Joan in GE Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Have any of your students been like this? and changed? What does it lead to academically? or career-wise? Can it change? Probably she won't like Algebra II - right? What about Trig/Precalc and Calculus? Any advice? I keep reading about students getting to higher math and having weakness that date back to Algebra... Thanks, Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I have heard it frequently that some students prefer geometry over algebra or vice versa. In my DD, it was the other way round; she loved algebra, but disliked certain aspect of geometry. We traced it back to a lack of ability to visualize spatially. I can do fine and enjoy plane geometry, but am hitting real limits when it comes to three dimensional geometry because I simply can not visualize it. In IQ tests and such, visual pattern recognition is my weakest area, too. So, I would suspect that a preference for geometry over algebra may be an expression of strong spatial skills: students who "see" geometrical patterns will like doing geometry, while students who don't may be doing OK, but won't love it. OTOH, a love of algebra tends to go with a preference for algorithms; my DD loves algorithms and orderly procedures for problem solving -whereas for geometry, there are much fewer clear-cut algorithms, and the whole procedure is more creative and relies on inspiration. This said, not liking algebra does not have to mean that the student has to have a weakness; it is quite possible to successfully study a subject one does not like. I would not take a dislike as an excuse for poor performance, or as an indicator for a lack of ability. As for your question about subsequent maths: I would be very careful not to set up any self-fulfilling prophesies. Trigonometry has more to do with geometry than with algebra; so it may be quite possible that she enjoys trig, since the relationships can be based on geometry and can be visualized. And there is quite a bit of geometry in calculus as well. So she might end up liking it. I would also not make any career predictions based on a like for geometry or a dislike for algebra. She may end up in a field where strong visualization is a bonus - but she may also have other strengths and not end up using a lot of math after all. My lack of spatial visualization ability, even though spatial skills are often liked to abstract reasoning, has not prevented me from becoming a theoretical physicist ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GailV Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I loved geometry. 1. It was fun because I'm good at putting shapes together. I grew up doing jigsaw puzzles, and sewing (which, if you think about it, is taking a 2D shape and making it into a 3D shape; I also knit and crochet, which sort of goes from a plain line to 3D). Dh says I should've had a career as a packaging engineer. 2. It was fun because I liked writing the proofs. I'd never had an actual logic course, and I enjoyed the process. My mom thought I should be an attorney. 3. It was fun because I had a crush on one of the boys in it. He was excellent at it, so I decided to impress him by acing the class. Make of that what you will. ^_^ Today he's a professor of Electrical Engineering. I liked Trig, but perhaps that was because I had an amazing teacher. And I liked Algebra 1 and 2 because I liked the nice, neat patterns the formulas made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Don't like Alg. 1: it is highly likely that they will not enjoy Alg 2. Like Geometry: not really any correlation to algebra. Trig and calc: a combination of alg and geom.= pretty much no one will like it! (Just kidding there). A lot of students seem to find that trig and calc make algebra and geometry make more sense. Missing pieces seem to fall into place that make understanding easier. Some just freak out and panic. I don't think a dislike of algebra needs to = a dislike of higher maths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Consider whether she has visual-spatial strengths. Maybe she'll like algebra more later on, as she sees it in a larger context/bigger picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Depends on what she likes about it. If it's the proofs, look into a 'proofier' algebra. If it's the fact that it's more visual, look into visual explanations of algebra concepts. Unfortunately I don't have a textbook recommendation because I make up my own explanations for my visual students. If it's that she's weak in arithmetic(especially fractions) and geometry has less of it, remediate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 I appreciate all your different answers - they each cover different aspects which are helping me (who loved Algebra and disliked Geometry).... Dd recently tested very highly in the Visual-Spatial as well as 'numerical' (not really sure how that translates as it was done in French and the guidance counselor didn't explain really - so I'm presuming mathematical concepts/thinking?).... Lolly - I'm looking forward to getting to trig and calc with her now and 'looking back' with her on algebra and geometry... wapiti - I really like that table comparing the sequential vs spatial learner :-) And kiana you've given good tools to evaluate - I'm going figure this out. regentrude - your examples also give me vision and help me not get locked into one way of thinking about it...I found it so interesting to see that you were weak in visual-spatial yet could do what you are doing....what is the point of doing these tests then if it is really a matter of working on subjects and concepts and studying? If you would have just listened to that test, then what? Gail - my dd got to read yours (and part of regentrude's) right before leaving and said - hey, I like to sew and create (she's made a ton of stuff - her current theme is knitting hats while listening to some podcast :-)) Thank you all! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 ..I found it so interesting to see that you were weak in visual-spatial yet could do what you are doing....what is the point of doing these tests then if it is really a matter of working on subjects and concepts and studying? If you would have just listened to that test, then what? Oh, all the IQ tests have the spatial component with the pattern recognition, as well as verbal parts. I only dabbled in online tests and never got tested by a professional - but my kids did. The composite scores are calculated from several subscores, which also allows the tester to establish a profile for the different fields. The purpose of the tests was to establish eligibility for the gifted program in school, as requested by the school. I personally would not have cared to have them tested. The point is that DD's subscore for the spatial stuff, while still much higher than average, was significantly below her verbal, working memory, and composite scores. So, her test told me that she is extremely gifted with words and very good at spatial reasoning, but nowhere near as exceptional as verbally. I do not consider test like this a good indicator for career choice or academic success - but it helps me to understand why she disliked geometry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Thanks for the answer regentrude - I get it now... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 I always thought it was a right brain v. left brain thing. Angie, Who believes algebra is just a way to kill time till you get to geometry ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 She might just be older. Brain maturation is still going on at that age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugs Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 She might just be older. Brain maturation is still going on at that age. This for me. I didn't get Alg I. Loved Geometry - the proofs were cool to do. Come Algebra II, I took it on purpose over the summer to get into ghe higher level math class the following year. I aced (and understood) Alg II. My kids....jury's out :glare: . We're just slow to mature in this family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy in Richmond Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Hi Joan! My dd is another geometry-loving, highly visual spatial, creative math kid. I actually kept her in algebra one for two years (she did both NEM 1/2 and Jacobs algebra) to solidify skills. But afterwards, she just took off when she hit geometry and higher maths. The one thing that was difficult was how sensitive she was to different textbook styles. With her older brother, I could just pick the text I thought was best for each subject & he'd do it. With her, if the text wasn't visual or inspiring, she hit a roadblock. She loved Gelfand trig (it's very geometrically motivated), all things AoPS, etc, but texts like Foerster sent her running away screaming and pulling her hair out! Doing calculus with her was very interesting, as none of my standard methods (I'd taught calc for several years at university level) worked! I had to reinvent the wheel with her. ^_^ I love the description of your daughter knitting as she listens to podcasts...sounds just like L!! she would knit or make (sometimes mathematically inspired) jewelry while we listened to history lectures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Depends on what she likes about it. If it's the proofs, look into a 'proofier' algebra. If it's the fact that it's more visual, look into visual explanations of algebra concepts. Unfortunately I don't have a textbook recommendation because I make up my own explanations for my visual students. If it's that she's weak in arithmetic(especially fractions) and geometry has less of it, remediate. She says she likes the proofs - so I'm going to look for a proofier algebra as well Consider whether she has visual-spatial strengths. Maybe she'll like algebra more later on, as she sees it in a larger context/bigger picture. Ok - we went through the table together and she's about half and half...She likes Chem for example, is extremely auditory actually, I don't think she's that great at maps - well certainly not like ds3 who we could call our GPS system due to place recognition and innate sense of direction, etc, but she does have the ability to turn around objects.....,....now I don't know what to think.... Who believes algebra is just a way to kill time till you get to geometry ;) LOL, I thought there must be people like that around. She might just be older. Brain maturation is still going on at that age. This for me. I didn't get Alg I. Loved Geometry - the proofs were cool to do. Come Algebra II, I took it on purpose over the summer to get into the higher level math class the following year. I aced (and understood) Alg II. Ok, so maybe there is hope for Alg II.... Thanks all, Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Hi Joan! My dd is another geometry-loving, highly visual spatial, creative math kid. I actually kept her in algebra one for two years (she did both NEM 1/2 and Jacobs algebra) to solidify skills. But afterwards, she just took off when she hit geometry and higher maths. The one thing that was difficult was how sensitive she was to different textbook styles. With her older brother, I could just pick the text I thought was best for each subject & he'd do it. With her, if the text wasn't visual or inspiring, she hit a roadblock. She loved Gelfand trig (it's very geometrically motivated), all things AoPS, etc, but texts like Foerster sent her running away screaming and pulling her hair out! Doing calculus with her was very interesting, as none of my standard methods (I'd taught calc for several years at university level) worked! I had to reinvent the wheel with her. ^_^ I love the description of your daughter knitting as she listens to podcasts...sounds just like L!! she would knit or make (sometimes mathematically inspired) jewelry while we listened to history lectures. Oh good! I'll make sure to involve her then...Was there anything different you did when your daughter started geometry besides involve her with the book selection?...I'll have to look into Gelfand. To tell the truth, I didn't even think of doing AoPS since the second half of Algebra was like pulling teeth....not that she couldn't get the concepts. But we also sidetracked to prep Swiss tests and she is into 'moving' it seems. If she's going slowly for whatever reason, she loses some interest...Maybe I should try to dig deeper about what exactly it was that she didn't like. She'd just announced not liking Algebra as if it was the whole subject... Yes, she's been listening to history and some Am Gov for awhile - anything as an excuse to knit. :-) If I can work some audio temporarily into any subject she's thrilled..... Thanks Kathy! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy in Richmond Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Oh good! I'll make sure to involve her then...Was there anything different you did when your daughter started geometry besides involve her with the book selection?...I'll have to look into Gelfand. To tell the truth, I didn't even think of doing AoPS since the second half of Algebra was like pulling teeth....not that she couldn't get the concepts. But we also sidetracked to prep Swiss tests and she is into 'moving' it seems. If she's going slowly for whatever reason, she loses some interest...Maybe I should try to dig deeper about what exactly it was that she didn't like. She'd just announced not liking Algebra as if it was the whole subject... Yes, she's been listening to history and some Am Gov for awhile - anything as an excuse to knit. :-) If I can work some audio temporarily into any subject she's thrilled..... Thanks Kathy! Joan Dd used Jacobs 2nd edition for geometry (proof heavy). I also added in some challenging visual geometry problems from Singapore's NEM series. This coupled nicely with some problem solving work via MathCounts (you can find some free practice stuff here even if you aren't participating officially) & AoPS volume 1 (the original problem solving series). Canon Press introductory and intermediate logic was a huge hit that same year, & the logical thinking involved worked to reinforce the same reasoning skills needed for geometry proofs. Dd just enjoys thinking about anything she can reason out or visualize much more than doing calculations and algebraic manipulations. And yes she'll use any excuse to do more arts & crafts (still!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 Dd used Jacobs 2nd edition for geometry (proof heavy). I also added in some challenging visual geometry problems from Singapore's NEM series. This coupled nicely with some problem solving work via MathCounts (you can find some free practice stuff here even if you aren't participating officially) & AoPS volume 1 (the original problem solving series). Canon Press introductory and intermediate logic was a huge hit that same year, & the logical thinking involved worked to reinforce the same reasoning skills needed for geometry proofs. Dd just enjoys thinking about anything she can reason out or visualize much more than doing calculations and algebraic manipulations. And yes she'll use any excuse to do more arts & crafts (still!). I'm going to have to analyze her learning style more in relation to the bolded part.....She is quick to pick up concepts and apply logic...We had started to go through Traditional Logic without problem... Ages ago I bought the NEM books when toying with the idea of going the Singapore route for ds....so I'm going to have to look in them.... That's handy that they let you download the Mathcounts Handbook for free - I've just had a look and hopefully it will stimulate her - I'll let you know. :-) And if all these things are up her alley - I'll venture into AoPS land.... Thank you Kathy! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 25, 2013 Author Share Posted September 25, 2013 Hi all who were helping me about this... Just thought I'd report back on this topic now that we're starting Algebra II.... Today dd fairly shouted - "Mom, you didn't tell me there were proofs in Algebra II! It's like seeing 'old friends'!" She was just so happy to find them - and now doesn't have such a negative view... Under breath - I'm so thankful we're using an Algebra II book that involves proofs! (yeah Jane :-)) Happy Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Thanks for the update Joan. Glad the Dolciani is working out for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomOfOneFunOne Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Gail - my dd got to read yours (and part of regentrude's) right before leaving and said - hey, I like to sew and create (she's made a ton of stuff - her current theme is knitting hats while listening to some podcast :-)) Thank you all! Joan AMDG It is crazy how this is such a good description of my daughter. She liked Algebra 1 okay, LOVES Geometry (she has a crush on pi and went to sleep last night listening to pi to 50 digits at librivox), LOVES sewing especially creating her own stuff, and knits while listening to radio shows, librivox, et c. Too bad Geneva is so far away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 This said, not liking algebra does not have to mean that the student has to have a weakness; it is quite possible to successfully study a subject one does not like. I would not take a dislike as an excuse for poor performance, or as an indicator for a lack of ability. I agree. My nephew hated ALL math until he got to college and had to retake calculus. He ended up being a math major, LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 I did well in math, but the only one I really enjoyed was geometry. Same teacher for Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2, so that didn't have anything to do with it. Many of my friends were the opposite. I did well in science (except I hated chemistry), but the only one I really enjoyed was anatomy and physiology. Interesting how the brain works. When I discovered logic in college, I was thrilled! Geometry with words!! (I went to a small town public high school and didn't know you could "study" logic. :001_rolleyes: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantone Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 HA! I enjoyed and understood both Geometry and Physics. It makes perfect sense and I can construct the problems / scenarios in my head with no issues. Algebra was awful. After I got a D in Alg2/Trig, they moved me over to Consumer Math. (Don't bother to teach it differently, just shunt the kid into Remedial classes.) I'm a dyslexic, don't know if that has too much to do with it. But I work visually, and Geometry is very visually-friendly, from my experience. If you want an app that helps with algebraic thinking, look up DragonBox. We have it for iPad. Your "quest" is to isolate a box on one side of the screen, and it unwittingly teaches you the basics of solving some algebra problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 AMDG It is crazy how this is such a good description of my daughter. She liked Algebra 1 okay, LOVES Geometry (she has a crush on pi and went to sleep last night listening to pi to 50 digits at librivox), LOVES sewing especially creating her own stuff, and knits while listening to radio shows, librivox, et c. Too bad Geneva is so far away. Yes! dd doesn't know anyone like that here.... When I discovered logic in college, I was thrilled! Geometry with words!! (I went to a small town public high school and didn't know you could "study" logic. :001_rolleyes: ) see below :-) I enjoyed and understood both Geometry and Physics. It makes perfect sense and I can construct the problems / scenarios in my head with no issues. If you want an app that helps with algebraic thinking, look up DragonBox. We have it for iPad. Your "quest" is to isolate a box on one side of the screen, and it unwittingly teaches you the basics of solving some algebra problems. Just today dd said, while studying physics, "I love physics too, Mom!" it makes sense!. It's logical :-) Joan (have been having black screen issues last two days...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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