Help me think this through - mouthy 3 year old

[AimeeM]

Nico is 3.5 years old. He is, on the whole, a wonderful child - enthusiastic, intelligent, compassionate, and a happy helper.

He had a rough start at life and he's had an incredibly rough last 2 years (specifically). At 18 months old we received the good news that the hole in his heart had closed - unfortunately it was also revealed that he had a lung defect and several vascular issues that needed to be fixed immediately. During the lobectomy to remove part of one lung and fix the vascular problems, abnormal masses were found. Two years later, he appears to be doing very well, but we were instructed to be very cautious about exposure and that (because of the surgery specifically) all activities needed to be cleared first. He meets with his vascular and pulm team for testing and x-rays (he's actually due for a check up last week...).

 

All that to say this - a more mouthy child I've never met. When I express any frustration about this, to other moms or to my family, I'm met with "well, given what he's been through..." or "compared to other children, he's really very well behaved". The second ("compared to other children...") I will verify as true given what I've seen in our co-op or other outings. He doesn't hit, bite, or throw things at people, like most of the children in our groups that I've seen; unlike the other boys, he finds no joy in throwing mulch at little girls, smacking other children, or stealing snacks from the others. That said, he isn't physically aggressive towards others - but he's got a mouth on him. Tonight alone I've been told (by him) to "go away", that I'm "disgusting" (new word from him - he's only just realized that the word can be applied to people the same way it's applied to, say, food), and just the general attitude he has of demanding things from me (time or that I go do/get something for him - not demanding material things be purchased for him - "get apple juice for me!", "clean that up Mom Mom!".).

 

Okay - we've spoiled him. I can't justify it, but I can offer an excuse. When things are so touch and go for so long and you deal with the idea of losing a child, there seems to be little else to do but dote, at least in our case. Even now we tend to spoil... our way, I guess, to make up to him what he can't do. It's heartbreaking to watch him look longingly outside the car as we pass a local preschool, watching the other children play on the playground and hear him say "Mom, I can play swing and slides? Please Mom Mom?". He can't. It's flu season and too cold outside to play for long. We've had to opt out of co-op for the last month because the parish where it's held has had several outbreaks. When his cousins talk about t-ball, he wants it so badly... but he hasn't been cleared for it yet. He's so small for his age (barely 25 lbs and short to boot) that he can't meet height requirements at the fairs to ride even the toddler rides like the choo choo train. He never throws a tantrum; he just sobs quietly in my arms. If he threw a tantrum, I think I could discipline that - it's the quiet resignment and devastation he appears to feel over it that I can't seem to handle. So we buy him toys, we shower him with attention, we've rarely told him "no" to things, we excuse the mouthy behaviour... and now he's just a mouthy mess. I'm at my wit's end with him and his MOUTH. He's mean to me primarily. Don't get me wrong - he still loves to cuddle me and is very affectionate, tells me he loves me, etc... but he's also horribly mean sometimes and says things with such venom. I've told him it's mean and he looks at me, confused, and asks "what that mean?". *sigh*

 

I don't know what I'm looking for by writing this. Help, advice, books to read... someone to commiserate with?

 

ETA: we don't spank and we don't wash mouths out. I just though I would mention that because it's the advice I've received on other mom sites about this and it isn't something we're willing to even consider. We've gotten ouselves into this mess and he can't be expected to discipline himself; to inherently know that these things are wrong.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Model what you want him to say and have him repeat it. Every single time. You don't have to make a big deal about it. But you need to be consistent.

[Galatea]

Jean's advice is spot-on. My daughter has a tendency to be mouthy and rude also. She used to demand things frequently, like the "get me apple juice" thing. In that case, I tell her "That is not a nice way to ask. You should say 'Can I have some apple juice please'" and then I expect her to say it to me. Every single time. She still isn't perfect, but all I have to say now is "You need to apologize and ask again nicely" and she does. It takes discipline on your part to demand polite behavior and not to give in until he does it. But it will work.

[happyhomemaker]

Model what you want him to say and have him repeat it. Every single time. You don't have to make a big deal about it. But you need to be consistent.

This. I have a mouthy 2 yr old, and every time she says, "Gimme that!" I say, "May I have that please?" and make her repeat it as best she can before she gets whatever it is. It takes more time to do instead of handing something to her to stop the screaming, but I've seen some progress already. When she says something rude to a family member (including me), I tell her she needs to say something nice to that person. If she doesn't do it or seems like she doesn't know what to say, I model it for her.

[AimeeM]

This is wonderful advice ladies! Thank you so much!

He's only been speaking, really (coherently anyway), for about 6 months, so he's still a bit new to talking in general.

 

Any advice on how to explain (or show) him what "mean" and "nice" is? I know it's a stupid question. I mention frequently when something is "nice" or "mean", but it still seems so abstract to him... as do "bad" and "good"...

[Twigs]

… Any advice on how to explain (or show) him what "mean" and "nice" is? I know it's a stupid question. I mention frequently when something is "nice" or "mean", but it still seems so abstract to him... as do "bad" and "good"...

 

How about a subscription to Highlights magazine for the Goofus and Gallant page?

[Reya]

John Rosemond's stick system. Every infraction is a stick, and after 5 sticks, you're in your room for the rest of the day, except meals.

 

Or simply put him down for a nap because being disrespectful and obnoxious is clearly a sign that he's too tired. EVERY TIME. He'll get sick of the naps after a couple of days.

[thebacabunch]

John Rosemond's stick system. Every infraction is a stick, and after 5 sticks, you're in your room for the rest of the day, except meals.

 

Or simply put him down for a nap because being disrespectful and obnoxious is clearly a sign that he's too tired. EVERY TIME. He'll get sick of the naps after a couple of days.

 

 

A 3 year old in their room all day?

 

Listen, I would probably be in the same boat if I had gone through the same things with my baby. Just model good behavior and have him restate. Also, a good rule of thumb for a time out is a minute per year (age of child).

[Jean in Newcastle]

John Rosemond's stick system. Every infraction is a stick, and after 5 sticks, you're in your room for the rest of the day, except meals.

 

Or simply put him down for a nap because being disrespectful and obnoxious is clearly a sign that he's too tired. EVERY TIME. He'll get sick of the naps after a couple of days.

 

Totally inappropriate for a 3 year old.

[violamama]

We took a "parenting with love & logic" class when our boys were 2 and 4 and I still find myself returning to the book they wrote for teachers. I highly recommend it.

 

Our 4 yob is very verbal, and has always been quite curious about how to surprise people (mostly me) and will try out sass when he can. He's EXTREMELY influenced by things he sees others do/say and has a long memory for drama. This applies to tv as well as real life, so we're pretty careful to either limit what he sees or to constantly provide commentary by pausing and pointing out selfishness or mean behavior. It's all OVER in "children's programming" and what the kids that age remember is the behavior, not the resolution at the end of the 30 minute show. So it helps with our particular boy to really censor what he's seeing at his age. Just sharing our experience, not meaning to say this specifically is going on for your little guy.

 

Sometimes I'll say, "I love you too much to let you talk that way," and calmly give him a non-dramatic consequence (like a minute sitting on the rug by our door or the loss of some privilege). We have him repeat things with a better inflection, or I just say, "I'm sorry, I can't understand you when you use that voice/those words. Would you like to try again?"

 

You have my empathy, that's for sure! It will be worth the thousand corrections, it gets better. Phases testing/developing independence are tough.

[happi duck]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[violamama]

Nico is 3.5 years old. He is, on the whole, a wonderful child - enthusiastic, intelligent, compassionate, and a happy helper.

He can't. It's flu season and too cold outside to play for long. We've had to opt out of co-op for the last month because the parish where it's held has had several outbreaks. When his cousins talk about t-ball, he wants it so badly... but he hasn't been cleared for it yet. He's so small for his age (barely 25 lbs and short to boot) that he can't meet height requirements at the fairs to ride even the toddler rides like the choo choo train. He never throws a tantrum; he just sobs quietly in my arms. If he threw a tantrum, I think I could discipline that - it's the quiet resignment and devastation he appears to feel over it that I can't seem to handle. So we buy him toys, we shower him with attention, we've rarely told him "no" to things, we excuse the mouthy behaviour... and now he's just a mouthy mess. I'm at my wit's end with him and his MOUTH. He's mean to me primarily. Don't get me wrong - he still loves to cuddle me and is very affectionate, tells me he loves me, etc... but he's also horribly mean sometimes and says things with such venom. I've told him it's mean and he looks at me, confused, and asks "what that mean?". *sigh*

 

I don't know what I'm looking for by writing this. Help, advice, books to read... someone to commiserate with?

 

ETA: we don't spank and we don't wash mouths out. I just though I would mention that because it's the advice I've received on other mom sites about this and it isn't something we're willing to even consider. We've gotten ouselves into this mess and he can't be expected to discipline himself; to inherently know that these things are wrong.

 

PS...

I wonder if he's not going to you with all of this because he has a lot of frustration to express. (Duh, that seems to be what you're telling us- I should read the OP more closely!) It's one of those compliments that doesn't always bring out the joy in parenting, kwim?

 

Can you do something as a substitute for the sports and stuff? Maybe get some really cool messy art projects? A preschool music kit (basically stuff you bang on to make noise)? I'm trying to think of things he can DO that take effort and could get out some of his expressiveness. Maybe add a very cuddly extra long story time each day and choose moralistic books that describe good behavior and kindness?

 

And no, not only does all that harsh physical stuff seem silly in this situation, for our own drama boy it totally backfires and teaches him nothing. Helping your kid understand he CAN come to you with frustration is tough when he doesn't yet know how to express that appropriately.

[AimeeM]

John Rosemond's stick system. Every infraction is a stick, and after 5 sticks, you're in your room for the rest of the day, except meals.

 

Or simply put him down for a nap because being disrespectful and obnoxious is clearly a sign that he's too tired. EVERY TIME. He'll get sick of the naps after a couple of days.

 

 

I appreciate the advice but I should have been more clear - we're more of a positive discipline kind of family. I'm not keen on punishing a child for a mess I created. KWIM? I can't imagine putting him in his room all day - I would have no way of modeling appropriate behaviour.

[AimeeM]

How about a subscription to Highlights magazine for the Goofus and Gallant page?

 

It's been so long since I've had a little that Highlights completely slipped my mind! Great idea! Thanks! He would love to get something in the mail too!

[AimeeM]

PS...

I wonder if he's not going to you with all of this because he has a lot of frustration to express. (Duh, that seems to be what you're telling us- I should read the OP more closely!) It's one of those compliments that doesn't always bring out the joy in parenting, kwim?

 

Can you do something as a substitute for the sports and stuff? Maybe get some really cool messy art projects? A preschool music kit (basically stuff you bang on to make noise)? I'm trying to think of things he can DO that take effort and could get out some of his expressiveness. Maybe add a very cuddly extra long story time each day and choose moralistic books that describe good behavior and kindness?

 

And no, not only does all that harsh physical stuff seem silly in this situation, for our own drama boy it totally backfires and teaches him nothing. Helping your kid understand he CAN come to you with frustration is tough when he doesn't yet know how to express that appropriately.

Oh I'm sure he is frustrated. More than that, he's sad and he's angry with us (he doesn't understand *why* he can't do these things, only that Mom and Dad say "no"). Add to that his speech delay... well, you get where I'm going.

He isn't a fan of messy, but I do try to substitute with things he can do. Short walks in the neighborhood to see and socialize with neighbors (who are aware of his medical problems and quick to tell us if we need to steer clear) and thier pets, books and white board activities... and while I know it isn't popular, he has his own tablet. Frankly, while I know it could be contributing to his sass and mouthy-ness, it's done WONDERS for his speech development in general, since he isn't always or with any consistency around other children his age. We play candy land and have "angry bird fights" with his stuffed angry birds, we play hide and seek in the house, his big sister dotes on him and lets him join in brushing her doll's hair and when everyone is feeling fine, he LOVES going to co-op. I'm running out of ideas to "make up" for what he can't do really. I've flirted with the idea of asking the doctor to clear him for a low key dance class at my dd's ballet studio. Problem? He'd be the only boy and, from what I understand, it is geared towards girls, princesses, and that kind of stuff (things that don't really interest him).

[6wildhorses]

I have used a penny jar with great success. I put a jar on the counter and when my child said something extra nice s/he got a penny in the jar. When something bad was said, a penny was taken away. When a certain amount of pennies was reached a prize was won. One time I bought a small stuffed animal and put it in the jar. When something bad was said the animal hid upside down in the jar. The animal was also the prize. I usually only have to have the jar out for a few weeks and then the habit is broken. When the bad habit comes back the jar comes back. It's really made a difference for us.

[Kirch]

This is wonderful advice ladies! Thank you so much!

He's only been speaking, really (coherently anyway), for about 6 months, so he's still a bit new to talking in general.

 

Any advice on how to explain (or show) him what "mean" and "nice" is? I know it's a stupid question. I mention frequently when something is "nice" or "mean", but it still seems so abstract to him... as do "bad" and "good"...

 

"Disgusting" is an abstraction & he seems to have that one down, so it's probably more of a repetition & exposure thing. Three year olds don't generally learn well from explanations--they learn by experience and example. Instead of saying, "that was mean," try verbalizing how it affects you--say, "That made mommy feel sad." Then you can follow up with explaining that it was mean, or emphasizing that we don't say things like that, or whatever is appropriate in the situation. Also take every opportunity to point out mean things that impact him and how they make him feel.

[AimeeM]

"Disgusting" is an abstraction & he seems to have that one down, so it's probably more of a repetition & exposure thing. Three year olds don't generally learn well from explanations--they learn by experience and example. Instead of saying, "that was mean," try verbalizing how it affects you--say, "That made mommy feel sad." Then you can follow up with explaining that it was mean, or emphasizing that we don't say things like that, or whatever is appropriate in the situation. Also take every opportunity to point out mean things that impact him and how they make him feel.

Small, slightly funny breakthrough since I wrote this. Nico woke up to ask for juice. He asked nicely and received his juice then started playing (we're out of town for the holidays). I told him (in an edgy tone, I'll admit) that it was time to go to sleep and stop playing. As I left the bedroom he yelled after me "you're MEAN mom". So apparently, he's catching on... lol.

[Tammyla]

Nodding my head in agreement with Jean. :grouphug:

[AimeeM]

Model what you want him to say and have him repeat it. Every single time. You don't have to make a big deal about it. But you need to be consistent.

I do try to do this as much as possible.

So the question... when he refuses to repeat it? He hasn't yet but he strikes me as a personality that enjoys making Mom go nutso...

[Murphy101]

I say that is "hateful" or "not nice" and I say it often. When watching a tv show, or reading a book or other situations..

 

I tell my 3yo to ready it nicely.

 

If she's just being turdy ;), I make her sit in time out until she is ready to be nice again. No set time or whatever, but she can't leave the chair while screaming, crying, or talking not nice.

 

Don't beat yourself up about it. Much of it really is just being 3 years old.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do try to do this as much as possible.

So the question... when he refuses to repeat it? He hasn't yet but he strikes me as a personality that enjoys making Mom go nutso...

 

Then you do what you do for defiance. For a 3 year old, that would be 3 min. in a time out spot or something of that sort.

[violamama]

My boy has always turned around behavior (well, most of the time, anyway) when I give him a job to do. "I have a really big job for you, but you'll have to speak to me nicely now. It would be sad to have to sit on the rug instead." Then I have him push the vacuum or carry something to another room or whatever. Gives him the power to let go of the battle.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Around here, we have "do-overs" sometimes. Meaning I halt what I'm doing, and say, "I don't like the way you're speaking to me. Is there a nicer way to say that?" It seems to sort of reset the situation. Nobody gets in trouble or is punished, but the message is clear that we need to speak kindly.

 

And I agree with Martha that much of this is just typical 3-year-old-ness :D

[DianeW88]

Well, personally, I think 3 1/2 is the worst age on the planet, trumping even the teen years, so most of his problem is due to being 3. *shudder* However, this book really helped me solve all my kiddos discipline issues in a positive, playful way. We used the lesson, "You are a shining star, but not the center of the universe" with my dd when she was about that age to get over some of her 3 year old issues. It's a great book with "recipes" for all kinds of kid issues, such as responsibility, learning kindness, selfishness, respect, cooperation, conquering fears, etc. It really helped my kids turn out to be wonderful young adults. http://www.amazon.com/Playful-Parenting-Denise-Champman-Weston/dp/0874777348/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356723861&sr=1-5&keywords=playful+parenting

[AimeeM]

Well, personally, I think 3 1/2 is the worst age on the planet, trumping even the teen years, so most of his problem is due to being 3. *shudder* However, this book really helped me solve all my kiddos discipline issues in a positive, playful way. We used the lesson, "You are a shining star, but not the center of the universe" with my dd when she was about that age to get over some of her 3 year old issues. It's a great book with "recipes" for all kinds of kid issues, such as responsibility, learning kindness, selfishness, respect, cooperation, conquering fears, etc. It really helped my kids turn out to be wonderful young adults. http://www.amazon.co...ayful parenting

Yes, I'm starting to wonder what everyone was talking about when they talked about "the terrible two's". Age 2 had nothing on this. Nothing.

That book looks wonderful and is in my cart. I'm going to see if they have it at my Barnes and Noble so I can buy it sooner (and use my discount card, lol).

[AimeeM]

Around here, we have "do-overs" sometimes. Meaning I halt what I'm doing, and say, "I don't like the way you're speaking to me. Is there a nicer way to say that?" It seems to sort of reset the situation. Nobody gets in trouble or is punished, but the message is clear that we need to speak kindly.

 

And I agree with Martha that much of this is just typical 3-year-old-ness :D

Do overs worked beautifully with my oldest. I didn't start with her until around age 6 though and when I've tried it with Nico (the 3 year old) he just looks at me rather confused and says "what you mean Mom?". I'm afraid it just goes over his head right now. Lol.

[Parrothead]

I'd take Jean's advice one step further. Model what you want from him. Don't give in to his demands. Give him the proper words each time and tell him you'll do what he wants when he asks nicely.

[gardenmom5]

okay - he's a mouthy 3yo, and there are adults who are *currently* absolving him of his mouthyness becasue he had a hard start in life. when does the absolution for his mouthiness end?

do you want a mouthy 6yo? 12yo? 18 yo? eventually it isn't "cute" and other adults will lose their tolerance long before you do.

 

if he insists on wording something disrespectfully - time outs can work, and if he was insulting to someone, he needs to apologize.

when he words something disrespectfully when he wants something - turn to him, look him in the eye, and reword it in a more polite tone and word choice. he does NOT get what he wants until he uses the more polite form. and if he has a meltdown because he's not getting what he wants right now - well, those are the breaks. be non-chalant as if it is no skin off your nose - because it isn't. (if you don't want to listen to his meltdown, he can do so in his room and scream all he wants where no one has to listen to him and can come out when he's through.)

 

then when he DOES word things appropriately you can shower attention upon him. (kids learn what gets them attention, so you lavish attention when they do what you want.)

[Galatea]

I do try to do this as much as possible.

So the question... when he refuses to repeat it? He hasn't yet but he strikes me as a personality that enjoys making Mom go nutso...

 

 

If my daughter refuses I send her to her room until she is ready to come out and be nice. I always talk about why she was sent to her room and what she should do. Then I ask her again to repeat the "nice" thing I want her to say. And whatever you do, don't give in if he won't be nice.