Another conflict question: Talk with SIL tomorrow

[annandatje]

I think you need to do more listening than talking.

[annandatje]

What's your hobby? I'd like to make some rude generalisations about you and your mates that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. ... Rosie

 

 

:lol:

[FaithManor]

I've never heard of SCA before this thread (wow, I learn about a lot of new things from WTM boards!) and I'm not sure I understand how an alternative reality can take over. Do they appear mentally ill to others when they are living their daily lives? Do they grocery shop in their medieval clothing? Pretend they are a knight and lady all the time including how they dress? How does one keep a job if they are pretending to be Sir Lancelot instead of Derek the plumber?

 

I don't get it? I don't mean to be snarky, I'm not trying to be. I sincerely don't understand how this can happen when one has to to pay rent or mortgage, gas, food, and other necessities. Are there communities set up with people from SCA who are all living their alternative reality all the time? Like a medieval commune? :bigear:

 

 

My brother and his wife, at this point, do not act their roles outside of their home, but they are increasingly shutting out the real world in order to spend more time perfecting these roles. They neglect my niece terribly and my brother's youngest boy, the high school senior, has moved out. His father is losing interest in dealing with real world issues such as helping his son get ready for college, making sure niece is getting an education, spending time with people in settings other than SCA, and is on the edge of being fired. During the event in Holly this summer/autumn, he failed to show up for work twice because he couldn't bring himself to leave the Renaissance Fair. SIL spends most of her day perfecting her music skills for a role as a medieval musician that she is hoping to take on and niece is left to her own devices for hours, even days on end. They are increasingly shutting out anyone who does not get involved in SCA and are VERY angry that dh and I have not shown interest in joining their group.

 

They do not act weird at the grocery store, etc. However, we things are slowly moving that way. My mom just had surgery and they could not even be engaged in a discussion about mom's health, what needed to be done for her after the surgery, etc. If you aren't willing to talk ad nauseum about SCA, then they aren't willing to engage in conversation. Though they've tried to appear "normal" to everyone else but their extended family, it is becoming noticeable. I have had a lady in the community express to me that if things get worse, she'll call CPS because of neglect of niece. So, despite our earlier assertions that we would not be raising niece for them, there is an excellent chance she will eventually come to live with us because of this.

 

Faith

[Trish]

My brother and his wife, at this point, do not act their roles outside of their home, but they are increasingly shutting out the real world in order to spend more time perfecting these roles. They neglect my niece terribly and my brother's youngest boy, the high school senior, has moved out. His father is losing interest in dealing with real world issues such as helping his son get ready for college, making sure niece is getting an education, spending time with people in settings other than SCA, and is on the edge of being fired. During the event in Holly this summer/autumn, he failed to show up for work twice because he couldn't bring himself to leave the Renaissance Fair. SIL spends most of her day perfecting her music skills for a role as a medieval musician that she is hoping to take on and niece is left to her own devices for hours, even days on end. They are increasingly shutting out anyone who does not get involved in SCA and are VERY angry that dh and I have not shown interest in joining their group.

 

 

Faith

 

Storm the manor! Burn the costumes! Yeah, I know an obsession like this that affects other family members isn't funny at all to those affected, but maybe the brute force and harsh realities of that era need to disturb their point of view. Hopefully it won't get to the point where you need to catapult CPS into their lives...

 

:grouphug:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

My brother and his wife, at this point, do not act their roles outside of their home, but they are increasingly shutting out the real world in order to spend more time perfecting these roles. They neglect my niece terribly and my brother's youngest boy, the high school senior, has moved out. His father is losing interest in dealing with real world issues such as helping his son get ready for college, making sure niece is getting an education, spending time with people in settings other than SCA, and is on the edge of being fired. During the event in Holly this summer/autumn, he failed to show up for work twice because he couldn't bring himself to leave the Renaissance Fair. SIL spends most of her day perfecting her music skills for a role as a medieval musician that she is hoping to take on and niece is left to her own devices for hours, even days on end. They are increasingly shutting out anyone who does not get involved in SCA and are VERY angry that dh and I have not shown interest in joining their group.

 

They do not act weird at the grocery store, etc. However, we things are slowly moving that way. My mom just had surgery and they could not even be engaged in a discussion about mom's health, what needed to be done for her after the surgery, etc. If you aren't willing to talk ad nauseum about SCA, then they aren't willing to engage in conversation. Though they've tried to appear "normal" to everyone else but their extended family, it is becoming noticeable. I have had a lady in the community express to me that if things get worse, she'll call CPS because of neglect of niece. So, despite our earlier assertions that we would not be raising niece for them, there is an excellent chance she will eventually come to live with us because of this.

 

Faith

 

:grouphug: That sounds like a gaming addiction, or an addiction to something like SecondLife.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Oh, Faith. That is so tragic. :grouphug:

 

I agree, it sounds like role-playing addiction IRL.

[Robin M]

My brother and his wife, at this point, do not act their roles outside of their home, but they are increasingly shutting out the real world in order to spend more time perfecting these roles. They neglect my niece terribly and my brother's youngest boy, the high school senior, has moved out. His father is losing interest in dealing with real world issues such as helping his son get ready for college, making sure niece is getting an education, spending time with people in settings other than SCA, and is on the edge of being fired. During the event in Holly this summer/autumn, he failed to show up for work twice because he couldn't bring himself to leave the Renaissance Fair. SIL spends most of her day perfecting her music skills for a role as a medieval musician that she is hoping to take on and niece is left to her own devices for hours, even days on end. They are increasingly shutting out anyone who does not get involved in SCA and are VERY angry that dh and I have not shown interest in joining their group.

 

They do not act weird at the grocery store, etc. However, we things are slowly moving that way. My mom just had surgery and they could not even be engaged in a discussion about mom's health, what needed to be done for her after the surgery, etc. If you aren't willing to talk ad nauseum about SCA, then they aren't willing to engage in conversation. Though they've tried to appear "normal" to everyone else but their extended family, it is becoming noticeable. I have had a lady in the community express to me that if things get worse, she'll call CPS because of neglect of niece. So, despite our earlier assertions that we would not be raising niece for them, there is an excellent chance she will eventually come to live with us because of this.

 

Faith

 

 

Faith, I'm so sorry to hear about this. I sort of felt the same way after my brother's explanation that we didn't know him. They were royalty for 3 years (baron and baroness) and that's all they did for that time period. So I think the attitude rubbed off. Expected us to react as serfs from his kingdom or something like that. I guess there's a fine line between addiction and obsession.

[Catwoman]

Wow, Faith. I'm so sorry you have to stand by and watch your brother and his wife sink into some sort of weird new reality. I feel so sorry for the children. :(

 

When Robin posted about her brother's new lifestyle, that's pretty much what I was picturing -- and it's very disturbing.

 

It's so strange to me that people could get involved in something like this SCA organization (or any other group) to such a dangerous extent. I guess it's sort of like any addiction or obsession, but because it's almost like morphing into an entirely new reality, it strikes me as incredibly bizarre -- and the idea that both partners in a marriage (or all three of them... :rolleyes:) would be into something so outside the norm, is even stranger, because I would think that under most circumstances, one partner would start to develop an unhealthy obsession with it, and the other one would say, "Ummm... Bob... you're starting to act like a real nut. Knock it off."

Edited October 7, 2012 by Catwoman

[Catwoman]

Faith, I'm so sorry to hear about this. I sort of felt the same way after my brother's explanation that we didn't know him. They were royalty for 3 years (baron and baroness) and that's all they did for that time period. So I think the attitude rubbed off. Expected us to react as serfs from his kingdom or something like that. I guess there's a fine line between addiction and obsession.

 

Very scary stuff, Robin.

 

The third wife thing is starting to sound like it might actually be the lesser of your brother's issues. It sounds like he's starting to lose his grip on reality, and unfortunately, there's not much you can do to help him because he doesn't think anything is wrong.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Catwoman

[Robin M]

Very scary stuff, Robin.

 

The third wife thing is starting to sound like it might actually be the lesser of your brother's issues. It sounds like he's starting to lose his grip on reality, and unfortunately, there's not much you can do to help him because he doesn't think anything is wrong.

 

 

I know. You would think the fact my father and mother are no longer speaking to him would have had an affect. Been a wake up call of sorts. But I guess when you are living in a fantasy world, your perception is skewed. My sisters and I have all be discussing this and the only thing we can think to do which will really give him a dose of reality is to stand by our convictions. The deal is I'm thinking, my sisters as well, that by continuing contact, they are taking it as an acceptance of their lifestyle.

 

After speaking with my sil, it was clear she had the choice to say no to my brother and life would had gone on as it was. She choose to say yes to this new relationship so she's just as culpable as my brother.

 

Unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional acceptance. They are still welcome in our life, but D isn't. And since they have made it clear they are a unit and won't do family events without her, that just means they won't be invited. I'll be there for them if or when they decide to go back to just to the two of them or when my SIL decides she's had enough and needs an out. They've made a choice and told us we have to live with it. They can live their life anyway they want too, we just don't have to be a part of it. We all have choices, right.

 

He says my words hold the most weight because we were the closest growing up and he respects my opinion. So... At some point I have to stand by my convictions, no matter how hard it may be.

[Catwoman]

I know. You would think the fact my father and mother are no longer speaking to him would have had an affect. Been a wake up call of sorts. But I guess when you are living in a fantasy world, your perception is skewed. My sisters and I have all be discussing this and the only thing we can think to do which will really give him a dose of reality is to stand by our convictions. The deal is I'm thinking, my sisters as well, that by continuing contact, they are taking it as an acceptance of their lifestyle.

 

After speaking with my sil, it was clear she had the choice to say no to my brother and life would had gone on as it was. She choose to say yes to this new relationship so she's just as culpable as my brother.

 

Unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional acceptance. They are still welcome in our life, but D isn't. And since they have made it clear they are a unit and won't do family events without her, that just means they won't be invited. I'll be there for them if or when they decide to go back to just to the two of them or when my SIL decides she's had enough and needs an out. They've made a choice and told us we have to live with it. They can live their life anyway they want too, we just don't have to be a part of it. We all have choices, right.

 

He says my words hold the most weight because we were the closest growing up and he respects my opinion. So... At some point I have to stand by my convictions, no matter how hard it may be.

 

Ultimately, you need to do what feels right to you, not what someone else might say is the politically correct thing to do. Can you meet with your brother in person and calmly explain your decision to him?

 

As you said, they made a choice and told you that you had to live with it, so now you're making your choice and they'll have to live with that, too.

 

It's very sad, but if you and your sisters are all on the same page with this, I can only assume that you are doing the right thing for your family. You're leaving the door open, so hopefully at some point, there will be a reconciliation.

 

I'm so sorry. :(

Edited October 7, 2012 by Catwoman

[GailV]

Very scary stuff, Robin.

 

The third wife thing is starting to sound like it might actually be the lesser of your brother's issues. It sounds like he's starting to lose his grip on reality, and unfortunately, there's not much you can do to help him because he doesn't think anything is wrong.

 

That's what struck me about all of this. You said he was surprised that your parents weren't instantly accepting of the new relationship, which I took to mean that he's so deep into his alternate version of the world that he's forgotten that it isn't real. And I was starting to think your dad was wise to withdraw his money from the investments your brother had some hand in (I'm only vaguely remembering this part of the story) because I wonder if it's all starting to influence his abilities on the job.

 

(I spent a lot of yesterday toting kids around various places and sitting in the car staring into space, think odd thoughts, so I probably pondered this whole thing way more than I needed to.)

 

I am *SO* glad the door is still open. So far it sounds as though you're handling it in the best way -- firm, kind, consistent.

[Zebra]

I just checked out the SCA (well, OK, their home page, but I clicked on the link, so that counts, right?) and it wasn't at all what I was expecting. I was thinking it might be some sort of religious cult.

 

Maybe it's more of a Renaissance Faire Cult? :tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously, I have no idea why this would be a "lifestyle" for anyone. It seems like more of a silly, fun, masquerade party kind of thing.

 

Clearly, I don't get out much.

 

And I'm starting to feel pretty OK with not getting out much. :D

 

 

Me too! This makes me feel better about my boring life :lol:!

 

Your brother has a right to live his life however he wants. You have a right to cut off or limit contact with him. You also have a right to completely disagree with him and still continue a relationship with him. He's an adult, and you're an adult. Whatever you feel comfortable with, you should do.

Edited October 7, 2012 by MeAmy

[Laurie4b]

My brother and his wife, at this point, do not act their roles outside of their home, but they are increasingly shutting out the real world in order to spend more time perfecting these roles. They neglect my niece terribly and my brother's youngest boy, the high school senior, has moved out. His father is losing interest in dealing with real world issues such as helping his son get ready for college, making sure niece is getting an education, spending time with people in settings other than SCA, and is on the edge of being fired. During the event in Holly this summer/autumn, he failed to show up for work twice because he couldn't bring himself to leave the Renaissance Fair. SIL spends most of her day perfecting her music skills for a role as a medieval musician that she is hoping to take on and niece is left to her own devices for hours, even days on end. They are increasingly shutting out anyone who does not get involved in SCA and are VERY angry that dh and I have not shown interest in joining their group.

 

They do not act weird at the grocery store, etc. However, we things are slowly moving that way. My mom just had surgery and they could not even be engaged in a discussion about mom's health, what needed to be done for her after the surgery, etc. If you aren't willing to talk ad nauseum about SCA, then they aren't willing to engage in conversation. Though they've tried to appear "normal" to everyone else but their extended family, it is becoming noticeable. I have had a lady in the community express to me that if things get worse, she'll call CPS because of neglect of niece. So, despite our earlier assertions that we would not be raising niece for them, there is an excellent chance she will eventually come to live with us because of this.

 

Faith

 

Just a personal note and you may already know this: the CPS departments I'm familiar with would not place a child with a relative who knew about the abuse or neglect and didn't call CPS. If it gets more than borderline then if you don't report it, CPS will view you as complicit. (It is probably okay if they are providing food, shelter, and supervision; it is neglect if they are literally leaving an 11 year old for days at a time.) She'll be placed with another family member who didn't know or with a CPS foster family. Some foster families are wonderful. That is not the case for all of them.

[Scarlett]

I know. You would think the fact my father and mother are no longer speaking to him would have had an affect. Been a wake up call of sorts. But I guess when you are living in a fantasy world, your perception is skewed. My sisters and I have all be discussing this and the only thing we can think to do which will really give him a dose of reality is to stand by our convictions. The deal is I'm thinking, my sisters as well, that by continuing contact, they are taking it as an acceptance of their lifestyle.

 

After speaking with my sil, it was clear she had the choice to say no to my brother and life would had gone on as it was. She choose to say yes to this new relationship so she's just as culpable as my brother.

 

Unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional acceptance. They are still welcome in our life, but D isn't. And since they have made it clear they are a unit and won't do family events without her, that just means they won't be invited. I'll be there for them if or when they decide to go back to just to the two of them or when my SIL decides she's had enough and needs an out. They've made a choice and told us we have to live with it. They can live their life anyway they want too, we just don't have to be a part of it. We all have choices, right.

 

He says my words hold the most weight because we were the closest growing up and he respects my opinion. So... At some point I have to stand by my convictions, no matter how hard it may be.

 

:iagree:

[Rosie_0801]

Have you considered talking to their king and queen? If they are any good at their job they'll try to do something about the beyond extreme levels of enthusiasm. If they're not, try again in six months when there's a new set.

 

Rosie

[FaithManor]

Just a personal note and you may already know this: the CPS departments I'm familiar with would not place a child with a relative who knew about the abuse or neglect and didn't call CPS. If it gets more than borderline then if you don't report it, CPS will view you as complicit. (It is probably okay if they are providing food, shelter, and supervision; it is neglect if they are literally leaving an 11 year old for days at a time.) She'll be placed with another family member who didn't know or with a CPS foster family. Some foster families are wonderful. That is not the case for all of them.

 

Oh, we've reported and more than once. She's 11 and they still manage what is, I guess, the minimum level of crappy needed to keep her out of care. Their addiction/obsession has made them into very good actors. :glare:

 

At some point, doing the minimum for her will become too much work for them (to listen to SIL talk, it's obvious that having a child is a real thorn in her flesh at the present time) and they'll ask for her to live with us. They once went through a similar thing with their other daughter - now a grown woman and completely estranged from them - and lived with us (we had temporary guardianship) for a year. She went back and it was a disaster. If I take this child, I won't be naive enough to turn her over when the temporary guardianship expires...they'll sign her over to us permanently or have a fight on their hands. I won't make that mistake twice!

 

For what it is worth, I think this all began with my SIL who has been diagnosed as a narcissist with some other scary things I won't name here. She refuses to take her meds, because ya know...after all....it's everyone else's problem not hers, she's perfect! :001_huh::tongue_smilie::banghead: This role playing thing really seems to feed her narcissism and I think my brother finds she's easier to get along with when he follows along (how I feel about that cannot be expressed in polite company with any of the smilies presented for use on this forum). His obsession/addiction may not run as deep as hers, however he totally enables it and is now in serious trouble with his boss. I don't have any patience with him anymore.

 

But, yes, we've spoken with CPS in the past. As long as they are not in violation of education law, she is not starving to death, does not come down with a serious/deadly medical crisis they refuse to attend to, or in some other mortal danger, CPS is not interested though I'm sure the well meaning neighbor has no idea that is the case. They've got enough on their hands without enough foster beds in this county as it is. They aren't looking to take more kids into care. But, we do have a sort of ongoing relationship with them. They are also aware that our other niece lived with us for a year because she had been suicidal (and nearly successful) with her parents.

 

As for SIL, she's not been speaking to me for two months and armed herself recently for an all out narcy fight with me. It didn't work. She did not get the attention she wanted and so she's back to not speaking to me. But, she regularly sends niece over here to ask if she can visit and then gets in the car and heads to her SCA events without waiting to even see if I'm home. I'm letting it go because it's evidence in my favor and we journal these episodes in detail.

 

Faith

[Catwoman]

Have you considered talking to their king and queen? If they are any good at their job they'll try to do something about the beyond extreme levels of enthusiasm. If they're not, try again in six months when there's a new set.

 

Rosie

 

That's a very interesting idea, Rosie -- I had no idea that the hierarchy of this organization was so organized and serious in terms of leadership. How would Robin find out whom to call?

 

I think speaking with the leadership would help Robin determine whether or not her brother's behavior is typical of their local group as a whole, or if he and his "wives" are an anomaly. If the king and queen think he's taking things too far, their words might mean a lot more to him than those of his parents or sisters, because he seems to believe that the SCA is his family now.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Have you considered talking to their king and queen? If they are any good at their job they'll try to do something about the beyond extreme levels of enthusiasm. If they're not, try again in six months when there's a new set.

 

Rosie

 

Is that really how it works? There's an actual hierarchy, and those in "power" have influence? If so, I had no idea! I really thought it was more of a club.

[Catwoman]

Is that really how it works? There's an actual hierarchy, and those in "power" have influence? If so, I had no idea! I really thought it was more of a club.

 

I did, too. I thought they mostly planned Renaissance Faires to raise money for charity or something. I didn't realize that they did the whole playacting and costume stuff at other times, and it certainly never occurred to me that anyone would think of it as a lifestyle choice.

 

I thought it was all for fun and laughs. I had no clue that it was a serious thing for anyone.

 

If I joined a group and they introduced me to their king and queen, I probably wouldn't be able to stop giggling, but that's just me. I'm not really into fantasy play-acting stuff. I'm sure other people have a lot of fun with it, though.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I did, too. I thought they mostly planned Renaissance Faires to raise money for charity or something. I didn't realize that they did the whole playacting and costume stuff at other times, and it certainly never occurred to me that anyone would think of it as a lifestyle choice.

 

I thought it was all for fun and laughs. I had no clue that it was a serious thing for anyone.

 

If I joined a group and they introduced me to their king and queen, I probably wouldn't be able to stop giggling, but that's just me. I'm not really into fantasy play-acting stuff. I'm sure other people have a lot of fun with it, though.

 

I guess I kind of knew it was more of a lifestyle choice. I mean, I know people who live and breathe roller derby, for example--read about RD, hang out RD team members and friends, own RD-related clothing, have lots of get-togethers with RD people, travel out of state to go to events, and so on. I imagined SCA is like any other really involved hobby. But I didn't envision it as like, the Moose lodge or the Masons, with elders and rankings that actually meant something, and with those people wielding power in other members' personal lives. Or, maybe, it almost sounds like some people would describe a church hierarchy, I guess?

 

I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well--I'm trying to find comparisons that work. And I'm not denigrating the SCA at all, I love Renaissance Faires, and there was a time when I would have been involved in all that. I can see the appeal, truly. I just didn't know it went beyond that. And maybe it doesn't for most people? I'm truly intrigued.

 

ETA: And it's also possible I'm completely misunderstanding what Rosie said, of course!

Edited October 7, 2012 by Sweet Morning Air

[Zebra]

Have you considered talking to their king and queen? If they are any good at their job they'll try to do something about the beyond extreme levels of enthusiasm. If they're not, try again in six months when there's a new set.

 

Rosie

 

 

(I took this as sarcasm...but I could be wrong!)

[Catwoman]

(I took this as sarcasm...but I could be wrong!)

 

I don't think it is... :leaving:

[TranquilMind]

:iagree: These are all consenting adults.

 

 

 

That's irrelevant. Consent does not change the meaning of adultery.

 

But whatever....

 

I just found that whole "adultery is a fluid term" business funny. Sounds like the kind of lines that tenant applicants come up with. "Paying the rent on time" is sort of a fluid concept for me. Well, not for me, pal. Rent is paid in full on or before the first or out you two pixies go, out the door or out the window!"

 

(Sorry, momentary Frank Capra flashback there)

 

No, adultery is adultery, and it doesn't change the meaning to say that you consent to it. It is still sexual/emotional involvement outside the marriage vows.

 

Ok. Back to your usual programming.

[FaithManor]

I just discovered there is a website, Infinite Hearts, that is a support group for SCA polyamorous relationships. I didn't go into the site and instead just read the description.

 

Faith

[TranquilMind]

FaithManor: This is what would concern me. In the last two years, my brother and sil have gotten HEAVILY involved in SCA and to their detriment. Now, that's not the organization's fault. My brother and SIL have taken it to an unhealthy extreme all by themselves. At this point, neglecting my niece SIGNIFICANTLY in order to live their fantasy life is their new "norm".

 

That would be frightening.

 

Therefore, OP, I think the greater issue is that if they have adopted a "new" reality and the polyamorous relationship is just a manifestation of a deeper psychological issue, that is where my concern would be.

 

This. I guess time will tell, and I pray it all works out for the kids. I can't imagine that wouldn't be traumatic.

 

 

I'd want to keep communication with your SIL open, but I would not want this new threesome spending time with my children. If I could find a way to meet them for dinner regularly at restaurants and the like, I definitely would.

 

Me too.

 

 

 

Faith

[Scrub Jay]

 

No, adultery is adultery, and it doesn't change the meaning to say that you consent to it. It is still sexual/emotional involvement outside the marriage vows.

 

 

If the actual couple are both consenting then your definition of adultery really has no influence over theirs.

[TranquilMind]

Mytwoblessing: You would think the fact my father and mother are no longer speaking to him would have had an affect. Been a wake up call of sorts.

 

You'd think. But rationalization is a very strong thing. Everyone who has ever cut off parents believes that the other just "doesn't understand" and is "toxic", never seeing a role of their own in the whole mess.

 

But I guess when you are living in a fantasy world, your perception is skewed. My sisters and I have all be discussing this and the only thing we can think to do which will really give him a dose of reality is to stand by our convictions.

 

I don't know. Rationalization doesn't die easily.

 

 

The deal is I'm thinking, my sisters as well, that by continuing contact, they are taking it as an acceptance of their lifestyle.

 

I don't know. Maybe they are just showing love. It's hard to show love in this day and age without capitulating into full acceptance. It's the political spirit and the lie of the day: "You don't "love" me if you don't wholeheartedly accept, love and promote everything I am doing"

 

 

Unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional acceptance. They are still welcome in our life, but D isn't. And since they have made it clear they are a unit and won't do family events without her, that just means they won't be invited.

 

I'd probably invite them. No harm in that. That doesn't mean you agree. Of course, if he wants to be a jerk about it, he won't accept and invitation to "Mr and Mrs. X". He will demand that you write it to, "Mr. and Mrs. and Mrs. X".

 

He says my words hold the most weight because we were the closest growing up and he respects my opinion. So... At some point I have to stand by my convictions, no matter how hard it may be.

 

Can you stand by your convictions while not overtly excluding the other person? Time will take down this arrangement, most likely. If he values you, then you can be there for him.

[TranquilMind]

If the actual couple are both consenting then your definition of adultery really has no influence over theirs.

 

I didn't write the definition. You can find it in the dictionary. It is what it is, though political trends being the way they are, I'm sure we will redefine the concept "adultery" soon too.

[Scrub Jay]

I didn't write the definition. You can find it in the dictionary. It is what it is, though political trends being the way they are, I'm sure we will redefine the concept "adultery" soon too.

 

True. I have no problem with that. DH and I would not be interested in that kind of lifestyle but it's not my business to label people who are.

[Rosie_0801]

That's a very interesting idea, Rosie -- I had no idea that the hierarchy of this organization was so organized and serious in terms of leadership.

 

Oh yes it is. In theory, it definitely is. This is an organisation that, not just on paper, is about honour. Unfortunately, in practice, you get flakes and crazies just like you do anywhere.

 

How would Robin find out whom to call?

 

Start here: http://sca.org/geography/

It won't be too difficult to find who the current royals are. I recommend going to the King and Queen as the OP's rellies have been Baron and Baroness and their current B&B are probably good friends. Chances are, if they've been playing 25 years (not unusual, btw) they know the King and Queen too, but that's as high as you can go.

 

I think speaking with the leadership would help Robin determine whether or not her brother's behavior is typical of their local group as a whole, or if he and his "wives" are an anomaly. If the king and queen think he's taking things too far, their words might mean a lot more to him than those of his parents or sisters, because he seems to believe that the SCA is his family now.

 

That's what I'd be hoping for, yes. They won't do anything about the polyamory, but they should care about the unhealthy level of involvement if they perceive it to be unhealthy. We don't know. This may be comparable to people devoting all their spare time to church or those that live and breathe football, kwim? Kind of annoying or weird to outsiders, but hardly a pathology. Justamouse's (was it Justamouse?) relatives are obviously wayyyyyy beyond that, but the OP's might not be. If Robin contacts the royals and doesn't get anywhere, she would be able to dig around on their website and find the laws governing their job description. They might provide a bit of a kick up the bum if needed. And, as I said, they change every six months so she could try again. Royals rule by consent of the populace, but they do have a few big sticks to swing if they (and their advisors) feel it is justified.

 

Is that really how it works? There's an actual hierarchy, and those in "power" have influence? If so, I had no idea! I really thought it was more of a club.

 

It's both. Remember, it's based on the Middle Ages, and you don't get the Middle Ages experience without feudalism. :)

 

I can't promise Robin will get anywhere, but she should get the insiders perspective and it is the royals job to care about these issues. I'm a nobody in the SCA yet the Queen and I once worked together to sort out a local dispute that popped up on FB.

 

I did, too. I thought they mostly planned Renaissance Faires to raise money for charity or something.

 

Nope. Ren Faires are a different mob.

 

I didn't realize that they did the whole playacting and costume stuff at other times, and it certainly never occurred to me that anyone would think of it as a lifestyle choice.

 

Unless people are being ridiculous, it's a lifestyle choice the same way as any other hobby one devotes time and money to. We don't freak out that people coach basketball four nights a week and spend their weekends driving across the state for games.

 

I thought it was all for fun and laughs. I had no clue that it was a serious thing for anyone.

 

Fun and laughs can be serious! :tongue_smilie: Serious can be fun and laughs. :tongue_smilie:

 

If I joined a group and they introduced me to their king and queen, I probably wouldn't be able to stop giggling, but that's just me. I'm not really into fantasy play-acting stuff. I'm sure other people have a lot of fun with it, though.

 

There can be a bit of culture shock. :D But you wouldn't join such a group because you wouldn't find it fun. Some people in the SCA are acting in a persona, some are acting like themselves but wearing better frocks. It's a complex hobby, but it's just a hobby. Geeks have to hang out somewhere. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Nope. Ren Faires are a different mob.

Rosie

 

Really! Here, our Ren Fair pages seem to always link to an SCA site, so maybe the two intertwine sometimes? Not long ago, I was delving into the local organization's web site because the local Ren Fair page mentioned dedicating something (can't recall what) to a member who'd passed away. Investigating that took me over to the local SCA page for the Barony of So-and-So, and I spent a little time there. So I always thought the SCA and Ren Fairs were connected too.

 

Geeks have to hang out somewhere. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

:lol: So true.

[Zebra]

I don't think it is... :leaving:

 

Well, I am glad I am still learning stuff even at my advanced age ;)!

 

I would have thought homeschooling was a pretty weird lifestyle too before I "joined" it :lol:!!!

[Rosie_0801]

Really! Here, our Ren Fair pages seem to always link to an SCA site, so maybe the two intertwine sometimes? Not long ago, I was delving into the local organization's web site because the local Ren Fair page mentioned dedicating something (can't recall what) to a member who'd passed away. Investigating that took me over to the local SCA page for the Barony of So-and-So, and I spent a little time there. So I always thought the SCA and Ren Fairs were connected too.

 

There's probably a cross over in population. We don't have Ren Faires here, but there's a cross over between the larp and SCA communities. Our baron and baroness don't have kids so they have time to do both.

 

If you have a problem with the SCAers dressing up, at least we are still dressing up as humans. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie

[WIS0320]

They are increasingly shutting out anyone who does not get involved in SCA and are VERY angry that dh and I have not shown interest in joining their group.

 

Faith

 

That sounds really unfortunate. I am so sorry. I hope all ends up well for your niece and that her parents decide to check back into being a part of her life.

[WIS0320]

Unless people are being ridiculous, it's a lifestyle choice the same way as any other hobby one devotes time and money to. We don't freak out that people coach basketball four nights a week and spend their weekends driving across the state for games.

 

Rosie

 

I spent a little time reading the FAQ (or whatever the equivalent doc is) over at SCA and the whole thing actually sounds really fun! Not that I have time or the $ to put into something that like but it features the fun I had playing MMORPG's without having to constantly quest and fight. :tongue_smilie:

 

I can see how something like this group could become an addiction just the same way that I know people who are seriously addicted to gaming and cannot seem to come back to reality.

[Joanne]

There's probably a cross over in population. We don't have Ren Faires here, but there's a cross over between the larp and SCA communities. Our baron and baroness don't have kids so they have time to do both.

 

If you have a problem with the SCAers dressing up, at least we are still dressing up as humans. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie

 

Shall we talk about furries? :lol::lurk5:

[GailV]

If you have a problem with the SCAers dressing up, at least we are still dressing up as humans. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie

 

Aaaaand, this is the point in the discussion in which I remembered that couple who had a baby and tried to raise it speaking only Klingon. I think that's a bit over-enthusiastic in the cosplay department, ahem.

[Catwoman]

 

If you have a problem with the SCAers dressing up, at least we are still dressing up as humans. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie

 

So basically, you're saying that Klingons need not apply? :tongue_smilie:

[Catwoman]

Aaaaand, this is the point in the discussion in which I remembered that couple who had a baby and tried to raise it speaking only Klingon. I think that's a bit over-enthusiastic in the cosplay department, ahem.

 

That's so funny! I was typing a post about Klingons while you were posting yours! :D

[Rosie_0801]

Shall we talk about furries? :lol::lurk5:

 

Phew. You didn't mean what I thought you meant. :eek:

 

Aaaaand, this is the point in the discussion in which I remembered that couple who had a baby and tried to raise it speaking only Klingon. I think that's a bit over-enthusiastic in the cosplay department, ahem.

 

:blink:

That would be terribly cool if they were characters in a book. Wow. Now I'm really curious how it turned out and wish it was a book so I could purchase the sequel!

 

So basically, you're saying that Klingons need not apply? :tongue_smilie:

 

Well they could. We try to be inclusive, ya know. But they would have to dress up like medieval humans. They seem the type to have their own organisation, don't they? Not really joiners?

 

:lol:

Rosie

[Catwoman]

Oh yes it is. In theory, it definitely is. This is an organisation that, not just on paper, is about honour. Unfortunately, in practice, you get flakes and crazies just like you do anywhere.

 

I remember when my brother was alive and coaching several kids' sports teams, he said he met more insane parents at those games than he ever knew existed on the planet. He would remind them that it was just a game and that it was supposed to be fun, and they'd look at him like :eek:

 

 

Nope. Ren Faires are a different mob.

 

Sorry I'm so clueless about this! :blush:

 

 

Unless people are being ridiculous, it's a lifestyle choice the same way as any other hobby one devotes time and money to. We don't freak out that people coach basketball four nights a week and spend their weekends driving across the state for games.

 

I think it's like anything that people do. Some people can spend a lot of time and money on a hobby or an activity, and they still view it as a hobby, while there's a small percentage of people who become fanatical about it and who eat, sleep, live, and breathe that same hobby until it starts to affect their real life to the point where the hobby is their new reality.

 

I guess the difference here is probably because things like costumes are seen as being different from wearing a football team jacket or something. We knew a guy who was absolutely obsessed with football. He even had his entire office decorated with team memorabilia. He talked about nothing else, unless it was work-related, and he was absolutely obsessed with his fantasy football league. But you're right, Rosie -- people thought he was sports-crazed, but they didn't see it as being a big deal. (Well, my dh stopped hanging around with him because he thought he was getting really weird, but then again, my dh isn't into football!) OTOH, if the guy shown up at the office in a costume one day, it would have been more like, "Hey Bill... ummm... what's up with the boots and the breeches?" and they would have been ready to have him committed for psychological observation. But he got away with it because it was "just sports." Not fair at all, when you think about it.

 

Thanks for all of the info on this stuff, Rosie -- it actually sounds pretty cool, although I probably wouldn't go any farther than renting a costume and going to someone's party or a faire or something like that. I can see how it would be fun if you were with the right group of people, though -- although if some of the people thought it was "real," like we've heard about in this thread, I think that would creep me out.

[Catwoman]

Well they could. We try to be inclusive, ya know. But they would have to dress up like medieval humans. They seem the type to have their own organisation, don't they? Not really joiners?

 

:lol:

Rosie

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I went to a Star Trek convention once with a friend, and it was like I'd been beamed into a whole different world...

[WishboneDawn]

Shall we talk about furries? :lol::lurk5:

 

You had to go there. :glare:

 

:D

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Shall we talk about furries? :lol::lurk5:

 

They was the first thing I thought of! That was the most enlightening CSI episode I'd ever seen :001_huh:

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Aaaaand, this is the point in the discussion in which I remembered that couple who had a baby and tried to raise it speaking only Klingon. I think that's a bit over-enthusiastic in the cosplay department, ahem.

 

I had a friend who got the Klingon translation of Hamlet for a birthday present. :D

 

They was the first thing I thought of! That was the most enlightening CSI episode I'd ever seen :001_huh:

 

:lol: That's how I know about them, too!

[GailV]

:blink:

That would be terribly cool if they were characters in a book. Wow. Now I'm really curious how it turned out and wish it was a book so I could purchase the sequel!

 

 

Oh, it was apparently only the dad. The mom spoke English. Huff Post article on it.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Oh, it was apparently only the dad. The mom spoke English. Huff Post article on it.

 

Well, that IS how you raise a bilingual child, silly.

[Trish]

I know. You would think the fact my father and mother are no longer speaking to him would have had an affect. Been a wake up call of sorts. But I guess when you are living in a fantasy world, your perception is skewed. My sisters and I have all be discussing this and the only thing we can think to do which will really give him a dose of reality is to stand by our convictions. The deal is I'm thinking, my sisters as well, that by continuing contact, they are taking it as an acceptance of their lifestyle.

 

After speaking with my sil, it was clear she had the choice to say no to my brother and life would had gone on as it was. She choose to say yes to this new relationship so she's just as culpable as my brother.

 

Unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional acceptance. They are still welcome in our life, but D isn't. And since they have made it clear they are a unit and won't do family events without her, that just means they won't be invited. I'll be there for them if or when they decide to go back to just to the two of them or when my SIL decides she's had enough and needs an out. They've made a choice and told us we have to live with it. They can live their life anyway they want too, we just don't have to be a part of it. We all have choices, right.

 

He says my words hold the most weight because we were the closest growing up and he respects my opinion. So... At some point I have to stand by my convictions, no matter how hard it may be.

 

I would probably react the same way you are. (and I do agree this is harmful, and I'd want to limit my kids' exposure to it)

 

At the same time, how is it different from accepting a gay sibling, or one who is divorced and remarried if your religion is against those things? I guess I'm just asking theoretically why this is "worse" -- is it just because it's socially unacceptable?

[Robin M]

I would probably react the same way you are. (and I do agree this is harmful, and I'd want to limit my kids' exposure to it)

 

At the same time, how is it different from accepting a gay sibling, or one who is divorced and remarried if your religion is against those things? I guess I'm just asking theoretically why this is "worse" -- is it just because it's socially unacceptable?

 

 

His choice is morally unacceptable to me. Plus these types of relationships are against the law in AZ. So it's an issue. His employer has a morals clause and he stands to lose his job if it gets out.

 

I really can't compare it to a gay sibling which even though it may sound strange, I'd have an easier time accepting. And I don't have an issue with divorce..two of my sisters are divorced. One's happily remarried. Both their ex's were emotionally abusive.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Mytwoblessings