Ohdanigirl Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Ok, I had no idea where to post this, so here it goes. If your friend, child, or someone else you cared for asked for advice on this question what would you say? A third tier law school in their town has offered them a full scholarship based on test scores and grades. It is for all three years. Said person has the grades and scores to get into a higher end tier 2, and some tier 1's. What would be your first reaction? What questions should they ask themselves, or answer for you if you don't know what to suggest? Thanks. Danielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Just remember that the time is an investment, just as much as the money. If it's the only way it can happen, then so be it. But don't hesitate to check out the other options as well, and see what financial aid offers they may make. Shoot for the stars, but have a back-up plan. Apply to all three tiers and see how it plays out once the offers are on the table. Some negotiation may be possible, especially if the other offers are available for comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) Take the free ride, unless money is of absolutely no consideration or the kid is certain to graduate near the top of his class at the "better" school (and thus, probably get a better job offer,) because unless the kid will get some serious financial assistance from the "better" schools, paying back all of the student loans can be a real nuisance. If the kid wants to go to a better school, by all means, the kid should go ahead and apply, and go through the process to see if he or she can get a good financial package from the better school. Personally, I think that if the kid was already offered a free ride at a 3rd tier school, he or she will probably be pretty desirable to the better schools, as well, but you can never really count on how much money will be offered. He or she also needs to consider career options after graduation, as the opportunities at a "better" school may be more lucrative, but the kid also needs to remember that the really great jobs are going to go to the kids at the top of the class, not the "average" ones, no matter how impressive the school's reputation. It may end up being better at the top of the class of the 3rd tier school, than in the middle or lower end of the top tier school. Edited August 17, 2012 by Catwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 There is a GLUT of lawyers out there right now. I know many good, new attorneys who are doing paralegal work or worse because there are so many. I know the internet is filled with articles about it. So if this person got a full ride to a third tier, I would recommend looking into what the top schools have to offer and see what the full, real cost differential would be. But I would seriously sit down and research the law as a profession right now and pinpoint exactly what kind of law degree and where the best chance of achieving that degree will come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASDAQ Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I am a lawyer. I would not attend law school right now unless it was a first tier school. Period. No way would I attend a second or third tier school, not for free, not if they paid me. There are plenty of lawyers and even the decision to go to a first tier school should be considered very, very carefully. A school that isn't first tier is a total waste of his time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
learningmama Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) I am a lawyer. I would not attend law school right now unless it was a first tier school. Period. No way would I attend a second or third tier school, not for free, not if they paid me. There are plenty of lawyers and even the decision to go to a first tier school should be considered very, very carefully. A school that isn't first tier is a total waste of his time. Sorry to disagree, but as dh is in a "lower tier law school", this sentiment is a bit much. Not everyone can or wants to attend a "top ranked" school. Even a first tier school is not a free ticket to a perfect job in the future. A school name can only do so much for someone, the rest is up to the individual in the long run. Original Poster: law rankings, grades, job prospects are VERY controversial sore spots for almost all law students. In this economy especially, going to law school is difficult. If it is something the student has an absolute passion for, I would say go for it. That being said, there are a few considerations: - Does the student have any legal connections? (family/friends who are lawyers or in law school) This can aid greatly in law school success and finding future internships and employment - When it comes to scholarships, students can lose them after the first year. Some schools lure students in using full rides and then require a pretty high GPA to keep it during the 2L and 3L years. Law grades are NOT like undergrad grades. Students fear getting their grades because they just never know how it will turn out- even after they put in their best effort. It would be very rough to lose that full-ride. Edited August 17, 2012 by learningmama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohdanigirl Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Thank you for your responses. I have been thinking about getting my Masters, but have been putting it off because of the current economic situation. I see no reason to take on any unneeded debt. Out of college, though, I took the LSAT and was immediately offered full rides at a few tier 3 schools. At the moment I was getting a lot of outside pressure to continue on, but I chose to wait, and stay home with my dc. I didn't have the greatest feeling about the economy. Well, it crashed, and many of my friends who went on to Law School now work as paralegals, or other non-legal jobs just to pay off their loans. As a result, I have come to believe that Law school is not the best choice at the moment. Any how, it recently came up in conversation. I casually mentioned that I may still get my Masters in a few years, and the reaction was pretty harsh. It seems many people feel I chose wrong. If I was going to continue my education any ways, I should have done it then type of thing. I feel I did the best for my family. Also, I did an internship with a Ca State Senator, and he and I spoke about it once. We agreed that even if I left the professional world, I could return, do a couple internships, and then land a great job, or use it to build my Grad School ap. My critics don't seem to understand that. Frankly I am tired of hearing it. Danielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobela Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 My cousin graduated from a second or third tier and has done just fine. Her hard work, setting goals, and networking have made her very, very successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASDAQ Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Sorry to disagree, but as dh is in a "lower tier law school", this sentiment is a bit much. Not everyone can or wants to attend a "top ranked" school. Even a first tier school is not a free ticket to a perfect job in the future. A school name can only do so much for someone, the rest is up to the individual in the long run. Not everyone can attend a first tier law school (which isn't a "top school" necessarily; Lots of first tiers aren't Yale.) But in this economy, if you can't attend a first tier school, I would be hesitant to go at all. Even if you can attend a top school, it isn't necessarily a good investment. Most or all graduates of tier one schools will find a job as a lawyer, which is about all we can ask in 2012. The market for lawyers in the US sucks. Americans train a huge number of them at the best of times. These are not the best of times. An awful lot of people are having depressed employment prospects and using the time to go back to school, making the problem worse. If you desperately want to be a lawyer (I have no idea why -- is that too cynical? -- law is my and my husband's family business, so cynicism is bred in the bone) you should take the avenue that will expose you to the best legal opportunities. The best lawyers and firms are taking their young associates from the best schools. If you absolutely can't attend a first tier school and you desperately want to be a lawyer anyway, well, that's not the situation the OP presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BugsMama Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Make sure it is ABA approved. It doesn't matter if he can sit for the bar, or that he'll get his JD if it isn't ABA approved. Some schools in CA will do this, and it leaves you with few options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I am a lawyer. I would not attend law school right now unless it was a first tier school. Period. No way would I attend a second or third tier school, not for free, not if they paid me. There are plenty of lawyers and even the decision to go to a first tier school should be considered very, very carefully. A school that isn't first tier is a total waste of his time. I think this largely depends upon the area of law. My uncle graduated from a tier 2 law school, but he also has 2 engineering degrees and works as a patent lawyer. He graduated first in his class. He had several companies competing for him the minute he graduated. He works for a large Japanese firm, filing patents in DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Wow. :001_huh: I'm sensing a lot of anti-law school sentiment here. My impression was that the kid has already made the decision to go to law school, and that he or she is trying to make the most sensible choice about where to study. I don't think it's at all fair to assume that this kid will end up working as a paralegal, or that he or she won't be able to find a job. For all we know, this kid could be absolutely brilliant and graduate at the top of his or her class in law school. We have several attorneys in our family, and they are all very successful, even the young ones, so opportunities do exist. Let's face it, there aren't very many professions where your future success is guaranteed. If this kid truly wants to be an attorney, I think he or she should go for it. No matter what the future holds in terms of a career, an education in law can be tremendously beneficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristineW Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) What do they want to do with their law degree? What is the local reputation of the third-tier law school? Who recruits on campus? What is the bar passage rate? Free is good, but Third-Tier can definitely limit your options. DH is a lawyer in a medium-sized boutique firm. They only recruit at Tier-1 schools. Period. Even for lateral associates. Big firms will recruit at UCLA interviewing the top third of the class, but a top 5 student at Chapman might not even be able to get his/her resume considered. On the other hand, the local Catholic Tier-3 law school in my home town places very well with local firms. If I had wanted to stay in town, I probably would have taken the nearly full-ride offered to me. However, I wasn't sure so I picked the better school that offered me a 50% scholarship. I live halfway across the country now so it was a good choice. Big law isn't everything. Aside from firms and some of the more prestigious federal agencies (DOJ, FBI and EEOC come to mind), your law school isn't going to matter once you get a couple years out. Christine W ETA--Nonprofits are also notoriously picky about pedigree. Edited August 17, 2012 by ChristineW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMRB Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) I went to a top-tier law school in the early 90's. My experience upon graduation was that graduates from the local schools had a much easier time getting interviews and jobs than big name graduates, regardless of the tier. I was in Baltimore, and students who went to school at night at the small local school got the best jobs - that was just the culture. I wanted to work in a firm and found that there was a strong preference for local graduates that my advisors didn't tell me about in college, even though I had gone to college in downtown Baltimore. I clerked at the state appeals court and then got an offer from a small firm, but later moved to corporate practice and found that my degree had more clout in that world. I highly recommend talking with some local lawyers to find out if there is this type of preference in your area and also having a strong idea of what type of law interests the student - the answer about the culture will likely vary by practice area. And yes, it's a tough world for graduating law students, but there's always room for talent, the world will always need lawyers, and there are some incredibly interesting non-law jobs around for law school graduates. A third-tier degree on a free ride followed by an LLM in tax or a MLS to become a law librarian (if the interest is there) are paths that were not available to me due to cost, but can be very valuable and attractive combinations to have. And as my father told me, once you have that license, you can always hang your shingle and be a rainmaker, so it's not a waste. Edited August 17, 2012 by sbelmar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan in SC Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I am a lawyer. I would not attend law school right now unless it was a first tier school. Period. No way would I attend a second or third tier school, not for free, not if they paid me. There are plenty of lawyers and even the decision to go to a first tier school should be considered very, very carefully. A school that isn't first tier is a total waste of his time. I think this depends where you live. If you want to practice law in my state, you can go to a top 10 school, or the state school. If you want to clerk, you need to go to the state school. It's very good 'ole boy politics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehon Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 What do they want to do with their law degree? What is the local reputation of the third-tier law school? Who recruits on campus? What is the bar passage rate? Free is good, but Third-Tier can definitely limit your options. DH is a lawyer in a medium-sized boutique firm. They only recruit at Tier-1 schools. Period. Even for lateral associates. Big firms will recruit at UCLA interviewing the top third of the class, but a top 5 student at Chapman might not even be able to get his/her resume considered. On the other hand, the local Catholic Tier-3 law school in my home town places very well with local firms. If I had wanted to stay in town, I probably would have taken the nearly full-ride offered to me. However, I wasn't sure so I picked the better school that offered me a 50% scholarship. I live halfway across the country now so it was a good choice. Big law isn't everything. Aside from firms and some of the more prestigious federal agencies (DOJ, FBI and EEOC come to mind), your law school isn't going to matter once you get a couple years out. Christine W ETA--Nonprofits are also notoriously picky about pedigree. :iagree: with Christine and others who have said to really research your options. You simply can't compare someone who graduated law school even a few years ago with today's climate. Many, many newly minted law grads are not working in the field at all, even as paralegals, etc. It's not a matter of hating lawyers or hating law school. It's the reality in many parts of the country and for many areas of specialization. There are simply too many new law school grads right now. So, I would recommend talking to lawyers in the field(s) you think you might want to practice in. I would research areas of specialization where new lawyers have the best chance of being hired/working as lawyers. I would also research the stats for every school I was interested in, especially how many of their graduates starting working *as lawyers* either immediately out of law school or as soon as they passed the bar. I'd also want to know the schools' first time pass rates for the bar exam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 If his dream to work for Big Name Firm, then he can only go to a tier 1 school. He should research a bit what he wants to do with his law degree. There are many, many things he can do besides work for Big Name Firm. There are many areas of law. If he works hard he can still get internships, summer associate positions, unpaid nonprofit or legal aid work, that will get him experience, build his resume and allow him to get work upon graduating. In the current economy though no law school is worth taking out any loans. So, unless he wants to get a specific position for which only tier 1 graduates are interviewed he should go with the full scholarship tier 3 program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) :iagree: with Christine and others who have said to really research your options. You simply can't compare someone who graduated law school even a few years ago with today's climate. Many, many newly minted law grads are not working in the field at all, even as paralegals, etc. It's not a matter of hating lawyers or hating law school. It's the reality in many parts of the country and for many areas of specialization. There are simply too many new law school grads right now. So, I would recommend talking to lawyers in the field(s) you think you might want to practice in. I would research areas of specialization where new lawyers have the best chance of being hired/working as lawyers. I would also research the stats for every school I was interested in, especially how many of their graduates starting working *as lawyers* either immediately out of law school or as soon as they passed the bar. I'd also want to know the schools' first time pass rates for the bar exam. I agree. There have been a lot of news pieces about the glut of attorneys, and I've heard it first hand from some friends as well. There have also been several stories about schools pumping up their stats on how many students are employed...many are not employed as attorneys, but are counted in the statistics as employed. Some schools have also been hiring back their own graduates short term in order to boost their numbers and ranking. Not for the faint of heart, but this story raises many good points. The sentiment is that employment in the field is going to be a long-term issue. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=158361532 from the piece above: New data released by the American Bar Association in June revealed that barely half of those who graduated in law school in 2011 found fulltime jobs as lawyers within nine months of graduation. A separate survey from the National Association for Law Placement in June found the overall employment rate last year was the lowest in 16 years. also "It is not a blip. It is not temporary. It is a permanent, structural shift," said Frank Wu, the dean of the University of California's Hastings law school in San Francisco, which is cutting its incoming class by 20 percent. Do lawschools cook their employment numbers: (also includes info on manipulation of salary figures) http://www.npr.org/2012/01/16/145179563/do-law-schools-cook-their-employment-numbers I would speak to as many attorneys as I possibly could, particularly in any area of law I thought I would like to practice in, and ask them about the current climate, prospects and hiring for different tiers, etc. Edited August 17, 2012 by Momof3littles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASDAQ Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I'm not against law school. I went to law school. My parents were both lawyers. my FIL is a lawyer, my BILs are lawyer, my aunts and uncles are lawyers. We have lawyers coming out of our ears. There are as many American law school places as there are people who can pay or borrow the money for tuition. That means there are many more lawyers produced than there are law jobs. Ever since about 2008, the legal market has been very, very depressed. Does that mean that some people don't still make it? Of course not. It just means that the odds are not in favour of the aspiring lawyer. Also, law is an area with low retention and low job satisfaction. An awful lot of people who thought they were passionate to be lawyers find out that they were mistaken and their passions lie elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyD Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) nm Edited August 17, 2012 by JennyD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 :iagree: with Christine and others who have said to really research your options. You simply can't compare someone who graduated law school even a few years ago with today's climate. Many, many newly minted law grads are not working in the field at all, even as paralegals, etc. It's not a matter of hating lawyers or hating law school. It's the reality in many parts of the country and for many areas of specialization. There are simply too many new law school grads right now. I agree. There have been a lot of news pieces about the glut of attorneys, and I've heard it first hand from some friends as well. There have also been several stories about schools pumping up their stats on how many students are employed...many are not employed as attorneys, but are counted in the statistics as employed. Some schools have also been hiring back their own graduates short term in order to boost their numbers and ranking. Not for the faint of heart, but this story raises many good points. The sentiment is that employment in the field is going to be a long-term issue. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=158361532 from the piece above: New data released by the American Bar Association in June revealed that barely half of those who graduated in law school in 2011 found fulltime jobs as lawyers within nine months of graduation. A separate survey from the National Association for Law Placement in June found the overall employment rate last year was the lowest in 16 years. also "It is not a blip. It is not temporary. It is a permanent, structural shift," said Frank Wu, the dean of the University of California's Hastings law school in San Francisco, which is cutting its incoming class by 20 percent. Do lawschools cook their employment numbers: (also includes info on manipulation of salary figures) http://www.npr.org/2012/01/16/145179563/do-law-schools-cook-their-employment-numbers I would speak to as many attorneys as I possibly could, particularly in any area of law I thought I would like to practice in, and ask them about the current climate, prospects and hiring for different tiers, etc. Absolutely. My friends who graduated in 2004-2008 did ok even if not from top tier schools. Frankly, even friends from top schools have had trouble in the past few years. While the lure of a full ride is big, what he wants to do professionally should guide his choice. It can even be hard for those with new law degrees to get non-law jobs even because employers assume the person will just quit when a law job comes along, not realizing that that there are few law jobs to go around. And the wages firms are paying for JDs to do paralegal work are low , very low. I know more than a few not making any more than a receptionist would be making. And these are not poor students with bad grades or low scores. If he really wants to be a lawyer and only a lawyer he could end up just fine. But go in eyes wide open, not assuming that a law degree will be a sure ticket to a decent paying job. There are many lawyers out there making very little money. The fact that law schools continue to open under these circumstances is a bit of a scam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in OH Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I am a lawyer. I would not attend law school right now unless it was a first tier school. Period. No way would I attend a second or third tier school, not for free, not if they paid me. There are plenty of lawyers and even the decision to go to a first tier school should be considered very, very carefully. A school that isn't first tier is a total waste of his time. :iagree: I am a lawyer, too. The best advice I ever received about which law school to choose was, "Go to the best school you can get into that you can afford." In other words, pedigree matters. Especially in a difficult economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 :iagree: with Christine and others who have said to really research your options. You simply can't compare someone who graduated law school even a few years ago with today's climate. Many, many newly minted law grads are not working in the field at all, even as paralegals, etc. It's not a matter of hating lawyers or hating law school. It's the reality in many parts of the country and for many areas of specialization. There are simply too many new law school grads right now. So, I would recommend talking to lawyers in the field(s) you think you might want to practice in. I would research areas of specialization where new lawyers have the best chance of being hired/working as lawyers. I would also research the stats for every school I was interested in, especially how many of their graduates starting working *as lawyers* either immediately out of law school or as soon as they passed the bar. I'd also want to know the schools' first time pass rates for the bar exam. I agree. My husband and I are both lawyers and we love it, but the market is so depressed right now. The only area I disagree with NASDAQ is if someone could truly attend law school for free (I'm skeptical that it could happen), I think it would be fine. The chances for a law job are low, but it is probably better on the resume than waiting tables, and you could go on to do some other grad school or work in some non-law field. But taking on law school debt is really scary right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Another underemployed lawyer here! I think I would first suggest that the student figure out what her motivation is in going to law school. Burning passion to be a lawyer? No idea what else to do? I think I went to law school because at the time it meant more school (yeah!), putting off the real world (yeah!), and because I thought I would like being a lawyer. I did enjoy law school but boy not for the money I ended up owing at the end of it. If she wants to work big, corporate work in a major metropolitan area...I think she needs to go to the best school she can go to. If she wants to work in public service ...she should definitely minimize the debt burden. If she has a very specific area (like environmental law) then she needs to look at the one or two schools that specialize in that area. It is a tough market right now. She should know that there is no guaranteed big paycheck waiting at the end of the rainbow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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