Crossing the Tiber - The Master Thread

[Parrothead]

Okay, so here it is. Until OJ gets the social groups back up. Please, we welcome a bit of debate, but no bashing. Any and all questions about the Catholic faith are welcome.

 

If you are currently in RCIA or are contemplating joining a class at your local parish we are happy to help with any concerns in that area.

 

If you are just someone who has a question that you've always wanted to ask but didn't know where to go, ask here.

 

If you are Catholic and have cool Advent or other resources to share please feel free.

[Liz CA]

Not a earth-shaking issue...but I am curious. I have always had an advent wreath with four red candles. A friend who was raised catholic, said one candle should be purple.

Any deep thoughts on this?

[Parrothead]

Traditionally we have 3 purple candles and 1 pink candle.

 

The four candles represent the four weeks of Advent. A tradition is that each week represents one thousand years, to sum to the 4,000 years from Adam and Eve until the Birth of the Savior. Three candles are purple and one is rose. The purple candles in particular symbolize the prayer, penance, and preparatory sacrifices and goods works undertaken at this time. The rose candle is lit on the third Sunday, Gaudete Sunday, when the priest also wears rose vestments at Mass; Gaudete Sunday is the Sunday of rejoicing, because the faithful have arrived at the midpoint of Advent, when their preparations are now half over and they are close to Christmas. The progressive lighting of the candles symbolizes the expectation and hope surrounding our Lord’s first coming into the world and the anticipation of His second coming to judge the living and the dead.

 

I have heard of people putting a white candle in the center of the wreath and it is called the Jesus candle. It is to be lit on Christmas.

 

More info can be found here

[Ellesmere]

Not a earth-shaking issue...but I am curious. I have always had an advent wreath with four red candles. A friend who was raised catholic, said one candle should be purple.

Any deep thoughts on this?

 

 

NM, I liked Chucki's explanation better. :)

[Violet Crown]

The Advent wreath tradition is recent, and borrowed from the Lutherans, so there's no really "right" way for Catholics to do it. Using violet and pink candles is an even more recent development. American Catholics usually use violet/pink candles; European Catholics and Protestants use red.

 

We use deep red candles in our home's wreath, because

 

1. Laity using liturgical colors in private devotions has no precedent in Catholic tradition (likewise laity wearing red at Pentecost, etc.);

 

2. It's more universally Catholic rather than just American (also more ecumenical); and

 

3. Red candles are much prettier.

 

Naturally, YMMV; there are no rules for the laity.

[Parrothead]

The Advent wreath tradition is recent, and borrowed from the Lutherans, so there's no really "right" way for Catholics to do it. Using violet and pink candles is an even more recent development. American Catholics usually use violet/pink candles; European Catholics and Protestants use red

 

We use deep red candles in our home's wreath, because

 

1. Laity using liturgical colors in private devotions has no precedent in Catholic tradition (likewise laity wearing red at Pentecost, etc.);

 

2. It's more universally Catholic rather than just American; and

 

3. Red candles are much prettier.

 

Naturally, YMMV; there are no rules for the laity.

 

 

That happens at my current parish. I was really boggled a bit our first Pentecost here. All the little old ladies and quite a few of the men were in red.

[Elinor Everywhere]

That happens at my current parish. I was really boggled a bit our first Pentecost here. All the little old ladies and quite a few of the men were in red.

 

I know this is a Catholic thread, but this happened to us when we first went to our Anglican church (quick background: I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools through University, met my dh & switched to non-denom, missed liturgical & convinced the family to try Anglican).

 

Anyway, our first time at church was last Pentecost (we didn't know), and half the parish was in red. I really felt like we missed the memo!! :D

[Parrothead]

I know this is a Catholic thread, but this happened to us when we first went to our Anglican church (quick background: I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools through University, met my dh & switched to non-denom, missed liturgical & convinced the family to try Anglican).

 

Anyway, our first time at church was last Pentecost (we didn't know), and half the parish was in red. I really felt like we missed the memo!! :D

So, it isn't just a Catholic thing. LOL

[Violet Crown]

This sort of thing - matching the priest's vestments, etc. - lies near the core of my traddish leanings. Only in the last fifty years has there been any notion that the laity at Mass ought to be doing anything in particular, much less in coordination with the other congregants, much much less in coordination with the priest. I like having Father come in from the sacristy, turn toward the apse, and start praying the mass, with no interest in whether everyone has the same prayer posture, or is singing the hymn, or is praying the server/congregation responses or praying something else. He does his job, I do mine.

 

Yep, middle age sure has made me grouchy. :D

[Avila]

I am waving, but I have nothing earth shattering to add. I did buy a copy of Pope Benedict's Jesus of Nazareth: the Infancy Narratives to read during Advent.

 

And I got Johnnette Benkovic to sign a copy of Experience Grace in Abundance when she was at my parish to do a retreat. That was awesome. She is a wonderful speaker. The Truth in the Heart sisters also came, and we met two of them. So we are going into Advent feeling blessed.

[Parrothead]

 

 

Yep, middle age sure has made me grouchy. :D

 

LOL welcome to the club. :laugh:

[Parrothead]

I am waving, but I have nothing earth shattering to add. I did buy a copy of Pope Benedict's Jesus of Nazareth: the Infancy Narratives to read during Advent.

 

And I got Johnnette Benkovic to sign a copy of Experience Grace in Abundance when she was at my parish to do a retreat. That was awesome. She is a wonderful speaker. The Truth in the Heart sisters also came, and we met two of them. So we are going into Advent feeling blessed.

They all sound so wonderful. I'm interested in the Pope's book.

[Robin M]

I am waving, but I have nothing earth shattering to add. I did buy a copy of Pope Benedict's Jesus of Nazareth: the Infancy Narratives to read during Advent.

 

And I got Johnnette Benkovic to sign a copy of Experience Grace in Abundance when she was at my parish to do a retreat. That was awesome. She is a wonderful speaker. The Truth in the Heart sisters also came, and we met two of them. So we are going into Advent feeling blessed.

 

 

I read the first book in his trilogy From the baptism to the transfiguration. I love his writing and look forward to reading the other two eventually. Parrothead's title reminded me that I have Ray's Crossing The Tiber in my stacks. Should pull it out and read it for advent.

[milovany]

Nothing to add but a friendly wave. Hello! Enjoy your social-group-on-the-board as we have been over on the Orthodox thread. Seems like a decent way to handle it in the interim.

[Caitilin]

Hi all! Wishing everyone a blessed advent season! :)

[Faithr]

I am old, 52 as a matter of fact, and my mother always did the 3 purple candles and 1 pink candle and her mother did likewise (Irish Catholic from the Boston area; grandparents migrated from Ireland around the turn of the last century). So I don't think the candle color thing matching the liturgical colors is such a new thing. The wearing red at Pentecost I had never heard of before until a few years ago, but the candle color thing is definitely something that has been around longer than I have!

[Violet Crown]

Good article on the Advent wreath here:

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/11/customs-of-advent-advent-wreath.html

[Tita Gidge]

Seeking book recommendation for enthusiastic convert!

 

Earlier this year I met a woman who had converted about 8-9 years ago into a family of twice-a-year Catholics. She's hungry for information on those little extra things we Catholics do throughout the year, and interested in bringing some of those customs to her own family. Her husband's family didn't really do any, so he doesn't have much to share on the subject. I share some of my customs with her, but mine are seeped in my ethnic background (which is quite different from hers!) For example, she didn't know about Holy Thursday pilgrimmages, or celebrating feast days (including name days and our patron saints'), crowning statues of Mary in May (she has several statues at home), and that sort of thing.

 

She's doing fabulously with the academic side of her conversion (studying the CCC, keeping a Friday fast, holy days of obligation, etc.) but feels they're missing out on those little cultural tradition things that some families do throughout the liturgical year. She grew up without any religion, so she doesn't even have ideas from her own upbringing to call upon and try to Catholicize. I'd love to find her a book full of ideas she can look to throughout the year. She's not an internet person, and blogs aren't her thing (I tried that avenue already). Is there anything like a Catholic customs/traditions for Dummies?

 

I'd love to find a book to gift her for Christmas. I've seen a few titles online, but prefer one recommended firsthand, if possible.

 

Any ideas?

[Avila]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Year-Our-Children-Celebrations/dp/1933184272/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354424882&sr=8-1&keywords=Mary+newland

 

http://www.amazon.com/Continual-Feast-Celebrate-Throughout-Christian/dp/0898703840/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354425373&sr=1-1&keywords=a+continual+feast

 

These are my two favorites. The Year and Our Children and A Continual Feast.

 

I think most people who join the Church feel that way. I still do, even after 17 years.

[kateincali]

Advent and Christmas in a Catholic Home by Helen McLoughlin

 

This is a great book for traditions in the home during the Christmas time!

[LearningMomm]

Just wanted to reply so I can find this later. On the iPad and it's to much time to everything! We're thinking about converting to Catholicism but I have a few questions and no one to ask. :)

[ElizaG]

Good article on the Advent wreath here:

http://www.newliturg...ent-wreath.html

 

Uh oh, posting links to New Liturgical Movement... you might scare off the new folks! Or they could just turn into liturgy nerds. :laugh:

 

The NLM folks and Johnnette Benkovic are so different, my mind can't contain them both at once. It's funny to see them mentioned in the same thread. A reminder that the Church is catholic with a small c, as well as a big C.

[Violet Crown]

I'll be good and not post links to Rorate Caeli. ;)

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

We're thinking about converting to Catholicism but I have a few questions and no one to ask. :)

You're at the right place!!!

[Parrothead]

Seeking book recommendation for enthusiastic convert!

 

Earlier this year I met a woman who had converted about 8-9 years ago into a family of twice-a-year Catholics. She's hungry for information on those little extra things we Catholics do throughout the year, and interested in bringing some of those customs to her own family. Her husband's family didn't really do any, so he doesn't have much to share on the subject. I share some of my customs with her, but mine are seeped in my ethnic background (which is quite different from hers!) For example, she didn't know about Holy Thursday pilgrimmages, or celebrating feast days (including name days and our patron saints'), crowning statues of Mary in May (she has several statues at home), and that sort of thing.

 

She's doing fabulously with the academic side of her conversion (studying the CCC, keeping a Friday fast, holy days of obligation, etc.) but feels they're missing out on those little cultural tradition things that some families do throughout the liturgical year. She grew up without any religion, so she doesn't even have ideas from her own upbringing to call upon and try to Catholicize. I'd love to find her a book full of ideas she can look to throughout the year. She's not an internet person, and blogs aren't her thing (I tried that avenue already). Is there anything like a Catholic customs/traditions for Dummies?

 

I'd love to find a book to gift her for Christmas. I've seen a few titles online, but prefer one recommended firsthand, if possible.

 

Any ideas?

 

And this is why we need the social groups back. There is a long thread on exactly this type situation.

 

I've never read this but Scott Hahn has a book called Signs of Life 40 Catholic Customs .That may help some. I'm sure the ladies will chime in shortly.

[Parrothead]

Just wanted to reply so I can find this later. On the iPad and it's to much time to everything! We're thinking about converting to Catholicism but I have a few questions and no one to ask. :)

 

 

Go ahead and ask away. We will look forward to hearing from you again. May God bless you during your journey.

[Parrothead]

Uh oh, posting links to New Liturgical Movement... you might scare off the new folks! Or they could just turn into liturgy nerds. :laugh: The NLM folks and Johnnette Benkovic are so different, my mind can't contain them both at once. It's funny to see them mentioned in the same thread. A reminder that the Church is catholic with a small c, as well as a big C.

I'll be good and not post links to Rorate Caeli. ;)

 

Okay, you two! Play nicely with the newbies. :lol: No need to scare anyone off with the NO v Traditional debate. (FWIW - Yeah, I miss it,)

[Violet Crown]

 

 

 

Okay, you two! Play nicely with the newbies. :lol: No need to scare anyone off with the NO v Traditional debate. (FWIW - Yeah, I miss it,)

:D

But you know, ElizaGrace is exactly right. We're one Church. My girls' godmother is an intensely charismatic Catholic, and the masses I favor make her want to run screaming for the hills just as much as those she favors make me. But she's the holiest person I have ever been blessed to know, and any amount of liturgical propriety dissolves into meaninglessness in the face of that holiness.

[Parrothead]

Some of you know I'm doing a Confirmation class on a wing and a prayer. If anyone can link some resources on the topic of "Gods Presence in the World." I'll eternally grateful.

 

I won't need it until next week.

[nono]

So, it isn't just a Catholic thing. LOL

 

Many conservative Anglican/Episcopalians I've met prefer to think of themselves "English Catholic." So, they would say, "Why yes, it is a Catholic thing." :tongue_smilie:

 

And, there were plenty of RCs in the 80s who really thought the Episcopalian church would be absorbed into the Catholic church as the "English Rite," so* I have been long brainwashed on the subject.

 

 

*Is it time for me to bring up Eastern Rite yet? :smilielol5: Yeah, we need the social group back.

[texasmama]

I attended a Catholic funeral mass yesterday and picked up an Advent booklet from the church. I am a lifelong protestant and will likely remain such, but I found the liturgy very beautiful and have enjoyed looking through the booklet for Advent. I will read through it with my kids. Something that I read about in the booklet seemed to indicate that all Catholic churches essentially use the same scriptures in worship each week as every other Catholic church. Did I understand this correctly? Thank you for answering questions from a non-Catholic. :)

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Something that I read about in the booklet seemed to indicate that all Catholic churches essentially use the same scriptures in worship each week as every other Catholic church. Did I understand this correctly? Thank you for answering questions from a non-Catholic. :)

 

Yes, All Catholic churches around the world, regardless of nationalities or languages, will have the same readings at every Sunday. (we do change from Sunday to Sunday, otherwise it would be boring :laugh:

The only part that will differ from one church to another is the homily, because that depends on the priest. Other than that, we are united in prayer, and in worship. It's one aspect of the Catholic Church that I enjoy very much.

[I.Dup.]

I am Catholic (we converted 2 years ago) and I would like to ask something in a more private place. Are most of you Catholics on the FB group? Any suggestions where I can talk about this?

[Ellesmere]

I attended a Catholic funeral mass yesterday and picked up an Advent booklet from the church. I am a lifelong protestant and will likely remain such, but I found the liturgy very beautiful and have enjoyed looking through the booklet for Advent. I will read through it with my kids. Something that I read about in the booklet seemed to indicate that all Catholic churches essentially use the same scriptures in worship each week as every other Catholic church. Did I understand this correctly? Thank you for answering questions from a non-Catholic. :)

 

Yes, and what CleoQc said. If you want to know any more about the liturgy, here is a link that explains a little about it and the Lectionary.

 

I could be wrong, but some other churches use lectionaries, too. I grew up sporadically going to a protestant church that had one.

[Violet Crown]

I was told by a PCUSA deacon that many of the mainline Protestant churches use the same Sunday lectionary as the post-1962 Catholics, with a few small differences.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I am Catholic (we converted 2 years ago) and I would like to ask something in a more private place. Are most of you Catholics on the FB group? Any suggestions where I can talk about this?

 

I'm not sure which FB group you are talking about, as I'm in more than one that are offshoots from this board. But you can PM me.

[Avila]

I am Catholic (we converted 2 years ago) and I would like to ask something in a more private place. Are most of you Catholics on the FB group? Any suggestions where I can talk about this?

 

 

Not sure FB is the exact right spot. I really wish CTT was up and running.

 

But please PM me or FB me, if I can help. You know how to find me over there. :)

[I.Dup.]

I pm'd several of you. I will include you, CleoQc

[Tita Gidge]

I've never read this but Scott Hahn has a book called Signs of Life 40 Catholic Customs.That may help some. I'm sure the ladies will chime in shortly.

 

 

Advent and Christmas in a Catholic Home by Helen McLoughlin

 

This is a great book for traditions in the home during the Christmas time!

 

 

http://www.amazon.co...ds=Mary newland

 

http://www.amazon.co...continual feast

 

These are my two favorites. The Year and Our Children and A Continual Feast.

 

 

WOW, those all look exactly like what I was searching for. I'm going to see if my local Catholic store carries any of those so I can flip through them before I commit.

 

Thank you so much, Parrothead, Kate & Avila!

[texasmama]

Thank you for the information. I look forward to continuing to read through the Advent booklet every day with my kids. :)

[Parrothead]

Question about the social group. Was it more "private" than just a thread? I ask because I really hate getting sucked into religion discussions on these boards (which I can't resist for some reason :smilielol5: ) . It would be nice to be able to discuss stuff and the only controversy to be feared is from the viewpoints of other Catholics (don't get me started on girl altar servers wearing cassocks and surplices instead of albs :boxing_smiley: ).

Yes, it was a bit more private. It was open as I didn't want anyone who was slightly hesitant to have to jump through an approval process, but it was rare that we had anyone comment who was not either Catholic or seeking.

 

As for what the girl alter servers wear I think it is a uniformity thing. Our parish got rid of the albs a couple years ago. All the alter servers wear the cassocks and surplices.

[Parrothead]

I attended a Catholic funeral mass yesterday and picked up an Advent booklet from the church. I am a lifelong protestant and will likely remain such, but I found the liturgy very beautiful and have enjoyed looking through the booklet for Advent. I will read through it with my kids. Something that I read about in the booklet seemed to indicate that all Catholic churches essentially use the same scriptures in worship each week as every other Catholic church. Did I understand this correctly? Thank you for answering questions from a non-Catholic. :)

Yes, that is one of the wonderful things about a liturgical church. I think there are a handful of non-Catholic Christian churches that are liturgical and will also have the same reading in every church. Sometimes these are on the same cycle.

 

One can walk into any Catholic church in the world and hear the same readings on any given day of the week. It may not be in one's home language though. But in today's world, there are apps for that. :coolgleamA:

 

I'm sorry about the loss of your loved one.

[dangermom]

I just got a Peter Kreeft book and I'm really enjoying it. It's just a run through the Bible. So far I haven't found much difference, except of course for the Fall narrative, which my church takes very differently than anyone else does.

[Parrothead]

I am Catholic (we converted 2 years ago) and I would like to ask something in a more private place. Are most of you Catholics on the FB group? Any suggestions where I can talk about this?

I'm glad you were able to come to us. :grouphug:

I hope you are feeling better now.

[Parrothead]

 

This is true. I used it for many years. The differences come in when there are readings from the Deuterocanonical books.

 

(Piping up here as a former Presbyterian. Diving back into my hole now.)

You are welcome to hang around with us. I enjoy seeing the opinions from the other side. :laugh:

[Parrothead]

My issue with it is that it makes them look too much like priests. If we're trying to send the message to girls that they can help with the mass and be involved but the priesthood is a male institution, then there is a disconnect with having them dress up like the priest does in the cassock.

 

This point was driven home to me when we visited a parish on vacation where there was a woman altar server who was dressed in a cassock and surplice. Poor Ladybug thought that this woman was a priestess and was incredibly confused because "Mama, that auntie wants to be a Father. That's ridiculous!" Out of the mouths of babes, she was three at the time. We never could convince her that she was only helping the priest.

 

Yes, I get the why of it.

 

Wow! I've never actually seen a woman alter serve.

 

Around here after about age 12 sports become priority and we have so much trouble getting kids to serve that the KOC steps in to serve.

[MyLittleWonders]

I'm so glad I ventured down to the chat forum to find this thread. :) I'm missing CTT. I have nothing really to add except that I love our Church! And I really, really love our Church when we sing O Come, O Come Emmanuel during Advent. That's all. :001_wub: Now I must at least read the chapters we are discussing in tonight's Bible study.

[Faithr]

Wanna do a Catholic themed reading challenge for 2013? This might be cheating a bit because I tend to do a lot of Catholic related reading anyway, but I thought it might fun to do an official reading challenge for next year. I noticed both Robin of Mytwoblessings and Jean of Howling Frog Books have both posted in this thread! Wanna brainstorm with me? Like maybe have 10 books out of the 52 that have to be Catholic in some way. Maybe read 1 saint biography, 1 book on theology, 1 book written by a pope, maybe a couple of novels written by well known Catholic authors (Chesterton, Flannery O'Conner, Waugh, Grahame Greene, etc.), maybe try to read completely an Old Testament book and a New Testament book, 1 book that focuses on contemporary Catholic issues, 1 book on history, 1 book a contemporary Catholic author (Kreeft, Martin, Hahn, etc).

 

What categories would you come up with?

[justamouse]

Not a earth-shaking issue...but I am curious. I have always had an advent wreath with four red candles. A friend who was raised catholic, said one candle should be purple.

Any deep thoughts on this?

 

 

 

The Advent Wreath.

 

The Catholics actually adopted it, and use the purple and rose for our own liturgical colors, but it would seem the Anglicans use blue and the Lutherans use red?

[justamouse]

This sort of thing - matching the priest's vestments, etc. - lies near the core of my traddish leanings. Only in the last fifty years has there been any notion that the laity at Mass ought to be doing anything in particular, much less in coordination with the other congregants, much much less in coordination with the priest. I like having Father come in from the sacristy, turn toward the apse, and start praying the mass, with no interest in whether everyone has the same prayer posture, or is singing the hymn, or is praying the server/congregation responses or praying something else. He does his job, I do mine.

 

Yep, middle age sure has made me grouchy. :D

 

 

 

Can you explain to this fresh from the Tiber Catholic? (I have a love for the very traditional, too).