Crossing the Tiber - The Master Thread

[Laurie4b]

Actually, abstinence refers to not eating meat. Fasting refers to reducing one's overall food intake (which includes not eating meat!). So there are two days of fasting (Ash Wed. and Good Fri) but every Friday in lent is a day of abstinence. Some people observe this all year round. When I was growing up we would never eat meat on Fridays. Here's a good blog post about the difference and what it means on a deeper theological level. http://newtheologica...asting-and.html

 

Thanks for the link. I appreciate you taking the time to answer me.

 

I will confess that I struggled to understand the article. Most of it is because words are being used in a specific way and related to concepts different (almost opposite) from the way I typically use the words! (For instance, I have to keep undoing in my mind the common usage of the word "abstinence" to mean refraining from something 100% as in, for instance, sex education, where the choices are "abstinence" versus "birth control/ sexual practices that don't lead to conception" or for people who abstain from alcohol, I automatically think zero alcoholic beverages, not "I partake of alcoholic beverages with the exception of __".

 

Protestants I know tend to use the term fasting to mean no food at all except water or sometimes juices. A partial fast is refraining from specific foods or refraining from a quantity of food for the day by refraining from a particular meal . Abstinence could be substituted for the word fasting. So every time I read the words "abstinence" or "fasting", I have to substitute in a definition that is almost the opposite to the one I most often use! :willy_nilly: (This is as close to head spinning as I can find!) So actually, the Protestants I know would label as different forms of "partial fasts" both "abstinence" and " fasting" by the definition in the article . Yikes!

 

I got out of the article that " abstinence: in Catholic parlance is refraining from a particular food (generally meat) and fasting is refraining from a quantity of food. A fast is defined as one large meal and two small ones--did I understand those things correctly?

 

There is something about abstinence being a virtue but not an act/practice and fasting an practice/act but not a virtue, but I didn't understand the point there. :confused:

[Laurie4b]

The 14 stations are always the same but you can have varying prayers to go with each station. In fact when the Pope says the Stations of the Cross in Rome at the Colosseum each year, he writes his own prayers into each station to make them pertinent to current issues. So it is a prayerful combination of very traditional as well as the contemporary. Here is a link to it from last year: http://www.catholict...-the-Cross.aspx

 

That's interesting. I thought we were being peculiarly Protestant when the people setting up the stations wrote out prayers with contemporary applications of each event in the stations of the cross. IOW, I thought we were changing something that was traditional a set prayer for each station , but I guess we were actually keeping with a tradition of crafting a prayer for each station with a contemporary application.

[speedmom4]

My husband and boys are really coming around as far as Catholicism is concerned. The boys are really interested and receptive right now. My husband loves Mass and is interested in learning more. I really think he would convert but there is a stumbling block. He just doesn't know what to think about Mary. He wasn't raised to think of her as anything other than Jesus' mother. He thinks she was probably a pretty nice lady but can't seem to wrap his mind around the Church's teachings. Does anyone have a resource that could help him see the "whys" behind the teachings of Mary? He knows what is taught about Mary but doesn't understand why. He was brought up with "sola scriptura" so much of the doctrine surrounding her is not only foreign but worrisome.

 

Thanks,

Elise in NC

[justamouse]

May I ask a question about fasting during Lent in the Catholic Church? I am a Protestant, but interested in learning about other traditions.

 

One question is about the purpose of the fasting. What is your understanding of what it accomplishes?

 

I know that Fridays are fast days from meat (correct? or is there more to it? ) Are there other fast days before Holy Week?

 

I have a question, too, about the Friday fasts from meat. What is your understanding of why fish is allowed? in keeping with the fast to have a dinner of delicious & expensive scallops or other fish? There isn't any seafood at all where I am that is not at least double the price of the vegetarian fare or the poultry we normally eat, so it seems more like "treat night" to me. How do you view that? I get why eggs are okay and meat is not, but have always wondered about the fish. (When I was a child, I didn't like fish, but I LOVED beef, so it made sense to me then! But now, I LOVE seafood!)

 

I remember being on a lobster boat in Maine, and them telling of the days when lobster was beggar's food. How the lobsters were only eaten by the fishing families because no one else would eat them. So, I think the ideas of eating fish on Fridays is lost to us now.

 

 

My husband and boys are really coming around as far as Catholicism is concerned. The boys are really interested and receptive right now. My husband loves Mass and is interested in learning more. I really think he would convert but there is a stumbling block. He just doesn't know what to think about Mary. He wasn't raised to think of her as anything other than Jesus' mother. He thinks she was probably a pretty nice lady but can't seem to wrap his mind around the Church's teachings. Does anyone have a resource that could help him see the "whys" behind the teachings of Mary? He knows what is taught about Mary but doesn't understand why. He was brought up with "sola scriptura" so much of the doctrine surrounding her is not only foreign but worrisome.

 

Thanks,

Elise in NC

 

Father Longnecker (who went to Bob Jones U, but is now a Catholic Priest)on Mary. Or,

(this one is particularly beautiful).

[speedmom4]

 

 

I remember being on a lobster boat in Maine, and them telling of the days when lobster was beggars food. How the lobsters were only eaten by the fishing families because no one else would eat them. So, I think the ideas of eating fish on Fridays is lost to us now.

 

 

 

 

Father Longnecker (who went to Bob Jones U, but is now a Catholic Priest) on Mary. Or,

(this one is particularly beautiful).

 

This is exactly what I was looking for!

 

Thank you!

 

Elise in NC

[Elinor Everywhere]

The 14 stations are always the same but you can have varying prayers to go with each station. In fact when the Pope says the Stations of the Cross in Rome at the Colosseum each year, he writes his own prayers into each station to make them pertinent to current issues. So it is a prayerful combination of very traditional as well as the contemporary. Here is a link to it from last year: http://www.catholict...-the-Cross.aspx

 

 

Wouldn't it be awesome to be at the Colosseum for that? We were able to see Benedict at the Vatican in 2005, and it was pretty amazing. But to be there for Stations of the Cross, always one of my favorites, would be really incredible!

[ChrisB]

My mom sent me a link to adoptacardinal.org so that our family could pray for our adopted cardinal until the next pope is elected. We decided that each person who was praying age in our house would get their own cardinal. They were all given to us randomly. Would you like to participate too? :001_smile:

 

Here's our line-up:

 

 

DD8: Christoph Schonborn (Austria)

DS7: Theodore-Adrien Sarr (Senegal)

DD7: Angelo Amato (Italy)

DD4: Walter Kasper (Germany)

Me: Tarcisio Bertone (Italy)

DH: Timothy Dolan (USA)

[*Michelle*]

We adopted a cardinal as a family. Ours is Antonio Varela (Spain). We're saying a special prayer for him and the upcoming conclave each night after we do our Family Way of the Cross.

[ElizaG]

If you read the writings of the Church Fathers -- or really any older books on Catholicism -- the reason given from abstaining from meat during penitential times isn't that it was considered "rich people's food." It's that consuming meat was thought to inflame the passions (anger, lust, etc.), and thus make people more subject to concupiscence. This is why many monastics always refrain from meat, and some go so as far as strict vegetarianism. Fish wasn't believed to have this effect -- just flesh meat of warm-blooded creatures.

 

Of course, there's also the significance that the fish is a symbol of Christ.

 

I've also read that the distinction between "fish" and "meat" (i.e, flesh meat) is an inheritance from Judaism. In present-day Jewish practice, fish is considered parve (neither meat nor dairy), and fish blood is considered Kosher. (So is locust blood. :ack2: )

 

It's also interesting that observant Jewish people in our time make a point of eating fish on Friday as part of their Shabbat meal, but I don't know if that's related or not. :)

[justamouse]

If you read the writings of the Church Fathers -- or really any older books on Catholicism -- the reason given from abstaining from meat during penitential times isn't that it was considered "rich people's food." It's that consuming meat was thought to inflame the passions (anger, lust, etc.), and thus make people more subject to concupiscence. This is why many monastics always refrain from meat, and some go so as far as strict vegetarianism. Fish wasn't believed to have this effect -- just flesh meat of warm-blooded creatures.

 

Of course, there's also the significance that the fish is a symbol of Christ.

 

I've also read that the distinction between "fish" and "meat" (i.e, flesh meat) is an inheritance from Judaism. In present-day Jewish practice, fish is considered parve (neither meat nor dairy), and fish blood is considered Kosher. (So is locust blood. :ack2: )

 

It's also interesting that observant Jewish people in our time make a point of eating fish on Friday as part of their Shabbat meal, but I don't know if that's related or not. :)

 

Hey! that is really cool!

[Parrothead]

If you read the writings of the Church Fathers -- or really any older books on Catholicism -- the reason given from abstaining from meat during penitential times isn't that it was considered "rich people's food." It's that consuming meat was thought to inflame the passions (anger, lust, etc.), and thus make people more subject to concupiscence. This is why many monastics always refrain from meat, and some go so as far as strict vegetarianism. Fish wasn't believed to have this effect -- just flesh meat of warm-blooded creatures.

 

Of course, there's also the significance that the fish is a symbol of Christ.

 

I've also read that the distinction between "fish" and "meat" (i.e, flesh meat) is an inheritance from Judaism. In present-day Jewish practice, fish is considered parve (neither meat nor dairy), and fish blood is considered Kosher. (So is locust blood. :ack2: )

 

It's also interesting that observant Jewish people in our time make a point of eating fish on Friday as part of their Shabbat meal, but I don't know if that's related or not. :)

 

Just as an aside, Judaism 101 is my favorite site for learning about Judaism. :coolgleamA:

[VeritasMama]

 

Thanks for the link. I appreciate you taking the time to answer me.

 

I will confess that I struggled to understand the article. Most of it is because words are being used in a specific way and related to concepts different (almost opposite) from the way I typically use the words! (For instance, I have to keep undoing in my mind the common usage of the word "abstinence" to mean refraining from something 100% as in, for instance, sex education, where the choices are "abstinence" versus "birth control/ sexual practices that don't lead to conception" or for people who abstain from alcohol, I automatically think zero alcoholic beverages, not "I partake of alcoholic beverages with the exception of __".

 

Protestants I know tend to use the term fasting to mean no food at all except water or sometimes juices. A partial fast is refraining from specific foods or refraining from a quantity of food for the day by refraining from a particular meal . Abstinence could be substituted for the word fasting. So every time I read the words "abstinence" or "fasting", I have to substitute in a definition that is almost the opposite to the one I most often use! :willy_nilly: (This is as close to head spinning as I can find!) So actually, the Protestants I know would label as different forms of "partial fasts" both "abstinence" and " fasting" by the definition in the article . Yikes!

 

I got out of the article that " abstinence: in Catholic parlance is refraining from a particular food (generally meat) and fasting is refraining from a quantity of food. A fast is defined as one large meal and two small ones--did I understand those things correctly?

 

There is something about abstinence being a virtue but not an act/practice and fasting an practice/act but not a virtue, but I didn't understand the point there. :confused:

 

Abstinence in this sense does mean abstaining from something 100%, even if it is only for a specific period of time. The problem is that we still use traditional terms when our culture and language have changed.

 

In traditional culinary terms, and what you will still see in culinary schools, is that the term "meat" refers to red meat and white meat. Fish is called fish or seafood. Fish was not traditionally called meat. You will still see this in gourmet restaurants, the meat course will usually be a red meat, and the fish course could be any type of seafood.

 

So, abstaining from meat never referred to fish. Fish was poor man's food, meat was once considered a luxury that most poor people could only eat on special occasions. So, on Friday's we abstain from meat in honor of Christ's suffering on Good Friday. We try to eat simple meals, and not have fancy seafood dinners on Friday, because that defeats the purpose.

 

I think today in America, food in general is so plentiful that these type of dietary restrictions don't really have the same impact and meaning that they used to. But, I do remember when I was a girl many Catholics I knew still abstained from meat on every Friday, not just the ones in Lent. If you do it all year, it is much more of a sacrifice.

 

As far as fasting, the requirement of 2 small meals and one larger meal is the bare minimum requirement. Fasting can be as severe as you like, as in only water, or you can do the bare minimum. Fasting is only required on 2 days, but it is a good form of prayer or repentence that one can partake in at any time. There are many examples of people fasting as a form of prayer or repentence in the Bible, and Jesus himself fasted in the desert. It is a very effective spiritual excercise people should do all year, but since Lent is focused on repentence, we make sure that we fast at least twice during this time.

 

HTH!

[*Michelle*]

To further add to the mix, the Church considers any cold-blooded animal as "fish." Turtle, alligator, iguana... all of these are okay for Fridays. In fact, the archbishop of New Orleans recently addressed this in a letter to a parishioner.

[Tita Gidge]

Gift ideas for a 12 year old who will be making FHC next week?

 

His mom is re-verting, and the dad is fairly supportive but not a fan of organized religion.

 

Dad is okay with the one family bible, but sees no point in multiple copies. He won't want any crucifixes, etc. on the walls.

 

The boy could take or leave the whole experience, and is doing this mostly to please his mom. She decided to come back to the church because we kept taking her son with us on Sundays (he spends many weekends overnighting with us) and she began to join us for Mass. He enjoys Mass, and even began to assume he was spending Saturday night with us so he could attend with us. I think his enthusiasm is growing, but as of right now he's not super-into the RCIA and catechism and stuff. He attended with us for about six months before they started the RCIA program.

 

He's not a reader, so I'm not sure books would be a great option.

 

He's asked questions about our scapulars, but I'm not sure he'd wear one. He won't wear a crucifix necklace or saint's necklace, nor would his dad permit.

 

Any ideas? Should I get a book anyhow, maybe on a saint or like those "fun facts for catholic kids" kind of thing, or ...?

 

I'd like to get something that he'd enjoy and/or at least get some use out of. I do plan to include a specific non-religious item he'll love, but still wanted to gift something Catholic-ish as well.

[MyLittleWonders]

Gift ideas for a 12 year old who will be making FHC next week?

 

His mom is re-verting, and the dad is fairly supportive but not a fan of organized religion.

 

Dad is okay with the one family bible, but sees no point in multiple copies. He won't want any crucifixes, etc. on the walls.

 

The boy could take or leave the whole experience, and is doing this mostly to please his mom. She decided to come back to the church because we kept taking her son with us on Sundays (he spends many weekends overnighting with us) and she began to join us for Mass. He enjoys Mass, and even began to assume he was spending Saturday night with us so he could attend with us. I think his enthusiasm is growing, but as of right now he's not super-into the RCIA and catechism and stuff. He attended with us for about six months before they started the RCIA program.

 

He's not a reader, so I'm not sure books would be a great option.

 

He's asked questions about our scapulars, but I'm not sure he'd wear one. He won't wear a crucifix necklace or saint's necklace, nor would his dad permit.

 

Any ideas? Should I get a book anyhow, maybe on a saint or like those "fun facts for catholic kids" kind of thing, or ...?

 

I'd like to get something that he'd enjoy and/or at least get some use out of. I do plan to include a specific non-religious item he'll love, but still wanted to gift something Catholic-ish as well.

 

My 11 1/2 year old (as well as the youngers) really like the Glory Stories. We have the one on St. Martin de Porres and St. Claire of Assisi and they are asking for others as well. I think the lives of the saints are a very powerful way of bringing a person into the Church/bringing them to Christ, and the ones of adventure and daring seem to especially appeal to my boys (though they also really love any of the miraculous stories too, especially the part in St. Martin's story where they were late to get back and they flew their "supernaturally"). Being on audio means no reading, and if he listens with headphones then the dad doesn't have to hear it (though I can say what my dh loves the most, and what I think has helped him become more and more supportive of our journey, has been the stories of the saints and miracles).

[Elinor Everywhere]

Abstinence in this sense does mean abstaining from something 100%, even if it is only for a specific period of time. The problem is that we still use traditional terms when our culture and language have changed.

 

In traditional culinary terms, and what you will still see in culinary schools, is that the term "meat" refers to red meat and white meat. Fish is called fish or seafood. Fish was not traditionally called meat. You will still see this in gourmet restaurants, the meat course will usually be a red meat, and the fish course could be any type of seafood.

 

So, abstaining from meat never referred to fish. Fish was poor man's food, meat was once considered a luxury that most poor people could only eat on special occasions. So, on Friday's we abstain from meat in honor of Christ's suffering on Good Friday. We try to eat simple meals, and not have fancy seafood dinners on Friday, because that defeats the purpose.

 

 

This is very helpful! Having recently returned to Lenten practices, on Fridays I tell my dh I'm not having meat. He always jokes, "Why did you thaw fish then?" (he's having a hard time getting past his 30 years of non-denom thinking on this). I love your analogy - we spend a lot of time in Europe &, like good restaurants here, they label "meat" and "fish" separately. This is definitely an explanation he can understand. I hope. :tongue_smilie:

[K&Rs Mom]

I think today in America, food in general is so plentiful that these type of dietary restrictions don't really have the same impact and meaning that they used to. But, I do remember when I was a girl many Catholics I knew still abstained from meat on every Friday, not just the ones in Lent. If you do it all year, it is much more of a sacrifice.

 

You're right that it's really different in our culture of plenty. But the meatless Fridays thing never really went away - it's one of those misconceptions about Vatican II. It was supposed to give flexibility to replace that with a different penance on Fridays, not just get rid of the whole idea, but most people ignored that part. Yet another casualty of the poor catechesis in the late 20th century: I didn't find this out until a couple years ago.

 

To further add to the mix, the Church considers any cold-blooded animal as "fish." Turtle, alligator, iguana... all of these are okay for Fridays. In fact, the archbishop of New Orleans recently addressed this in a letter to a parishioner.

 

Capybaras too - when the Spanish explorers found them in South America, they wrote to the pope to ask, and based on their description of this animal spending most of its time in the water he said go ahead and eat them.

 

Gift ideas for a 12 year old who will be making FHC next week?

 

I agree with the suggestion above about the Glory Stories, or the same company has an Altar Gang audio series that's pretty funny and well made, including an episode where they're preparing the church for FHC. That website has lots of cool stuff. Any of the "exciting" saint stories would be good, even for a nonreader, because they want to find out what happens next. St Francis was a knight, St Anthony of Padua too; Bl Miguel Pro and St Edmund Campion were chased by their governments; St Francis Xavier and Ignatius of Loyola and Fr Jacques Marquette had some travel/exploring adventures.

 

A rosary is a traditional gift, maybe in a nice case, or help him make one in the Rosary Army style (knotted instead of beaded, a little more boy-friendly, less jewelry-like).

[*Michelle*]

Capybaras too - when the Spanish explorers found them in South America, they wrote to the pope to ask, and based on their description of this animal spending most of its time in the water he said go ahead and eat them.

 

How funny. I have a lot of family in Central America and they hunt and eat capybaras, although they call them "rabbits."

[Briva]

If you really want a great book that will blow your mind, read How to Go From Being a Good Evangelical to a Committed Catholic in Ninety-Five Difficult Steps. You will swear that the author had a video camera set up in your house and somehow knew all your thoughts.

 

Thanks for the book recommendation

[Briva]

Well, dearest Catholic ladies, I may be too careful and reserved to post this later, but I will be bold and post it now: Thank God for our local Catholic hospital! (crying) I've just had a miscarriage there, and the remains will be respectfully buried by them along with other lost little ones. There will be a memorial and a garden we can visit. Thank you, thank you for holding on to respect for life-- God's creation-- even when the world tells us such things are not important. Even if you are thought old fashioned or peculiar by the world, (not by me) you have held onto the essence of our faith. Hold on to this, never let go.

 

I am so sorry, Little Nyssa, and I agree with your thoughts.

[Briva]

double post

[Little Nyssa]

 

There used to be more fasting and abstaining days. This page has a table of which are still required and which have been abolished. There are some traditional Catholics who still follow the old rules. Nothing wrong with that. I think of it as the requirement is the bare minimum. Everything else is gravy.

 

I read this link with great interest, and I like the teaching there. I was wondering, though, what was the reason for the modification of fasting rules in 1983? Were the earlier rules thought to be too hard for lay people living in the world, or was there another reason? Thank you!

[ElizaG]

I read this link with great interest, and I like the teaching there. I was wondering, though, what was the reason for the modification of fasting rules in 1983? Were the earlier rules thought to be too hard for lay people living in the world, or was there another reason? Thank you!

From what I've read about the way things were in the first half of the 20th century, many Catholics were excused from some or all of the fasting and abstinence rules, for reasons related to their jobs, health, etc. At that time, some people believed that it would be better & less confusing to have a minimum standard that was required of the vast majority of people -- with exhortations to go beyond the minimum when possible -- rather than have a stricter standard that was frequently relaxed (i.e., along the lines of the Eastern approach).

 

This idea picked up steam in the Vatican II era, which was marked (among other things) by a great deal of optimism about human nature. There was a concern that many Catholics weren't developing a mature faith -- that they should have been fasting, praying, etc., out of sincere devotion, rather than because they were "supposed to" or because everyone else was doing it. And according to the individualistic and anti-hierarchical mentality of the time, which affected the thinking of some in the Church, the way to encourage this was to drop most of the rules and communal practices, and just let each of us come up with our own way of doing things.

 

So this was the stated reasoning behind the relaxation of many types of discipline in the decades immediately following the Council. According to the literature of the time, the changes were supposed to urge us on to even greater acts of devotion. What ended up happening, though, was that the slackers kept slacking, the rule-followers just followed the new rules, the truly devout felt alienated, and everyone lost familiar parts of their cultural identity. This can be seen in some religious congregations, as well as among laypeople (although I don't suppose there were ever a lot of slackers among the sisters :) ).

 

Catholics who take the long view would point out that the 50 years after every Council have been marked by turbulence, as people tried to grasp what was meant and how to implement it. And in recent years, bishops around the world are moving back toward reinstituting "meatless Fridays." Our US bishops have asked (not required) the faithful to practice both abstinence and fasting on all Fridays during this entire Year of Faith. And there's a small but growing interest in rediscovering traditional ways of observing Lent, as you can see on this group. (This is my first year trying to follow the fasting guidelines that my parents' generation grew up with. Many thanks to Violet Crown and others for encouraging this!)

 

So I guess it's true that "The Times They Are A-Changin'." Though maybe not as originally envisioned. ;)

[Hunter's Moon]

I am reading a great book on Pope John XXIII. It is called "The Good Pope". My library lends it through Kindle, so I've been reading it on the bus to and from work.

[extendedforecast]

A couple of questions:

 

First, I have a bottle of holy water that my grandmother gave me years ago that I have kept and treasured. She also gave me a font at some point in the past few years as well. I have finally decided on a place to place the font as well as some other things I've held on to over the years. It will be a sort of prayer corner. After we use up the holy water, how do I go about getting more? I feel very silly asking this question.

 

My second question is about indulgences. What are they? I learned about them from a booklet with the mysteries of the rosary, but it didn't explain what indulgences were.

[VeritasMama]

A couple of questions:

 

First, I have a bottle of holy water that my grandmother gave me years ago that I have kept and treasured. She also gave me a font at some point in the past few years as well. I have finally decided on a place to place the font as well as some other things I've held on to over the years. It will be a sort of prayer corner. After we use up the holy water, how do I go about getting more? I feel very silly asking this question.

 

My second question is about indulgences. What are they? I learned about them from a booklet with the mysteries of the rosary, but it didn't explain what indulgences were.

 

 

Holy water is available at most churches. There is a container in my church by the door where you can fill up your bottle any time. Otherwise you can ask a priest to bless some water for you.

 

Here the Catholic Encyclopedia on indulgences:

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

 

I wish I could explain indulgences in a simply way myself, but I don't think it would be very coherent. Maybe some of the other ladies take a crack at it.

[extendedforecast]

 

 

Holy water is available at most churches. There is a container in my church by the door where you can fill up your bottle any time. Otherwise you can ask a priest to bless some water for you.

 

Here the Catholic Encyclopedia on indulgences:

 

http://www.newadvent...then/07783a.htm

 

I wish I could explain indulgences in a simply way myself, but I don't think it would be very coherent. Maybe some of the other ladies take a crack at it.

 

Thanks, I'll read this tonight.

[Little Nyssa]

From what I've read about the way things were in the first half of the 20th century, many Catholics were excused from some or all of the fasting and abstinence rules, for reasons related to their jobs, health, etc. At that time, some people believed that it would be better & less confusing to have a minimum standard that was required of the vast majority of people -- with exhortations to go beyond the minimum when possible -- rather than have a stricter standard that was frequently relaxed (i.e., along the lines of the Eastern approach).

 

This idea picked up steam in the Vatican II era, which was marked (among other things) by a great deal of optimism about human nature. There was a concern that many Catholics weren't developing a mature faith -- that they should have been fasting, praying, etc., out of sincere devotion, rather than because they were "supposed to" or because everyone else was doing it. And according to the individualistic and anti-hierarchical mentality of the time, which affected the thinking of some in the Church, the way to encourage this was to drop most of the rules and communal practices, and just let each of us come up with our own way of doing things.

 

So this was the stated reasoning behind the relaxation of many types of discipline in the decades immediately following the Council. According to the literature of the time, the changes were supposed to urge us on to even greater acts of devotion. What ended up happening, though, was that the slackers kept slacking, the rule-followers just followed the new rules, the truly devout felt alienated, and everyone lost familiar parts of their cultural identity. This can be seen in some religious congregations, as well as among laypeople (although I don't suppose there were ever a lot of slackers among the sisters :) ).

 

Catholics who take the long view would point out that the 50 years after every Council have been marked by turbulence, as people tried to grasp what was meant and how to implement it. And in recent years, bishops around the world are moving back toward reinstituting "meatless Fridays." Our US bishops have asked (not required) the faithful to practice both abstinence and fasting on all Fridays during this entire Year of Faith. And there's a small but growing interest in rediscovering traditional ways of observing Lent, as you can see on this group. (This is my first year trying to follow the fasting guidelines that my parents' generation grew up with. Many thanks to Violet Crown and others for encouraging this!)

 

So I guess it's true that "The Times They Are A-Changin'." Though maybe not as originally envisioned. ;)

 

Thank you very much for this thoughtful answer! Now I understand better.

[extendedforecast]

From what I've read about the way things were in the first half of the 20th century, many Catholics were excused from some or all of the fasting and abstinence rules, for reasons related to their jobs, health, etc. At that time, some people believed that it would be better & less confusing to have a minimum standard that was required of the vast majority of people -- with exhortations to go beyond the minimum when possible -- rather than have a stricter standard that was frequently relaxed (i.e., along the lines of the Eastern approach).

 

This idea picked up steam in the Vatican II era, which was marked (among other things) by a great deal of optimism about human nature. There was a concern that many Catholics weren't developing a mature faith -- that they should have been fasting, praying, etc., out of sincere devotion, rather than because they were "supposed to" or because everyone else was doing it. And according to the individualistic and anti-hierarchical mentality of the time, which affected the thinking of some in the Church, the way to encourage this was to drop most of the rules and communal practices, and just let each of us come up with our own way of doing things.

 

So this was the stated reasoning behind the relaxation of many types of discipline in the decades immediately following the Council. According to the literature of the time, the changes were supposed to urge us on to even greater acts of devotion. What ended up happening, though, was that the slackers kept slacking, the rule-followers just followed the new rules, the truly devout felt alienated, and everyone lost familiar parts of their cultural identity. This can be seen in some religious congregations, as well as among laypeople (although I don't suppose there were ever a lot of slackers among the sisters :) ).

 

Catholics who take the long view would point out that the 50 years after every Council have been marked by turbulence, as people tried to grasp what was meant and how to implement it. And in recent years, bishops around the world are moving back toward reinstituting "meatless Fridays." Our US bishops have asked (not required) the faithful to practice both abstinence and fasting on all Fridays during this entire Year of Faith. And there's a small but growing interest in rediscovering traditional ways of observing Lent, as you can see on this group. (This is my first year trying to follow the fasting guidelines that my parents' generation grew up with. Many thanks to Violet Crown and others for encouraging this!)

 

So I guess it's true that "The Times They Are A-Changin'." Though maybe not as originally envisioned. ;)

 

I signed the pledge and signed up for reminders, because I couldn't do it at this point without reminders. Why Fridays? Does it go back to Good Friday?

[Tita Gidge]

 

My 11 1/2 year old (as well as the youngers) really like the Glory Stories. We have the one on St. Martin de Porres and St. Claire of Assisi and they are asking for others as well. I think the lives of the saints are a very powerful way of bringing a person into the Church/bringing them to Christ, and the ones of adventure and daring seem to especially appeal to my boys (though they also really love any of the miraculous stories too, especially the part in St. Martin's story where they were late to get back and they flew their "supernaturally"). Being on audio means no reading, and if he listens with headphones then the dad doesn't have to hear it (though I can say what my dh loves the most, and what I think has helped him become more and more supportive of our journey, has been the stories of the saints and miracles).

 

 

I agree with the suggestion above about the Glory Stories, or the same company has an Altar Gang audio series that's pretty funny and well made, including an episode where they're preparing the church for FHC. That website has lots of cool stuff. Any of the "exciting" saint stories would be good, even for a nonreader, because they want to find out what happens next. St Francis was a knight, St Anthony of Padua too; Bl Miguel Pro and St Edmund Campion were chased by their governments; St Francis Xavier and Ignatius of Loyola and Fr Jacques Marquette had some travel/exploring adventures.

 

A rosary is a traditional gift, maybe in a nice case, or help him make one in the Rosary Army style (knotted instead of beaded, a little more boy-friendly, less jewelry-like).

 

Thanks for the ideas - I found some online instructions for making a knotted rosary so we're going to do that. I've never heard of the Altar Gang series, but one is specifically geared towards FHC so I went ahead and ordered it :) I've heard about the Glory Stories, but hadn't heard any reviews. Going off of your recommendations I went ahead and ordered some. The Communicant and my kids will be getting some for Easter.

 

Thank you both!

[ElizaG]

I signed the pledge and signed up for reminders, because I couldn't do it at this point without reminders. Why Fridays? Does it go back to Good Friday?

 

 

Yes -- it's in memory of Christ's suffering and death. Each Friday of the year is a bit like Lent, just as each Sunday of the year is a bit like Easter. :)

[Parrothead]

... was to drop most of the rules and communal practices, and just let each of us come up with our own way of doing things.

 

 

 

That sounds so 1970s. I can envision the conference where that was said. *shudders*

[justamouse]

I was reading this great article this morning and thought of this thread and some of the recent questions.

 

Why it's a Sin to Miss Mass on Sundays and Holy Days--

 

But, he also goes into meatless Friday and other disciplines.

[Lakeside]

I was reading this great article this morning and thought of this thread and some of the recent questions.

 

Why it's a Sin to Miss Masson Sunday's and Holy Days--

 

But, he also goes into meatless Friday and other disciplines.

 

This was an interesting article. Thanks for sharing it!

 

[justamouse]

This was an interesting article. Thanks for sharing it!

 

 

geez, when I see my quote in someone else's comment, the errors just JUMP out... :D

[AimeeM]

For those who remember my post in the old social group, I finally scheduled a private confession for 10 am tomorrow morning with Father Longenecker. Nervous as all get-out; it's been 20 years since my last confession and this is a... doozy.

A kind thought and quick prayer would be appreciated. The kiddos are going to have to sit in the car (it's fine - small parish and dd12 will be in the car with both boys), since I couldn't find a sitter for that time.

[aggieamy]

For those who remember my post in the old social group, I finally scheduled a private confession for 10 am tomorrow morning with Father Longenecker. Nervous as all get-out; it's been 20 years since my last confession and this is a... doozy.

A kind thought and quick prayer would be appreciated. The kiddos are going to have to sit in the car (it's fine - small parish and dd12 will be in the car with both boys), since I couldn't find a sitter for that time.

 

 

I'll put a post note on my computer to remember to pray for you at that time. Good luck! ((HUGS))

[OrdinaryTime]

Praying for you tomorrow!

[justamouse]

For those who remember my post in the old social group, I finally scheduled a private confession for 10 am tomorrow morning with Father Longenecker. Nervous as all get-out; it's been 20 years since my last confession and this is a... doozy.

A kind thought and quick prayer would be appreciated. The kiddos are going to have to sit in the car (it's fine - small parish and dd12 will be in the car with both boys), since I couldn't find a sitter for that time.

 

 

 

I'm taking Aggie's hint and posting a note to pray!

 

(and, I'm kinda jealous you get him) The kids will be fine even if you bring them in. You can go in the reconciliation room while they sit int he pews. Father has kids, just ask him, even if you're in the office, they'll be able to sit in the waiting room.

 

:grouphug:

[AimeeM]

 

 

I'm taking Aggie's hint and posting a note to pray!

 

(and, I'm kinda jealous you get him) The kids will be fine even if you bring them in. You can go in the reconciliation room while they sit int he pews. Father has kids, just ask him, even if you're in the office, they'll be able to sit in the waiting room.

 

:grouphug:

 

I don't think dd could handle both boys unless they're buckled in their car seats. Lol!

 

I'm afraid that he'll think I'm horrible. I have a knot in my freakin' stomach. Gah.

[aggieamy]

I don't think dd could handle both boys unless they're buckled in their car seats. Lol!

 

I'm afraid that he'll think I'm horrible. I have a knot in my freakin' stomach. Gah.

 

 

I wasn't on the old social group but let me say this - I've confessed some pretty horrible things and the priest was just as kind and wonderful as can be. Once it's over, it's over. I think tomorrow you'll see that the thinking about it beforehand was worse than actually doing it.

[Lakeside]

I wanted to say thank you to whoever posted the suggestion for the 54 day novena. It has been a real blessing. (I tried searching to see who posted it, but I haven't mastered te search function on the new boards and the thread is too long to look through page by page.

 

I also wanted to thank whoever recommended Father Longenecker's website on the old social group. I was lurking there one day and happened upon a suggestion for his blog or one of his books, I don't remember exactly. Anyway, I got his book on the rosary back then and recently got The Quest for the Creed. They've been great!

 

And, finally, thank you to all of you for posting with advice and sharing your experiences. You never know how it will help or encourage others!

[justamouse]

I wasn't on the old social group but let me say this - I've confessed some pretty horrible things and the priest was just as kind and wonderful as can be. Once it's over, it's over. I think tomorrow you'll see that the thinking about it beforehand was worse than actually doing it.

 

SO true. And, when you're done? You'll feel amazing. It's truly a healing sacrament.

[Tita Gidge]

For those who remember my post in the old social group, I finally scheduled a private confession for 10 am tomorrow morning with Father Longenecker. Nervous as all get-out; it's been 20 years since my last confession and this is a... doozy.

A kind thought and quick prayer would be appreciated. The kiddos are going to have to sit in the car (it's fine - small parish and dd12 will be in the car with both boys), since I couldn't find a sitter for that time.

 

I go a few times each month, and it's just as nerve-wracking every time.

 

The longest I've been without was for several months, because I had a mortal doozy of one to confess, too, and I was trying to avoid it. Like it would magically go away. Or I could do the old Protestant one-on-one personal confession thing ... suddenly that sounded like a GREAT plan! God's funny because I had no problem skipping Communion during regular Mass, but we had one making FHC and I wasn't going to miss the opportunity to share communion with her on that special day. So I sucked it up and went to Confession.

 

I have to say, that one doozy of a confession was so freeing and spiritually healing. And I knew it would be, but I didn't know HOW MUCH SO it could be.

 

And it's weird, because I haven't done any mortal sins since (whew!) but have resumed my regular bi-weekly Confessions. And I find that it's the smaller, venial sins that I confess more frequently that have done more damage to me spiritually than did that one big mortal sin. I feel truly grateful for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I know Protestants don't understand it, don't like it but I wish they could know it ... because there's no wondering if I've been forgiven ... there's no beating myself up over it unless I choose to ... because I know that absolution is mine. And that makes the anticipatory dread of walking into the confessional so very much worthwhile!

 

I'm proud of you, and will be thinking of you tomorrow :)

[PrairieSong]

For those who remember my post in the old social group, I finally scheduled a private confession for 10 am tomorrow morning with Father Longenecker. Nervous as all get-out; it's been 20 years since my last confession and this is a... doozy.

A kind thought and quick prayer would be appreciated. The kiddos are going to have to sit in the car (it's fine - small parish and dd12 will be in the car with both boys), since I couldn't find a sitter for that time.

 

Aimee, I'm happy for you that you will be receiving this beautiful sacrament. I get nervous, too, even when I don't feel like it's "a doozy". But I'm always very, very glad after I go. You will NOT shock the priest with whatever you say, and you will be so glad afterward. I'll be praying for you, too! Wish I lived nearby...you could drop the kiddos off at my house. God bless you.

[madlibs]

For those of you who may not remember, my dh and I are planning to enter the church at Easter Vigil. A few weeks ago we met with one of the deacons at our parish to discuss the steps we needed to take to baptise our newest upcoming baby and to find out if there was anything we needed to do regarding our marriage. The deacon assured us that even though we were married as protestants, in a protestant church, by a protestant minister, that the Catholic church still recognized our marriage as sacramental so no additional steps were needed.

 

However, last night the associate priest at our parish visited our RCIA class to discuss the sacrament of marriage. During that talk, he said that all protestant marriages must be convalidated. In fact, according to this priest the church is bending the rules a little by allowing us to receive the Eucharist at Easter Vigil. He told me that dh and I must have our marriage blessed during the week after Easter Vigil.

 

I've done a little reading on my own, and everything I've read agrees with the deacon - our marriage is sacramental and does not need to be convalidated. Do you ladies have any insight into this subject? I really don't mind having the marriage convalidated, to be honest I'm more bothered by the fact that maybe I shouldn't be receiving the Eucharist at Easter.

 

Thank you for your help. Oh and by the way this is the only marriage for dh and I.

 

Robin

[AimeeM]

For those of you who may not remember, my dh and I are planning to enter the church at Easter Vigil. A few weeks ago we met with one of the deacons at our parish to discuss the steps we needed to take to baptise our newest upcoming baby and well as if there was anything we needed to do regarding our marriage. The deacon assured us that even though we were married as protestants, in a protestant church, by a protestant minister, that the Catholic church still recognized our marriage as sacramental so no additional steps were needed.

 

However, last night the associate priest at our parish visited our RCIA class to discuss the sacrament of marriage. During that talk, he said that all protestant marriages must be convalidated. In fact, according to this priest the church is bending the rules a little by allowing us to receive the Eucharist at Easter Vigil. He told me that dh and I must have our marriage blessed during the week after Easter Vigil.

 

I've done a little reading on my own, and everything I've read agrees with the deacon - our marriage is sacramental and does not need to be convalidated. Do you ladies have any insight into this subject. I really don't mind having the marriage convalidated, to be honest I'm more bothered by the fact that maybe I shouldn't be receiving the Eucharist at Easter.

 

Thank you for your help. Oh and by the way this is the only marriage for dh and I.

 

Robin

I'm not sure how it works technically, but I can say that even for my husband and I (both practicing Catholics), our marriage must be convalidated because we were married outside of The Church (it was a runaway wedding, lol!).

[AimeeM]

 

Aimee, I'm happy for you that you will be receiving this beautiful sacrament. I get nervous, too, even when I don't feel like it's "a doozy". But I'm always very, very glad after I go. You will NOT shock the priest with whatever you say, and you will be so glad afterward. I'll be praying for you, too! Wish I lived nearby...you could drop the kiddos off at my house. God bless you.

 

You ladies are wonderful. Thank you for the support.

 

The church office just called and pushed me back to 10:30 because Father L is driving in from out of town. I have time for more coffee.... lol.

[*Michelle*]

Your marriage should not need to be convalidated if neither of you were Catholic at the time of the marriage and neither of you were divorced before your marriage.

 

http://www.americancatholic.org/messenger/feb2004/feature2.asp

 

Q. Why is a Church tribunal decision necessary?

 

A. In simplest terms, if a Catholic wishes to marry in the Church when there has been a previous marriage, then one of the partners in the earlier union must have died or the Church must have issued a declaration of nullity (frequently called an annulment) of the previous marriage.

 

The Catholic Church views all marriages with respect. It presumes that they are true and valid. Thus, it considers the marriage, for example, of two Protestant, Jewish or even nonbelieving persons to be binding in the eyes of God. These unions are covered by the words of Christ about divorce.

 

Consequently, a tribunal process is required to establish that an essential ingredient in the relationship was missing from the start of the previous marriage.

[windmillmarie]

For those who remember my post in the old social group, I finally scheduled a private confession for 10 am tomorrow morning with Father Longenecker. Nervous as all get-out; it's been 20 years since my last confession and this is a... doozy.

A kind thought and quick prayer would be appreciated. The kiddos are going to have to sit in the car (it's fine - small parish and dd12 will be in the car with both boys), since I couldn't find a sitter for that time.

 

 

How do you ask for something like this? At the last parish we were near when I was considering coming back to church, I asked the rectory for something like this. I also asked if I could talk to him about my questions. They were very dismissive, told me the priest there only heard confession during the scheduled times and was very busy to be speaking to people individually. I was a bit shocked, honestly, because I read stories of people actually seeing Fr. Insertnamehere around town or talking about having him stop for dinner or visiting with him. Is this a smaller town thing? The priests were nearly inaccessible growing up too, though not as much I encountered the last time.

 

I don't know if I am articulating that sufficiently. I was surprised to see that in some of my friend's religions, they could talk to their pastors/elders or ask them questions or have them stop by and give a blessing to your home or have a church gathering where you might discuss some religious things and some frivolous things like cake :laugh: . That seemed so foreign to me. I went to CCD, the parish pastor might stop by, you could shake his hand after mass, you could go to confession on Sunday, but otherwise, there was a very fine line where you had to know your place and not really interact.

 

Now one of my parents grew up in Chicago and attended Catholic grammar and High Schools there, and his memories are completely different. He has those memories of hanging out with the priests, working on cars together in shop class, had them as teachers etc.

 

I am confused if this is a generational thing or an area thing or a personality thing or phases the Dioceses in my two areas I live in frequently are going though where they have this cold, detached, distant preference over a warm, friendly accommodating atmosphere.

 

I have decreed 2013 my year for relearning about my childhood Catholicism since I am apparently clueless about it as a CCD Cradle Catholic Creaster. I use Behold and See from CHC with my kids for afterschooling since it spoke to me (I thought it was a sign that I should take a look at my childhood religion :leaving:) and there are things in there I never learned in years of CCD.

 

I was also part of the choir in high school. I miss that a bit too! Wow, this is so confusing. Thank you for letting me unload all these thoughts here. I haven't read the thread yet as I am keeping off the internet most of the day for lent and focusing on my family. My overreaching goal of the year finding where I fit and I thought this was internet worthy.

 

(I also have a huge struggle because I support gay marriage and IVF with all embryo saving, but I am strongly against abortion in nearly every form and identify with many aspects of Catholicism. I am a pain in the bottom, I think.)