she'd been vomitting all day but she'd used her sick days already and didn't want to use a vacation day because she was saving it for a cruise! I just about lost my mind on her. The next nurse was a peach though. She took wonderful care of mom and she worked gloved all the time and donned a mask if she had to really get in close.

 

The social worker that came to visit my grandfather after his open heart surgery told us she'd been diagnosed with pneumonia the day before. We could hear her coughing all up and down the hall. No mask for her. No gloves for her. Didn't wash her hands before or after. No sick day for her. She just walked in like Typhoid Mary.

 

I've seen too much to be naive enough to believe that protocols are enforced. I think there is an honor system and unless co-workers report on co-workers, whatever happens happens. Certainly not everyone feels that way at all because MRSA and the like would be a catastrophic epidemic at this time. However, it doesn't change the fact that "mask optional" as a policy is a very, very bad idea. At the least, gloves, gloves, gloves, gloves. During my mother's first hospitalization medical personnel and or support staff came into the room 9 times without gloves and the non-gloved individuals were not rubbing hand sanitizer on their hands nor did they head to the bathroom to wash. She had physical therapists touching her, housekeeping emptying the trash and scurrying about touching all manner of things, her meals were delivered by people with no gloves, GACK! I kept thinking, "I wonder what limb she's going to end up having amputated first!" That's where my brain went. I did file a formal complaint and suggested they force glove use and make the sick people stay home. Don't start me on visitors. There ought to be some sort of "stop by this desk, get your lymph nodes checked, temperature taken, tonsils consulted, and grab your gloves and mask" where nurses can turn visitors away before ever reaching the room. There are so many instances of people bringing their sick kids to see relatives that a hospital, one hour from my home, just announced that no visitors under 14 will be allowed, no exceptions. Kudos for them for putting their foot down. But, that same hospital is very well known for pressuring staff to NOT take sick days. So, it's a total double standard.

 

We did better during her knee surgery. Only three people tried to come into the room to check her vitals, clean something, move something, whatever, without gloves.

 

As for the local ER, I think that nurse is pretty miffed with dd. Honestly, what was she thinking coughing all over her patient. Stay home! At the very, very least, put a mask on.

 

The pediatrician we fired a couple of years ago NEVER gloved and never masked. Kids coughing, hacking, crying, vomitting, all up and down his hallways and he never put on a pair of gloves or a mask and he always wore a tie with no tietack. I always made him take the tie off. I have no patience for it. Lean over the kids to exam, kids cough on tie, baby grabs tie, aby sticks tie in mouth.... go to the next room, tie is a petri dish. He would get very offended when I told him he had to remove his tie and wash his hands again. But, when you hear parents announcing in the hallway that their child has just been diagnosed with pneumonia, croup, strep, staph, tonsilitis....and this dude just waltzes in wearing his petri dish and wanting to examine my child, well, it makes me nauseous thinking about it. Wash, glove, mask up, change your lab coat and scrub top if you've just diagnosed someone with something BAD, take an alcohol prep or an iodine wipe to that darn stethoscope that's been touching people's skins all day, and dog gone it...stay home if you are sick.

 

That's my experience. And as I've said before, my worst beef really isn't with nurses. Most of them are SERIOUS about their protocols. It's the darn docs and the support staff. Seriously, something needs to be done about the myriad of people...billing, admission's paperwork people, the person who comes to your room to get the birth certificate for baby all squared away and she's blowing her nose constanly and leaving the kleenexes on your table or then wants to go see baby, the physical therapist, the social worker with a sinus infection and no mask, etc. These people do not seem to have been trained nor are they held accountable and that's just a tragedy waiting to happen.

 

Faith

[TranquilMind]

Beckett, you probably do wash. I am sure you follow protocols. I wish this were true across the board. After my mother's recent two surgeries, in two different hospitals, a trip to the ER with my dd's fiance in which the nurse came to start an IV and was COUGHING ALL OVER HIM (admitted to Bronchitis) at which point my dd, a medic, told her to leave, wash, and mask up or send another nurse, and the doc came in with infant spit-up clearly down his lab coat and partly on his scrub top, nope....I'm not having a very high regard for CDC protocols actually being enforced. The nurse that attended my mother four hrs. after her surgery admitted to having the stomach bug...she'd been vomitting all day but she'd used her sick days already and didn't want to use a vacation day because she was saving it for a cruise! I just about lost my mind on her. The next nurse was a peach though. She took wonderful care of mom and she worked gloved all the time and donned a mask if she had to really get in close.

 

The social worker that came to visit my grandfather after his open heart surgery told us she'd been diagnosed with pneumonia the day before. We could hear her coughing all up and down the hall. No mask for her. No gloves for her. Didn't wash her hands before or after. No sick day for her. She just walked in like Typhoid Mary.

 

I've seen too much to be naive enough to believe that protocols are enforced. I think there is an honor system and unless co-workers report on co-workers, whatever happens happens. Certainly not everyone feels that way at all because MRSA and the like would be a catastrophic epidemic at this time. However, it doesn't change the fact that "mask optional" as a policy is a very, very bad idea. At the least, gloves, gloves, gloves, gloves. During my mother's first hospitalization medical personnel and or support staff came into the room 9 times without gloves and the non-gloved individuals were not rubbing hand sanitizer on their hands nor did they head to the bathroom to wash. She had physical therapists touching her, housekeeping emptying the trash and scurrying about touching all manner of things, her meals were delivered by people with no gloves, GACK! I kept thinking, "I wonder what limb she's going to end up having amputated first!" That's where my brain went. I did file a formal complaint and suggested they force glove use and make the sick people stay home. Don't start me on visitors. There ought to be some sort of "stop by this desk, get your lymph nodes checked, temperature taken, tonsils consulted, and grab your gloves and mask" where nurses can turn visitors away before ever reaching the room. There are so many instances of people bringing their sick kids to see relatives that a hospital, one hour from my home, just announced that no visitors under 14 will be allowed, no exceptions. Kudos for them for putting their foot down. But, that same hospital is very well known for pressuring staff to NOT take sick days. So, it's a total double standard.

 

We did better during her knee surgery. Only three people tried to come into the room to check her vitals, clean something, move something, whatever, without gloves.

 

As for the local ER, I think that nurse is pretty miffed with dd. Honestly, what was she thinking coughing all over her patient. Stay home! At the very, very least, put a mask on.

 

The pediatrician we fired a couple of years ago NEVER gloved and never masked. Kids coughing, hacking, crying, vomitting, all up and down his hallways and he never put on a pair of gloves or a mask and he always wore a tie with no tietack. I always made him take the tie off. I have no patience for it. Lean over the kids to exam, kids cough on tie, baby grabs tie, aby sticks tie in mouth.... go to the next room, tie is a petri dish. He would get very offended when I told him he had to remove his tie and wash his hands again. But, when you hear parents announcing in the hallway that their child has just been diagnosed with pneumonia, croup, strep, staph, tonsilitis....and this dude just waltzes in wearing his petri dish and wanting to examine my child, well, it makes me nauseous thinking about it. Wash, glove, mask up, change your lab coat and scrub top if you've just diagnosed someone with something BAD, take an alcohol prep or an iodine wipe to that darn stethoscope that's been touching people's skins all day, and dog gone it...stay home if you are sick.

 

That's my experience. And as I've said before, my worst beef really isn't with nurses. Most of them are SERIOUS about their protocols. It's the darn docs and the support staff. Seriously, something needs to be done about the myriad of people...billing, admission's paperwork people, the person who comes to your room to get the birth certificate for baby all squared away and she's blowing her nose constanly and leaving the kleenexes on your table or then wants to go see baby, the physical therapist, the social worker with a sinus infection and no mask, etc. These people do not seem to have been trained nor are they held accountable and that's just a tragedy waiting to happen.

 

Faith

 

 

Um, yeah. Much of what you said has been the experience of many of us.

[smalltown mom]

If the flu vaccine had a decent track record of actually preventing the flu, then I would have a little more support for this policy. But, the vaccine is formulated, not on exact science, but on educated guesses, guesses that are more often wrong than right. My mom used to get a flu shot. Every year she got the shot, she ended up on the hospital with "flu-like symptoms" that they refused to call the flu, but still treated her as quaranteened. Then, she would cycle in an out of the hospital with nosocomial infections - most often c. diff. Her bouts with c. diff were much more life-threatening than the original "flu" was. Even though all the medical staff went by the party line that all elderly should get flu shots, we convinced her to stop ... she was never hospitalized with the flu after that. I discussed it with my doctor and he agreed with me that it is a crap-shoot on whether or not it will protect against anything and that, although the powers that be insist that people don't get the flu from the vaccine, there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

To say that you should restrict people from working in hospitals who don't have the flu vaccine is ridiculous. It is not a guarantee against transmitting the disease because it is not a guarantee against getting the disease. A bigger problem is health care workers coming to work sick. I can't tell you how many times I had to forbid certain nurses and patient techs from entering my mom's room when they were hacking and coughing. She was the safest when she was in isolation due to the precautions taking by everyone entering the room.

 

 

THANK YOU!!

[Whereneverever]

Going to agree with Faith on the gloves and hand washing. I just had a baby in the hospital and it was staggering how many people didn't wear gloves or wash their hands. During my pregnancy I had a PICC line for hyperemesis and the home health nurse who came one time to do the sterile dressing change opened the kit and threw out the enclosed mask and stated she never wore them. Ugh. It stinks how assertive you have to be with people over the stuff but the negative consequences of infection are awful, too.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I have to imagine that aside from any actual benenfit to vaccination, heath care workers are required to have them because it is documentable and verifiable proof that the hospital has done due diligence in attempting to protect the health of the patients in the event of a law suit.

 

Unfortunately not all heath care workers are willing to follow precautions, even in serious and highly transmitable disease situations. For example, at university I had the measles. We had two isolation in-patients at the time-me and the other with chicken pox. The staff were supposed to use masks, gloves, never treat both of us during a shift, etc. Well, plenty of those folks refused to believe that I had never had the chicken pox (that was clearly impossible in the days before the vaccine) and even questioned if I actually had the measeles. There was 48-72 hours where all the tests were out and full precautions were mandatory to protect both of us who were already ill and to prevent a campus wide epidemic of either disease. Most of the staff "knew better" and risked their, their patients and the health of the campus in general. Complaining or reminding went no where.

 

If that is how heath care workers are willing to behave then I can understand why an employer such as a hospital wants documentation as to how a worker is attempting to prevent the spread of flu. A vaccine is undeniable proof of that attempt.

 

And yes, I know there are many wonderful, caring, concientious health care workers who go above and beyond what is required. I'm just not sure they are the ones the hospitals lawyers are planning for.